@Meddler, does Riot have any plans to do somethign about hard engage supports?

SpecterVonBaren·Mar 1, 2016·2 votes·808 views

Hard engage supports have been on top for almost two seasons now and the poke playstyle has been dead for about as long. Relic shield has been part of the problem since it does what other support items don't, reduces the power of a weakness, spellthief gives more ap and poke to sups that have that playstyle and coin gives safety and sustain for sups that want to just be passive but relic shield doesn't enhance all in supports playstyle, it gets rid of their weakness to poke.

Are there any plans to make utility supports more attractive for use in the future?

28 Comments

VeraskaMar 1, 20165 votes

I don't really see utility supports in a bad spot, Janna is one of the strongest supports In the game atm and soraka is banned pretty frequently (at least in my games)

Braum and Alistair are both really popular right now but I don't think they're stopping people from playing more utility oriented supports I think a big part of it is the playerbase, a large number of players prefer to play engage or CC oriented supports because there impact is more tangible then the healing/buffer style, so the tanky style will be preferred by players unless the poke style is just statistically way stronger

The only utility focuses support I can see people thinking is weak is sona and that's because her power is really hard to appreciate (even for a support) unless she's super overtuned

AbyssphereMar 1, 20162 votes

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I don't really see utility supports in a bad spot, Janna is one of the strongest supports In the game atm and soraka is banned pretty frequently (at least in my games)

Braum and Alistair are both really popular right now but I don't think they're stopping people from playing more utility oriented supports I think a big part of it is the playerbase, a large number of players prefer to play engage or CC oriented supports because there impact is more tangible then the healing/buffer style, so the tanky style will be preferred by players unless the poke style is just statistically way stronger

The only utility focuses support I can see people thinking is weak is sona and that's because her power is really hard to appreciate (even for a support) unless she's super overtuned

The prominence of Soraka and Janna is evidence that there's a tank support meta, because they both excel against tank supports and struggle against other mages. Same story for Morgana and Bard.

If the only mage supports that are decent are the ones who are able to deal with tanks then that's just more evidence that there's a problem. There are a lot of mage supports who go even with or actively struggle against tanks - are they going to be out of meta forever?

VeraskaMar 1, 20162 votes

And here I thought soraka was supposed to be weak against all in style tanks and she was overtuned.

And kinda? Depends what kinda mage supports your talking about, like annie and zyra? Or sona and Karma?

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

Someone pointed out to me the other day that the only reason Janna is so strong is because she's specifically deigned to counter hard engage supports. Soraka is banned because of the flaw of her spammable heal being so powerful that it shuts down both poke AND hard engage. But supports like Nami, Sona, (support) Lulu and Karma are not seen as much because the risk of using them doesn't match or outweigh the reward.

Why play one of those supports when a single hook from Thresh can guarantee a kill for his ADC? Those kinds of supports are expected to constantly be interacting in order to reach their maximum efficiency but tanky engage sups only need to sit back and wait for one opportunity to guarantee their team's success.

VeraskaMar 1, 20163 votes

Lulu isn't played bot because she's way better in the solo lanes right now, Karma while unpopular in genral is probably the same in this aspect.

As for nami and sona they're sustain supports and are ussually supposed to Lose to engage supports and yet they have 2 of the highest winrates in the entire role (only behind janna) even if they are only played by dedicated mains they should be in bottom if the meta so heavily out favors them and tanks are so much stronger then them

Them not being in meta isn't because they are weak, it's because the playerbase prefers to play engage focused supports, and will continue to prefer it unless mage supports are so overtuned that you're actually hindering your team if you don't pick one

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

So why is it that hard engage supports have been allowed to be the most popular choices for two years now? They haven't been meta for years and Riot hasn't don anything to to try and adjust this.

Lulu also isn't just picked solo lane because she scales with AP, it's because she's a liability bot lane when there's so much burst on ADC's while also being such hard lockdown. Riot could knock Lulu out of solo lane viability with a simple change of reducing her Q damage to minions but they don't because it would knock her out of play altogether and then they'd have to admit they need to buff her and other poke/utility supports.

