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The "Problem" with Cho'gath and potential solutions to fix an uninteractive mess. (TL;DR INCLUDED)

Melledoneus··22 votes·2,873 views

#READ THE BOLDED SECTIONS FOR A ROUGH TL;DR

Cho'gath.

Some of us knew him before, some of us didn't. Bottom line, I'm pretty sure all of us know him by now and what he's capable of. Reaching HP thresholds only dreamable by regular tanks while having the same resistances, and abusing tank items to become a tanky, nuking machine with his HP scaling ultimate. However, while the person playing it may have fun being a giant nuke-zilla, it doesn't seem very fair for the other team. So let's target the problem one ability at a time.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/23/Carnivore.png/revision/latest?cb=20160608020152 : Carnivore Whenever Cho'Gath kills an enemy or destroys an enemy structure, he restores 20 - 71 (based on level) health and 3.5 - 7.75 (based on level) mana.

So this is an ability we all have known about for a while. Back in season 4 and 5, this was a big part of why Cho'gath was an absolute nightmare to lane against if you were a burst champion like Zed or Talon who relied on poking their opponent down to finally all-in. However, while this ability seems pretty lackluster for a passive (it doesn't add anything in 1v1 combat or team utility), the fact that a champion with powerful CC who scales into late game has great lane sustain is a bit contrary to how Riot designs late game monsters like Veigar, but we'll get to that.

Overall this passive allows Cho'gath to stay in lane because not only is he granted HP for every kill, but also mana to restore his reserves, allowing him to use his abilities a lot more. He is not too different from Trundle in this aspect, except Trundle does not get mana and is not forced to CS properly to get the heal.

Overall, this ability could use some tuning if anything, but compared with the road ahead this is relatively balanced.

#https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/38/Rupture.png/revision/latest?cb=20160608020307 : Rupture ACTIVE: Cho'Gath causes the target area to rupture after a 0.625 seconds delay, Airborne icon knocking up enemies hit for 1 second, Slow icon slowing them by 60% for 1.5 seconds afterwards and dealing 80/135/ 190/245/300 (+100% AP) magic damage.

So we get to rupture. This ability has always been a bit oppressive in lane (all the matchups I've played as Shen pre-rework were basically 'dodge 100 Q's but if you get hit by 1 you lose'). However, it is a way Cho'gath can catch up to people kiting him. Many may argue that the ability is telegraphed, but in between human reaction time and actual champion speed, this ability is almost guaranteed a landing early on. Additionally, this ability is absolutely crippling, with a 60% slow for 1.5 seconds attached to it after a 1 second knockup. It takes a bit of prediction to actually dodge Cho'gath's Q, and the punishment for getting hit by it (80/135/ 190/245/300 magic damage with a 100% AP ratio) is pretty hefty. With a 9 second cooldown it's not exactly super punishing for missing either, since the mana cost of 60 can easily be restored by his passive.

**Overall, this ability is normally fine if it was a major chunk of Cho'gath's total power budget, but in a moment we will see that is not the case. **

#https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/3b/Feral_Scream.png/revision/latest?cb=20160608020244 : Feral Scream ACTIVE: Cho'Gath roars in the target direction, dealing 75/125/175/225/275 (+ 70% AP) magic damage to enemies in a cone and silencing them for 1.6/1.7/1.8/1.9/2 seconds.

Ah, this ability. The bane of all mobile champions who dare tangle with Cho'gath. Rivens and Fiora's beware, Cho'gath doesn't care.

In all seriousness though this ability has immense power because of its AoE silence. And if you don't believe me when I say that silence is powerful, it was removed from assassins like Leblanc, Talon, and Kassadin because it was incredibly overpowering. While I won't compare mobile burst to immobile... burst...(?) it is crucial to understand that locking somebody out of using any abilities for 2 seconds is absolutely detrimental to them. Now imagine being able to do it without having to aim, and even being able to land it on multiple enemies. The damage on it isn't moot, either, with a decent scaling on AP and good base damage. With a cooldown of 13/12/11/10/9 and mana cost of 70/80/90/100/110 it's not hard to see why this ability is so impactful in lane. Needless to say, it isn't a mindless spam ability AT ALL. In fact, it is very crucial for Cho'gath, especially in some matchups like Riven or Illaoi. However, it is undeniably a large chunk of power in his kit as well.

Feral Scream as a standalone ability is quite balanced, and almost lackluster due to its shorter range. However, when you factor in other abilities it becomes a bit much. More on that in a bit.

#https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/79/Vorpal_Spikes.png/revision/latest?cb=20160608020336 : Vorpal Spikes ACTIVE: Cho'Gath's next 3 basic attacks within 6 seconds have 50 bonus range and launch a volley of spikes in a line, dealing 20/30/40/50/60 (+30% AP) (+3% (+0.5% per Feast Feast stack) of target's maximum health) magic damage and applying a decaying 30/35/40/45/50% slow over the next 1.5 seconds to enemies hit. Vorpal Spikes resets Cho'Gath's autoattack timer.

Now, this ability seems pretty tame by itself. Typical 3 hit passive with magic damage that slows. However, when you factor in the knockup-slow, the silence, and the damage behind it, Cho'gath starts sounding pretty annoying. Not only can he farm up and get his HP/mana back, but he can do it while applying AoE damage and slow to your wave and you if you're near it. If you try to retaliate, he can stop you from using abilities and then knock you up, dealing hefty damage to you in a combo you cannot escape. It seems kind of oppressive for a champion who has infinitely scaling HP. Skip the following quote box if you don't care about Shen.

