Janna Ultimate and Polymorph are a still big fk you to anyone who doesnt outrange them

Poske·Nov 21, 2017·10 votes·1,563 views

When is this getting addressed??

56 Comments

Ben SharpioNov 21, 20178 votes

when is it getting addressed? When support players finally look at themselves in the mirror and see how DISGUSTING and ungrateful they are.

They RUINED this game for months on end with ardent censor, their kits are not only overpowered, but easy to use. They don't have to learn how to farm, don't learn jungle pathing, don't learn literally anything other than being the adc's bitch.

Ok, so if its so easy why don't people play it into challenger? Because it's boring, uninspiring, and a complete worthless experience.

Why does janna press a single button to deny any type of engage? why is polymorph point and click? Soraka presses a single button to turn teamfights. Rakan and his 0 counterplay engages (hes been nerfed so w/e, he's still dumb as fuck)

Yet you still have support mains talking about "skill". Sona is on a whole other level of just.... WTF are these people thinking ?

Ok so heres what we do: Nerf all enchanters again, because they're still overpowered. Hmm... then we figure out what we can do to make the support role more skillful. Add more skillshots, give them something to do because support players will ALWAYS opt into playing the most braindead/effective champs.

iSpencerNov 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-11-21T10:18:51.189+0000)

when is it getting addressed? When support players finally look at themselves in the mirror and see how DISGUSTING and ungrateful they are.

They RUINED this game for months on end with ardent censor, their kits are not only overpowered, but easy to use. They don't have to learn how to farm, don't learn jungle pathing, don't learn literally anything other than being the adc's bitch.

Ok, so if its so easy why don't people play it into challenger? Because it's boring, uninspiring, and a complete worthless experience.

You sound like the type of guy who says adc is braindead because they just have to right click you and you die. Every role has some champions who are easy to pick up and/or have few skill shots. Support also has some champions with 3-4 skill shots in their kits.

I'm a support main who averaged over 10 cs per minute on my last Nasus (filled top) game. I don't like to jungle, but I follow my jungler on invades as support and communicate ideas on where to path/pressure/gank in the free time I have when I'm not csing. I follow up by warding where I think we should apply pressure so my team is more likely to gravitate towards that area.

But I guess I don't need to know anything about the game and I have no skill because I play support.

WinterwingsNov 21, 20171 votes

Pah, dont bother, it's just Corsair Sion... The dude has a severe anti-Enchanter bias and will say anything to make his opinon look like valid

Sure, Enchanter kits are not the most fun things to vs in this game but... isn't that down to Riot for not bringing their outdated, archaic kits up to more modern standards?

NocturnalSheildNov 21, 20175 votes

Theres shit tons of support challenger mains... the fuck you smoking?

You know what takes tons of skill wither with a 100% uptime. ^-^ wow much skill.

PoskeNov 21, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Theres shit tons of support challenger mains... the fuck you smoking?

You know what takes tons of skill wither with a 100% uptime. ^-^ wow much skill.

LOGIC - 100

NocturnalSheildNov 21, 20171 votes

You denying there are challenger mains?

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You denying there are challenger mains?

you are denying logic ?

Of course there are challenger supports I cannot even comprehend your though process. I bet you are from USA

NocturnalSheildNov 21, 20172 votes

The fuck are you talking about?

First dude says supports are no skill and no one plays them.

I say their is challenger supports which both disproves supports being no skill AND that no one plays them.

Them you say logic -100

Which if you didnt know the definition of logic is.

"Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity"

Which means you think my statement isnt valid. Which of course is easily disproved.

So either your extremely confused or have no idea what logic is.

Also great job immediatly insulting my country for no reason really proved your from the better country... /S

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The fuck are you talking about?

First dude says supports are no skill and no one plays them.

They require less skill then other roles

I say their is challenger supports which both disproves supports being no skill AND that no one plays them.

It doesnt. Simple reason : EACH SIDE HAS 1 SUPPORT... someone has to lose Idk whats more ridicilus your statement or saying that the earth is flat.

Never said that none plays them though but they require very little skill and are soul draining in terms of fun

NocturnalSheildNov 22, 20171 votes

The fuck kind of stupid argument is that.

Every team also has adc... and a jungler... and a mid and top.

Also he does say no one plays them. Except it flat out false. Theres just as many support challenger as their is any other class. If it was so easy it would just be like 90 support mains in challenger.

