Why does Jinx's minigun allow stacking on towers?

ModCaptainMårvelous·May 10, 2015·51 votes·3,540 views

doesn't get headshot stacks, nor can she proc them. doesn't get extra damage or ricocheting axes on towers. doesn't get quiickdraw reduction on towers (I think, not entirely sure) can't three-hit a tower for an AA boost. has her passive ignored on towers. doesn't get stacks on his AA modifier. The list goes on.

So why does Jinx, who arguably has one of the strongest stacking AA modifiers with her Q, get to build stacks on towers and turn them to swiss cheese. (Yes I'm aware her passive is for destroying towers/kills but that shouldn't mean she can make towers her bitch at pretty much every stage of the game.)

61 Comments

EndlessSorcererMay 10, 201540 votes

Jax and Volibear can stack their attack speed passives on towers as well. Their passives are far more comparable.

IceKingChernobogMay 10, 20152 votes

Voli can actually use his Q on towers too

SEKAIMay 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Voli can actually use his Q on towers too

Because it's an AA mod so it's meant to be like that, much like how Garen's Q, Nasus's Q, Hec's E or whatever can damage turrets.

IceKingChernobogMay 10, 20151 votes

Jinx only gets AA out of her Q passive so they're not gonna do anything about it. I just wish towers had more health though

TastyDragonMay 11, 20151 votes

They did at one point. They also had more resistances. But then suddenly the demand arose for things that were faster, more intense, with more pressure for all players... as well as there being displeasure that playing defensively until an advantage or misstep can be exploited against the opposition, AKA "turtling", was a viable strategy for when one team got WAY too far ahead.

So now we have towers that even a support, when unchecked, can mow down in a couple seconds with a minion wave and at least ten levels. There is no more "I just need a moment". It's "do it now or lose that tower, whether you can afford to abandon your previous task or not"

IceKingChernobogMay 11, 20151 votes

it's kinda sad

thinking manMay 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Jax and Volibear can stack their attack speed passives on towers as well. Their passives are far more comparable.

Those two aren't ranged.

CenturosMay 10, 201520 votes

Neither are Vi and Riven, both listen in the OP.

DurzakaMay 10, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Jax and Volibear can stack their attack speed passives on towers as well. Their passives are far more comparable.

What this guy said.

A stacking attack speed self-buff. You dont compare apples to oranges. You compare apples to other apples.

Ulquiorra995May 10, 20158 votes

First, because of that Q she has the lowest AS amongst all Marksman (except maybe Trist, but I'm not sure for her and she definitely is not in a good place). Meaning without that Q she'd be very slow at taking out structures - and mind you, one of top reasons having a ranged ADC is a must is reliable, ranged siege. Take that away from her, and, well... It would not end up good.

Besides, that's not really comparable, since all the abilities listed are much different.

Caitlyn - There is a reason she does not stack on towers. You don't want her building stacks on a tower then popping you for 150% damage with range that long. Draven - He still refreshes duration on Spinning Axe when attacking a tower. Ask yourself - do you really want him to have perma +80% AD when attacking a tower? Graves - Yes, he gets quickdraw reduction on towers. - AS boost comes attached with a %HP damage and armour shred. Do I even need to clarify why this should not work on towers? Riven - Would be too strong considering how often it's up and how much damage it deals. Kennen - I don't have an argument for him, honestly.

Now, if you compare it with other passive effects that trigger on successful AAs:

Jax - Gets AS stacks on towers. Volibear - Gets Frenzy stacks on towers. Diana - Moonsilver blade works on towers. MasterYi - Double strike works on towers.

See the pattern?

DurzakaMay 10, 20151 votes

This guy right here.

I like you.

Although, i still dont fucking understand why Draven gets to refresh his Spinning Axe hitting a tower, but Caitlyn doesnt get headshot stacks. Feels like those 2 are very relatable to me.