######But the reason I hate this ability with a passion is because I play Shen. And Shen has one damage ability (E doesn't count, the damage is almost negligible until later on, when it also becomes negligible in most cases), and here it is: https://i.imgur.com/hQRgKeI.png

######Twilight Assault has a minimum of 1% more max HP damage and a maximum of 3% more max HP when we don't consider the higher base damage and AP scaling on Cho'gath's E. Additionally, Cho'gath's E starts with the same cooldown and scales to become EVEN LOWER than Shen's Q by 1 second at max rank. It has no condition (like Shen does with having to pull it through an enemy with a reverse skillshot he can't even control both ways), it has a much stronger slow in both cooldown and strength, it's AoE, it costs less in every way (thanks to Carnivore) than Shen's Q, and, to add insult to injury, it resets his auto attack timer. Boy, I would kill to get that on Shen's Q.

######To be fair, Shen does have a bit extra damage to monsters, a bit extra range bonus on his autos (although Cho'gath gets extra auto range permanently on his ult stacks anyway), and a slight attack speed buff. But it is a worse dueling ability than Cho'gath's E, which is a throwaway ability come late game when it becomes stronger than Shen's Q in every way. Not to mention Shen is meant to be a duelist and is upstaged from the get-go by this oversized fuck. I'm starting to really doubt that Riot believes that Cho'gath is balanced in any way and are putting off his changes even though he can really use a god damn nerf already.

Ok, here's the moment of truth, boys and girls.

#https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2f/Feast.png/revision/latest?cb=20160608020218 : Feast ACTIVE: Cho'Gath attempts to eat the target enemy, dealing 300/475/650 (+50% AP)(+10% bonus health) true damage. Against non-champions the base damage is increased to 1000. If Feast kills its target Cho'Gath gains one Feast stack. Feast can stack infinitely, but only 6 stacks can be gained from non-epic monsters or minions. Each stack grants him 80/120/160 bonus health, with no upper limit, as well as 4.5 / 6 / 7.5 bonus attack range and increased size that stack up to 10 times.

This ability... hoo boy. Where do I even start?

First, this ability belongs on a champion whose other abilities are complete garbage and compliment this ultimate. Kennen's abilities, for example, aren't extremely impactful (annoying, yes, but they lack raw power), but his ultimate makes him a top-tier champion in Worlds and Solo Queue. Cho'gath has a powerful set of abilities to compliment this ultimate, and in no way is that balanced unless the champion has terrible, terrible base stats. Which... is not the case...

Second, the damage on this has no inhibitor or counterplay other than KEEP THAT SH*T AWAY FROM ME. However, considering how Cho'gath has access to item 3800 and other items that accentuate this "Nuke and Refute" play style, not even that seems to be a viable strategy. Now, there is a very good indicator as well that his tank play style is overwhelmingly strong. Let's look at his basic abilities one more time.

Q: 80/135/ 190/245/300 (+100% AP) W: 75/125/175/225/275 (+ 70% AP) E: 20/30/40/50/60 (+30% AP) (+3% (+0.5% per Feast Feast stack) of target's maximum health)

See a pattern? There are some pretty damn strong AP ratios on this guy. Really strong. If he went full AP and played like a slightly beefy burst mage, he could be a serious threat. (You know, exactly how he used to play before) Cho'gath's tanky nuker playstyle is so powerful, in fact, that he forgoes a full AP build to go full tank instead, relying on his R and base damages/E scaling to screw over anything he gets near.

#Potential Solutions

##1. Emphasize the kitable nature of Cho'gath. Cho'gath is obnoxious for having so many ways to catch his opponents. A good way to reduce his reliability is to remove some of his CC and nerf some ranges. Removing the slow on Cho'gath's E would be a good start, and reducing the slow on his Q would also not be a bad idea. Another potential nerf would be making his Q much more telegraphed so that enemies actually have a chance to react to it, and Cho'gath would have to aim it predictively. Another way to make Cho'gath more kitable is make his size come at a cost: Movement speed boosts would be less effective on a larger Cho'gath. These are a few of many ways to create an actual downside to playing Cho'gath, as his reliability is much too high right now.

##2. Make Cho'gath's power curve more appropriate. This means either make his laning phase significantly weaker (less sustain on passive, lower base damages on abilities, higher mana costs, higher cooldowns) or make his late game less ridiculous (lower true damage on ultimate, some options could come from point 1). Overall, make Cho'gath either less impactful in one phase of the game or both phases in the game. He shouldn't be super strong in both.

##3. Slow down Cho'gath's combo speed. A few ideas could be make his cast time on Q higher, make him actually stand still for the entire cast of W, or increase the animation time for his auto attacks. However, the best idea I had was make his R a charge-up ability. The longer he holds R while in range of a target, the more of the damage he can apply to them. This would reward a Cho'gath who has caught his prey and inhibit those who want to press R to win. The way it would work would be that until the full duration of the cast time or when Cho'gath is out of range (maybe)/lets go of R, the damage is proportional to how much of the full duration was charged up. So if it dealt 1000 damage originally, if you held it for 1.5 seconds out of 3 seconds, you only get 500 true damage.