VeraskaMar 1, 20162 votes

Maybe, I don't think she'd just vanish we still see lulu played bot in pro play, it's just optimal to get gold on her,

And its because even tho tank supports have been preferred for so long they don't crowd out other picks, despite what your saying pure utility supports do fine right now (excluding lulu, whose power has to be lower considering how strong she is in pro play)

Honestly if they buffed frost queens and nerfed targons I expect people would just start playing annie and vel'koz bot in Alistairs place before they went to nami, utility isn't as visceral as burst/CC

It's not a tuning thing, the utility support playstyle just doesn't appeal to a majority of the playerbase so even when they're balanced, the alternatives will be preferred

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

But it is a tunning thing, they could do something simple like reduce the health regen of tanky hard engage sups by half and give all the utility supports 50 more auto-attack range and it could see an increase in their play because harass sticks better and they can harass a little safer.

Ask yourself WHY hard engage sups are appealing. I argue that it's because they're easy. Build tanky so you don't have to worry about positioning a much, and simple patterns of success, just land your engage ability and you can follow up with the rest of your spells and your ADC. A lot more time and effort has to be put into a squishy utility sup because a single all in from the enemy can not only undue all your work but can be done easily and with less risk.

VeraskaMar 1, 20162 votes

So nerf a class across the board and buff another class significantly even when they have relatively the same amount of success In games, based on nothing but popularity disparity, all your doing is making utility supports popular by making them blatantly the superior choice with numbers, people won't start playing them more because they want to play utility,they'll do it because they don't want to lose.

As for your question you say people play it because it's easy I think it's because I feel like I have higher agency, a nautilus hook is way more appealing to me then jannas AD bonus on her shield, you feel like your own champion with your own strengths instead of a walking stat boost for your carries

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

Numbers can be adjusted but I see no reason not to enhance the weakness of an entire class of champs that clearly aren't as inhibited by this supposed weakness as they should be. And so you'd rather have hard engage supports be the most popular because they are blatantly superior? The entire reason people don't pick utility sups is because they don't want to lose, what is wrong with wanting them to close the gap? You act like I suggested they gut all the engage sups.

VeraskaMar 1, 20162 votes

They're superiority is only a product of player perception. they're popular because they're more fun then utility supports. If tanky engage supports are legitimately overtuned then the squishy supports who they counter wouldn't have equal or even higher winrates, they'd be In the dumpster with urgot and nunu.

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

Except I remember a time when utility supports were just as popular as tanky engage supports and that was even back before Thresh was nerfed over and over again to make him not picked in every game.

Consider the fact that melee champs are, except for a few exceptions, given mr per level while ranged champs are not. This is because they have an inherent weakness due to being melee and the mr is meant to help them deal with ranged harass from mages. There are multiple examples of classes being given more or less stats to balance them out with the way the rest of the game works. If only dedicated players of utility supports are willing to play them then it seems clear that this is a Class issue that should be addressed in some way and since Riot doesn't want utility sups to go solo laning then increasing the weaknesses of their counters would be the best way to get them to see play.

VeraskaMar 1, 20161 votes

When did riot say they didn't want utility supports to go solo lane? Lulu is the perfect example of that

Supports going into so lanes have been nerfed in the past plenty but never because they were supports but because they were too strong or had unhealthy lane interactions (old soraka was really oppressive and janna mid could CS from long range under tower which is inappropriate for a champion with her much self peel)

There was a time when utility mages were used more but I think that was before the changes to the support role a few seasons back, gold flow has increased and you're not expected to only have tier 1 boots and wards only, now that people can get gold and buy items in the support role the gold agnostic power of utility is less valued, not because it's weak, it's statistically balanced, it's just harder to appreciate then damage

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

Soraka, Janna, and Lulu were all nerfed for their solo lane capabilities.

I still don't know why Riot is okay with Lulu being used in a solo lane though. And I once again disagree that this issue is just because of perception, it's because why bother giving utility to someone when you can just lock someone down long enough for them to kill? Why pick a squishy sup when you risk getting burst down instantly when you can pick a tank with similar utility that can survive burst?

VeraskaMar 1, 20161 votes

Yes I mentioned all 3 of those supports and note they weren't nerfed because they were supports, they were nerfed because they were either oppressive or super low interaction, lulu is a support in the solo lanes that's healthy and viable, and your point about why you would pick utility other CC, that's the exact perception, statistically squishy utility supports are equal or slightly better then there tanky engage counterparts, but everyone thinks that tanky innitiation are way better, that's not a numbers thing (the numbers disprove this actually) that's the player base perception.

