I'm actually legitimately want an answer from Riot about Coin in solo queue

chipndip1·Sep 19, 2017·21 votes·1,593 views

Like...do these guys REALLY think coin's a healthy item for solo queue in its current state? Patch after patch goes by and this thing still has no word on even the acknowledgement that "Hey, maybe doubling/tripling the gold gen of the other two items is a LIIIIIIL BIT extreme?" Like, how long will this keep going on without even a whisper of a word on the item? Is this actually the standard we're looking for?

Like, just cause no one else knows where the real issues are doesn't mean I don't. I want answers.

41 Comments

Rathar DashingSep 19, 20175 votes

I believe the reason they gave for its power is that it's only used for gold/mana regeneration, and has little to no combat stats even when fully upgraded. Spellthief's line gives extra AP and poke damage, and Relic Shield has healing, makes CSing easier, and gives great tank stats.

Not trying to give any opinion here, just trying to parrot what Riot said when they buffed Frostfang.

bleufromageSep 19, 20174 votes

Oh so you must be the guy riot answers to. Thats cool.

chipndip1Sep 19, 20172 votes

Obviously not, but why is no one even close to upset about coin as they are to so many other things in this game atm?

WinterwingsSep 20, 20171 votes

Two words : Ardent Censer

Once ppl found out how strong it is all the whining passed over to it and Coin is now only brought up by folk who have a bit more attentive look upon current balance...

Daedric EtwahlSep 20, 20172 votes

You're not the only one. I absolutely hate how they're absolutely ignoring the problems with coin. I recently switched back to Spellthief's as a Sona player because I despise how useless Coin Sona feels in lane and it frustrates me how I can chunk out the enemy Janna or whatever and she still keeps up with me.because the gold gen is so ridiculous.

I get if they want Coin to be the item with the strongest gold gen (even though I disagree due to its completely passive playstyle) but the issue still stands that it's too much. Had a jungler the kther day tell me that I was building "the wrong item" as Spellthief Sona. This should not be.

Blue MystifiedSep 19, 20172 votes

spell'sthief just doesn't feel rewarding. I play lulu a lot, and when i go spellthief i barely managed to scrape up 800g by my first back for sightstone, and that's usually including an assist or two. Whereas, with coin, I easily have 1-1.5k with maybe 1 assist. it's unbalanced, and it's shameful that there's a blatant correct item to take. Fortunately, my poke really suffers from taking coin- there is a noticable decrease in damage. Perhaps accentuate that more if you aren't going to make spellsthief give more gold.

flibitydooSep 20, 20172 votes

the issue is that there's a bunch of really dumb interactions with tribute passive that riot has let settle into balance.

aka, champs that can really, really easily trigger the tribute, sometimes multiple times

morg pressing w malz press e brand doing anything in some cases it's a forced synergy like bard/lulu autos will trigger tribute twice.

compare this to someone who actually has to work to make tribute work, like karma or nami, where you have to land autos you have to land abilities; there is no free ticket to getting your gold.

and it's because of these super easy triggers that they can't really make it rewarding, because if they made it rewarding then all those super lazy tribute activators grow way out of line.

But there is a simple solution.

In pre-season the new thunderlords replacement works by limiting triggers to once per spell. aka you can't just cast a single dot effect and get 3 hits auto-triggering thunderlords. in order to actually get all 3 hits to satisfy the condition you need to actually outplay your opponent and actually combo them. If they could take what ever effect they did to make that new thunderlords and put it into spellthief's tribute passive, where it will only trigger once per spell, then there wouldn't be this stupid disparity between champions and usage would be a lot more skill oriented and the item as a whole would be much healthier.

But for now we're stuck in possibly the worst arrangement for support items where the passive one for some reason generates the most gold than the one that actually meant to encourage healthy and interactive gameplay.

VekknaSep 20, 20172 votes

They already nerfed tribute by adding a delay of ~1.5 seconds before it can be triggered again.

Athenes LuluSep 20, 20172 votes

The only thing I remember was half of boards literally begging Riot to buff coin the moment it got reworked and when it required people to go out and collect coins themselves.

They listened, and look what we have now.

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

People said the quest reward sucked. Riot fixed the quest reward by giving it 3 quest rewards. (increased pick up range, gold on kills/assists, MS for allies to you)

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

AbyssphereSep 20, 20171 votes

It... always had three quest rewards.

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

Fair

All SkillzzSep 19, 20171 votes

all i know is they ruined frost queen for me on mid ez, i was rushing it an generating around 1500g by 20-25 min mark. now it will give 0 gold untill completely finished cause the fucking last hit pentalty goes up to 100 seconds max before i could clear a wave go back to base an get 3 stacks by time i get to lane for an easy 45g.