"Ok, so if its so easy why don't people play it into challenger? Because it's boring, uninspiring, and a complete worthless experience."

PoskeNov 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The fuck kind of stupid argument is that.

Every team also has adc... and a jungler... and a mid and top.

Excatly you cant value a power of a role if each side has 2

Also he does say no one plays them.

He probably meant that it is the least mained role

AnonagonNov 21, 20178 votes

While I think Janna's Ult is much more forgivable (as its an Ultimate), Polymorph is actually the most disgusting insult to the idea of counterplay still in the game. Its the closest any single basic ability comes to invalidating enemy champion choices. Assassins and aggressive fighters simply can't function against a Lulu without being absurdly ahead.

Z3SleeperNov 21, 20171 votes

One of the few basic ability point click CC's still in the game. Wonder why Lulu gets the special treatment of not having hers removed as well.

It makes sense for Fiddle, since he really doesn't do much else. But Lulu has loads of other things up her sleeve that having point click invalidation makes her absolutely frustrating to play against.

Project omenNov 21, 20174 votes

That's pretty much the point of them, how is this an issue?

UnboundHadesNov 22, 20172 votes

because there is almost no counter play to polymorph and if you are even close to a damage dealer when its cast on you, you're just dead

and janna ult is an aoe heal your team up to full health while the enemy cant do anything because they are no longer close enough to you

The Minion huntNov 21, 20173 votes

Are people really saying the they cant kill the adc alone as any champ in this game because of supports, wow that's the role, should 1 person beat 2, ask your team for help, you should need it if that adc is getting peeled for and not an idiot about positioning.

RainXBladeNov 21, 20171 votes

I wanna go back to the time when people like Zed were so strong they could easily 1v2 any bot lane

Subject 5Nov 21, 20173 votes

Without lock-on abilities champions with high mobility and high damage would be impossible to deal with; it just so happens that because champions are allowed to have high damage and high mobility with massive sustain and burst damage all at the same time - lesser classes like melee champions are required to suffer. Thus: Lulu isn't necessarily unhealthy for her W otherwise Annie would be seen as unhealthy as well.

SkorchNov 21, 20172 votes

champions are allowed to have high damage and high mobility with massive sustain and burst damage all at the same time

Arent those like... all melee champions though?

MhihnjNov 21, 20171 votes

RIP Volibear

Subject 5Nov 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Arent those like... all melee champions though?

Ranged champions do this better.

SkorchNov 21, 20171 votes

high mobility

[sg-miss-fortune]

koshkyraNov 21, 20173 votes

Janna's ult is on a giant fucking cooldown until she gets 45% cdr and 15% from ultimate hat.

She also has to make herself useless for 3 seconds if she wants to use it for the heal.

Lulu lol

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Janna's ult is on a giant fucking cooldown until she gets 45% cdr and 15% from ultimate hat.

She also has to make herself useless for 3 seconds if she wants to use it for the heal.

Lulu lol

her knockback is instant It throws melee kits with 1 jump in a trashcan riven included because all of her mini dashes are like 1 dash

Lulu polymorph / ultimate is instant

her tornado is also really fast as of lately

And its not like she has to make herself useless what else would she be doing. She can easly put E on adc path tornado some way and press ultimate in 0.2 seconds. She can still use second Q redemption and locket while channeling (Not sure on top of a head if she can E stuff in range)

You can only argue that she might not get full channel of sometimes

NyarlathοtepNov 21, 20173 votes

Works as intended. Their job is to peel. I can understand the hate behind polymorph but janna's utli?? Are you for real now. It knockbacks only at the start. Nothing else. For god's sake man, at least dont bash her ulti.

Zero Skill TankNov 21, 20171 votes

Right, 875 units instant knockback that you can't miss no matter how much of bonobo you are AND has a massive heal attached in case you SOMEHOW timed badly enough for your buddies to take some damage it is nothing to hate on.

No matter how you look on it, it's one of the most impactfull abilities in the game while also having some of the lowest skill requirement and some of the least counterplay.

Being an ult doesn't change that in any way.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

NyarlathοtepNov 21, 20173 votes

You are even crazier than the OP xD. This massive heal you are speaking of needs to be channeled, aka standing still while doing nothing else. Also since janna is supp and most likely plays as one the heal wont be that big since she wont buy ap to increase it. Hating it is pretty normal but calling it op or broken is not because its perfectly balanced.