Another idea was to make his R scale like Veigar's ult to execute. That way he will be encouraged to nom down weak opponents and will not be able to one-shot enemies unless he's reached a point that only Vandiril has experienced. The ideas are plenty, but the general idea is the same.

This was my balance post about Cho'gath. I hope I provided a meaningful discussion here, and if I missed anything or made any mistakes, don't be afraid to let me know. I'd like to know YOUR thoughts. And now, to continue tradition, here is a completely unrelated poll.

32 Comments

The Yetii Rider18 votes

First of all, you have no business comparing Shen's Q to Cho'Gath's E, or Shen to Cho'Gath at all.

Shen is a champion whose entire kit needs to be trash because his ultimate is beyond disgustingly powerful, especially in pro play. Shen, Twisted Fate, and several other global presence champions saw ridiculous play in Season 2 and have been gutted since then because of that. The level of power that Stand United grants to a coordinated team is unheard of, and for that Shen deserves to be totally useless otherwise.

Now on to the discussion.

Point 1: Immobile Champions Deserve Good Things for Being Immobile

Cho'Gath is immobile, even compared to a lot of juggernauts. Garen Skarner Udyr Shyvana Volibear DrMundo all have great movement speed buffs to help them close the gap.

Cho'Gath also has relatively poor damage compared to other juggernauts. Darius Nasus Urgot Garen can kill an entire team if they aren't dealt with. But even then, juggernauts as a class have a clear play pattern: kite or die.

You mention this in the OP. No counterplay other than "keep this away from me". I would argue that should be the state of ALL immobile melee champions. Range is a huge benefit in this game. If you suck at kiting, you deserve to die. If your opponent pops Glory, run away. You are capable of doing so. You can Flash, you can use other mobility effects like .90 Caliber Net or Arcane Shift, you can run away. Your team can peel for you. You can stay in the back line like you're supposed to. The burden of not dying should always be placed on the champion who has chosen to build glass cannon.

The only two serious complaints I see against Cho'Gath are A) that his burst is too quick and B) that he is too hard to kite because of Righteous Glory.

My response to that is A) Burst is good for the game, and what do you expect to happen when Riot just removes all of the burst from assassins? We play other champions that still have the burst. And B) Ranged champions have had easy kiting for too damn long. Ever since Randuin's Omen lost the passive movement speed slow, marksmen and mages have been handed defensive tool after defensive tool to try and keep their dumb asses safe. item 3139 item 3157 item 3102 item 3812 item 3046 item 3030 . I don't care. You don't have a turn speed. You have mobility. You have CC. You have a team. If you can't escape a giant lumbering beast running towards you, you deserve to die.

More importantly, one squishy champion dying isn't that big of a deal. I burned an item active and an ultimate and one person died. That's standard for late game team fights. Many other champions are pretty much guaranteed to get a kill with their ultimates in the same way when they're full build. It doesn't bother me at all.

Kaeblen7 votes

Burst is good for the game, and what do you expect to happen when Riot just removes all of the burst from assassins? We play other champions that still have the burst.

give this guy a medal

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

While I agree with his point about Cho, this doesn't make any kind of argument for why burst itself is good, it's just saying assassins lack burst and ADC's do too much burst.

Melledoneus4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WYw0lLG7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-30T23:21:23.423+0000)

First of all, you have no business comparing Shen's Q to Cho'Gath's E, or Shen to Cho'Gath at all.

Shen is a champion whose entire kit needs to be trash because his ultimate is beyond disgustingly powerful, especially in pro play. Shen, Twisted Fate, and several other global presence champions saw ridiculous play in Season 2 and have been gutted since then because of that. The level of power that Stand United grants to a coordinated team is unheard of, and for that Shen deserves to be totally useless otherwise.

Your point is something I completely agree with, except in the case of Shen. Mainly because Riot reworked Shen to fix his issues, the same issues you brought up, but didn't do that. Then they proceeded to nerf almost everything in his kit before finally nerfing his ultimate in a way that did nothing to solve the problem.

Is it really fair to say, then, that Shen deserves to be garbage when Riot had so many chances to fix him and botched it up every single time?

Now on to the discussion.

Point 1: Immobile Champions Deserve Good Things for Being Immobile

Cho'Gath is immobile, even compared to a lot of juggernauts. Garen Skarner Udyr Shyvana Volibear DrMundo all have great movement speed buffs to help them close the gap.

Cho'Gath also has relatively poor damage compared to other juggernauts. Darius Nasus Urgot Garen can kill an entire team if they aren't dealt with. But even then, juggernauts as a class have a clear play pattern: kite or die.

I would agree if Cho'gath didn't have more instances of CC than the average tank. Juggernauts are meant to have very little CC, so it's kind of strange to refer to him as a juggernaut. Additionally Cho'gath has some range over most juggernauts so that's another factor to take in. He fits the bill of battle mage the most, except he has burst on his R.

You mention this in the OP. No counterplay other than "keep this away from me". I would argue that should be the state of ALL immobile melee champions. Range is a huge benefit in this game. If you suck at kiting, you deserve to die. If your opponent pops Glory, run away. You are capable of doing so. You can Flash, you can use other mobility effects like .90 Caliber Net or Arcane Shift, you can run away. Your team can peel for you. You can stay in the back line like you're supposed to. The burden of not dying should always be placed on the champion who has chosen to build glass cannon.