InfernapeSep 19, 201716 votes

That's the intention. It's not meant to be used on mid laners.

All SkillzzSep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's the intention. It's not meant to be used on mid laners.

but they didnt buff anything about it besides add cdr to the fang. like i can just go coin mid now if i wanted

Daedric EtwahlSep 20, 20171 votes

The cdr for frostfang was the buff. They explicitly said though that midlaners tend to poach spellthief's if they aren't careful which is what they're trying to avoid.

Mysticman89Sep 20, 20171 votes

Ok, but you only get the coin drops if you fail to last hit, so you'd get less gold overall if you did that.

KlydeFrogSep 19, 20171 votes

noob ...coin also doesnt have a passive gold per10sec gain liek the other 2 items.....

It Hertz When IPSep 20, 20172 votes

The second tier of it does, and if you start item 3301 item 1006 (which works better than taking pots on healers, since Coin's passive nature means you eat less poke than usual) it's only 365g to upgrade. That's maybe a few minutes into laning.

KlydeFrogSep 20, 20171 votes

umm it doesnt . read frost queens and face of the mountian. +2 gold per 10 sec. talis man does not have that. your confusing the possible chance of getting more gold...if all your doing is looking at that it has way less gold gain then frost or face....

Ariel the CruelSep 20, 20172 votes

I just checked the [forums] item list. All support income items grant 2 gold per 10 seconds.

RankOneUgandaSep 20, 20171 votes

its too strong. janna is getting as much gold as junglers lmao

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

If you don't perform WELL...like PRETTY DAMN WELL, I'm straight rivaling or getting more gold than you if I got coin.

Automated RivenSep 20, 20171 votes

I am all for Coin staying the same and other gold gen items being buffed to match it IF the flip side is that support items are balanced with that income in mind. The support should have her build cost the same as anyone else if she is getting the same gold. And they shouldn't be 4000% gold effecient either.

Ariel the CruelSep 20, 20172 votes

When support [role] gains laner level income, supports [champion] cease to exist. Everyone and their Grandma Warwick will flock to the income stream and push them out. This is what happened in pre-season 4 when these items where first introduced.

When you give a role that ability to scale, those that scale well will take it over.

Automated RivenSep 20, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WOc1qA1n,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-09-20T07:57:18.797+0000)

When support [role] gains laner level income, supports [champion] cease to exist. Everyone and their Grandma Warwick will flock to the income stream and push them out. This is what happened in pre-season 4 when these items where first introduced.

When you give a role that ability to scale, those that scale well will take it over.

Thats fine. If you change supports to actually be relevant.

Ariel the CruelSep 20, 20171 votes

Improving their scaling increases the risk of supports [champion] taking solo lanes and/or nerfing their early game.

Riot absolutely does not want the former, and the latter would push them further out. Again, Pre-S4. Riot introduced "support scaling." They gave speed modifiers AP ratios and improved the scaling of heals and shields, then gutted the base effects until it required hundreds of AP to reach the old values. This was Riot trying to make supports function on laner level income. But at the end of the day, you were choosing between +100 shield/heal or +300 damage. This is why Janna was the only regularly played support during that time (Queen of peel doesn't need much gold). So Riot reeled back the support [role] income. (But left "support scaling" alone.)

Automated RivenSep 20, 20171 votes

Ya. But the problem is ATM that coin generates gold at almost double the speed of other support items. While I don't have a problem with the gold gen the other items should have a reasonably similar gold generation. Even if that means support items need to be buffed slightly so that they don't go crazy and end up full build 25-30 minutes in. Otherwise coin needs to be dialed back.

HammermancerSep 20, 20171 votes

here's a funny one what if we attached more items to summoner spells with special effects, while the support items might be useful, maybe a special upgraded ignite or flash on some already existing items.. like modified zhonyas or something would be more valuable than the upgraded sums on the support items

RainfallSep 20, 20171 votes

riot games low key wants to keep some supoorts conpletely broken so that players pick this god forsaken role.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 20, 20171 votes

Coin is a trade-off. Its rewards are arguably the shittiest out of the three (Janna's passive 0.5, a mana and gold coin on assist, and slightly larger pickup radius. Pathetic all unto themselves, barely qualifiable as a passive for an item), so it has the best gold generation (and is the only one you can use passively) to make up for it.

Shield gives you a shield that regenerates out of combat, lets you shield yourself and an ally, lets you help your ADC CS, and helps in waveclear.

STE/FQC gives you bonus damage on spell cast, a solid burst of speed, consistent mana regen, and AP.

Both of these items have better stats and quest rewards. Coin just gives you more gold in a passive lane.

However, both shield and STE give you more gold in kills and assists. Not because they actually generate more gold, but because they help you get kills. Shield keeps your ally healthy, so that they are less likely to die, and better able to trade. STE does bonus damage on proc, meaning you're more likely to win trades.