No matter how you look on it, it's one of the most impactfull abilities

Wow who would have thought that an ultimate has much impact. Damn man. And im afraid it has a pretty decent skill requirement since as janna you have to be careful on when to use it since its half your peeling power.

Hey lets play the game, lets make things sound op. Now there is an ulti that is global and can deal a pretty decent amount of magic dmg. Also at its centre it can also deal true dmg while also slowing the enemy and giving his allies movement speed buff. Or this wall that is on a 26 sec cd that completely negates every projectile in the game, from all sides. Or this spell that completely negates all spells that touches the caster for 0.75 sec and deflects hard cc.

So yeah please stop making things sound op.

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You are even crazier than the OP xD. This massive heal you are speaking of needs to be channeled, aka standing still while doing nothing else. Also since janna is supp and most likely plays as one the heal wont be that big since she wont buy ap to increase it. Hating it is pretty normal but calling it op or broken is not because its perfectly balanced.

OP is ex challenger current dia2 and in promos. So what exactly makes you think my opinion isnt good? I also never mentioned her heal. I was more of refering to an instant knockback which fks up any melee champion with engage

The whole PEEL Queen gameplay doesnt belong in league of legends. We shouldnt have an ultimate peel champions since they ruin half of roster

But her heal is quite powerful to. And yes she ll have AP. Good janna ll buy ardent athene and bunch of mana regen items. As of lately doing damage with janna is nothing wierd. she can easly have 250-300 ap Even if she doesnt her ultimate has high base dmg

Wow who would have thought that an ultimate has much impact. Damn man. And im afraid it has a pretty decent skill requirement since as janna you have to be careful on when to use it since its half your peeling power.

half? ultimate is just the last straw

Hey lets play the game, lets make things sound op. Now there is an ulti that is global and can deal a pretty decent amount of magic dmg. Also at its centre it can also deal true dmg while also slowing the enemy and giving his allies movement speed buff. Or this wall that is on a 26 sec cd that completely negates every projectile in the game, from all sides. Or this spell that completely negates all spells that touches the caster for 0.75 sec and deflects hard cc.

So yeah please stop making things sound op.

I main yasuo. yasuo adc was my secondary role when I climbed to chall 5-6 months ago

Windwall isnt healthy but in a current meta its a breath of fresh air for the cancerous ADC class

I would remove the windwall curve and make it more flat. This would be a nerf to windwall since the curve makes oposing players not wanting to go on a side and hit yasuo

Janna and lulu peel is standard complaint from high elo players

NyarlathοtepNov 21, 20172 votes

Oh boi this is gonna be fun

OP is ex challenger current dia2 and in promos. So what exactly makes you think my opinion isnt good?

Nice good for you i suppose. Now what make me think that your opinion is not good? That you complain about the peeling capabilities when their job is to peel, well at least for janna. I can relate to your hate about lulu too. I agree that she needs to lose something.

I also never mentioned her heal. I was more of refering to an instant knockback which fks up any melee champion with engage

Good. Because i wasnt referring to when i was talking about the heal. Besides whats so bad that it fcks up any melee that wants to engage? I mean her job is to keep the enemies at bay so whats so bad about her knockbacking the attackers? Outside of that her ulti is pretty lackster. When ardents was strong her heal was more valuable but now with ardents nerfed her heal is pretty meh overall. I mean if we use your logic, " x fcks up any y champ with z " then lol would be unplayable.

The whole PEEL Queen gameplay doesnt belong in league of legends

Hoo how so? Or rather why? If we can have an engage king/queen then why we cant have and peel queen? Because you deem it toxic or unfair?

We shouldnt have an ultimate peel champions since they ruin half of roster

Then we shouldnt either have a tankbuster because they ruin a good chunk of the roaster either.

But her heal is quite powerful to

Im not sure about that. The base heal is 50 / 75 / 100 per second with 25% scaling. Fiora's is 80 / 110 / 140 per second with 60% bonus ad. Sure fiora wont use it that often in teamfights as janna will but janna surely wont stand still for 3 second UNLESS she cant do anything else. Hell im pretty sure she doesnt want to stand still for that long.

And yes she ll have AP. Good janna ll buy ardent athene and bunch of mana regen items

Oh really? According to op gg the only ap items she buys are ardents and the eyes of the watchers. Also most mana regen items lack ap. Just saying.