You forget that the burden is on the TANKS of the team to keep threats away from the carries. I don't play ADC often and have never faced a Cho'gath as one. I always feel outshined by Cho'gath when playing tanks because he is a much bigger threat just because his tools and stats are superior for so little effort put into it. Not to mention if I have to blow all my CC on a behemoth running at 800 MS while there are other threats on the team just to keep him from blowing up my carry, it feels just plain unfair. Sure, other juggernauts can do some serious damage. But Darius, Garen, and Nasus have to at least hit my carry multiple times and over a period of time, and can be focused down and killed. Cho'gath just becomes insanely tanky and my carries can't take him down even when focusing him just because he built two to three items and pressed R a bunch of times beforehand, and then proceeds to press R on my carry even after we blow our CC on him. Yes, Cho'gath should be a threat if he closes the gap, but he should have either great offensive power or good defensive power. He should not be an unkillable assassin.

The only two serious complaints I see against Cho'Gath are A) that his burst is too quick and B) that he is too hard to kite because of Righteous Glory.

My response to that is A) Burst is good for the game, and what do you expect to happen when Riot just removes all of the burst from assassins? We play other champions that still have the burst. And B) Ranged champions have had easy kiting for too damn long. Ever since Randuin's Omen lost the passive movement speed slow, marksmen and mages have been handed defensive tool after defensive tool to try and keep their dumb asses safe. item 3139 item 3157 item 3102 item 3812 item 3046 item 3030 . I don't care. You don't have a turn speed. You have mobility. You have CC. You have a team. If you can't escape a giant lumbering beast running towards you, you deserve to die.

As much as I agree on ranged champions being punished at last, this is not the way to do it. Because Riot looks at Cho'gath as an example of how tanks and melee champions are performing and will continue to pander to ranged champions because of it. I'm not going to sit idly by and watch a whole half of the roster rise up over the other because of one outlier. I agree that assassins were better for the game because of the way ADCs are, but if we let Riot keep Cho'gath the way he is there is proof against the argument that squishy, ranged champions are too safe.

Burst also should come at a price. Assassins were squishy and relied on skill to execute their assassinations. Even one-shot Rengar required precise and rapid combos involving animation cancelling that would make a Riven main shocked. Bruisers are a mix of slayers and tanks, taking the middle ground. Tanks forgo damage for durability and CC. So what happens, then, when one champion has the CC and durability of a tank, the burst of an assassin, and the AoE damage of a mage?

We shouldn't look to one champion to be in a state that shows how the game should be like. Instead, we should look to a large-scale power shift from BPS ADCs to their melee counterparts, tanky or squishy, DPS or damage-soaking. That's why Cho'gath is a problem.

More importantly, one squishy champion dying isn't that big of a deal. I burned an item active and an ultimate and one person died. That's standard for late game team fights. Many other champions are pretty much guaranteed to get a kill with their ultimates in the same way when they're full build. It doesn't bother me at all.

There should be some risk when you dive an entire team to kill an ADC. With the shenanigans Cho'gath pulls, there is very little risk because unless you keep him off your ADC (assuming they are a DPS hypercarry and not Jhin or MF) for a while he's going to still be there after your carry. And that's not even considering what the rest of the team might have to follow-up on Cho.

You can argue that Cho'gath brings things to the table we'd like to see in other champions, but you can't argue that he is healthy for the game as a whole.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

"They proceeded to nerf almost everything in his kit".

Everything except the one thing that matters. That being his E hitbox. They buffed his E hitbox, which makes him a better tank. He's a worse duelist and a worse laner but a better tank. I have no sympathy for you. You shouldn't be trying to play a tank like a duelist anyway.

"You forget the burden is on the tanks to keep threats away from the carries."

Excuse me? I have no interest in that at all, and I am a tank one trick. I am an initiator. A disruptor. I fuck with the enemy team and front line. That is not protection, that is man-moding and brawling. Yes, WARDENS need to peel for their team. Vanguards are nowhere near their team usually.

Wardens aren't that common either. Here's a list of them: Alistar Blitzcrank Braum Maokai Shen TahmKench The overwhelming majority of tanks are vanguards. Many team comps don't even have a warden.

Mages have self-peel, many carries have escape mobility.

So your argument is that we should let Cho'gath get nerfed, and remove all of the effective burst we have left in the game. Then we just get ruled over by our ADC overlords with no options. Irelia is about to get reworked (nerfed) as well, and I can't imagine Jarvan IV will go untouched this season. This is not what we should be doing. Cho'gath is a band-aid while we wait for Riot to figure out how to balance marksmen in a world without assassins.

"You can argue that Cho'gath brings things to the table we'd like to see in other champions, but you can't argue that he is healthy for the game as a whole".

Sure I can. Cho'gath is healthy for the game as a whole. The number of hits a champion takes to die is irrelevant. Cho'gath presses a button and if he's ahead and it's late enough in the game, the enemy champion dies. That's fine. That's exactly what Zed, Vi, Ekko and Diana have always been able to do.

Diana is still a bursty tank champion. So is Rengar, so is Akali, so is Elise. I do not care about the feelings of marksmen or mages. The burden is on them to kite effectively, not on tanks to protect them, not on supports to shield them. They are the ones choosing to itemize as glass cannons, and they should be punished for it. You know what good counterplay to this is? item 3026 What happens after that? Cho has no other uses and fizzles out quickly.

