"Current 10 ban system is designed to prevent permabans on some champs"

notice me Sin pi·May 20, 2017·288 votes·7,702 views

if a champ is getting permabanned despite the playerbase being able to ban only 10 out of 134 (7.4%) champions out there, then it is a problem with the champion design, not the ban system design

rito fix pls

EDIT: since some were curious, adding in where rito explicitly tells us http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/competitive/10-bans-regular-play-coming-soon FAQ: "doesn't this mean some champions will be banned every game?" Answer: "Hopefully no; this was part of the design decision into allowing duplicate bans overall... We will be keeping an eye on the champs most likely to be permabanned across all tiers, and will make changes if necessary."

211 Comments

Hella KaiserMay 20, 201740 votes

in a near future

"with the new 10 ban system, lee sin reached 200% ban rate, being banned by both team in every single game. Because of that, we're reducing the bans to one per team. only two bans now."

"even with only two bans lee sin has 100% ban rate. we're gonna remove the ban system."

"lee sin now has a 100% pick rate. we're happy now."

Crede777May 20, 201713 votes

"We have now decided to disable the ability to ban Lee Sin."

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMay 20, 201732 votes

But how else will they sell skins for a champion if they're perma banned?

notice me Sin piMay 20, 20179 votes

u've got a point

Sexy Jack RabbitMay 21, 20173 votes

Suddenly those Yasuo reverts make sense

Fed by Snu SnuMay 20, 201728 votes

What a sad state you have to be as a company to practically admit that you have to scew the statistics in order to not take action to your favourite waifus and husbando champions.

VelgamMay 20, 201719 votes

134 champs, if the same 10 champs are banned every game it's an issue with the champs. my predictions of perma banned champs: LeeSin Yasuo Riven Fizz Fiora Ahri Caitlyn Camille Warwick Zed

MyrkrvaldyrMay 20, 20177 votes

Riven, Fiora, Ahri, Camille and WW are rarely banned in my case.

IGotScuttleCrabsMay 20, 201710 votes

Ahri will become a common ban. The others I doubt. I feel Graves Jayce will join the near perma ban list

DoktorKaiserMay 20, 20176 votes

I never understood why people hate Zed, he is hard countered by both CC and Zhonyas, hell untill few months ago even QSS destroyed him. Also I never found WW to be too annoying unless you 1v1 him or its early game, he feels shitty late game. I agree on the rest and I would add Vayne to the table.

SalsonMay 20, 20173 votes

He has a good 1v1 in the midlane, and people would rather ban a champ than rely on the jungler.

JorenciceMay 20, 20175 votes

Agreed. Shit I beat a zed mid last night on AP janna.

You know that champion that does almost no damage.

Simply had my jungle gank a couple of times

Arsenic SulfurMay 20, 201713 votes

AP Janna deals damage. Support Janna doesn't. Either way it's an easy match-up because you are Janna, queen of the cockblocks and ruiner of the fun.

I may be a little salty about Janna.

The 2nd HorsemanMay 21, 20173 votes

Anyone who tries to do anything is salty when they see an enemy Janna

InstaPoppyMay 20, 20174 votes

Just look at what zed has in common with the other frequently banned champions mentioned above, they are mobile and good in blowing up single targets. Most people dislike that about them. cc'ing them is often not that easy unless you have a point and click ability. And zed kinda forces enemy's to go zonyha or ga to not die against him. But those are just the reasons i can think of.

DeadUnbornMay 20, 20179 votes

The reason people hate playing against yasuo, riven, lb and fizz is for 3 main things:

Insane amount of damage early levels
unfair amount of mobility with very accesible disengage/damage mitigation 3)Can zone you out because as soon as you enter their "danger zone" they can engage on you without little to no retaliation and blow you up

Crede777May 20, 20174 votes

The only thing I don't like about Zed is his insanely easy ability to last hit under tower.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 20, 20174 votes

meh, i dont see camille, ww, or zed, becoming perma ban. They might be banned every few games but i doubt they'd be permabanned.

LankPantsMay 20, 20171 votes

On the current patch I could see Zac sneaking in just off of his powerlevel. I also think Xayah is a pretty solid ban, she really does seem a little insane right now. I'd also expect Yi, Lulu, Graves and Vayne to be up there.

As for champs on your list who are unlikely to amass large ban ratios, I'd say Camille unless she's buffed, Caitlyn, Ahri and WW aren't that likely to see that many bans.

MasziiMay 21, 20172 votes

Cait is permabanned in high elo lol

Emerald FangMay 20, 201712 votes

I don't think people understand how this prevents permabanning. The teams will be more hesitant to ban "OP" champions because if the OTHER team bans these, it's a wasted slot for the first team. If I am using this system, I may think "oh, the other team will likely ban Yasuo/Lee/Lucian etc.". Therefore, I won't be banning any of those champions so I don't waste my bans. Instead, I will pick bans that focus more on our team and its counters. If we have 2 or more tanks, I will be banning Vayne or Fiora. If we have an all-AD team, I'm banning Rammus or Malphite. Assassins on our team? Bans on Kayle, Annie, or Lissandra.

