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Stop putting CDR directly into champion kits

DynamiteGazelle··64 votes·3,183 views

The new Ryze gets 30% CDR at max rank from his ult passive now (10/20/30).

Am I the only one who thinks this isn't a great idea? All it does is limit itemization, and for mages there are a lot of cdr options, but now Ryze won't want to buy any CDR items at all.

When I build 40% CDR on my champ from pure itemization (or masteries or runes), it makes me feel powerful because I chose this specific itemization route, which may have certain strengths and weaknesses compared to a "normal" build.

But when i get CDR for no reason from a champions kit, i just think "whelp, i guess this is just how the champion is meant to be played,' rather than feeling like I'm gaming the system to make my champion more powerful. Free CDR just gives me one less build path to experiment with.

Yeah, the previous Ryze had built in CDR, but it was only 10% and it was meant to add flavour in line with his backstory. 10% is also not a problem because it still makes alternative build paths worthwhile.

30% though? No frozen heart anymore i guess. Now I don't get to build additional CDR to try and make Ryze even more powerful, he just get balanced around having max CDR.

I feel like I'm not explaining myself quite properly, but I did my best. What do you guys think?

36 Comments

insaiyanbacca17 votes

just waiting for that one champ that has a no cdr cap passive

Arkna13 votes

{quoted}

just waiting for that one champ that has a no cdr cap passive

No, they'll just double the cdr he gets and cap it at 90% ;^)

G1Radiobot1 votes

If I could give you the internet, I would.

junglerboy1613 votes

CDR increases your damage output exponentially, for example, 20% CDR increases your damage output by more than twice as much as 10%, and 40% increases it by 6 times as much as 10%. 100% CDR increases your damage output to infinity (quite literally as long as you have mana (or don't have a resource to begin with) and you're fingers still work, you would have infinite damage). That is why CDR is capped at 40%, even increasing it to something like 50% (~20 times the damage increase of 10% CDR) would make it EXTREMELY over powered in any situation.

Here's the math:

standard damage output=100%. 10% CDR=111%. 20% CDR=125%. 30% CDR =143%. 40% CDR=166.6%. 50% CDR=200%. 60% CDR=250%. 70% CDR=333.3%. 80% CDR=500%. 90% CDR=1000%. 100% CDR=undefined number (infinite multiplier)

As you can see, going even a little past 40% CDR begins to increase your damage output extraordinarily quickly, which is why CDR is capped at such a seemingly arbitrary number.

Tis a nice day4 votes

And to make sure he remains relevant they'll give him damage, a knockback and two dashes.

insaiyanbacca1 votes

yup

IcyPepper3 votes

and a "high skillcap"

ShadowNinetails1 votes

Yasuo

drops mic

ProfDrDeath8 votes

Ryze's new passive CdR (and the way the passive now works) is both constricting and liberating his builds.

It is constricting in the regard that it makes building a high CdR item like Frozen Heart feel a little wasted in the late game (important point - he'll only go harshly over the cap with FH if he level 16+).

On the other hand, Ryze doesn't need CdR as much anymore - as the flat cooldown reduction of his passive now scales with CdR, all his combos can be used without CdR requirements (before, you needed a certain deal of CdR to do the QWQEQ instead of QWEQ). Now, I am not saying CdR is not useful anymore (it definitely is, especially for the passive's downtime), but it is certainly less of a strict requirement.

Also, his ratios are shifting - he benefits somewhat better from AP, but less from mana. Not build FH means your Q does 16-17 less damage - and you need only 30-31 AP to make up for that.

In summary, it is a rework - and as such, we are all going to need to reevaluate our build choices and priorities.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

Ryze's new passive CdR (and the way the passive now works) is both constricting and liberating his builds.

It is constricting in the regard that it makes building a high CdR item like Frozen Heart feel a little wasted in the late game (important point - he'll only go harshly over the cap with FH if he level 16+).

On the other hand, Ryze doesn't need CdR as much anymore - as the flat cooldown reduction of his passive now scales with CdR, all his combos can be used without CdR requirements (before, you needed a certain deal of CdR to do the QWQEQ instead of QWEQ). Now, I am not saying CdR is not useful anymore (it definitely is, especially for the passive's downtime), but it is certainly less of a strict requirement.

Also, his ratios are shifting - he benefits somewhat better from AP, but less from mana. Not build FH means your Q does 16-17 less damage - and you need only 30-31 AP to make up for that.

In summary, it is a rework - and as such, we are all going to need to reevaluate our build choices and priorities.

Would it be viable to build item 3025 instead of item 3110 ? No wasted CDR and it has some AP and actually slightly more mana. You are less tanky ofc, but still pretty decent with ROA I would think. Not sure how well he could use the proc, but it's not like he builds FH for the aura either (AFAIK).