As of lately doing damage with janna is nothing wierd.

Sorry to burst your bubble but i havent ever seen a supp janna deal dmg. Then again i havent seen her since runes reforged.

she can easly have 250-300 ap Even if she doesnt her ultimate has high base dmg

250-300 ap? Wait what? I mean she could reach 200 ap through runes and some supp items but 250? I mean lets try to do some maths.

Lets suppose she takes sorcery. Thats 25 ap. Ardents and eyes of watcher will give her 95 ap ( total 120 ) . Thats 2 slots down. Lets suppose she has celerity as rune, this is gonna be rough. Her most common boots according to opgg is boots of mobility as such 25 bonus movement speed. With her passive ( 8% ) this will be 2 as such 27 bonus movement speed. With her passive w she gains 6%-10% bonus movement speed. I will pick her lowest because im lazy. the 6% of 27 is 1.5 for a total of 28.5 ( 29?) movement speed. Celerity will also give her 4% bonus movement speed, 4% of 29 is 1.16 ( 1?) for a grand total of 30 bonus movement speed. Celerity will give 8% ap of the bonus movement speed, for a 2.4 ap ( 3? 2?) ( total 123 ap ). Thats also the 3rd slot down. Since she is support she cant skip solaris and redemption. There go 2 other slots. Lets suppose her final slot will be athene's grail. This will give her + 30 ap for a total of 153 ap.

So yeah all in all UNLESS i made a mistake above there she cant reach 250 ap.

half? ultimate is just the last straw

I mean to say that its half her peeling power her ulti. Otherwise she is left with her q to peel ( and w i suppose but its less powerful )

Windwall isnt healthy but in a current meta its a breath of fresh air for the cancerous ADC class

To be fair you missed my point. What i wanted to say is that everything can sound op if you write down their strengths. And while it helps against adc it completely invalidates and others projectile based champs.

Janna and lulu peel is standard complaint from high elo players

Lulu? Perhaps but i dont think this is true for janna nowadays. I mean it was when ardents was a thing but now she seems pretty fair AND balanced.

PoskeNov 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Oh boi this is gonna be fun

Nice good for you i suppose. Now what make me think that your opinion is not good? That you complain about the peeling capabilities when their job is to peel, well at least for janna. I can relate to your hate about lulu too. I agree that she needs to lose something.

I dont mind them peeling but janna is to good at peeling while yes lulu is a terminal cancer

Good. Because i wasnt referring to when i was talking about the heal. Besides whats so bad that it fcks up any melee that wants to engage? I mean her job is to keep the enemies at bay so whats so bad about her knockbacking the attackers? Outside of that her ulti is pretty lackster. When ardents was strong her heal was more valuable but now with ardents nerfed her heal is pretty meh overall. I mean if we use your logic, " x fcks up any y champ with z " then lol would be unplayable.

I mean hear heal is undervalued. It scales well + there are bunch of %increased healing/shielding items

Hoo how so? Or rather why? If we can have an engage king/queen then why we cant have and peel queen? Because you deem it toxic or unfair?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CHAMPION IN A GAME WHICH SAYS. MY ENTIRE TEAM CAN JUMP ON THE ENEMY. if we had something like that it owuld be toxic

Thats the strenght of Janna ultimate and it is not her only peeling ability

Now of course janna ultimate doesnt disengage entire team always. But its not like in the above example ranged champions would jump to

Best engages we have are Speedboosts from Kled,Sivir. And ryze ultimate if you want to int your team

Then we shouldnt either have a tankbuster because they ruin a good chunk of the roaster either.

item 3135 item 3035 yes this 2 items actually require nerfs. Due to ruining any champion who doesnt have windwall,trickster,%dmg reduction

What tankbusters are there? Fiora? atleast she needs to work for runining tanks rather then janna

Im not sure about that. The base heal is 50 / 75 / 100 per second with 25% scaling. Fiora's is 80 / 110 / 140 per second with 60% bonus ad. Sure fiora wont use it that often in teamfights as janna will but janna surely wont stand still for 3 second UNLESS she cant do anything else. Hell im pretty sure she doesnt want to stand still for that long.

And then you realise that there are bunch of items which increase healing by %.

Oh really? According to op gg the only ap items she buys are ardents and the eyes of the watchers. Also most mana regen items lack ap. Just saying.