NarasimhaMay 11, 20151 votes

Although, i still dont fucking understand why Draven gets to refresh his Spinning Axe hitting a tower, but Caitlyn doesnt get headshot stacks. Feels like those 2 are very relatable to me.

Draven's a lot more reliant on his Spinning Axe than Caitlyn is on her headshots. It would a pretty harsh blow to Draven to lose his axes just for sieging a tower, whereas Caitlyn can still build up and keep stacks on other targets.

DurzakaMay 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Draven's a lot more reliant on his Spinning Axe than Caitlyn is on her headshots. It would a pretty harsh blow to Draven to lose his axes just for sieging a tower, whereas Caitlyn can still build up and keep stacks on other targets.

So make him keep catching them. He shouldnt get to maintain them for free is what im saying.

NOHRIAN SKUMMay 11, 20151 votes

Actually, she did before. They found that combined with her range, it was oppressive to lane against when she just stacks her headshots on the Tower, and then use it on the cowering enemy beneath the tower. So they took it off in Patch 3.07

DurzakaMay 11, 20151 votes

Yes, i already know that, i played then.

So why does Draven get to keep his axes without needing to catch him?

Critmaster GarenMay 10, 20156 votes

no idea. the entire champion doesnt make sense. someone at riot said, lets make a champion who deals damage like a melee carry at "short distance", or can hit q to deal aoe damage with 700 range like twitch on his ult.

and then lets give her a mobility passive, a dozen kiting/chasing tools, and an aoe nuke. because logic.

is there seriously one ad carry who could duel jinx head on without blowing his ult? even draven needs to move between auto attacks to deal similar damage. jinx can just sit in place with minigun mode and probably hit him twice between catching axes. never mind, that she would just snare him down so he would lose them.

why is this champ still allowed to exist in this obviously broken state? her win and pick rate is through the roof.

WhislaMay 10, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-10T07:17:18.367+0000)

no idea. the entire champion doesnt make sense. someone at riot said, lets make a champion who deals damage like a melee carry at "short distance", or can hit q to deal aoe damage with 700 range like twitch on his ult.

and then lets give her a mobility passive, a dozen kiting/chasing tools, and an aoe nuke. because logic.

is there seriously one ad carry who could duel jinx head on without blowing his ult? even draven needs to move between auto attacks to deal similar damage. jinx can just sit in place with minigun mode and probably hit him twice between catching axes. never mind, that she would just snare him down so he would lose them.

why is this champ still allowed to exist in this obviously broken state? her win and pick rate is through the roof.

Caitlyn Lucian KogMaw all have really fun times with Jinx. As it stands shes in the best state when it comes to ADCs, clear weakness and strength no real escape other then doing her job. Shes a fun champ to play and ahrd one to master, and her big thing.. is attack speed. so she makes plenty of sense all the way around.

Critmaster GarenMay 10, 20158 votes

{quoted}

all have really fun times with Jinx. As it stands shes in the best state when it comes to ADCs, clear weakness and strength no real escape other then doing her job. Shes a fun champ to play and ahrd one to master, and her big thing.. is attack speed. so she makes plenty of sense all the way around.

i call bullshit on cait and kog. they might have a slightly upper hand during the lane phase, but jinx team fight presence is larger than of those two.

come midgame, shes gonna outshadow them by a large margin. both in pushing power and champion damage.

Rew711May 10, 20153 votes

I honestly don't like Jinx . I don't like her passive giving up to 130% bonus AS in stacks.

Though KogMaw gets more initial AS, his bonus only goes up to 30%.

In fact, Jinx is the only one who is allowed so much free AS with such a nice kit to boot.

AuryielMay 10, 20158 votes

Have you ever looked at Jinx's base AS? A lot of her mini-gun's bonus AS is just her catching up to everyone else. At 525 range. On an immobile carry.