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Coin is a trade-off. Its rewards are arguably the shittiest out of the three (Janna's passive 0.5, a mana and gold coin on assist, and slightly larger pickup radius. Pathetic all unto themselves, barely qualifiable as a passive for an item), so it has the best gold generation (and is the only one you can use passively) to make up for it.

How is that "The shittiest reward" when there's THREE REWARDS? It literally gives me as much gold as a laner so I can build actually relevant items, rather than concentrating power on my Sightstone where it's not needed. To boot, it helps my teammates dodge and rotate better. Why do people STILL push this stigma of "Coin's QR is bad"?

STE/FQC gives you bonus damage on spell cast, a solid burst of speed, consistent mana regen, and AP.

Honestly, STE is the worst line in solo queue and you're trying to paint it like it isn't.

Both of these items have better stats and quest rewards. Coin just gives you more gold in a passive lane.

In ANY lane.

However, both shield and STE give you more gold in kills and assists.

At this point I've concluded you don't know what you're saying.

All SkillzzSep 20, 20171 votes

i can say any laner who gets it to 650g and starts a team fight gets rich as hell, anytime i used coin on my low lvl acc during lvl i just upgraded to medallion and left it even with something like 50 cs if i got enough assists or we had enough team fights i could easily reach 5-6 items on something like jinx/ashe in no time.

RookPusherSep 20, 20171 votes

If coin doesn't have better generation then why take it?

Also, you're building it on supports...why complain?

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If coin doesn't have better generation then why take it?

Why not make a better reason to take it? We changed dragon from a gold generating machine, as well as removed certain items from the game, because putting THAT much emphasis on gold generation/power farming is never good for the game. Coin is basically a support's version of power farming items/mechanics, and it's wrapping up solo queue's meta in it.

Also, you're building it on supports...why complain?

Because I blatantly HAVE to. Why would I take STE? Cute damage before I get out-scaled?

YerroFeverSep 20, 20171 votes

it looks like the coin is the most favored support item right now. It regens mana and decent amounts of gold. I'm actually seeing fewer frost?

XenomancersSep 20, 20171 votes

I just Ban Soraka at this point. Absolutely broken with coin.

Fools HesltateSep 20, 20171 votes

They're going to keep coin in a good spot for the same reason they've allowed Soraka and Janna to be top picks for literally years now.

It's a good crutch for low-elo players.

Kai GuySep 20, 20171 votes

Well, I know meddler Talked about Riot looking into adjusting Preseason gold income and exp. He touched on support gp5s but no clear details on what their intent is. this was from August. "Looking at gold/XP as possible pre-season projects Speaking of possible work we're also starting to look into some secondary pre-season projects. The big focus of pre-season gameplay wise will be runes, and changes like balance adjustments to champs and items to compensate for the impact runes has. Pre-seasons and mid-seasons are also the best times to do various systemic changes that can be pretty disruptive at other times of the year however. We'll therefore be looking at gold and XP acquisition, some examples of possible directions. First step will be figuring out what definitely needs changes, rather than just being something to investigate. We'll then look at what it's feasible to get done in time without sacrificing needed work on runes. Some, or possibly all of these projects will not ship, so extra important to emphasize here this is visibility on things we're investigating, not a promised set of changes: XP gain - Jungle XP in general, XP from specific camps (Raptors start especially), XP reliability (how big a difference between a successful and an unsuccessful game should there be/is there?) Gold - Degree of gold that comes from inherent GP10, impact on support income from Bandit removal, degree to which gaining map control and then just farming lanes and both sides of the jungle may be over rewarding non risk taking play"

If you don't already Chipndip I recommend you keep an eye on Dev corner and PBE rather then the Gameplay section. I hope this proves helpful to ya.

Edit, found a quote from the 2nd most recent quick though, they are still looking into gold and Exp. "Ardent has changes on the PBE, those are still being worked on. XP and gold income's being looked at for possible pre-season changes, no details yet though. No current plans for Knight's Vow, will probably see where things land post pre-season and assess again then."

chipndip1Sep 20, 20171 votes

If I could kiss you...I wouldn't, but I'd be pretty excited to talk to you.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Edit: Went and IMMEDIATELY saw a post on the new runes. Maybe I'd blow you a kiss or something...

Kai GuySep 20, 20171 votes

How about a high five? I'd just leave it to Kat to be blowing folks kisses. [katarina-love] its kind of a shame how much folks don't use the dev boards. Meddlers pretty active in his posts and next one should be Friday. If your of a forgetful nature he updates his twitter on posting so you can get a notification that way. https://twitter.com/riotmeddler

My momma always told me my ability to copy and paste publicly available information would serve me well, seems she was right with her oddly specific life advice.