> {quoted} > > Come on, now. You can't seriously think that a small reduction to her overall damage is a gutting.
Bless this man. Though with how much he post to this board you would think this wouldn't be a question given the amount of circlejerking and delusion here.
ChargeItDownMid37 votes[deleted]
Count Zubat14 votesSion didn't fall out of grace because of AP ratio on E being lowered by 0.08%, Sion doesn't even build AP in the first place. It were other things that made him obsolete, namely:
EDIT: Sorry, I just thought right now that you were meaning old Sion (probably). The 0.1 AP nerfs to old Sion didn't gut him. Sion fell out of meta because of how his damage as AP was unreliable. The shield's delay was just too long for him, in teamfights, people would just pop his shield before delay ended. He wasn't completely unplayable, but after years, his kit just became obsolete.
ChargeItDownMid33 votes[deleted]
Count Zubat5 votesHe was just completely broken back then. Unplayable? Not really. There were Sion mains who got nearly to challenger playing old AP Sion, for example, Soultran. Looking at some old posts on reddit, even he mentioned that any direct buff would make Sion broken, like pre nerf you mentioned.
WolfBV2 votesThe quote is out of context so I have no idea what he is referring to but small changes in damage output can make or break a champion. Sion went from the most overpowered mid champion to barely used after getting .1 ap nerfs on his q and w. Vlad has fallen in and out of favor countless times due to indirect buffs and nerfs. Small changes can matter a lot in a moba.
It was referring to some Quinn nerf on the PBE because she had a 73% win rate with experienced(?) players.
T RexHasTinyArms4 votesWere either of them sitting at a 70% win rate for experienced players and 56% win rate overall when they got those nerfs? (I don't think vlad has ever had those numbers in my memory) The context is referring to quinn btw and those were the win rates mentioned for her. The reasonable counter point brought up after Repertoir made the point that slight damage nerfs wouldn't completely gut quinn when she's showing up that strong currently, was that Tahm support is also at 70% win rate for experienced Tahm players and isn't touched (which seems hypocritical).
willuwontu1 votesI believe Sion was sitting around 80% when he got those nerfs (been a while). He was also completely oppressive in lane and deserved all of those nerfs.
FantasySniper2 votesI think old and broken Sion can't really be compared.
LeeDark13 votesToo bad in another post he talks about just how much small changes to base stats hurt or help a champion, because early buffs and nerfs translate into later power changes.
Pika3108 votesYup, typical Rito inconsistency. They only say whatever suits their needs at the time. Flip-flopping on issues just as often as patches. Even cats are like, "Woah Rito, can you tone down the fickleness?"
Kuroi869 votesNot really, small adjustments affect a champ both early and late, but that doesn't mean that a small numbers change can completely gut a champ.
Example: While losing 20 base damage off of an ability will hurt a champion, it doesn't gut them.
LeeDark6 votesIt does if they only have two damage abilities and the one getting nerfed is their bread and butter.
Kuroi866 votesHence why Riot goes for small number changes now instead of outright dumpstering a stat. If a champion needs a nerf, they should be nerfed, though you start small with your numbers to ensure that you don't overshoot the intended goal.
Pika3105 votesExcept Rito isn't nerfing champs that need it. Look at the next patch: with the lone exception of Soraka, literally every single champ getting nerfed is either a mid or low-tier champion. The "balance" team isn't even trying to do their job properly, they're the very face of 'phoning-it-in'.
CrazedPorcupine4 votesExcept, some of them (Soraka/Brand) have been borderline OP for ages. Brand because of his decent AP scaling, High base damages, Great AoE damage and tank shredding power has only ever been borderline because he's highly immobile, and has serious mana issues.
Brand's W is the only thing getting hit. This means that he'll have to sacrifice at least some of his build for mana/mana regen Instead of going straight for Magic Pen or AP like he has in the past.
Soraka with the buffs to support mana regen and the mastery changes, means that with less AP, she still heals for a metric ton and has massive Q sustain. In all honesty, mana nerfs are the best way to keep her insanely strong healing in place, while still offering some better counterplay. Her Q is now riskier for her to land max range, making it harder for her to sustain her healing. This accentuates her weaknesses without taking away her strength.
Swain has always been borderline OP. His big problem was again immobility. By accentuating his WEAKNESS, they make it so that opponents that can actually get up close to him, able to actually fight him. Even when they get up close though, he still has his great damage amp, slow and heal from his Q,E and R. Accentuating his weakness without hurting his strengths.
Riot has had the philosophy of "Clear strengths and weaknesses" and the latest set of buffs/nerfs to champions on the PBE are in line with that.
(I'm a soraka main and I honestly am not too hurt over the nerfs to her. I run Mana regen runes, so mana nerfs mean nothing to me)
Pika3102 votesIf you're going to try to take up my time with responses, at least show me the respect of actually reading what I said. I clearly stated Soraka as the exception and then here you are going on a long tangent about Soraka. Show some human courtesy.
CrazedPorcupine2 votesI discussed Swain, Brand and the entire concept of why they're nerfing "Low play-rate champs"
Vistha Kai1 votesYou haven't discussed anything.
You wrote a wall'o'text from one perspective and called it a day.
That's not a "discussion".
Vistha Kai1 votesLet's see:
What Riot does:
PS. You have no idea what you are talking about when you use "Borderline OP" when speaking about champions like Anivia, Brand or Swain.
The only thing that's "borderline OP" about them is the fact people may play whole season without seeing them once and when they finally do, they get shit on, because the are oblivious to the champion.
