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ADCs are too Lifesteal-independent right now

ProfDrDeath··51 votes·4,079 views

In my opinion, the Marksmen in the bot lane have currently too much of an access to sustain options that are not regular Lifesteal, which contributes to the issue of them feeling like doing too much damage. If ADCs were more relying on Lifesteal for their sustain (for instance, in their third item), this overly high damage could potentially be delayed/not feel as overbearing.

Non-Lifesteal ADC sustain options:

  • First up is Fleet Footwork. Despite its recent nerfs, it is still the most common Keystone on ADCs, and it especially synergizes with the Rapid Firecannon builds.
  • Second is all the sustain from the support position. There's the Relic Shield line, which amounts to a lot of sustain in the end, and gives that sustain option to a class of supports whose weakness normally is a lack of said sustain.
  • Third, and a lot of people don't have this on the front of their mind, is Red Buff. This buffs is usually reserved for the ADC from the midgame onwards. However, it features a really powerful sustain effect that allows ADCs to start every fight with full health, despite not dedicating resources into said sustain.

With these options, specifically itemizing Lifesteal is less necessary, freeing the ADCs up to sink 10k+ gold into offensive stats without having to worry about anything else.

58 Comments

LegitBusinessman24 votes

Teamfights end in one rotation. Lifesteal is just not gold efficient. As an adc you either have full health or you're getting insta-gibbed.

I wish it were not the case, but that's what the game is now.

RainXBlade7 votes

Normally, people would suggest something like, "make life steal items cheaper" to solve this problem. But, that would power creep life steal items, which is bad for the game.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Teamfights end in one rotation. Lifesteal is just not gold efficient. As an adc you either have full health or you're getting insta-gibbed.

I wish it were not the case, but that's what the game is now.

I disagree with this. Far too often, I'll dive the back line in a teamfight and nearly kill the ADC before dying. They're at under 200 health, any stray ability would likely kill them. One would think that forces the enemy ADC out of the fight (or they have to take a risk to go back in), but instead they just have to wait 3 seconds for a shield cooldown to be available, then go in with the shield (in case they do get hit before they lifesteal) and they start attacking again and are full health within a few seconds.

I would like to see that if I dive the enemy back line and nearly kill the enemy ADC, any of my allies can recognize that and flash on them to kill them. Like when the fight has been lost and our support is the lone person running away from the enemy top + adc (fight was 4 for 3), the support can choose to turn on the ADC and finish them, so the enemy team can't get any objective off of the won fight (instead of the top tanking baron or a few towers while the ADC melts them, all the while healing back to full health). Likewise you lose a fight mid, the enemy team's 4 survivors keep pushing down mid. The ADC was almost dead and built no lifesteal, but is always full by the time you respawn. So even though they overstay and have no lifesteal, you again can't one shot the ADC because they somehow healed to full.

There's a LOT of unappreciated value in the sustain that ADCs are getting that they don't need to buy for, and this definitely contributes to the issues people have with ADCs overall power level right now.

SpiritOfOdysseus11 votes

Meanwhile melees get the same lifesteal values as ADCs, but 95% of them don't have crit so they actually get lower values.

You guys should've been around in the early seasons, when lifesteal and spell vamp were so egregious that it was mandatory to carry it

Eedat7 votes

Every single ADC rushed BT first item

Spank the Fox8 votes

Didn’t help BT was a stacking item that also gave more raw AD than IE

saltran4 votes

{quoted}

Every single ADC rushed BT first item

Yeah, when with max stacks it gave me 100 AD.

Champion Skin1 votes

Didn't it also give like 32% lifesteal or something crazy when at max stacks or is that just me not remembering it correctly?

XeroKimo3 votes

It started at 12% stacked to 20%

Champion Skin1 votes

Oh thanks for informing me

And you seem to be correct from what I found if https://lol.gamepedia.com/The_Bloodthirster_(Item) is correct then it seems it was 25% then it was nerfed down to 20% and remained that way for a long time

v1.0.0.136 Life steal reduced to 12% from 15% Life steal per stack reduced to 0.2% from 0.25% Now only loses half stacks on death rather than all of them

v4.10 REMOVED BLOODTHIRSTY PASSIVE: No longer grants bonus attack damage or lifesteal per unit kill NEW BLOODTHIRSTIER PASSIVE: Lifesteal can now overheal, granting a bloody shield that absorbs 50-450 damage (based on champion level). This shield decays when out of combat for 15 seconds. ATTACK DAMAGE: 70 ⇒ 80 LIFESTEAL: 12% ⇒ 15% TOTAL COST: 3250 gold ⇒ 3500 gold

HarrowR2 votes

And then people complain how adcs shouldn't be able to 1v1 like it's a new feature,they were actually better at it before they added dedicated supports. When you had 100 dmg bt that gave you 25 LS,i remember every game getting I.E, 2 P.D. and 2 B.Ts,also both I.E and P.D gave more stats,you would end up with 500 Damage,and 50% lifesteal with 70% crit chance

Executioner1 votes

God, those were the days. I actually loved doing the IE, 2 P.D and 2 B.T back in the day lol. 50% lifesteal with that much crit chance was fucking glorious.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

I was there in the earlier seasons.