Let's compare her to other late-game oriented carries at level 18

Ashe Known mostly for her amazing utility and yet she still has a WHOPPING 1.1 base AS at level 18. KogMaw 1.16 with a range + on hit steroid Vayne 1.1 with tumble, silver bolts and her ult's bonus AD and stealth AND self peel Jinx 0.731

Jinx also has the lowest base AS of all of them, meaning she scales worse with attack-speed than those other 3. In fact, Jinx only overtakes all of those guys when she has at least one stack of mini-gun (the first one grants half the total attack speed so it's the most important one). Is Jinx's AS too high at early levels? Maybe. Now that's something worth discussing.

Jinx has many strengths and also glaring weaknesses. Her AS is also most definitely not free because to use it you actually have to put yourself at risk of being dived on which is her main weakness.

SpecterVonBarenMay 10, 20151 votes

And Kog doesn't get any of that bonus until level 13 because his Q isn't worth taking a point into until you have to.

Ariel the CruelMay 10, 20155 votes

Jinx has the lowest base attack speed in the game. her minigun passive gives her the highest.

Personally, I don't mind the passive. I just think it should take longer. Double the stacks maybe?

Rew711May 10, 20151 votes

I thought that once, then forgot about it and never asked if this could be.

WolfBVMay 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-10T08:00:20.269+0000)

i call bullshit on cait and kog. they might have a slightly upper hand during the lane phase, but jinx team fight presence is larger than of those two.

come midgame, shes gonna outshadow them by a large margin. both in pushing power and champion damage.

Bruh, you asked for adcs that could kill Jinx in a 1 v 1 duel, not team fight presence.

TheRakkunMay 10, 201517 votes

She's not broken, her kit is perfectly fine, problem is her numbers, she's a bit overtuned.

Rand0mH3r0XMay 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-10T07:17:18.367+0000)

no idea. the entire champion doesnt make sense. someone at riot said, lets make a champion who deals damage like a melee carry at "short distance", or can hit q to deal aoe damage with 700 range like twitch on his ult.

and then lets give her a mobility passive, a dozen kiting/chasing tools, and an aoe nuke. because logic.

is there seriously one ad carry who could duel jinx head on without blowing his ult? even draven needs to move between auto attacks to deal similar damage. jinx can just sit in place with minigun mode and probably hit him twice between catching axes. never mind, that she would just snare him down so he would lose them.

why is this champ still allowed to exist in this obviously broken state? her win and pick rate is through the roof.

Draven gets an attack speed reset when he catches axes. He can consistantly raise his attack speed, deal the bonus ad damage and CC Jinx and out-damage her immediately. I'm not sure you know how Draven fully works, but I think he counters Jinx very well. Graves is another good counter to Jinx because of his smokescreen and Jinx's lack of a dash/dodge ability.

Critmaster GarenMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Draven gets an attack speed reset when he catches axes. He can consistantly raise his attack speed, deal the bonus ad damage and CC Jinx and out-damage her immediately. I'm not sure you know how Draven fully works, but I think he counters Jinx very well. Graves is another good counter to Jinx because of his smokescreen and Jinx's lack of a dash/dodge ability.

jinx just has to throw her mines onto the spot where his axe lands, and he loses the bonus.

imo even draven wouldnt outduel her.

Rand0mH3r0XMay 10, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-05-10T08:08:27.492+0000)

jinx just has to throw her mines onto the spot where his axe lands, and he loses the bonus.

imo even draven wouldnt outduel her.

Now that's when skill comes into play. Saving that extra axe instead of having two of them is the remedy to that problem.

Penta PenguinMay 10, 20152 votes

All it takes is one critical static axe and you lose the duel, Draven sometimes doesn't even need to catch the first axe.

GamersEyeMay 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-10T07:17:18.367+0000)

no idea. the entire champion doesnt make sense. someone at riot said, lets make a champion who deals damage like a melee carry at "short distance", or can hit q to deal aoe damage with 700 range like twitch on his ult.

and then lets give her a mobility passive, a dozen kiting/chasing tools, and an aoe nuke. because logic.

is there seriously one ad carry who could duel jinx head on without blowing his ult? even draven needs to move between auto attacks to deal similar damage. jinx can just sit in place with minigun mode and probably hit him twice between catching axes. never mind, that she would just snare him down so he would lose them.

why is this champ still allowed to exist in this obviously broken state? her win and pick rate is through the roof.

