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Rammus: Not okay.

darkdill··29 votes·6,091 views
Champion.gg - Rammus Jungle Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

He might be around a 50% winrate, but being ranked 41/42 among the junglers tells me something is wrong with Rammus. In fact, I think I need to list some points about Rammus that I find make him under-par.

  • Bad jungle clear speed, even with Cinderhulk
  • Predictable ganks that can be countered with minion waves, walls, CC's, etc.
  • Armor reduction effect from E taunt isn't useful
  • Tremors damage versus turrets too low to be considered threatening
  • Over-reliance on DBC for both damage and defense
  • Armor-shredding effects (i.e. Black Cleaver, Wukong's Q) are more damaging to Rammus than most

Yes, Rammus works well against high AD compositions, but even those can beat him with BC and LW since Armor is a trap stat (compared to health). Add on that Riot doesn't help out his niche much (anti-physical split-push-capable tank), and Rammus just keeps getting left in the dust.

Meddler (or someone else from Riot), can we have some discussion about our Armordillo? What holds him back from being "good" rather than "meh"?

#Suggestions

  • Remove the armor reduction debuff from Puncturing Taunt and replace it with a new debuff, or change it to reduce a percentage of the target's armor instead of a flat amount.
  • Improve Tremors so it deals modest bonus damage against turrets, or adjust Tremors to include an armor ratio.
  • Improve Defensive Ball Curl to deal 20-25% bonus damage versus monsters.

58 Comments

Very Hard Engage16 votes

they reduced his taunt from 3 seconds to 2.25seconds and increased the CD on his Q, thats whats wrong.

it feels like i dont get anything at all when i build CDR, i still end up using taunt once, maybe twice in a fight, and forget about doing anything other than flash taunt a meaningful target, its just too easy for him to be knocked out of the fight or outright CC'd.

rammus is best at coming from a flank straight at the adc, taunting, and brawling him down to super low health or killing him, he just doesn't do any of that anymore.

what rammus needs right now is increased clear speed in the jungle, then we would actually see him, its the only thing preventing players from trying to utilize his knockup and taunt. hes just too slow and too far behind the rest of the junglers

CreationFlaw4 votes

I mean, 15 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 (+ 10% armor) + thornmail destroys ad carries

darkdill3 votes

It does, but a Bloodthirster and LW on that ADC still let them circumvent a lot of that thorns damage. And if those two fail, a Banshee's Veil or Guardian Angel reduce the magic damage dealt by the thorns.

kile1471 votes

Which is why I like to build item 3074 because they might be able to prevent themselves from dying from the thorns, but no way can they survive the 250 AD autos as well, or make it past your AoE lifesteal when you have 350 armor.

Gunpoint1 votes

{quoted}

It does, but a Bloodthirster and LW on that ADC still let them circumvent a lot of that thorns damage. And if those two fail, a Banshee's Veil or Guardian Angel reduce the magic damage dealt by the thorns.

Also lifesteal.

PVPMage1 votes

it reflects damage before mitigation, thornmail dont give no craps about LW now if you want to ignore thornmail, get wits end, helps immensly (it is its true counter)

Lynxonyx1 votes

{quoted}

I mean, 15 / 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 (+ 10% armor) + thornmail destroys ad carries

Yeah, but when you face an AP heavy team you literally can do nothing.

CreationFlaw1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but when you face an AP heavy team you literally can do nothing.

Can't deny that.

LittleBlast1 votes

Take challenging smite if your up against a heavy ap team, it allows you to deal massive damage with that and your ult while still being able to stack MR

brad1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but when you face an AP heavy team you literally can do nothing.

so dont pick a champion who thrives against ad teams and struggles against ap teams into a place where he shouldnt be

DeusVult2 votes

ITS CALLED A NICHE

Anidan3 votes

This is League; niche's aren't allowed. If my champion isn't usable in every single meta ever, then they need buffs and changes to fit that meta.