Being a utility/buffer/healer has always felt lackluster even when it's strong because your power is expressed through your teammates which is less appealing in a competitive game

IRFodderMar 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see utility supports in a bad spot, Janna is one of the strongest supports In the game atm and soraka is banned pretty frequently (at least in my games)

Braum and Alistair are both really popular right now but I don't think they're stopping people from playing more utility oriented supports I think a big part of it is the playerbase, a large number of players prefer to play engage or CC oriented supports because there impact is more tangible then the healing/buffer style, so the tanky style will be preferred by players unless the poke style is just statistically way stronger

The only utility focuses support I can see people thinking is weak is sona and that's because her power is really hard to appreciate (even for a support) unless she's super overtuned

I honestly believe Alistar and Braum are one of deciding factors, braum has the ability to negate massive amounts of poke with welfare or no items at all and alistar can engage and do the same, leonas damage reducion via w actually reduces very little without items and her damage mitigation comes from her stuns when she doesn't have items, meanwhile poke supports get the short end of the stick needing all the gold they can find to stay relevent and do their designated "job". It's why they are so popular, you literally need boots and a sight stone on ali and braum and you're good for 80% of the game.

LuggMar 1, 20163 votes

Right now the highest rated supports are Janna Nami Sona Blitzcrank Braum according to champion.gg.

The only ones who MIGHT be considered hard engage are Blitz, but he pulls the opponent into your team, or Braum and that's IF his flash is up. Utility supports see just as much play right now as the tanky ones.

Disengage supports are WAY stronger than engage ones at the moment.

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

In order of popularity.

Thresh Janna** Alistar Braum Morgana Blitzcrank Leona** Soraka Bard Nautilus _Nami Lulu Sona _

These are the most played supports above 5% playrate, of those, the only utility supports that are more played than a hard engage sup are Janna, Soraka, and Bard, and Soraka and Bard only beat out one champion, Nautilus. Soraka also isn't really about her overall utility, it's about how spamming W stagnates everything during laning phase, I'd consider her more of an aberration due to a lack of counterplay than a true example.

Fewer people play the utility supports than the hard engage ones. The only one that has a huge playrate over the hard engage sups is Janna and she specifically counters hard engage. You also have to consider who the utility sups are being picked against. If utility sups only ever got picked against other utility sups then their winrate wouldn't even be an indicator that they are in a good spot because it would mean they aren't picked into matchups that they will lose and logic would dictate that the most played support champs are the ones that you don't pick these low playrate supports into.

LuggMar 1, 20161 votes

Nautilus and Leona are the ONLY hard engage supports that have a win rate of 50% and higher. The win rates of utility supports is MUCH better. It's clearly a case of people playing hard engage because it's Flavor of the Month and not because they are actually better.

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20161 votes

Aatrox has a winrate of 50% which would make you think he's a balanced champion but most people, even his mains, will still tell you that he's trash. Also take into account that this winrate is with a playrate of less than half a percent. Playrate is an important thing to look at when thinking about whether a champion is balanced or not.

Sir YamazukiMar 1, 20162 votes

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Aatrox has a winrate of 50% which would make you think he's a balanced champion but most people, even his mains, will still tell you that he's trash. Also take into account that this winrate is with a playrate of less than half a percent. Playrate is an important thing to look at when thinking about whether a champion is balanced or not.

Actually, not really. If any unpopular champion was suddenly used in the lcs their pick rate would increase depending on how often they get picked and people would be complaining about how broken they are. This has happened many times in the past. People post on forums about how garbage a champion is but then either a skin is released for them so people start using them and realize they are strong, or the pros start using them so people copy them. Thresh is popular but people with hundreds of games only win less than 51% of the time, meanwhile other utility/sustain/mage supports win that often with less than 5 games with some increasing up to 55~60%.

Ezreal multiple times was seen as garbage but then got pfe and everyone changed their mind, then it happened again recently after preseason but then again once he started being picked nearly every game people changed their minds and wanted him nerfed instead. People never appreciate the strengths a champion may have until they are picked frequently.

If you think buffing or nerfing purely based on popularity is a good thing, then that means you were supportive of the silly Xin buffs.

SpecterVonBarenMar 2, 20161 votes

No, actually many champions will get a skin, see a little bit of play and then drop back off the map, just like Aatrox did with his last skin. Even when Urgot was picked mid against Zed last season, you didn't suddenly see an influx of Urgot players, nor did we see a surge in popularity of Yorick when he was picked in the LCS.

Ezreal also benefited from item changes and small buffs to himself, the biggest change and the main driving force behind his current popularity is due solely to the revamped Iceborn Gauntlet.