Melledoneus3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WYw0lLG7,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-10-31T03:43:38.609+0000)

"They proceeded to nerf almost everything in his kit".

Everything except the one thing that matters. That being his E hitbox. They buffed his E hitbox, which makes him a better tank. He's a worse duelist and a worse laner but a better tank. I have no sympathy for you. You shouldn't be trying to play a tank like a duelist anyway.

I can see where you're coming from, but telling someone to not play Shen like a duelist is like telling someone to not play Yorick like a split pusher. It's a core part of theme that, if not used, makes parts of their kit lackluster or just straight up useless. The hitbox increase on Shen's E was so that his E width matched his actual model width when dashing, because he would bugged on minions (pushed aside thanks to a buggy interaction) and straight up pass through people.

Additionally, Shen has one CC that isn't even reliable. His only defensive team utility he can realistically use in a fight is tied to his spirit sword, which he can't control positioning of, and it lasts only a brief period of time.

Shen is not a traditional tank, as he acts as a pseudo diver with his synergy with TH, and can dish good damage on squishies later on in the game, and oftentimes outright 1v1 them. Why waste such incredible dueling power on one piece of CC and an unreliable as hell null zone? It makes no sense.

"You forget the burden is on the tanks to keep threats away from the carries."

Excuse me? I have no interest in that at all, and I am a tank one trick. I am an initiator. A disruptor. I fuck with the enemy team and front line. That is not protection, that is man-moding and brawling. Yes, WARDENS need to peel for their team. Vanguards are nowhere near their team usually.

In a way, you're still keeping threats away from your carries proactively. By engaging on the enemy before they have a chance to engage themselves, you turn their focus to you and in turn your carry has an easier time entering the fight. Unless, of course, you go in 1v4, in which case that is usually called "intentionally feeding" by a majority of players.

So in a way you are subconsciously doing exactly what I said: keeping threats away from your carries. You may not have an interest in it via conscious thought, but you definitely show it through your playstyle.

So your argument is that we should let Cho'gath get nerfed, and remove all of the effective burst we have left in the game. Then we just get ruled over by our ADC overlords with no options. Irelia is about to get reworked (nerfed) as well, and I can't imagine Jarvan IV will go untouched this season. This is not what we should be doing. Cho'gath is a band-aid while we wait for Riot to figure out how to balance marksmen in a world without assassins.

Or... instead of letting abominations like Cho'gath (who's banned most of the time anyway so he's not there to be the band-aid in most games) roam around and be the poster boy for the "tanks are too strong" side of the argument, we could ask Riot to rework crit so ADCs aren't bursty as all hell unless your name is Jhin.

"You can argue that Cho'gath brings things to the table we'd like to see in other champions, but you can't argue that he is healthy for the game as a whole".

Sure I can. Cho'gath is healthy for the game as a whole. The number of hits a champion takes to die is irrelevant. Cho'gath presses a button and if he's ahead and it's late enough in the game, the enemy champion dies. That's fine. That's exactly what Zed, Vi, Ekko and Diana have always been able to do.

Diana is still a bursty tank champion. So is Rengar, so is Akali, so is Elise.

The difference between assassins and divers like Zed, Vi, Ekko, and Diana, as I stated before, is that they take risks to reach the back line, as they lack the durability that a tank does to sustain team-wide focus. That's why they usually flank or plan escapes: they need to get in and get out. Cho'gath can achieve the exact same thing by running up to an ADC and pressing R while stoneplate is active. No skillshots like Zed Q or Elise E, no combos like Zed R or Ekko passive, and no fucks given. All while the enemy team is wondering what in the actual hell they were supposed to do.

That is the epitome of uninteractive, stale, and one-sided gameplay. While it seems nice to say "Oh, it's been done before by others," you have to remember these were all champions who were nerfed heavily because they were oppressive, even with the weakness of being squishy. Cho'gath does not have that weakness.

Additionally, Diana is durable, yes, but not a tank champion. Bursty tank champions are a rare breed, and the only 3 I can think of are Tahm Kench, Cho'gath, and Galio. Furthermore, Rengar in his stabler assassin days was squishy and built full damage, not tanky. Akali has sustain, but is by no means a tank.

A tank is somebody who can sustain focus fire for an extended period of time. None of the examples you brought up come even close to what a tank is, and that is surprising coming from somebody who plays vanguards, as you claim.

I do not care about the feelings of marksmen or mages. The burden is on them to kite effectively, not on tanks to protect them, not on supports to shield them. They are the ones choosing to itemize as glass cannons, and they should be punished for it. You know what good counterplay to this is? item 3026 What happens after that? Cho has no other uses and fizzles out quickly.

You're talking as if LoL is an anarchy and it's every man for himself. Yes, marksmen and mages should be expected to position correctly. But that does not mean that tanks should ignore their damage dealers and refuse to be the wall that blocks off threats to their role.

In fact, why would you play a tank or a support if you're not going to do what tanks and supports do? Just play a carry champion and at least contribute something befitting your lone wolf ideology.

Because, in case you have forgotten, it's a team game. 5v5.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

You're talking as if LoL is an anarchy and it's every man for himself. Yes, marksmen and mages should be expected to position correctly. But that does not mean that tanks should ignore their damage dealers and refuse to be the wall that blocks off threats to their role.