Mobility Passive that only procs when she kills someone, 2 kiting tools that either make her stand still or has a big delay, and an AoE nuke that only works if they're almost dead anyway.

And plenty of ADC's can duel Jinx. Yeah, late game she can do whatever she wants but that's what a hypercarry is supposed to do. And she can do that to turret's because that's part of her identity, whereas the other champions mentioned have no reason to hit turrets.

AnonagonMay 10, 20154 votes

I think its fine that it stacks, since lots of on-hits and stacking buffs (like Jax's passive) work on towers, but I think that even for a champion designed to be a tower shredder Jinx kills towers way too fast. The next closest thing is Trist with her Q + E, but that doesn't even keep up with Jinx despite the fact that Trist had everything else completely gutted for that E to exist.

qetzelMay 10, 20151 votes

Trist had everything else nerfed because she was "OP" before the E change which would have been a buff.

IcyPepperMay 10, 20152 votes

Because her base AS is one of the lowest in the game.

She's reliant on that Q for dps, especially taking towers. Without items, at level 18 Jinx has the fourth lowest base AS of the game.

And besides, taking into account her passive alongside her Q, I don't think Riot is going to change her from being a tower-killer. It's probably why they nerfed her ultimate (although it doesn't change much if you don't use it point blank range, so it's more like a love-tap than anything else) instead of that.

If anything, I'd say her Q shouldn't have the splash crit outside the main target (since it's still an autoattack). It's her waveclear, yes, but it's not like Caitlyn's Q can crit either. That's a change I'd like, only to make it fair.

AtheosisXMay 10, 20152 votes

The bigger question to me is why she gets her speed burst after destroying a turret. It's rather silly if you ask me.

Penta PenguinMay 10, 20155 votes

Because she lives for destruction, it gets her excited, the reason is right in the name, come on dude

AtheosisXMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because she lives for destruction, it gets her excited, the reason is right in the name, come on dude

Meh, don't care about the name of the ability. To me it just feels a tad too strong to give her the speed boost off of blowing up turrets.

Critmaster GarenMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Meh, don't care about the name of the ability. To me it just feels a tad too strong to give her the speed boost off of blowing up turrets.

i find it much worse, that it triggers off random assists after she threw one or 2 rockets into a fight.

imo it should only ever trigger if she kills a target herself. she has enough damage inbuilt to do so.

AtheosisXMay 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-10T19:48:56.580+0000)

i find it much worse, that it triggers off random assists after she threw one or 2 rockets into a fight.

imo it should only ever trigger if she kills a target herself. she has enough damage inbuilt to do so.

Yeah I agree with that too. Overall it feels like it triggers way too often off of way too many things, and it tends to make her ability to wipe out a team after a bad team fight way too strong. All I know is an ADC who is played as much as she is should not also have the highest win rate of any ADC. Those are some big bright red flags popping up if you ask me.

Hyrum GraffMay 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WU7sAzef,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-10T19:48:56.580+0000)

i find it much worse, that it triggers off random assists after she threw one or 2 rockets into a fight.

imo it should only ever trigger if she kills a target herself. she has enough damage inbuilt to do so.

I feel like that would make it too weak, and too much like Draven.

What if, whatever the last thing she attacks, gets marked. She gets the MS boost if the marked thing dies.

So it doesn't matter if she gets the killing blow or not, only if she's focused on killing that particular target.

ULTRAF0RCEMay 10, 20151 votes

perhaps if they implemented a similar thing to that of Katarina involving champions and slightly lowered the movement speed bonus for towers while increasing it for inhibs and nexus it would work.