If you build redemption,ardent,athene,mikales

You ll have 40% more healing without runes You ll also gain 100 ap just from athene 60 from ardent. Idk why is reaching 250-300 ap something wierd to you supports reach that It might be just me prefering frost queen over sighstone

I really dont like sighstone. I ussualy sit on yellow trinket and buy control wards

Sorry to burst your bubble but i havent ever seen a supp janna deal dmg. Then again i havent seen her since runes reforged.

She was slightly reworked to interact, She was even hotfixed for doing to much damage

To be fair you missed my point. What i wanted to say is that everything can sound op if you write down their strengths. And while it helps against adc it completely invalidates and others projectile based champs.

but janna is actually OP...Challenger tier according to lolalytics. Stop the favorism

Lulu? Perhaps but i dont think this is true for janna nowadays. I mean it was when ardents was a thing but now she seems pretty fair AND balanced.

lulu is more annoying, Janna is consistently stronger

NyarlathοtepNov 22, 2017

I dont mind them peeling but janna is to good at peeling

To be fair its her only strength. Nerfing her peeling power and you are left with a very weak janna. Which would mean that she will need some compensation buffs. Buffs that might not end up well.

I mean hear heal is undervalued. It scales well + there are bunch of %increased healing/shielding items

I cant say whether it scales well or not but the %increased healing/shielding items needs a small correction. In game ( and in sites ) they say that the abilities are unique and as such they shouldnt increase.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CHAMPION IN A GAME WHICH SAYS. MY ENTIRE TEAM CAN JUMP ON THE ENEMY. if we had something like that it owuld be toxic

Actually there is, kinda. His name is ivern with his q. It literally makes the targets that dash to rooted enemies in their respective attack range.

Best engages we have are Speedboosts from Kled,Sivir. And ryze ultimate if you want to int your team

True but they arent the only one. Leona's ulti and ashe's ulti can work as engages both of which are pretty strong. Same applies to blitz amumu and nautilus.

yes this 2 items actually require nerfs. Due to ruining any champion who doesnt have windwall,trickster,%dmg reduction

Well this is quite actually difficult to say. We need penetration otherwise tanks would take forever to take down.

What tankbusters are there? Fiora? atleast she needs to work for runining tanks rather then janna

Vayne fiora and kog maw all fall within the tankbusters category. Tho only kog feels fair to play against since his tankbusting dmg is magic and a such tanks can itemize against it. However both fiora and vayne feel disgusting. Both of them chunk no matter what. And both of them are a cancer to catch.

And then you realise that there are bunch of items which increase healing by %.

And then you realise that its not janna itself busted, but the items make her. As always i mean.

You ll have 40% more healing without runes You ll also gain 100 ap just from athene 60 from ardent. Idk why is reaching 250-300 ap something wierd to you supports reach that

Again how THE FK do you make these numbers? Did you even read my calculation on her reaching 250 ap? Im pretty sure i proved that she cant reach 250 ap, UNLESS she gets massive buffs to ap like infernal.

She was slightly reworked to interact, She was even hotfixed for doing to much damage

Jeez man . Thx for telling the obvious. I know that she was slightly reworked but im talkin about her dmg wise AFTER that said mini rework.

but janna is actually OP...Challenger tier according to lolalytics. Stop the favorism

Then i suppose we should nerf twisted fate and singed too. Look man riot shouldnt nerf someone because their winrate is a little bigger than average. ( actually now that i think of it nerf signed. FK singed )

Janna is consistently stronger

Who would have thought that the support that is dedicated to protect carries ( especially adc's ) would have a good winrate when all adc across the board are doing relatively good.

PoskeNov 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

To be fair its her only strength. Nerfing her peeling power and you are left with a very weak janna. Which would mean that she will need some compensation buffs. Buffs that might not end up well.

What about free BF sword, free movementspeed, general cc, the fact that she can poke without counterplay since recently

I am not saying we should remove PEEL from janna. I am saying that it should be nerfed

Now whether that is by making her tornado really thin on low range (So that melee champions can actually dodge it) (Ranged would be the same from 300 range onwards)

Or we can put an small cast time on her ultimate.

Stuff like this. I am not saying we should remove her ultimate, q and turn her into a siege minion

I didnt give specific suggestions because they never do well on boards

I cant say whether it scales well or not but the %increased healing/shielding items needs a small correction. In game ( and in sites ) they say that the abilities are unique and as such they shouldnt increase.