Kappa.

kile1471 votes

He's not supposed to... If you want an anti-AP tank use Galio or Maokai since they both build MR as a core stat. If Rammus can get away with not building MR he is at his strongest since his ideal build is basically item 3725, item 3143, item 3075 , item 3074, item 3071, and item 3047/item 3117 . He can certainly build a little MR if he needs to, but he's supposed to be a counter to AD heavy teams and if you're taking him against AP then you either got counterpicked, or you chose poorly.

ayNigerianPrince1 votes

{quoted}

He's not supposed to... If you want an anti-AP tank use Galio or Maokai since they both build MR as a core stat. If Rammus can get away with not building MR he is at his strongest since his ideal build is basically item 3725, item 3143, item 3075 , item 3074, item 3071, and item 3047/item 3117 . He can certainly build a little MR if he needs to, but he's supposed to be a counter to AD heavy teams and if you're taking him against AP then you either got counterpicked, or you chose poorly.

I've never even though of building hydra. I suppose it would help with his clear speeds and make him do a good deal of damage, not to mention the sustain.

kile1471 votes

Really it's the sustain that makes it good, since not only can their AD champs barely hurt you, but if you're fed enough you can actively heal off them. It's how you make his passive into more than just a DPS boost.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but when you face an AP heavy team you literally can do nothing.

And Veigar's ult sucks against AD heavy teams. Champions have team comps they're better and worse against.

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

And Veigar's ult sucks against AD heavy teams. Champions have team comps they're better and worse against.

Veigar Ult still deals serious damage. Rammus W and E does nothing to AP and Tank champions except disable them. Which is good and all, but its single target and very short range.

This is League; niche's aren't allowed. If my champion isn't usable in every single meta ever, then they need buffs and changes to fit that meta.

Kappa.

Niches are fine. Its what everyone should have. However, you can still have a niche and be at least viable in every form of meta. Rammus is actually less viable in Tank meta than others since now he lost his main thing over other Tanks; damage.

GrayZer03 votes

Amumu Are you okay Rammus? Rammus Nope. Amumu Whats wrong? Rammus Need a buff. Amumu Im sorry Rammus, I wish I could help. Gragas Here Rammus, have a cold one on me. Rammus Okay. TahmKench Now that I'm here you can forget about that buff. They will just focus on the bugged champions and myself. Amumu Don't be so mean... Gragas Those words are call for a beatin if ye ask me! Amumu Meanie! TahmKench Ow! stop plx! ;-; Amumu That's what you get for costing 7800 IP! Gragas You may be a good fighter but ye aint worth That much. Rammus I still need a buff....

Only Play Darius2 votes

{quoted}

Armor is a trap stat.

Stopped reading here.

Sammystorm2 votes

Wait what. Armor is not a trap stat.

Meep Man2 votes

The problem with Rammus is he is insanely reliant on the ENEMY team composition. If they have someone like, say, Tryndamere or Jax, he will do pretty good. If they have, say, Diana, Fiddlesticks, or another Tank, he is gonna do poorly. Now this isn't an extremely bad thing that should be removed because that is Rammus' thing. However, I feel like he could be a little better when there isn't a preferable match up.

Bad jungle clear speed, even with Cinderhulk Predictable ganks that can be countered with minion waves, walls, CC's, etc. Armor reduction effect from E taunt isn't useful Tremors damage versus turrets too low to be considered threatening Over-reliance on DBC for both damage and defense Armor-shredding effects (i.e. Black Cleaver, Wukong's Q) are more damaging to Rammus than most

These are the said problems. Some are legitimate and should stay, but some could be changed.

Q- Powerball

  • E during Powerball extends the range of E by 150/175/200/225/250
  • Using E during Powerball now causes Rammus to perform a short dash, going through other targets, to his target

W- Defensive Ball Curl

  • Rammus now passively reflects 10/15/20/25/30 (+5% armor) when attacked when out of Powerball
  • Attack Base Damage increased to 20/30/40/50/60 from 15/25/35/45/55
  • Monsters that are taunted now take 25% increased damage from Defensive Ball Curl reflect

E- Puncturing Taunt

  • Instead of lasting 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25 seconds, now lasts until the target has executed 1/2/3/4/5 basic attacks; up to a max of 2.5 seconds
  • Target now gains 50% attack speed while taunted and has on-attack effects disabled while taunting (Runnan's, Lulu Passive, etc.) (Note: Rammus still takes 50% less damage from basic attacks)
  • If Rammus moves more than 350 units away from the target, the taunt is instantly ended

R- Tremors

  • Base Damage rescaled to 95/130/165 from 65/130/195
  • Cool Down changed to 75/60/45 seconds from 60 seconds at all ranks
  • Now passively increases causes Rammus to gain 30/40/50% of the armor and magic resist given by Defensive Ball Curl while it isn't active
  • Structures now take 100/125/150% damage
darkdill1 votes

Nice ideas, though I imagine Riot would use different numbers.