MrBuffington1 votes

A lot of people seem to be favoring that right now. Personally I get 10% from masteries and build RG instead, Zhonyas or something if I need armor

Albatrosspro5 votes

A while back, probably S2 or so, Riot made the executive decision that individual player creativity was a low priority for them. Counter-building, normally in the form of defensive items, is about as far as build versatility tends to go. If you look at top ranked players, there is rarely much difference between how they build, even in very different game situations other than to rush MR vs. armor. Maybe this was the sacrificial lamb in a game with well over 100 champions and an ever increasing learning curve. (Players can pretty much learn one build path and stick to it.)

edit: I totally agree with you and you explained yourself well, but the ship has sailed on this issue IMO.

BeerOfRoot48435 votes

Each 10% of free CDR = One Rod of Ages for Ryze

Only Play Darius4 votes

I really dislike CDR built into kits. Ryze reaching 75% of the CDR cap without any items just takes it to a new level.

Thefriendlyorc1 votes

He was made relevant again, just in time for worlds. Zzz boring top lane god returns to claim his throne.

Voluug133 votes

I agree. It feel constricting and awful. Like a handicap on itemization.

Same happened with Cass, and instead of changing it, now that 25% CDR feels like a slap on the face. I cant build Athene/Morello without feeling like I am wasting something.

Hard4Hamsters5 votes

In the case of Cass and Ryze though, the CDR/mana regen options were never very viable as they needed flat mana over mana restore for their spammy abilities.

Cassiopeia doesn't make use out of mana regen over flat mana, as her abilities are always coming out (particularly her E) so Cass would rather build RoA and/or Seraph's. With Blue Buff and a high mana pool, Cass can throw out E's all the time and she will eventually reach 40% CDR without items (with Blue). Or she can grab a WotA or SV to cap her CDR while giving her more self heal. I think it's nice to see a champion that doesn't use a cookie cutter AP mage build. I think she has more options than other AP mages.

If anything, giving Ryze massive CDR for free actually frees up his itemization choices. It used to be FH or bust on Ryze because he NEEDED that 20% CDR. Now he doesn't have to build FH so he can build Randuin's or Thornmail or GA as armor choices without having to worry about NOT having Frozen Heart. Of course, Ryze will lose a small amount of damage from the 400 mana but he should gain more effective health with this change.

I think certain champs benefit more from CDR and other do not. For example, Swain doesn't typically build CDR nor does he really need it. On the other hand Vladimir benefits heavily from CDR and tries to incorporate as much as possible into his build. Many midlane mages who use mana will buy item 3174 or item 3165 to support their mana consumption while benefiting from the 20% CDR. For champions that spam abilities more often, item 3070 and item 3027 become more core because mana regen cannot support the amount of mana they are using for their abilities that are coming out every second. Giving Tear and RoA building mages CDR in the form of a passive, levels the playing field in some way.

Sirsir3 votes

Its a mixed blessing.

On the one hand he doesn't need build CDR items anymore. Massive AP builds, full CDR with just one Scaling CDR quint and the mastery. EX: item 3027 item 3089 item 3157 item 3285 item 3135 item 3020

On the other hand he can't build CDR anymore. item 3110 item 3165 become wasteful and so do item 3152 item 3023item 3025 item 3065 item 3060 if you take the CDR mastery.

Personally I like CDR in kits, its one of my favorite parts about Zyra. I hated when they took it of of TFs E. But I still hope they make it 10/15/20% so you have the wriggle room you need

TTUPhoenix1 votes

{quoted}

Its a mixed blessing.

On the one hand he doesn't need build CDR items anymore. Massive AP builds, full CDR with just one Scaling CDR quint and the mastery. EX: item 3027 item 3089 item 3157 item 3285 item 3135 item 3020

On the other hand he can't build CDR anymore. item 3110 item 3165 become wasteful and so do item 3152 item 3023item 3025 item 3065 item 3060 if you take the CDR mastery.

Personally I like CDR in kits, its one of my favorite parts about Zyra. I hated when they took it of of TFs E. But I still hope they make it 10/15/20% so you have the wriggle room you need

I play Zyra as my main mid laner, and I really enjoy player her. I like her passive CDR, since to me it was a hint, a way of saying, hey, you should try to build for this stat, this champ does well with it. I build Morellonomicon, take the CDR mastery, and enjoy my 35% CDR. The amount of CDR Ryze is getting, though, seems a bit ridiculous, since it means there's almost no point itemizing for CDR.

Zarxis2 votes

I really think Riot should remove the passive CDR from Ryze's kit entirely so they don't have to wreck his base stats and scalings. He already has some CDR options (Frozen Heart, Will of the Ancients, Frozen Fist, even Boots of Lucidity are an okay choice); making him waste stats on one of his best items (Frozen Heart) is a bad idea.

Caeler2 votes

The other bad part of the 30% CDR is that it takes up some of Ryze's power budget, leaving less room for him to be powerful elsewhere.