They do scale. there is a difference between unique passive and unique name passive

Actually there is, kinda. His name is ivern with his q. It literally makes the targets that dash to rooted enemies in their respective attack range.

I guess we can count that. But I was thinking more of. An entire team can dash to a certain location in enemy proximity (to prevent the escape abuse case). When multiple melees are go on ivern Q target with rightclick they often got wombo-comboed by enemy

True but they arent the only one. Leona's ulti and ashe's ulti can work as engages both of which are pretty strong. Same applies to blitz amumu and nautilus.

Yet juggernauts are in a horrible spot but thats a seperate issue. I could give suggestions what has to be done but this thread is more of a nerf demand for 2 strongest supports

Well this is quite actually difficult to say. We need penetration otherwise tanks would take forever to take down.

we do need penetration. Voidstaff gives to much, last whisper gives less (doesnt count normal armor) but it costs 1300

Voidstaff is second item rush after boots and nomicon - aka League is fked up

400 armor tanks melt in 5 seconds to ADCS - there is also something really wrong with league

Vayne fiora and kog maw all fall within the tankbusters category. Tho only kog feels fair to play against since his tankbusting dmg is magic and a such tanks can itemize against it. However both fiora and vayne feel disgusting. Both of them chunk no matter what. And both of them are a cancer to catch.

Vayne is only cancer once she starts visiting toplane. Yes she is sort of difficult to teamfight against the lower elo you are My only issue with fiora is the fact that she is essentially mana less. Sometimes I wonder why she even has mana bar but hey bramble is in a game and it is to efficient against her which is nessesary since she is to efficient eh clown fiesta of balance

And then you realise that its not janna itself busted, but the items make her. As always i mean. You ll also gain 100 ap just from athene 60 from ardent. Idk why is reaching 250-300 ap something wierd to you supports reach that

Again how THE FK do you make these numbers? Did you even read my calculation on her reaching 250 ap? Im pretty sure i proved that she cant reach 250 ap, UNLESS she gets massive buffs to ap like infernal.

item 3092 item 3504 item 3174 60+60+100 = 220 the mastery tree gives like 20 on its own thats 240 Athene gives 100 once you get redemption its at 80 with just those 3 I believe

And her ultimate gets stronger with those items aswell...

Really simple math.

Then i suppose we should nerf twisted fate and singed too. Look man riot shouldnt nerf someone because their winrate is a little bigger than average. ( actually now that i think of it nerf signed. FK singed )

When Did I say we shouldnt? Personaly I would rather not have them buffing taliyah (better twisted fate unless you want to reveal stealth)

Twisted fate wasnt challenger tier pick before the ADC became the only role which matters

Who would have thought that the support that is dedicated to protect carries ( especially adc's ) would have a good winrate when all adc across the board are doing relatively good.

ADC have been doing extremly good across the board since ever (season 1). ADC LUL was just a meme nothing more but it ended up with riot making them more opressive then ever

Since aparently riot isnt nerfing ADC class janna should suffer for being free B.F sword and the best peeler

also Janna is all time best support by quite a margin

NyarlathοtepNov 22, 2017

What about free BF sword, free movementspeed, general cc, the fact that she can poke without counterplay since recently

Im up for lowering her bonus dmg form her e but im afraid it wont happen anytime soon. As for her cc on general is kinda low. Her q being her only spammable hard cc ( since her ulti is used mostly to peel ). And her poke is low VERY low. I think you have forgotten that since her mini rework her base ad has been butchered because they added on hit magic dmg on her aa scaling with her bonus movement speed, which means it will take time for her aa to deal any serious dmg. Her q cant be used as poke most of the times and her w deals low dmg AND will lose the bonus movement speed from her w.

Now whether that is by making her tornado really thin on low range (So that melee champions can actually dodge it)

Now thats just stupid. The point of her q ( mostly ) is to stop for a 0.5 sec. By making thinner you just give a middle finger to its job. Hell her q is the most balanced part of her kit since it can be used only as a brief knock up.

Or we can put an small cast time on her ultimate.

We could but i doubt that will satisfy you. Because either it would be small ( like annie's ulti, which is know for being instacast despite the fact that it has a very very small cast time ) or big for a cast time i mean ofc.