They have clear strengths and weaknesses unlike those abominations Riot releases lately, which are good at all phases of the game and have little-to-zero counterplay in any way or form other than being banned before the game.
CrazedPorcupine1 votesHow did Riot nerf Brand's Strengths? They only nerfed his W's Mana costs. Which is nerfing him by making his mana issues more accentuated.
Swain, Same thing, great dueling potential in his damage amp, sustain and DoT's. Accentuating his weakness of low mobility by hitting the one spell that helps keep him safe.
Soraka - Weakness is her HP to heal, Nerf her ability to self sustain safely, and make her heal more expensive in a way that forces Soraka to itemize a bit more mana regen over HP regen.
All of the highly immobile mages with such high numbers have had high winrates because most of the people that played those champions were veteren's/mains who play lots of games.
The thing was many people found those immobile champions boring, and so didn't play them. It's the same issue the original Xerath had. He was so incredibly boring and binary for his play pattern, that no one played him despite being incredibly strong (sitting at around a 53% winrate generally iirc).
Vistha Kai1 votesOld Xerath was less boring than the wave-clear bot we have now.
Honestly all that was needed was changing his stun from point'n'click to skillshot it is now.
Not ever single part of his kit.
Kuroi862 votesIs this your opinion or do you actually have some numbers to back this up?
And no, pick/ban/win rate alone is not evidence. These can indicate whether or not a champion needs to be looked at, but that alone is not proof of anything other than popularity and general player skill with a champion.
Unlike us, the balance team have a plethora of numbers at their disposal. Not just pick/ban/win, but also CS, average k/d/a, average damage, average heal, max k/d/a damage and heal, average builds, ect. From ALL of this and more information as well as a general knowledge of what Riot considered balanced (This is the one thing I would love to have a solid guideline for.) the balance team makes choices, they may not always make sense to us, but that is us seeing only a single tree within an entire forest.
Vistha Kai1 votesYou are going to be surprised, but we also have those numbers.
Kuroi861 votesI'm aware of API, the question is how many people on these boards actually look at those numbers vs simply jumping on bandwagons.
Of course simply having access the the numbers is only half of the solution, we still lack any knowledge of Riots stand on balance.
Vistha Kai1 votesLosing one third of the damage of the most used ability of a mage will be gutting.
In case of Syndra it was the difference between "Do I want to use it to harass?" and "It's a waste of mana that doesn't deal damage until level 3 or 4.", because the ability deals LESS damage than a basic attack.
It may look insignificant on paper and means completely nothing for the late game on paper, but the reality is that early game decides late game.
And not being able to do anything until level 4 is a huge nerf.
Silents4298 votesIt's almost like every champion is it's own unique case and changes will affect them differently big or small.
LeeDark6 votesThe only common factor is how dismissive Repertoir was of the community's concerns in both instances.
Silents4299 votesBecause 9 times out of 10 the concerns of the forums are blown out of proportion.
LeeDark6 votesAnd Riot is dismissive 10 times out of 10, so that's still a problem.
Silents42910 votesOh for fucks sakes don't even pull that, they consider and have put ideas the community suggested, one of the most recent being the title change for Morderkaiser.
Vistha Kai1 votesPraise be.
The question is... why would they change it to begin with?
Best KhaZix Void14 votesAnd Riot is dismissive 10 times out of 10, so that's still a problem.
There's nothing wrong with being dismissive towards people who don't know what they're talking about.
Emmy Cha0s4 votesYou mean aside from it being blatantly disrespectful? Not to mention the additional disrespect of you assuming the people he's dismissing to be uninformed.
Just remember what happens when you ASSUME.
OneSmoothDude2 votesHe's not saying that small changes aren't nerfs. There is a very clear distinction between getting nerfed and getting gutted. Losing 3 AD will not gut a champion.
Vistha Kai1 votesEspecially if you are Vayne and get 50% more true damage as a compensation the next patch.
But - Surprise! - not everybody is Vayne.
R1101 votesThose silver bolt changes were a nerf against most targets because Riot removed the flat true damage from the silver bolts. It was even necessary to introduce a minimum damage to the silver bolts.
The changes just emphasize the tank-slayer identity of the silver bolts.
Vistha Kai1 voteshttp://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bullshit.gif
Who was it... Repertoir(IIRC) said that it's a nerf only aganist targets with less than ~1100 HP.
R1101 votesFair enough, still early game nerfs have a lot of impact.
Vistha Kai11 votesYeah. Just like "a small reduction to her [early game] damage" wasn't a low blow to Syndra's laning.
Totally flipped her strengths for the first 15-20 minutes of the game. All that was needed: -20 base damage at level 1.
Auryiel25 votesThere's nothing ''small'' about a 28.5% reduction in base damage at rank 1
Vistha Kai3 votesGuess some people can't see that.
warpenguin5558 votesYep. Best Rioter NA. The guy he was talking to was probably also one of the people who said vayne losing 3 ad was not enough, but because its a different champion its gutting
Penns11 votesIt was not enough tho 
Vistha Kai3 votesAs a compensation Vayne now deals 50% more true damage.
Magus Polaris7 votesSo you thought a "boards are delusional and wrong about everything" circlejerk thread would be better instead?
Solaxo5 votesYeah.. first a small nerf. Then another small nerf. And another one. Again.. again..
Miku Hime sama1 votesYes, this exactly. Either repeatedly patch after patch after patch or a bunch of them all in one patch. Hell, they've even done them both simultaneously to just a single champ before.
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesOr a small buff....then another small buff....then another small buff.....and then we are with live 