In fact, why would you play a tank or a support if you're not going to do what tanks and supports do? Just play a carry champion and at least contribute something befitting your lone wolf ideology.

Because, in case you have forgotten, it's a team game. 5v5.

I'm a jungler. People blame me when they lose their lanes. They make bad trades, they move out of position and they get punished by the other laners in 1v1 situations, not by the enemy jungler, and then they blame me for falling behind when I know if I gank it can result in a double for the guy that's ahead. So forgive me if I don't have a lot of team spirit.

As for why I don't play carries, I'm a sadist. I thrive on the satisfaction I get from the enemy feeling useless. I don't want to kill them, I want to lock them down, survive their rotations, starve them out of their own jungle, steal dragons at the last moment. I would rather lose a game where my opponent felt tormented than win a game in 10 minutes.

Miraweave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WYw0lLG7,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-30T23:21:23.423+0000)

First of all, you have no business comparing Shen's Q to Cho'Gath's E, or Shen to Cho'Gath at all.

Shen is a champion whose entire kit needs to be trash because his ultimate is beyond disgustingly powerful, especially in pro play. Shen, Twisted Fate, and several other global presence champions saw ridiculous play in Season 2 and have been gutted since then because of that. The level of power that Stand United grants to a coordinated team is unheard of, and for that Shen deserves to be totally useless otherwise.

Now on to the discussion.

Point 1: Immobile Champions Deserve Good Things for Being Immobile

Cho'Gath is immobile, even compared to a lot of juggernauts. Garen Skarner Udyr Shyvana Volibear DrMundo all have great movement speed buffs to help them close the gap.

Cho'Gath also has relatively poor damage compared to other juggernauts. Darius Nasus Urgot Garen can kill an entire team if they aren't dealt with. But even then, juggernauts as a class have a clear play pattern: kite or die.

You mention this in the OP. No counterplay other than "keep this away from me". I would argue that should be the state of ALL immobile melee champions. Range is a huge benefit in this game. If you suck at kiting, you deserve to die. If your opponent pops Glory, run away. You are capable of doing so. You can Flash, you can use other mobility effects like .90 Caliber Net or Arcane Shift, you can run away. Your team can peel for you. You can stay in the back line like you're supposed to. The burden of not dying should always be placed on the champion who has chosen to build glass cannon.

The only two serious complaints I see against Cho'Gath are A) that his burst is too quick and B) that he is too hard to kite because of Righteous Glory.

My response to that is A) Burst is good for the game, and what do you expect to happen when Riot just removes all of the burst from assassins? We play other champions that still have the burst. And B) Ranged champions have had easy kiting for too damn long. Ever since Randuin's Omen lost the passive movement speed slow, marksmen and mages have been handed defensive tool after defensive tool to try and keep their dumb asses safe. item 3139 item 3157 item 3102 item 3812 item 3046 item 3030 . I don't care. You don't have a turn speed. You have mobility. You have CC. You have a team. If you can't escape a giant lumbering beast running towards you, you deserve to die.

More importantly, one squishy champion dying isn't that big of a deal. I burned an item active and an ultimate and one person died. That's standard for late game team fights. Many other champions are pretty much guaranteed to get a kill with their ultimates in the same way when they're full build. It doesn't bother me at all.

Burst is fine when it comes from champions who are easy to kill in return. It's not fine when the champion bursting you is doing so while building exclusively defensive items.

Salson4 votes

Except champs like Darius Illaoi Urgot have counterplay and sill expression.

Chogath on the other hand has too much power for free.

But even then, juggernauts as a class have a clear play pattern: kite or die.

That pattern sucks, the last 3 introduced/reworked Illaoi Urgot Yorick actually have counterplay. Chogath on the other hand does all they do and more while building full tank.

Ralanr11 votes

Honestly if anything could lose the slow, it’s his Q IMO. His E gives him better chasing an anti kiting power when he’s in melee so it works for him. His Q however gives him way more range than needed which allows him to do some annoying harass.

The slow on his Q is just frustrating. Idc if it was originally there, it works better on his E.

Grab5 votes

{quoted}

Honestly if anything could lose the slow, it’s his Q IMO. His E gives him better chasing an anti kiting power when he’s in melee so it works for him. His Q however gives him way more range than needed which allows him to do some annoying harass.

The slow on his Q is just frustrating. Idc if it was originally there, it works better on his E.

It was. Old cho had slow on Q, but not on his E.

Ralanr3 votes

I know. I’m saying it’s better on his E.

Penns4 votes

I think its fine, Cho doesnt need counterplay imo because he isnt on this list https://i.gyazo.com/10f9ebb3d5ff40db2d57518726a41e6d.png :)

Mannny3 votes

I feel riot attempted to overbuff him to the disgusting state he is currently in now when what he needs is a rework.

Teridax683 votes

While I agree that Cho'Gath could use some adjustments to his current kit and power, there really is no sense in comparing him to Shen. Cho is an immobile tank/fighter who is intended to deal a lot of damage (that's why he has the pure nuke ult), whereas Shen is a) not intended to deal significant damage, and b) a champion with exceptional mobility and ally utility. Of course Cho is going to outdamage Shen, even with just one ability.