Crett2 votes

here is why this is a good thing item 3025 DONE! now i can stack my tears and roas without having to worry about itemizing for cdr

junglerboy161 votes

Precisely what I always built on him anyway lol. Though maybe a Lich bane would be better now since you can get CDR from runes and masteries anyway.

CubedJustice2 votes

item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 item 3027

Tis a nice day1 votes

Occasionally item 3007

Dengeden1 votes

The only thing he won't be building anymore is double CDR items. That's it. He'll still want glacial shroud vs ADs and it's not like 50% CDR is an auto lose or something. If anything it'll increase his build diversity because he's no longer bound to FH.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I think you explained your points very well. You don't like the fact that he gets so much free cooldown reduction and you want the option of having being able to buy CDR items. I agree with this point too; it's not fun when you don't have a whole lot of options for building the champion you want to play a champion.

However, his builds are arguably less restrictive than before. Before, you had a distinct core build that could not be changed in any way with Rod of Ages, Seraph's Embrace, cap at 40% CDR with Frozen Heart, plus boots and a couple other items to round out the build. Now, since he caps at the CDR cap without needing to buy as much (or any with the right runes/masteries) and the increase in damage he gets from building AP, he has a lot more options from AP items.

Something that I feel that may contribute to why Ryze is getting so much free cooldown reduction is that because his new passive uses spell casts to get he cooldown reduction on ability cast and mana shield and that his passive reduces his cooldowns by the cooldown of his Q that any cooldown reduction builds would be insane on Ryze and every other build would be bad. By giving him so much free CDR they can tune him around having that extra CDR and therefore better balance him in the future because they don't have to worry about his CDR builds being flat-out insane.

SlushieDee1 votes

Don't worry, it won't do much, he's still gated by the BALANCED mana regen.

Auryiel1 votes

They usually do this because the champ needs another way of having his power gated

Imagine if instead of having 30% CDR in his ult all his abilities had roughly 20% less base CD

Let's say his Q has a 5 second CD and with his ult it becomes 3.5 seconds Now let's say it has a 4 second CD. If you build 40% cdr, that's 2.4 seconds

The difference is massive for someone like Ryze. It's just a way of making sure he can't go to a place where when his passive is up, he just goes QQQQQQQQ Karthus style

DarkFaun Fortes1 votes

I put alota CDR on Vel'Koz to spam my abilitys and everyone laugh becasue i do no damage, and then my passive kills them xD

Migrañaboy1 votes

This just makes Ryze itemization like everyone elses.

Wonder who's next, Swain?

Venowolf1 votes

One of the core ideas its make the Frozen Heart a less atractive item for him, but now you can Buil Rigtheous Glory or Lich Bane in his kit, with the core RoA ad Seraph Embrace, a GA to have a second wind so now can be build more like a Rogue mage (fast and roaming) Luden Echo can be tested to. Now he have a better ap ratios in some skills.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

They want you to be willing to build non-cdr items. Everyone stacks Frozen Heart, which while most will still do so, now you won't be punished as hard for doing something different.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I'm sitting here betting that they'll knock it down at least to 10/15/20%, if not further.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

They basically did that to make Frozen Heart a non-core item on Ryze.

That's 100% their reasoning. Compared to the Heimerdinger rework, where he used to have CDR on his ultimate, and it was removed their reasoning was that they can naturally put lower CD's onto his basic abilities if they wanted him to have shorter CD's and that removing the CDR from his ultimate gave him a larger amount of viable builds.

For Ryze actually, putting the CDR on so that he isn't enticed to build any, does actually increase his build paths. Before Ryze really wanted to hit 25%~ CDR after Tear/RoA, meaning he had limited options. It was either Frozen Heart rush, or Glacial + Spirit Visage. Now, he can actually buy a Zhonya's if he needs it against say a Zed. Or an Abyssal if he needs some offensive MR, or maybe a voidstaff to deal with the stacked MR on the other team.

Those are options Ryze almost never had, sure super late game or fed Ryze's could build Void/Abyssal, but you never saw them in even games at the 25~30 minute mark when people are working on their third items.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

I find it interesting that you do not appreciate the scaling CDR in Ryze's new kit. The CDR opens itemization opportunities that old Ryze never had and gives Riot additional mechanisms to help balance Ryze's kit.

At a certain point it becomes prohibitive to itemize for CDR and the fact that Ryze does not need to consider CDR in his Runes, Masteries or Items is a notable boon. As far as itemization goes, this is a really big deal. It opens so many new avenues for him. Your argument even supports it.

"30% though? No frozen heart anymore i guess."

The fact that you groan the loss of Frozen Heart only helps prove that Ryze's scaling CDR will open more itemization avenues because he does not have to rely on that one item to make him playable. He can choose from a series of items to increase his power in different ways. Furthermore, these changes do not mean he cannot build Frozen Heart. Ryze can still build that item and it will still benefit him, it's not like he gets a debuff for having 10% extra CDR, but now he can actually think about Iceborne Gauntlet instead, which seems like it would be more suited to his new kit.

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