They do scale. there is a difference between unique passive and unique name passive

They have a weird interaction. They dont increase with duplicating the items, yet together they stack which they shouldnt since they are unique but oh well rito gems.

I guess we can count that. But I was thinking more of. An entire team can dash to a certain location in enemy proximity (to prevent the escape abuse case). When multiple melees are go on ivern Q target with rightclick they often got wombo-comboed by enemy

Please man dont give riot ideas for the next champ xD

we do need penetration. Voidstaff gives to much, last whisper gives less (doesnt count normal armor) but it costs 1300

Well to be fair voidstaff needs to give much since we have more options for magic resistance nowadays. I remember when i had to face tanks with 2 mr items and 1 hybrid tank item. My god even with voidstuff he was nigh impossible to be dmged by me. As for last whisper well its power lies with its abilities. At least now, before it was just busted.

400 armor tanks melt in 5 seconds to ADCS

Its only expected since they can reduce all this armour down to 150 or somewhere there and keep aa for 190+ dmg at a speed of average 1.7.

Vayne is only cancer once she starts visiting toplane. Yes she is sort of difficult to teamfight against the lower elo you are

It is difficult to fight her when your team lacks point and click hard cc.

60+60+100 = 220 the mastery tree gives like 20 on its own thats 240

Emm what? Athene's gives only 30 ap xD as such the ap is 180. Also buying athene's is not even optimal xD since she needs dmg to store it. But you are going to lose solaris and redemption 2 powerful supp items.

PoskeNov 22, 20171 votes

The more mana regen you have the more athene AP gives You see supports have mana regen Mages have mana

Since recently janna does damage she can stack athene

I am positive there is nothing wrong with a build I suggested

You dont even need boots with that build XD

NyarlathοtepNov 22, 2017

wait wait WAIT A MINUTE. WHEN DID THEY CHANGE ATHENE?! Holy moly this item is so obscure that i cant even see it in the patch notes. Still at lvl 6 those 3 items will give her 26 more ap. She might reach 250 but even though she is a supp. Aka active abilities.

Even then early one her dmg is irrelevant. Later on everyone deals more dmg than her.

Still without boots you lose some strong passives like lower summoner spells cd.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 21, 20173 votes

When they're actually unhealthy, and need to be addressed.

Janna's ultimate is a fucking ultimate, with a long cooldown.

Lulu's polymorph is designed to stop you from doing crap. You might as well be bitching about summoner 3 .

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

qss

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-21T11:27:41.868+0000)

qss

Locket,Redemption,Vow, Shield, heal abilities, barrier, lifesteal, zhonya, hexdrinker, nullifying ADC can get qss to, death dance, phantom dancer

assassins dont always have luxury for that item, they have to make sure their target dies. Thats their number 1 priority

You get in a fight with Riven. you qss the polymorph and then you die while you are knocked up from wildgrowth

ThefrostyvikingNov 21, 20171 votes

Riven doesn't die that fast unless the marksman is hella fed, or is vayne or draven.

And she can cancel literally any non point and click CC like polymorph in the entire game, Riven is the last champ you should complain about CC on.

She can cancel blitz hook, nauti ulti, ashe arrow, pretty much anything.

And supports+tanks+marksmen are supposed to be the ultimate lategame champions, and a few mages.

The rest of the mages are directly below that.

Then we have divers and juggernauts.

After that we have dedicated early champs and assassins sharing a rock bottom spot on the list of whats good in the lategame.

While debateable if it's a good design the truth is that if you fail to snowball carry as a assassin then your chances of winning the game drop by as much as 10-20% depending on your teamcomp.

Because as an assassin you won't be anywhere near as effective as a mage in a teamcomp, no utility or AOE or CC to match at all.

Nor will you have the sheer DPS that marksmen bring, or....support stuff or durability to soak damage like tanks, initiate or lock down carries.

Assassins are the weakest class in the game if they do not snowball,when playing against organized people, by design.

This is why they are hardly ever played in the pro games whenever supports or tanks are good.

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

Why are you trying to 1 v 2, logically if you pick a 1 v 2 you should lose. Ask a teammate to help you, a tank to cc the adc or another dive champ, its harder to peel 2 champs rather then 1. And if you cant don't pick the fight. saying I cant kill the adc cuz of support fine, why should u be able to if she is being assisted and you are not. (team game for once adc aren't just a, sivir ult, kali ult, ahse ult).