And it was infuriating sometimes to play against that Lifesteal, especially at the time first item Bloodthirster with up to 100 AD at 3000 gold was a thing. However, I'd also argue that it was leading to less DPS early.

Lucas Fehrwight1 votes

There is no arguing. It was. In fact, I remember how people used to complain about Cait doing no damage mid game,

Eedat11 votes

Exactly one year ago:

"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE GUT LIFESTEAL!!!!!! DRAINTANKING!!!!!!! ADD GW TO THORNMAIL!!!!!!" -The boards

Now we want ADCs to build it again lol

First, Fleet isn't a crazy amount of healing and is gated by time. Second, relic isn't either. It's practically none outisde of lane. Third, red buff regens 1% HP per second when not in combat. This regen is practically nothing on ADCs. Especially since they're going to be in combat practically all the time autoing waves if they aren't fighting

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Red Buff heals for 1/3/9% max HP per 5 seconds at levels 1/6/11. After level 6, the numbers get noticeable, and after level 11, the numbers get really noticeable.

And looking at games at the highest level, especially in LCK and LCS, no, ADCs are not in combat all the time. At higher levels, they clear the wave (~10 seconds at max) and then have the remainder of that time to use Red's regen.

Eedat1 votes

I was using an average. It's 1.8% per second when fully scaled. It's also only out of combat

Thefrostyviking4 votes

I have to disagree about the sources.

Fleet footwork doesnt really heal any particular amount until really late, relic shield and most support heals are limited early as well and red buff is normally not taken until much later, and its more of enhanced regen than actual healing.

The real source is runes, you can get a free 8% lifesteal from there, get that and sit on Doran's blade and you´ll have 11% for almost free if you are lucky at the time laning ends.

Fleet footwork is priceless because of the movespeed buff, it makes kiting so much easier its hard to even describe it well, more damage is great but its useless if dead.

And honestly, when playing against a tank when not on kog/varus i often find the need to go armor pen on my third item when playing seriously, tanks become much too difficult to handle otherwise.

YumaS2Astral6 votes

{quoted}

The real source is runes, you can get a free 8% lifesteal from there, get that and sit on Doran's blade and you´ll have 11% for almost free if you are lucky at the time laning ends.

If you are talking about the Precision rune that gives lifesteal - are you aware that you need to stack it? And that it is pretty much outclassed by the other rune in the same row that gives attack speed? (Even the tenacity one outclasses the lifesteal one, on champions that don't need attack speed)

Also, another reason why ADCs are pretty lifesteal independent is beacause supports give them a lot of survivability, enough to make lifesteal not necessary.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Not necessarily, I see tons of people in high elo opt for Legend: Bloodline.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I am fully aware that you need to stack it, hence i wrote "if you are lucky at the time laning ends", the meaning behind that being that if you get a good lane off then stacking it fully is not difficult.

The attackspeed rune is 18%, the lifeteal one is 8%......but if you think about this for a moment, how much lifesteal do you actually need? For most marksmen its around 10-15% to be in a good spot.

But if you have fleet footwork and a RFC an entire lifesteal item can become redundant with the bloodlines rune.'

So its becomes the choice of "do i want a 18% attackspeed rune and having to buy a lifesteal item or do i want the 8% lifesteal rune and just whatever item i want instead of a lifesteal item?".

So, if i can get away with it i in 10 outa 10 games prefer to get the heal setup with bloodlines rune and then just grab another damage item instead of a lifesteal one, or a outright tank item if some particular enemy champ is giving me a headache.

So with the heal setup and a AD heavy build or a ruunan´s hurricane i dont basically need any more lifesteal for a long,long time on most marksmen.

And you clearly dont play any marksman champ a lot if you think its possible to get away without any healing or just fleet footwork alone, i can tell you right now, it's completely impossible against any tank with thornmail or any long range mage that pokes a lot.

Hell, its hard to just get through laning against some mage support like Xerath, brand or Zyra without a high healing page and sometimes even a vamp scepter early depending on how good they are at landing shots.

The only time lifesteal isn't needed is when the enemy team doesnt have the ability to ever reach or poke you and they dont have any tanks with thornmail, otherwise its always needed.

For illustrative purposes, i while playing Ashe shooting a rammus with thornmail+ninja tabi+bit of health for items and his W up in a skirmish at 2 items....lets say, IE+Ruunan, can in the time i deal 1/3rd of his health i will have lost roughly 50-70% of mine even with a support like nami healing me or one like Janna giving me a shield.