I wouldn't go with the "disables on-hit effects" effect for Rammus' E. That'd be absolutely broken against Vayne, Varus, etc., and would be considered toxic mechanics since it'd disable lifesteal from working against Rammus. Instead of that, I'd go with "increases your target's attack speed, but causes their basic attacks to deal half damage to you while taunted". That's more like Shen and Galio.

I do like the "lasts until X attacks" part, though the maximum duration should be 2.5 seconds. And I'd give more leeway for the maximum taunt distance; 275 is very short range, such that the Rammus player could accidentally break the taunt way too easily, so I'd go with something more like 400-450. That way, someone really needs to knock you away from your target to break the taunt.

As for the ultimate, I think it should just be "deals 150% bonus damage to structures" at all ranks, as towers have 100 MR already, which cuts Rammus' listed Tremors damage in half. The passive would not work, though, as it'd give Rammus invisible pushing power. I'd also like to see Tremors get some kind of armor ratio like Malphite gets on his E and W.

MeesterMoo1 votes

Rammus is actually a very viable top. I mean I know it's about the jg, but I thought I'd just throw it out there.

LittleBlast1 votes

I know righr? Do you go Tp/smite or what do you do?

MeesterMoo1 votes

I go with TP and Flash usually.

LittleBlast1 votes

Try tp smite and get challenging smite, its really strong.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I'm not really sure what you think you are saying... Who rates him 41/42 with a win rate of 50%? 50% is a VERY healthy win rate for a champ to have. It's what every champion SHOULD have if the game is balanced perfectly.

So... the only thing I conclude from that is that Rammus is incredibly balanced. That doesn't mean he's fun, or healthy, or anything else. But it does mean he's balanced. Buffs would lead to him being OP.

Now, tie that up with a question and NO SUGGESTIONS for how to improve this well-balanced champ, and you've got yourself a VERY confusing post. He is in a good place, looks like to me.

Even your points about his weaknesses are incredibly strange to me. What is Zz'rot portal, if it isn't a split push item for tanks? But, almost a counter to my own point, who thinks Rammus is a split pusher? His taunt almost demands that he have back-up from allies, and when he does, he's one heck of a teamfighter. Armor is NOT a trap stat at all; ADCs being able to beat it LATE GAME was ALWAYS a part of the design philosophy behind having carries in the game. If you don't like that, don't play league, because it's always going to be that way. Tanks shouldn't outtank a full item carry. If they could, 5 man tank squads would be the only correct comp.

darkdill1 votes

Whenever someone makes suggestions in their opening post on these boards, they tend to provoke pitchfork/torch mobs.

Additionally, Rammus' winrate doesn't mean everything. The issue is that he's mediocre-at-best as a jungler, and there are tons of other picks that outperform him.

Just because he has an okay winrate doesn't mean he can't be improved. But if you want suggestions, here are my two cents.

  • Remove the armor reduction debuff from Puncturing Taunt and replace it with a new debuff, or change it to reduce a percentage of the target's armor instead of a flat amount.
  • Improve Tremors so it deals modest bonus damage against turrets, or adjust Tremors to include an armor ratio.
  • Improve Defensive Ball Curl to deal 20-25% bonus damage versus monsters.

There, those could help Rammus.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I just strictly disagree that he's mediocre. Again, you can say he's unhealthy if you want, but a 50% win rate is balanced, technically, by definition. We could break that down by tier of play if we had those stats, and perhaps get more insight into whether or not those stats continue to hold up.

I guess what I meant by bringing that up is that a 50% win rate is BY NO MEANS evidence of ANY problems. I don't think it is beneficial to your argument.