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2017-11-21T17:06:46.690+0000)

Why are you trying to 1 v 2, logically if you pick a 1 v 2 you should lose. Ask a teammate to help you, a tank to cc the adc or another dive champ, its harder to peel 2 champs rather then 1. And if you cant don't pick the fight. saying I cant kill the adc cuz of support fine, why should u be able to if she is being assisted and you are not. (team game for once adc aren't just a, sivir ult, kali ult, ahse ult).

alright what if I told you

Twitch + janna have an even chance vs 4 champions not including ADC in thisg roup

Regardless assassins need to go through gimmicks to fullfil their assassination

Where as janna/lulu just point and click their adc while adc point and clicks you

you ll rarely see ADC alone in high elo. Their slaves are always with them

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

how are you losing 4 v 2 at all?

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T17:28:56.704+0000)

how are you losing 4 v 2 at all?

At what elo are you?

ADC counts as 3 realisticly its 4v4

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

so malphite ult onto twitch, followed by zed ult, with a liss ult, and braum blocking aa's u still lose. you might have a bigger problem with you team comps.

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T17:41:34.758+0000)

so malphite ult onto twitch, followed by zed ult, with a liss ult, and braum blocking aa's u still lose. you might have a bigger problem with you team comps.

Such a wierd teamcomp.

note how you cherry picked best examples Best engage in a game Malphite Good assassin Zed Instat lockdown And windwall for twitch ulti

That team would get crushed due to irelevant jungler malphite jungle??? ?

If twitch flashes malphite ultimate and QSS liss ultimate they can easly 2vs4 that

And what makes you think that malphite and lissandra would be the one engaging do they have stealth XD?

This is how it would look like if twitch opens fire with janna shield and her behind him

Zed dashes away due to losing 80% of hp in 1 sec, Malphite does ulti twitch, lissandra ultis herself in place in order to survive, braum isnt sure what to do

I can already see it...

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

so twitch is the problem not janna and lulu. I agree with that, other then his laning phase is god terrible awful.

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=000200000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-21T17:55:20.753+0000)

so twitch is the problem not janna and lulu. I agree with that, other then his laning phase is god terrible awful.

I ll give you a personal tier list

Twitch,tristana,xayah,ezreal tier -3 Kog,kalista tier -2.5 Jinx,vayne,cait,draven tier -2 Varus tier (outlcassed by jinx due to less tank junglers) - 1.5 Ashe,MF and others tier -1

Midlane

0 tier 0 champions
tier 1 Anivia, Orianna, malzahar (strong non roamers), Taliyah, Sol, Twisted fate, le blanc, katarina (roamers since the only thing which matters is ADC)

Note how no champions go below 0

Toplane

tier 0 (Used to bevery aery abuser) now it is just gangplank maybe maokai
everything else feels like tier 2 or less compared to other roles

Maybe ranged overlord jayce is tier 1, who knows where gnar stands

Support

Tier -1 Lulu,janna, sona( there is no favorism towards her by riot nerfs already prepared and she is less cancerous then other 2) Tier 0 soraka,leona Tier 1 nami,rakan,thresh

Note what Point I am trying to make Everything which is above tier 2 needs to be addressed,

ADC as a whole are to influencal class

Each role should have 20% influence on the game. ADC have around 37% imo and supports augment that further

Just because twitch is a problem and has been for roughtly 20 (noobs ll say 10) patches now doesnt mean that lulu/janna arent a problem

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

veil stop the knock back, along with black shield.

PoskeNov 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Minion hunt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WFb0AZEE,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-11-21T17:29:51.811+0000)

veil stop the knock back, along with black shield.

Funny how you mention black shield

What if I told you that Morgana is 3rd least powerful champion in a game after garen and volibear

Recently won an extremly high elo game 4vs5 game which lasted 1 hour My adc died 26 times or so MY support left at level 6 because my ADC inted (Saw 1 instance)

And we won.

I can guarantee you if they had anything other then morgana I wouldnt be able to carry a 4vs5

So can we like not mention Morgana black shields or anything morgana related in a thread where we are talking about champions who are roughly 17 tiers above her THX

Banshee veil is good. However its buildpath is ugh not...

The Minion huntNov 21, 20171 votes

so you won a 4 v 5 where your support left and won but at the moment we are talking about 2 supports. These champs excel at something, keep adc alive. Why should zed be any more important then the support.