Marksmen are actually hella fragile, glass cannons even and they have the damage to boot, and while some supports makes it hard to hit them they still explode extremely fast if actually hit.

Thats why so many are so into going fleet footwork+overheal, the movespeed buff makes avoiding damage worlds easier and the barrier generated from overheal helps one endure poke and just survive a lot better.

AirKingNeo4 votes

People don't really get lifesteal nor rush it as ADC anymore. Fleet should be removed in my opinion or heavily nerfed.

I've been saying supports are dumb.

Red buff HP regen is out of combat though.

morris11 votes

Give Lethal Tempo the movespeed from Fleet while Tempo is charging so you can reposition to start a trade and just remove Fleet.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Or remove the heal increase on Crit and make Fleet Footwork more about the MS boost, as the name implies.

Kyovulpes2 votes

So rework it back to it's original state? That would cause then PTA would be top tier again and be just as cancerous as champs like Vayne come back to the meta again and dominate. Honestly the rune is giving champs like Caitlyn Jhin and even MissFortune to thrive I dont really see a probs with that tbh

vgamedude2 votes

They have too much sustain period, mages would kill to have the sustain adcs get even if they had to buy lifesteal items.

Hell any other damage dealer would.

Hópe8 votes

{quoted}

They have too much sustain period, mages would kill to have the sustain adcs get even if they had to buy lifesteal items.

Hell any other damage dealer would.

And adcs would kill to have 300 hp on their damage items

Champion Skin1 votes

item 3072 does have 50-350 shield on it (which is basically the same as HP) when attacking something before a fight starts and they could choose to build it (and it gives 80 AD so it most certainly is a damage item)

The reason mages often build more hybrid HP/resistances + AP items are because base damages and combined with the fact that they don't get as much out of stacking damage items as they don't have as strong multiplicative scaling

And would ADC's really want their damage items to become 800+ gold more expensive in return for gaining 300 hp on their damage items? (since ADC's have multiplicative damage each damage item gives more than the next so quickly getting damage items online is quite important)

Lucas Fehrwight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WVxkgEgR,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2018-03-24T10:52:20.088+0000)

item 3072 does have 50-350 shield on it (which is basically the same as HP) when attacking something before a fight starts and they could choose to build it (and it gives 80 AD so it most certainly is a damage item)

The reason mages often build more hybrid HP/resistances + AP items are because base damages and combined with the fact that they don't get as much out of stacking damage items as they don't have as strong multiplicative scaling

And would ADC's really want their damage items to become 800+ gold more expensive in return for gaining 300 hp on their damage items? (since ADC's have multiplicative damage each damage item gives more than the next so quickly getting damage items online is quite important)

I disagree. That used to be the case. Now, the reason mages build hp is because they will die too quickly if they don't. Also, hp ap items have pretty stats overall (i.e. roa gives 500 hp and 100 ap).

Spoofghoul2 votes

Meanwhile item 3812 item 3046 item 3156 item 3026 item 3139 pretty solid defensive options

Im gonna put this separate since it's good with the shield item 3072

ofc there is still the option of HP on your AD items if you want some hp item 3022 item 3071 item 3078

vgamedude3 votes

{quoted}

And adcs would kill to have 300 hp on their damage items

You mean half a fucking auto attack?

Pretty sure I'd rather be able to auto a minion wave and get half my hp back. It's also not like the HP is just free and it's not like you get free hp anymore especially with the mage changes. Not every mage is building liandrys or rylais.

Hópe2 votes

{quoted}

You mean half a fucking auto attack?

Pretty sure I'd rather be able to auto a minion wave and get half my hp back. It's also not like the HP is just free and it's not like you get free hp anymore especially with the mage changes. Not every mage is building liandrys or rylais.

Actually every mage is building a health item atm so.

vgamedude1 votes

{quoted}

Actually every mage is building a health item atm so.

Flat out lie. Just off the top of my head Zoe doesn't.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

Just saying, the fact Fleet Footwork is the only real option for sustain in keystone other than Grasp which is for Tanks/Fighters is going to always make it dominant on ADCs. The damage on Press/Temp/Conquerer needs to be high to justify avoiding your easy access sustain rune. The only time this season Footwork wasn't taken a lot was when it healed basically nothing. And its similar with Warlord's Bloodlust in old masteries, it was really popular other than when Fervor was overtuned.

Also I'm surprised you don't talk about Legend: Bloodline at all. Old runes you'd take Doran's Blade + Vampirism which'd give you 5% at most. With bloodline + dorans at full stacks you can have 11% lifesteal all the time without investing in lifesteal. And the page itself gives AS so its not like you're lacking on offensive stats for skipping Alacrity. When 5% was the highest amount of lifesteal you'd have if you went IE/ER + Zeal Item, you actually felt compelled to buy lifesteal based damage items. Now you can just pick a single rune and have your mid-lategame lifesteal covered whlie Doran's Blade covers your early game. You don't even need Footwork if you wanna pick this thing up, if you nerf Footwork this thing just becomes mandatory.