And I maintain that buffs will to lead to a great than 50% win rate. It's unwise to jump there based on the data you present, in my opinion.

Lynxonyx1 votes

I couldn't agree more. Rammus used to be my main champ, I used him to climb out of Silver in season 3. Forever he will have a special place in my heart, but damn, he really just isn't good anymore. He needs some love very much so.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

Man...ever since I joined and started maining jungle, Rammus has always been either very meta or very not-meta. He's so good thematically, you know? You almost can't help but love him. But he's kind of weird mechanically. His initiation is too single-target for a CC bot. His scaling doesn't really justify building damage, and it's actually counterintuitive to his passive to do so. He can splitpush well with his R, but who the hell uses a tank to splitpush?

From kit to characteristics, he's a total oddball...but to be honest, I kind of like that about him. I don't know if I really want to see anything changed.

mgprx4DXfG1 votes

DrMundo Shen item 3070 item 3070

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

He needs a legitimate passive since his current one is so lackluster. Galio is in the same boat in that regard (give spells an MR ratio and he can actually have a passive). Rammus is also gated by lack of mechanics and a super linear playstyle since he can only do ONE thing. There is nothing special about playing him since it's not like I can outplay someone as him outside of maybe stopping someone with a point and click taunt. He needs a rework more than anything.

ayNigerianPrince2 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W8cEwf2p,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-07-11T00:46:04.444+0000)

He needs a legitimate passive since his current one is so lackluster. Galio is in the same boat in that regard (give spells an MR ratio and he can actually have a passive). Rammus is also gated by lack of mechanics and a super linear playstyle since he can only do ONE thing. There is nothing special about playing him since it's not like I can outplay someone as him outside of maybe stopping someone with a point and click taunt. He needs a rework more than anything.

...his passive is actually pretty damn strong

mgprx4DXfG1 votes

As a support Rammus player, i've found myself securing first blood at level 3 90% of the time. He has a strong lane phase if you do W, E, Q in order.

Rew7111 votes

If he were to get more in his model and a new splash, he'd obviously be played more.

JimmyNtheKudos1 votes

He was so insanely dominant for a while there, the nerfs hit him hard. Wouldn't mind seeing this guy rolling around again in SR

LittleBlast1 votes

Can i just say, take challenging smite on him and watch as you burst down everything. I take rammus tp/smite toplane and have a ~70+% winrate

NorthernDruid1 votes

What if his Powerball knocked away minions, the same way Vi's ult knocks away champions in her way?

darkdill1 votes

Minions are meant to be the counterplay of Powerball when dealing with early Rammus ganks. Sorry, can't happen.

Though perhaps if he were to use it with Tremors, then maybe it could make him knock aside minions instead of stopping to them. But he'd have to use both his Q and ult together.

Ðucktales1 votes

what if while tremors is active and using powerball, tremors knocked aside enemy minions from rammus enough for him to powerball to his target for the gank. QoL buff

darkdill1 votes

That might work.

BakedLotion1 votes

Cause he somehow became fotm before and now they gutted him for no damn reason. He has so much counterplay in his kit it's not even funny.

Urgonnalearn2day1 votes

Subjective ranking is subjective and does not prove that a jungler is ACTUALLY 41/42 in effectiveness. Which is why the win rate doesn't mesh with that ranking. It also makes your entire premise very weak.

Ale non è male1 votes

The problem with bad jungle clear speed is when you start the game by putting the first point on Q. Start with W and it is fine, you must jsut follow the proper order when clearing jungle camps (don't go krug-> red or gromp-> blue directly, you need the smite in the first clears for anyone of these camps)

Over reliance on DBC for damage? For damage the most important thing is to hit your Q and E to force your enemy to attack you/stay in your range (Sunfire/Thornmail/Tremors), if you don't enemy can just ignore DBC

ponkzy1 votes

rammus is good top lane, rush homeguards and gank bot lane

dramatic banana1 votes

SHHHHHH! Rammus is Rammus OKRammus the way he is.

Icestar11861 votes

If he gets buffed, someone else will fall to his place on the tier list. Therefore, place on a tier list isn't valid logic.

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