With Cho specifically, though, I agree that he has too much sticking power, and I also agree that he could afford to lose the slow on both his Q and his E. Cho I think should always give his opponents the opportunity to run away, and in this respect his Q knockup should be pretty much his only means of closing the distance between himself and his targets. To some extent, Cho shouldn't really have to worry about chasing his targets, and should just get to ravage anything that comes across his path, including minions and monsters, but also structures. The latter aspect of him I think is sort of underdeveloped, and would be a better means of shifting his power around besides just giving him more crowd control, as was done with his mini-rework.

I also think that if Cho needs to have an ability telegraphed, it should be his W, not his Q. Cho's Q already has a 0.625-second delay, and is known for being one of the most telegraphed basic abilities in the game. By contrast, his W is an instant ranged nuke + silence, and whenever it's strong, it turns into this really oppressive poke/trading tool. A common issue in League imo is that whenever a champion can chain crowd control and damage at the same time, they tend to feel less interactive, because there's not much you can do while you're getting killed, and often it just resumes a champion's whole counterplay to avoiding one single ability. This I think is a problem present in Cho'Gath's kit, where his ability to knock up, silence, slow and burst down a target all at the same time basically means that if you get hit by a Q, you're dead. This is also not something I think is fully compensated for by his lack of mobility or attack range, so even if burst on him might be okay, interacting with him shouldn't just boil down to avoiding him and his Q. Conversely, Cho should have more things to do besides fish for Qs and only take action when someone gets caught.

With that said, I think currently one of Cho's main issues isn't so much with his kit, as it is with the items he builds. Gargoyle Stoneplate's synergy with his ult does not feel particularly deep or interesting, even if it both looks and feels ridiculous, and I think the problem comes directly from the item offering raw health on its active, rather than a shield, which would be more appropriate (any sort of temporary health bar should be a shield, not health). Righteous Glory also makes him much better at engaging targets and sticking to them than he should be, and as a result much of his counterplay ends up being lost. This could be helped somewhat if Cho's counterplay didn't purely resume itself to kiting him, though the item itself has proved difficult to balance on many more than just one champion. Simply adjusting these two factors could help both tone down Cho's burst and his sticking power without even needing to address his kit, and I think doing that first would be preferable to nerfing his kit, and then inevitably reworking or removing the items he depends upon.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I'd have to agree; remove one of the slows, and change those two abusable items and he'll be fine again.

Thryale1 votes

wait, what the? Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to put % bonus hp on cho's ult??? That's absolutely retarded! When will riot learn that defensive scaling for offensive abilities is, and always will be, a terrible terrible idea?

I've been gone for a year or so and only just came back 2-3 months ago, so I was confused why ppl were QQ'ing about cho'gath so much. but the fudge man, another 3 hit "active" and defensive scaling for his ult? that's just... C'mon riot! get yer crap together! What's next? Are you gonna make Teemo's E a 3 hit "active" as well? why not throw % hp dmg on his mushrooms while yer at it.

Melledoneus3 votes

We're over the 3 hit passive thing.

We're mostly talkung about the Righteous Glory- Gargoyle Stoneplate- Feast ordeal with Cho'gath on these Boards.

Thryale1 votes

what's gargoyle stoneplate do again? that's a new item to me... and I forget what glory does, but I assume they have something to do with temporary bonus hp for cho's stupid defensive scaling?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Bottom right corner near the "post" button is a picture of a Doran's ring. Click it and you can bring up a list of all the items and their effects.

Short Version: Stoneplate: Gain bonus health and deal reduced damage when activated (True damage not affected). If near a lot of champions, gain more bonuses. Glory: +75% MS towards enemy champions, 75% AoE slow on arrival.

Thryale1 votes

Oh, okay, I knew that you could click that for the icons, I didn't know it displayed the actual stats. It's been a while since I've used it.

as for the items, yeah, stoneplate is def new news to me, but I do remember glory now that you described it. it was still fairly new when I took my break from league.

Neidox1 votes

Buuurn him burn the monster!

Garekk1 votes

I'd say make his ult do magic damage to enemies above 35% life but True damage to enemies below 35%. That way he can still munch low health people but opening a fight with it is a lot less ridiculous for the person on the receiving end.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Make it 15/20/25% and you got yourself a good idea.

Kaìju1 votes

I just don't think Cho fits his fantasy all that well. When I think of a giant monster his Q, E, and passive don't do it for me. His W and R I think work but that's about it. I think Cho's kit should be more about what it is to be the end all be all Titan of the rift. His passive should be a sort of following destruction. Maybe something where walking by enemy units slows them for a second, as if his footsteps were causing earthquakes that put the enemy off balance. His Q can still allow him to catch prey, but with more skill and less instagibbing. Maybe one of his tentacle/spike things comes down on an area and after a .5 second delay is dragged back to him, pulling the first champion it collides with on the way back and damaging minions and others. His W should lose the silence but add probably another slow, since a massive ranged AOE fear would be broken. His E could be a ranged attack, say a small AOE damage spell, kind of like Karthus Q. Maybe he throws something kind of like old kaiju tossing shit around in the movies. And his R I think should do about the same damage, but as a channel, needing to chew his target. That way you can choose to let him devour his target and fight his team, or try to stop him and save your ally. I don't know I started rambling after the Q. I just really like that Q idea.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

"So this is an ability we all have known about for a while. Back in season 4 and 5, this was a big part of why Cho'gath was an absolute nightmare to lane against if you were a burst champion like Zed or Talon who relied on poking their opponent down to finally all-in. However, while this ability seems pretty lackluster for a passive (it doesn't add anything in 1v1 combat or team utility), the fact that a champion with powerful CC who scales into late game has great lane sustain is a bit contrary to how Riot designs late game monsters like Veigar, but we'll get to that."

