why are there 4 different ADC crit core items with movement speed on them?

notice me Sin pi·Oct 7, 2017·68 votes·2,988 views

Or even a better alternative question for rito: why do so many ADC core items have zeal as part of their upgrade?

Sure, i can understand having movement speed on it, as that is supposed to be its niche.

But why do also have movement speed on them? What's even worse is that the movement speeds from each item are stackable with each other. It makes gameplay against ADCs very unhealthy when they are allowed to outrun melee champions and kite endlessly for a mere 2600g.

Movement speed from the 3 core items should be removed. Zeal should be removed from their build path and replaced with another item if it's necessary in order to remove the movement speed.

67 Comments

KhristophorosOct 8, 201735 votes

ADCs have the lowest base movement speed so it's part of their "weak early - strong late" scaling

which I know, doesn't exist right now. But that's the idea behind it.

Best princess EUOct 8, 20172 votes

they don't have the lowest they have one of the lowest

janna has 320 base ms unmounted kled has 280 ms

JJI744Oct 8, 201726 votes

You know as well as well as I do those are both poor examples. Unmounted Kled being a special case of being slow when running, and Janna having low base since she always has her own passive effect.

Nanuk PihoqahiakOct 8, 20173 votes

Low base movement speed hardly matters when a lot of the ADCs that have been relevant zoom around with movement speed increases or dashes. Examples:

Lucian - Jhin - Vayne - Tristana. There's more, but these four are the most relevant currently. The big outlier is Twitch, but he's broken for entirely different reasons.

KhristophorosOct 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angus The Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WMohovzT,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T12:56:53.849+0000)

Low base movement speed hardly matters when a lot of the ADCs that have been relevant zoom around with movement speed increases or dashes. Examples:

Lucian - Jhin - Vayne - Tristana. There's more, but these four are the most relevant currently. The big outlier is Twitch, but he's broken for entirely different reasons.

And they still manage to be less mobile than most melee champions

xelakerOct 8, 20175 votes

Ashe Caitlyn Jhin Jinx Kalista Varus Xayah KogMaw all lack super dahes (so help me god if you wanna come up in here and say cait's net is a good dash in the manner you are talking about) or movement speed that doesn't require a prerequisite, i.e. jinx needs an assist or kill. you could maybe argue kalista since she can kite well, but the point is there's lots of immobile adc types as well.

5000000000000000Oct 9, 20172 votes

Kalista is pretty mobile, although a single dash may be shorter than most other dashes in the game.

LordGeovanniOct 9, 20171 votes

It gets her over a wall thats a dash

KnoyleOct 8, 201712 votes

Doesn't Kled also get faster than when he was mounted if he is trying to run an enemy champ down?

woodvsmurphOct 8, 20172 votes

There's plenty of others besides those 2. Many mages aren't exactly speedy, and they also don't get more than 1 movespeed item in their build.

woodvsmurphOct 8, 20173 votes

very simple fix - make the movespeed flat movespeed and/or make it lost upon taking damage - recoverable after 3 or 4 sec of not taking damage. tanks get movespeed items, but either can't control how/when it turns off (righteous glory), or lose it upon entering combat/taking damage (deadman's plate). If there were more parity in adc's losing movespeed for the same reasons that tanks and bruisers lose it - or tanks and bruisers not losing it like adc's don't - this would alleviate SOME of the imbalance we have right now. But as-is, only champs with multiple dashes like akali can really stick to an adc long enough to kill them without 1-shotting (which we all know is highly unlikely) - other champs get off their initial engage and damage, then get perma-kited and drain tanked. And that still wouldn't be the biggest issue if they could actually focus other targets and kill them off before dying, but they aren't allowed to - they will just die before killing anyone because adc's get all the damage without paying the price anymore like they used to.

notice me Sin piOct 9, 20171 votes

"weak early, strong late" design is completely fine as long as they are interactive in all stages of the game. The problem arises when ADC gets too much movement speed for immobile melees to do anything about it if kited properly.

XonraOct 9, 20171 votes

There are a lot of "ideas" that fall flat in practice, but that doesn't mean we should just keep them around until the game is flat out broken before it gets fixed.

KaìjuOct 8, 201718 votes

Because if they didn't immobile ADCs would be a lot worse. You should try kiting out champions with deadmans as an ADC like Ashe without the move speed.

Edit: For those who don't understand, Ashe can't kite out most champions if they have some sort of move speed steroid on top of Deadmans such as Garens Q, Skarners W, Mundo Sadism, Fiora R, Gnar to a degree but he needs Mallet for W, Teemo W, Karmas Defiance, and some others. Ashes slow is not nearly as strong as you think it is unless it's maxed out and being used on a champion that doesn't have some sort of move speed steroid or gap closer. But don't take my word for it, go try it.

MordepoolOct 8, 20175 votes

The point of Deadman's Plate is to get to your target. If you can kite them while they have Deadman's that proves the item needs a buff/ ADC needs a nerf. since it's not filling it's intended purpose.