By doing "blind banning" it allows for some of these classically "op" champions to not be banned as much due to anticipation of the other team banning them. Is that a good thing? We'll see; it hasn't come out yet.

PureSilvrrMay 20, 20172 votes

But, people could think that "i think theyre gonna ban Lucian so I'm gonna leave him open, but if I leave him open they might think the same thing also, so I better ban him."

MarshbouyMay 20, 201711 votes

Annoying=/=op Zed was at a 75% banrate for some time after substantial nerfs that hit him really hard. How will you get data on what to fix on a 100% banrate champion?

notice me Sin piMay 20, 201770 votes

statistically balanced =/= fun to play against I dont care how balanced Fizz Yasuo is, if im just trying to have fun. I can play against them, but i wouldnt be having much fun in the process

MarshbouyMay 20, 20174 votes

I don't have any issue fighting Yasuo. I think banning him is a huge waste. I'd rather ban something like Tryndamere . Just because you find a champion to be annoying does not mean everyone finds them annoying. Annoying to someone does not meant that the champion requires changes.

notice me Sin piMay 20, 201749 votes

conversely, just because u dont find a champ annoying doesnt mean the majority of playerbase also doesnt find the champ fine to play against

MarshbouyMay 20, 20174 votes

That's true but just because the majority of the playerbase refuses to learn a champion's counterplay and understand how to fight them doesn't mean that the champion actually has any issues. Things banned in diamond are usually very different from things banned in bronze.

DrCyanideMay 20, 201737 votes

There's also a difference between me knowing how to play around a champion and my team knowing how to play around a champion.

It's part of why I view permabanning Kat as best practice in Silver, because even if I've got a stun and exhaust and don't feed her in lane she'll still snowball out of control. In Ranked, I've only won against a Kat 1/5 games, and I've won 1/1 games with them on my team. Really makes me wonder if I should just pick the snowballing menace up.

4JhínMay 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

That's true but just because the majority of the playerbase refuses to learn a champion's counterplay and understand how to fight them doesn't mean that the champion actually has any issues. Things banned in diamond are usually very different from things banned in bronze.

You're bronze...

MarshbouyMay 20, 20178 votes

irrelevant

notice me Sin piMay 20, 201712 votes

it doesnt require u to be a diamond to check out statistics on op.gg, champion.gg, or lolalytics.com, and it doesnt require a challenger player to undestand the statistics either

JaxMoonStealerMay 20, 201712 votes

Being broze doesn't disprove his point.

Ad hominem.

NuparuMay 20, 20172 votes

It's one thing to have counterplay that takes effort and time to learn. (See: Yasuo, Riven, etc.)

It's another to fight characters who basically have none when they just win because they have better stats. (See: Renekton, Jax, Trynd.)

Both are hilariously cancer to play against, but there's not enough bans in the game to ban all the broken shit and the cancer.

DeadUnbornMay 20, 20176 votes

Please explain to me how you beat a Yasuo with mages like ziggs and vel coz, specially since plat and above yasuo has a 5% lane win rate over them. Yasuo counters around 70% of mages simply because he outrades and outfarms them and then destroy your tower. and no, waiting for a gank is not an acceptable response; I shouldn't have to rely on another player to play the game for me in a solo lane. Sure some hard counters are to be expected, but whena characters counters 70% of all mages then that is a problem

NuparuMay 20, 20172 votes

As Ziggs and VK, you got counterpicked, but you still have a chance by just farming the lane and not dying and playing for mid game because Yasuo doesn't really do much against poke since he relies on hard engage that he can follow up on.

A lot of mages are fine though. Mages like Orianna, Cassiopeia, etc, who have strong ability to trade and lower cooldown abilities/stronger auto attacks can trade even and come out ahead depending on their ability to play the lane.

DeadUnbornMay 21, 20173 votes

Your lane phase gets screwed tho.. and you lose tower, and Yasuo scales to late game by farming while keeping you behind (which is what he wants). Now, lets look at other mages.

As you can see from the links below, for plat and higher ranks (which is where people know what they are doing) Yasuo absolutely stomps lane against both Ori and Cass. Yeah, the overall game win rate evens out, but that can be due to a lot of factos, like team comps, macro, lack of magic damage on yasuo's team, etc. The point is Yasuo has no trade off between having an oppresive lane phase AND scaling/snowballing really well also

http://matchup.gg/matchup/Cassiopeia/Yasuo/MID

http://matchup.gg/matchup/Orianna/Yasuo/MID

Now, if we look at the most popular mages in the top ten right now:

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Middle

Ahri, Oriana, Syndra, Kassadin, TF, Ekko, Lux, Le blanc

http://matchup.gg/matchup/Ahri/Yasuo/MID http://matchup.gg/matchup/Syndra/Yasuo/MID http://matchup.gg/matchup/Kassadin/Yasuo/MID http://matchup.gg/matchup/TwistedFate/Yasuo/MID http://matchup.gg/matchup/Ekko/Yasuo/TOP http://matchup.gg/matchup/Yasuo/Lux/MID http://matchup.gg/matchup/Leblanc/Yasuo/MID