Snowman Arc2 votes

It's not about the sustain, it's just that teamfights right now are won or lost based on a pick. If the casualty is not the ADC, then you don't need to heal back up. If it is, then you probably got caught out, and any amount of lifesteal wouldn't turn the tide of that battle.

But I still see it being crucial, especially against teams that have some poke. Being able to heal from a jungle camp is crucial at times, also having the Mercurial Scimitar is also crucial, which offers some lifesteal as well.

Hexs Fortune2 votes

In my experience roaming jungles and laners exhibit more of a threat than the enemy adc when it comes to early game damage.

Lolman9781 votes

I still go out of my way to build Bork AND Bloodthirster on Xayah

Yet end game I still do 1000 damage on two autos + W

Saezio1 votes

I think the real issue is the secondary tree being the tanky one. The extra health+bone plating + the %missing hp heal on damage is just too much paired with Overheal/Bloodline/Fleet Footwork. MAYBE just MAYBE its time to remove dolans lifesteal and make adc need some skill to lane again. Now even if they drop to 25% after a failed gank they can just sustain it in 2 waves. But rito doesnt think so considering they just added CHRYSALIS. Which is an ADC rune IN THE DAMN TANK TREE. They should make the Tank rune bonus be x% BONUS HP so the adcs don't abuse it so much.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

I think the real issue is the secondary tree being the tanky one. The extra health+bone plating + the %missing hp heal on damage is just too much paired with Overheal/Bloodline/Fleet Footwork. MAYBE just MAYBE its time to remove dolans lifesteal and make adc need some skill to lane again. Now even if they drop to 25% after a failed gank they can just sustain it in 2 waves. But rito doesnt think so considering they just added CHRYSALIS. Which is an ADC rune IN THE DAMN TANK TREE. They should make the Tank rune bonus be x% BONUS HP so the adcs don't abuse it so much.

And then all you would see is long sword + pots or boots + pots since doran's blade would be a complete joke of a starting item

Attticus Finch3 votes

{quoted}

I think the real issue is the secondary tree being the tanky one. The extra health+bone plating + the %missing hp heal on damage is just too much paired with Overheal/Bloodline/Fleet Footwork. MAYBE just MAYBE its time to remove dolans lifesteal and make adc need some skill to lane again. Now even if they drop to 25% after a failed gank they can just sustain it in 2 waves. But rito doesnt think so considering they just added CHRYSALIS. Which is an ADC rune IN THE DAMN TANK TREE. They should make the Tank rune bonus be x% BONUS HP so the adcs don't abuse it so much.

Which ADCs are you aware of that take resolve tree secondary? They almost universally take precision+sorcery

Spank the Fox1 votes

It’s not that I don’t want or need lifesteal (I toss between Alacrity and Bloodline a lot) but the fact we need two zeal items and IE to do damage, then a LW to deal with the tank, then Stopwatch/GA to survive dives. Lifesteal is often tertiary or the game is over.

xXCairoKingXx1 votes

its called sustained damage, are you saying assassins should have lifesteal or vamp wouldnt make sense

ProfDrDeath3 votes

No?

I am saying that ADCs should have more incentives to go for bought Lifesteal. For instance, Red Buff's healing could become melee only (or stay at 1% for ranged champions regardless of level).

xXCairoKingXx3 votes

{quoted}

No?

I am saying that ADCs should have more incentives to go for bought Lifesteal. For instance, Red Buff's healing could become melee only (or stay at 1% for ranged champions regardless of level).

Many melee champions also use lifesteal, how would that be fair. Fiora for example usually has more lifesteal than any adc.

SooFr0sty1 votes

She's a melee adc sooo...

Bern1 votes

Actually, you're ignoring the biggest source of free-ass sustain: Legend: Bloodline.

Free 8% LS at full stacks? yespls. Still sitting on your DBlade? Nice 11% LS total.

6Sfool1 votes

I'd rather see ADC's not itemize heavily into sustain. If these sources mean don't I encounter an ADC that heals 500 health twice a second, then let them be.

Trias0001 votes

I've always wondered e.g. why Vayne doesn't rush Blade of the Ruined King anymore.

Vyr Thirku1 votes

Not to mention nearly every marksman I see takes the 8% lifesteal run anyway. That + Fleet Footwork + Second item Rapid Fire Cannon means every adc is just full health every 4 seconds.

Blakiepug1 votes

Yeah I entirely agree with this post. Especially Fleet Footwork I feel is simply too strong.

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