Zero Skill TankOct 8, 201722 votes

The point of DMP is to make it EASIER for juggs to get to ANYONE, not to GUARANTEE access to BACKLINE or to make kiting IMPOSSIBLE.

iamthegoatofwarOct 8, 20177 votes

Err...doesn't ashe's passive help with that though?

DuskDaUmbreonOct 8, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Err...doesn't ashe's passive help with that though?

Ashe also is in the lowest regular tier of movement speed (only unmounted Kled is lower) to compensate. And not everyone has Ashe's passive.

...In fact, she's the only one with it.

kile147Oct 8, 20173 votes

Unless you build Frozen Mallet, then everyone has nerfed Ashe passive.

The Yetii RiderOct 8, 20174 votes

Ashe's W slows and being slowed causes Dead Man's stacks to stop gathering.

KaìjuOct 8, 20171 votes

Yes however you should still try it rather than assuming anything. There is a reason at level one even with her passive Ashe can't chase down a lot of champions.

The Yetii RiderOct 8, 20172 votes

I agree, that's why my second comment (broader to the thread overall) states that marksmen need move speed to help them kite.

However, I do need to point out that A) Dead Man's Plate is not even a popular item at the moment / B) Because of her passive anyone who isn't an idiot gets Randuin's Omen as their armor item against Ashe / C) Kiting is more about running away than it is about chasing people down. Ashe has her ultimate to chase someone down.

notice me Sin piOct 9, 20171 votes

ADCs shouldnt have movement speed effect from zeal items more than once tho. Given current ADCs' base movement speeds, i think it would rather be a better idea to buff that by 5 instead and instead make the bonus movement speeds from zeal items more limited, if ADCs really do need that extra movement speed.

A side benefit of this would be ADCs being able to return to lane faster, making the game slightly less snowbally at bot lane and ~~ironically~~ giving the melees at top lane slightly more control over the game, provided adcs dont take over top lane.

KaìjuOct 9, 20171 votes

And that I could probably love with. I would take the zeal move speed nerf if they got a base move speed buff. Also, what's the average end game move speed of most fighters, bruisers, and asassins? I normally end about 404 or so.

Warlord ScrapOct 7, 20178 votes

Because its not enough adcs have range on their side. They need to be as fast or faster than the melee champs.

Ariel the CruelOct 8, 20177 votes

MS is an considered a defensive stat for ADC's. Kiting and Life steal are their primary defensive metrics, according the the ADC class update.

. . . Along with everything else they got during and since the update. (>_>)

notice me Sin piOct 9, 20171 votes

Rito needs to realize that nerfing their late game defensive stat [movement speed] would potentially make ADCs more balanced and interactive [zombie-brand-facepalm] immobile melees not being able to reach enemy adc before getting blown up is hardly interactive and very unfun. ~~still fun for the ADCs doing the kiting tho~~

Ariel the CruelOct 9, 20171 votes

Honestly, if ADC's defenses were truly limited to just MS and Life steal, it wouldn't be so bad. Riot has mobility creeped the game far enough that almost everyone can reach the ADC at least once (Ezreal and Kalista not included).

Need Gold 4 TentOct 8, 20176 votes

Ah, when the only way to get movespeed was stacking red double swords. Pepperidge farm remembers. MasterYi item 3117 item 3046

sky blowerOct 8, 20176 votes

ADC needs MS to kite, that' why zeal items give MS. In fact, even with that MS tanks and juggernauts can easily get to ADC with item 3022 item 3071 item 3742 and item 3800 . Remove MS would just make kiting impossible

SnowplosionOct 8, 20174 votes

item 3086 has MS .

PePsiLemoNNOct 8, 20174 votes

? That's like , the only thing you SHOULDN'T complain about when saying ADC's are OP lol

PheobosOct 8, 20174 votes

i feel like it would not be a bad thing if they were to revert item 3085 to its old state. Before it build out of item 3086

flibitydooOct 8, 20174 votes

item 3087 item 3094 have it for the same reason item 3285 has it

they have that energize effect that builds up for walking around

Runaan's only has movespeed because they made it build out of item 3086 which is the primary crit+attackspeed item. Runaan's used to build out of item 1043 back when the bow only gave attackspeed, could not be built out of smaller components and had no on-hit damage and that was also a time when runaans gave like 90% attackspeed and only saw niche use on specific champs like teemo, kayle and varus. Many players complained about it for years that runaan's was a dead item because of it's lack of crit chance back then when compared to other attackspeed options. (and it was considered a dead item since none of those champions were even seeing play) and so then they changed it so here we are with the modern runaans.

The thigh guyOct 8, 20173 votes

if you do that they are going to start building frozen mallet and we will be in the same damn boat. or they'll all that grabbing a phage item

SanKakUOct 8, 20172 votes

I actually think this is a logical question that doesn't have a good answer. Personally, I think Riot should change up some of the critical strike items. People find it frustrating dealing with high mobility, high damage champions. Whether it's fair or not, it's frustrating.

The Yetii RiderOct 8, 20172 votes

Marksmen are supposed to be able to kite, move speed helps them kite.