Solidair3May 10, 20152 votes

Part of her design is being a crazy pusher. Her passive promotes aggressive tower pushing and fighting. (hence the time limit on how recently she interacted with a tower, fight, etc.)

Penta PenguinMay 10, 20152 votes

Tristana does it even better than Jinx, who cares?

All of those champions are already very strong and don't need to be tower busters. Jinx is actually not very strong without team-mates to back her up. Tower Buster is a reasonable power level for Jinx so she does it by stacking her passive on towers. Also it's really not as strong as you think until later towards lvl 6+ and with items.

jdeMay 11, 20152 votes

yeah but jinx trades off with NO mobility accept for her passive

DrakylonMay 10, 20151 votes

The thing about Jinx is that she doesn't even need to risk going into minigun form. Her 700 range AoE autoattacks (that, for some reason, deal 110% damage) work just fine until she can get that first kill, and the 10 mana cost isn't going to be a problem come mid-game. She can both siege and melt towers, something no other ADC can do except Tristana (whose kit does basically nothing else).

JustMyBassCannonMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

doesn't get headshot stacks, nor can she proc them. doesn't get extra damage or ricocheting axes on towers. doesn't get quiickdraw reduction on towers (I think, not entirely sure) can't three-hit a tower for an AA boost. has her passive ignored on towers. doesn't get stacks on his AA modifier. The list goes on.

So why does Jinx, who arguably has one of the strongest stacking AA modifiers with her Q, get to build stacks on towers and turn them to swiss cheese. (Yes I'm aware her passive is for destroying towers/kills but that shouldn't mean she can make towers her bitch at pretty much every stage of the game.)

Caitlyn has longer base range and higher base/scaling AS. Jinx can either have higher AS and shorter range, or barely longer range and lower AS. Oh, and Caitlyn has controllable burst mobility.

Draven's axes do refresh on the tower, they just don't bounce and deal nearly 200% damage to towers. Think half-a-fucking-second before you write.

Graves' E CDR does not apply on towers, and Jinx's AS steroid doesn't have a dash attached.

Vi's a bruiser with an AA reset that does apply to towers, and she often buys Iceborn/Trinity.

Riven's passive basically gives her the ability to deal 150% of AD with her basic attacks. Add the fact that she has a % Total AD multiplier and can reset her attack timer multiple times, and she would decimate towers faster than Jinx could dream.

Kennen's passive wouldn't help him against towers.

Jinx has an advantage that some other champions do not. Other champions have advantages that Jinx does not. Fancy that, it's like the entire game is balanced around champions having different strengths, like a fucking MOBA or something.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 11, 20151 votes

nunu gets stacks from autoing turret. You gonna freak out cause he can do it?

Yeah I hate the new broken adc's like graves lucian and jinx as much as anyone else. But that doesn't mean you just go removing mechanics because you decided others shouldn't. If an adc like jinx thats immobile is hitting your turret with a short range version of a double form ability.. Then ITS YOUR FAULT for letting that item freely with no punishment.

Pick cait into jinx and shit on before level 6. Problem solved.

DUDE BROMay 11, 20151 votes

XinZhao

Chromatic EagleMay 11, 20151 votes

Isn't Jinx meant to take down towers quickly? Granted, with Tristana now, I think that part of her should be changed, but maybe she should lose attack speed or mobility when destroying towers?

Annonymous CobraMay 11, 20151 votes

Yeah bud, you're comparing ON HIT effects as opposed to direct buffs to the champion from using an auto attack. Different category, so different results.

FistOfSharkieshaMay 11, 20151 votes

I don't agree with OP's logic but I do agree it's overkill. Jinx has one of the strongest most very kits of any ADC. Huge range/huge dps steroid, snare, slow, global execution, and is one of the easiest ADCs to get fed with because of her passive.

There shouldn't be a champion who can poke your hp to shit with her huge range, force you out of lane/kill you, and take your turret in 10 seconds.