Um... No? Nasus has lifesteal to get him through lane phase, Veigar used to have a passive to give him more mana regen, Swain (Though not in the same league as them in terms of late game) is a big teamfighter mage and has a mana refund passive. Lots of late game champs have passive or abilities to help them out in lanning phase.

Honestly a lot of your arguments are poor and based solely on how he is now with his recent changes rather than how he's always been.

YuGiHo1 votes

the should cut the range and remove the slow from q. He already had a slow on e and rushes item 3800 So geting into range and keeping on a target is never an issue for cho. If not that then give him a new passive and redo the base values for his ability's, chos passive makes it so that he auto wins lane vs all but the most aggressive champions and if you cant sustain your mana like he does then you have no way to contest him geting to 6 stacks

Jackom11 votes

I agree with your reasoning, but to me the main problem with chogath lies in the fact that his ultimate brings a lot of damage with the simple condition of "get stacks". Imagine if Darius could amp his ult's damage permanently each time he applies full stacks of bleeding, or each time he kills someone with his ult. So that by mid-late game he could use his R at max damage without first applying full stacks of bleeding on the target he wants to kill. Or if Urgot could execute an enemy without him being under 25% health; of course cho's R range is melee but, you know, item 3800

I don't agree 100% when you say that cho's base kit is moderately strong. To me it really isn't.

  • carnivore restore a fixed amount of health, which contrasts with his health stacking element

  • Q is scary enough, but by late game and without investing enough in AP, it's not as strong as it looks. Although, a knockup followed by a slow, given to a supposed juggernaut, isn't a good thing.

  • W is ok to me, the damage isn't scary, and the silence hurts only melee champions like fiora and riven (it's probably bias, but that doesn't annoy me)

  • E is way weaker than it looks. It does % health damage, so it's not going to do much to squishy targets, and it won't do much to tanky targets either, as long as they have at least one MR item. Unless you build void staff, and you'll never buy it.

  • R is a problem when you can flash/r glory to a target and kill it outright.

If cho is going to be a real juggernaut, then his theme should be "get scarier the longer he's in combat", not "rapidly kill a squishy with and ult". I think all his abilities should have some scaling tied to his feast mechanic, but in the end, his overall damage should reach maximum potential only when he's been combat for a couple seconds, and has done things right.

Salson1 votes

You're missing the core problem with Cho'Gath. He does stuff ( tanks, CC, damage) with very low skill expression.

Yes, Yasuo is annoying, so is his playerbase. But at least he has to try to kill you, if you're better than him he doesn't actually do anything. Cho'Gath on the other hand is still tanky, still has empowered autos, still bursts with his ult.

All in all, if Cho needed some kind of mechanic like Darius's 5 stacks of death, or even Veigar's missing health scalling his ult would be completely fine. But it's free, no skill, no counterplay, just brainless point and click burst.

Overall, the champ needs a rework.

Sasogwa1 votes

I honestly feel like the problem with Cho is his E slow. It makes his melee matchups very fine and completely disgusting if he gets an advantage. Honestly, you wouldn't feel like Cho is a huge lane bully yet when you think about it he's going toe to toe with some extremely powerful melee fighters like trundle, who are picked against him only to steal his stats with R in teamfights. And for facing good Cho's, I hate the matchup as Nasus more than I hate Pantheon, which is basically cancer. The fact he can get this melee slow means he can basically all in you everytime you go for CS, and if you can't outright statcheck him it's over. Similar or worse to Darius tbh. Pretty disgusting. The melee slow needs to go so that melees have more agency against him.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

The problem I see with Cho'gath in his current state is that he covers too many roles and too many champions. That buff to his ultimate was way too much (called it). Damage based on Cho's HP on top of him having infinite scaling on it, WHILE BEING TRUE DAMAGE?! Other champions are kept on a short leash for less than half of that. Infact I can think of two perfect examples. Sion's base and scaling HP are low because of his infinite hp. Volibear is kept low because damage based on his HP with his W. Volibear also has to strike targets 3 times before using it, not just click and nuke, AND IT'S NOT EVEN TRUE DAMAGE!

Cho'gath is suppose to be a Battle-Mage Juggernaut, whom can also help peel like a Warden. He's suppose to be immobile and has to build some AP to deal damage. However with items released and a huge buff to his kit, especially his ultimate over buffed, he doesn't need AP. With Righteous Glory and Stoneplate Gargoyle he can cover the Vanguard role also but not lose that much damage thanks to his ult being true damage and ignoring Stoneplate's price.

Cho'gath has too much of Everything, CC, damage, tankyness, mobility through Righteous Glory, true damage to ignore Stoneplate's price. He just power creeped all the way to the top because he has everything and pays nothing for it right now. He is going to need some special attention after the rune update. Since he will have more infinite HP scaling to make him more of a balanced nightmare than he already is.

bronze5pro1 votes

infinite scaling HP true damage and AOE silence great design silver balance team

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