AirKingNeoOct 8, 20172 votes

Because all zeal items and even hurricane have always had movement speed?

Iota ThetaOct 9, 20171 votes

Runaan’s didn’t have it prior to becomin a zeal item. It used to be pure attack speed with the side bolts building out of recurve and 2 daggers

AirKingNeoOct 9, 20171 votes

Except you had 70% attack speed which isn't very long to pause movement to auto.

Iota ThetaOct 9, 20171 votes

While true...it’s not actually giving movespeed like your original statement.

JackMcSnipeyzOct 8, 20172 votes

Because they dont buy all of them, they buy 2 max or they will have no damage. Regardless, i think riot made them with the intention of players only picking 1 zeal item but now the RPC+Statik is too strong and you take no hit from buying both of them. They should make the zeal items passives unique IMO and it would fix a lot of these 3 item powerspike problems

TheGoomyGamerOct 8, 20172 votes

I think they should have a unique passive: Zealous or something so the ms doesn't stack, with phantom dancer having more movespeed than the others.

TotalJerkOct 8, 20172 votes

Because it's counteracted by ADCs having the lowest base Movement speeds in the game.

CherilynOct 8, 20171 votes

Because they all build out of a item 3086 . What would you even replace it with? A item 1018 ? Cloak of Agility doesn't give the attack speed. Right now item 3046 and item 3085 would need to built out of 3 item 1042 + . item 3087 and item 3094 would need to built out of 2 ++ item 2015 .

Makes the build path way too complicated. We need a cheaper zeal without the movement speed stats.

notice me Sin piOct 9, 20171 votes

yes, they all build out of zeal. And zeal doesnt necessarily need to be replaced for some of the current zeal items; even just making the movement speed on the zeal items unique would do the job.

Iota ThetaOct 9, 20171 votes

Runaan’s could lose the crit and go back to the old style of recurve bow + 2 daggers. Right now all the items overlap too much outside the passives and runaan’s currently allows them to hit multiple targets without really losing out.

CodyXSavageXOct 9, 20171 votes

Hey now assassins are pretty hard to counter as an adc this “balances” the game don’t ya know

DeathBurstOct 9, 20171 votes

"Why are there 5 different Fighters items with AD+HP on them?

Or even a better alternative question for Riot: why do so many Fighters core items have Jaurim's First or Phage as a component?

Sure, I can understand Sterak having AD+HP on it, as that is supposed to be it's niche.

But why do Trinity, Cleaver, Titanic and Frozen Mallet also have AD+HP on them? What's even worse is that the AD+HP from each item are stackable with each other. It makes gameplay against Fighters very unhealthy, when they're allowed to close the gap on ranged champions thanks to all that health and still do tons of damage once in melee, for a mere 2600g."

Yeah, sure, I totally agree with you buddy...

But like, do you have a real argument in there somewhere? We get it, you don't like MS on ADC. But if you don't give us a real reason, it's nothing more than your opinion. And no, "ADC can endlessly kite with just one Zeal item" is NOT a real reason... -_-'

(Oh, psst, before you call me a dirty ADC main that's only defending their role, you should check my profile ;) Just a friendly advice.)

notice me Sin piOct 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

But like, do you have a real argument in there somewhere? We get it, you don't like MS on ADC. But if you don't give us a real reason, it's nothing more than your opinion. And no, "ADC can endlessly kite with just one Zeal item" is NOT a real reason... -_-'

(Oh, psst, before you call me a dirty ADC main that's only defending their role, you should check my profile ;) Just a friendly advice.)

{quoted}

"Why are there 5 different Fighters items with AD+HP on them?

Or even a better alternative question for Riot: why do so many Fighters core items have Jaurim's First or Phage as a component?

Sure, I can understand Sterak having AD+HP on it, as that is supposed to be it's niche.

you do have a valid argument, but i feel that the comparisons are not exactly compatible; ADCs' main stats are AD and AS, and fighters' main stats are AD and HP. Comparing ADCs' not-a-main-stat [movement-speed] with fighters' definitely-main-stat [AD&HP] are not exactly a good comparison.

But why do Trinity, Cleaver, Titanic and Frozen Mallet also have AD+HP on them? What's even worse is that the AD+HP from each item are stackable with each other. It makes gameplay against Fighters very unhealthy, when they're allowed to close the gap on ranged champions thanks to all that health and still do tons of damage once in melee, for a mere 2600g."

it's not that unhealthy if you think about it; high HP can still be poked down. High melee damage can be mitigated on the players' end by kiting or just simply running away, not to mention all the CC creeps in current season 7 league. Movement speed combined with range, however, is unhealthy because range allows them to stay safe from CC (both soft and hard CC) ~~unless enemy is also ranged~~ and movement speed makes keeping that range too easy.

{quoted}

And no, "ADC can endlessly kite with just one Zeal item" is NOT a real reason... -_-'

i admit i exaggerated just for upvotes, but even then multiple instances of bonus movement speed from multiple zeal items, at some point, becomes uninteractive for the receiving end and therefore unhealthy.