Yasuo beats ALL but Le Blanc (which is another overtuned character). I repeat, he wins lane against ALL but one of the most popular mages. That is fair I guess, they all just got countered....pfff

NuparuMay 21, 20171 votes

The game win differential is less than 1% from 50 for almost all of those characters. It's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

DeadUnbornMay 21, 20172 votes

LANING PHASE DIFFERENTIALS:

Cassio 10% Ori 3% Ahri 6% Syndra 3% Kass 3% TF 7% Ekko 9% Lux 15%

Yeah... less than 1%, sure. Did you even open the links? I specifically said Yasuo's LANE PHASE was the problem. I repeat, LANE PHASE.

These numbers are terrible, they show means Yasuo complete nullifies all these champions by a good margin (52 vs 55% win rate is the difference between Riot letting a character be and nerfing them). Sure, Yasuo may end up losing the game because he went too aggresive, made his team be full AD, not have enough seiging potential or whatever, but he still has positive win rates after ROLFstomping the enemy laner, which means that players cannot have any agency during that game until the 35 min mark

NuparuMay 21, 20171 votes

Using a website to dictate lane wins is fucking worthless because a lane can be won or lost off many external factors, not just the two characters. It's also known that Yasuo does well into mages.

Also, Yasuo is known for having high cs differentials cause he has two last hitting tools plus his autos, so that augments his "lane differential" status.

DeadUnbornMay 21, 20172 votes

Hahaha really?! your counter argument is really gonna be "your website is dumb and fake"?

Let me explain something about stats: because the samples taken for the win rates I presented to you are large enough, probability dictates that all the different circumstances for winning a lane have been expresed when counting data, and thus negated (remeber I told you the stats are for plat and above)

Lane win rates can be scored by gold and exp leads, towers killed and kills and assits gotten throughtout the 7 to 13 min mark aproximately. It is not rocket science at all.

How long have you been playing league? It was also known that Kassadin was good against mages, with little counter play and beating almost all while also scaling exceptionally well....and then he got super nerfed over and over again. Sounds a little bit like Yasuo doesn't it?

Your second paragraph is just your opinion and not fundamented at all. I don't care how he beats mages, I care that as I showed you he beats almost every single mage by himself while also scaling really well. At the end of the day I have shown you the numbers. Wether you decide to cover your eyes or see the evidence (or at least try to counter argue with somehting other than "nah your website is dumb") is up to you.

Kal Vas FlamMay 20, 20175 votes

In an ideal world there would be no bans at all. Every champ has a hard counter, literally every single one. People either don't want to play the counters or just don't know what they are. I see people banning Yi here in Silver, like wtf. I won't argue that some champions are stronger than others, this is true, but most are within reason if an appropriate comp is picked to deal with the fotm champs.

Automated RivenMay 20, 201788 votes

That is so far from an ideal world. That means that whomever has first pick would literally have a shitty game every game.

Auz the RipperMay 20, 20172 votes

Not necessarily, the first pick could choose a noncritical role and bait an otherwise useless pick from the enemy or could rely on the rest of the team to hardcounter the hardcounter. Additionally there's no guarantee that the enemy will pick the hardcounter because they have their own team comp to worry about.

Now I'm not saying hardcounters would work in league at all but it does work very well in more stategic games like DotA

Velzard of KozMay 20, 201734 votes

Not necessarily, the first pick could choose a noncritical role and bait an otherwise useless pick from the enemy or could rely on the rest of the team to hardcounter the hardcounter.

1) Let me just pick some troll Support so that they think I'll go mid or top with it and pick otherwise useless champ in attempt to counter it

2) This is League of legends, not rock paper scissors.

JorenciceMay 20, 201710 votes

No they don't. In league hard counters barely exist. I can think of like 3.

It's mostly soft counters

WacingTheFindMay 20, 20172 votes

Yasuo vs Pantheon

I have to start cloth and 4 in this match-up as Yasuo just to be able to survive.

PoskeMay 20, 201710 votes

There are so many ways to deal with this matchup

Funny I find this matchup easy

You literaly have shield to block spears just keep refreshing it You should have lifesteal runes You can poke him through his shield with Q if minion is infront You ll have to sacrifice few minions but thats nothing because if pantheon doesnt snowball ahrd as fk you ll default win your lane You have even a windwall for spears

What I am trying to say is. Compared to most Melee champions yasuo can actually deal with pantheon

There are far worse champions you can have at top which can do nothing to pantheon

WacingTheFindMay 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ETxUEjz2,comment-id=0003000300040000,timestamp=2017-05-20T22:55:18.661+0000)

You ll have to sacrifice few minions but thats nothing because if pantheon doesnt snowball hard as fk you ll default win your lane

That's not winning lane, that's surviving lane, also, Windwall has a CD of 26/24/22/20/18, Yasuo's shield early game takes like ~20s to refresh, his Q has a CD of 4. He can stun you before you dash.

LS runes are a must as well, forgot to include those in my original comment.