Peh, when did I say I'm in favor of buffing or nerfing just due to popularity? But it's true the utility supports have been losing favor for a long time, I remember when I first started playing that Nami was picked a lot in competitive but she's slowly but surely just disappeared along with the other poke/utility supports. Anyone can tell you that Urgot and Yorick are in bad spots just by looking at how they've been in the gutter for so long and through so many meta shifts that you can tell that they need kit reworks bad. Utility sups have been falling out of favor for two years, SOMETHING should be done to get them back on the same level as hard engage sups.

Sir YamazukiMar 2, 20161 votes

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No, actually many champions will get a skin, see a little bit of play and then drop back off the map, just like Aatrox did with his last skin. Even when Urgot was picked mid against Zed last season, you didn't suddenly see an influx of Urgot players, nor did we see a surge in popularity of Yorick when he was picked in the LCS.

Ezreal also benefited from item changes and small buffs to himself, the biggest change and the main driving force behind his current popularity is due solely to the revamped Iceborn Gauntlet.

Peh, when did I say I'm in favor of buffing or nerfing just due to popularity? But it's true the utility supports have been losing favor for a long time, I remember when I first started playing that Nami was picked a lot in competitive but she's slowly but surely just disappeared along with the other poke/utility supports. Anyone can tell you that Urgot and Yorick are in bad spots just by looking at how they've been in the gutter for so long and through so many meta shifts that you can tell that they need kit reworks bad. Utility sups have been falling out of favor for two years, SOMETHING should be done to get them back on the same level as hard engage sups.

Neither of them were being picked frequently. Which is why I said depending on how often they were picked. Perhaps you should read everything rather than reading what you want to actually read. Not only do pick rates and ban rates change based on whether a champion is popular in the pro scene, but what champions build or what lanes they go in are impacted based on the pro scene or what higher elo players suggest, and it doesn't have to be something that originated from western players. A lot of ideas start at the top and work their way down. Most recent example is Akali, she's now played top as a bruiser rather than an assassin based on what was going on in a different region and now people are doing it because the success of the build was brought to our attention.

Both Ezreal and Iceborn were nerfed after preseason, not buffed. Their changes were in 5.22, the complaints about Ezreal's "poor" performance was after these changes in regards to how adcs would perform during Season 6. When Lucian and Ezreal had their pick rates go up and being used by the pros a lot people blamed Thunderlords even though both win more often with Fervor. People weren't annoyed with ibg Ezreal until his pick rate went beyond 30% and ibg became the standard build seeing as people were originally building essence reaver and such over ibg. So, like I said the first time, people don't appreciate what a champion is capable of doing until they are picked frequently.

You're asking Riot "to do something" based on pick rates. Which means buffing or nerfing based on popularity.

DehitayMar 1, 20162 votes

Have you actually played a hard engage support? They should be more powerful when they go in cause what they do is 10 times as dangerous as what your mage supports do. If they only had the same amount of effect while increasing their chances of getting killed by a significant amount, it would be stupid as hell to play them. The fact that you say "a hook garuntees a kill" is really all the proof I need to know you don't actually play Thresh. Unless you're talking about obvious kills situations that absolutely every champ in the game has. If your lane is 10 kills ahead and the enemy adc is at half health, then yeah a hook is a garunteed kill, but so is a Morgana snare.

And relic shield is by no means better than the other support options. Hell, it's probly the worst. It can go above coin in gold gen if you use it right, but the other team pretty much has to be nice enough to allow you to use it effectively without beating your butt in for it. And it will never provide as much gold as spellthief. Then both other items give crazy mana regen allowing skill spam while relic users can't be as hit and miss happy. Mages can just throw their skills out as soon as they come up with no worry cause they'll regen the mana soon. Tanks have to wait for a significantly high chance of landing their skills. And for some reason I absolutely cannot understand, the red eyestone is the only one that doesn't give CDR, which is incredibly annoying since red support items are going to be converted to eyestone more often.

QuephaMar 1, 20161 votes

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Hard engage supports have been on top for almost two seasons now and the poke playstyle has been dead for about as long.

He says as Janna wins 54% of games for the last 6 months

SpecterVonBarenMar 2, 20161 votes

Because Janna specifically counters hard engage....

QuephaMar 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because Janna specifically counters hard engage....

So hard engage is on top except for the stuff that beats it? That sounds like it isn't on top.

SpecterVonBarenMar 2, 20161 votes

Most tanks are meant to be weak to DPS but Rammus is one of the top champions at the moment because he specifically counters heavy auto-attack based champs and team comps with a lot of AD on them. But just because Rammus, a tank, is strong right now doesn't mean the entire class he is a part of is just as strong.