Why is AD customization so much better than AP.

Call Me Nana·Jun 22, 2017·10 votes·1,195 views

Defensive wise mages get shit on in terms of customization.

AD has: this bullshit item which basically means you've lost lane because it literally just absorbs ults. wanna come back to life? why not, you're squishy right? oh wait but so are mages. wanna heal passively? but no spell vamp, sure. just manage your mana accrdingly, oh wait, you rely on auto attacks? sounds fun. a walking combination of zhonyas and banshees veil that can be activated at will. That also spots wards. Funny how mages need a red trinket.

mages get: gives you a little armour, but no useful active until the thing is complete, and it makes you a sitting target. the increased cooldown on the veil barrier is a nice change, but there's no control of when it goes off unlike edge of night. You can pop it with almost anything including ghosts. Hard engage and the mage usually loses.

I dont understand how this is fair and there hasnt been a solution to this yet.

32 Comments

Big LincolnJun 22, 20179 votes

because ap kits are stronger

meowwow7Jun 22, 20172 votes

and tend to do a bit more

ParoeJun 22, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W8X2MmAI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-22T05:51:55.545+0000)

because ap kits are stronger

point and click 2.5 total AD scaling ability with a 0.5s cooldown. No, AP kits are not stronger. Especially since AD kits often have higher base damages and the same or better scalings than AP kits.

The only upside to an AP kit is better resistance itemization, but then due to the sheer lack of strong AP options most AP kits are made up of item 3102 item 3157 item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 . Wanna know the equivalent items for AD? = item 3156 = item 3026 = item 3072 (Any 80AD item not named infinity edge really) = item 3031 = item 3036

1:1 the AD items are MUCH better if more build specific than their AP counterparts. AP itemization is... just more homogeneous and scales less.

Big LincolnJun 22, 20173 votes

point and click 2.5 total AD scaling ability with a 0.5s cooldown.

itemization.

No, AP kits are not stronger. Especially since AD kits often have higher base damages and the same or better scalings than AP kits.

AP kits are usually given crowd control and/or superior range to most ADs. AD kits have better scalings because there's more AP in the game.

SuperCosmicHoboJun 22, 20173 votes

Yes, and Jhin can 1 shot an ap champ late game

ParoeJun 22, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W8X2MmAI,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-22T06:10:48.695+0000)

itemization.

AP kits are usually given crowd control and/or superior range to most ADs. AD kits have better scalings because there's more AP in the game.

Sort of. 70+70+100+80+120. 440. 600 or so with deathcaps passive. Most AD champions get 300 or so AD. Most AD champions nowadays also have built in CC in some form too. The only difference between a mage and an AD at this point is their damage type, and AD champions have MUCH better access to ways which improve their damage type in the first place.

However, with marksman you need to include THEIR strengths as well since youre talking kits. My marksman build is as follows; item 3031 item 3094 item 3087 item 3508 item 3812 item 3006 . With runes and masteries this comes out to 320 or so AD with 2.05ASP.

This means that my marksman builds main ability has 0s cooldown (its actually less than 0... its like -1s or something. But for the sake of not bloating with math and attack delay, ill call it 0) and does 800 physical damage. 800. Let that sink in. A 100% crit build like that does 800 alpha. And thats not even counting energized damage, which procs every 8th attack and does an additional 540 magic damage.

SO. lets see how much burst i have. Burst in this case is defined as damage output in... lets say three seconds. 1s) 1940 2s) 3440 3s) 5140

5140 alpha in three seconds, not bad.

Now lets see how a 700AP lux fares. 810 on Q 660 on E 1025 on R 330 on passive Lux's full rotation deals; 2825. If i include that last auto since her R procs and refreshes, that number is bumped up to a whopping 3155.

Syndra? 775 on Q 720 on W 144 on W 600 on E 2240 on R (Maximum) Syndras full rotation deals 4479 damage. Only 1300 more than lux. In order to reach the same alpha as a marksman, syndra would need at least a hundred more AP.

While you do have a point that fighters and tanks are weaker from a scaling standpoint as mages do have higher scaling than them for the most part, AD itemization caters almost exclusively to assassins and marksman. Melee champions are meant to build a Hydra, Maw, GA, and/or black cleaver.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 22, 20171 votes

item 3812 80 ad

SuperCosmicHoboJun 22, 20171 votes

Tbh item 3165 = item 3033 and Idk why any ad champs like Draven throws one auto and heals up 500+ :/ literally heals up a whole ult.

Edge of DaybreakJun 22, 20176 votes

I'll take 800+ range spells with cc for 500 Alex.

rework trundleJun 22, 20172 votes

Make a mini-zhonya into seeker's armguard (to stay on-par with Hexdrinker) Something like : Active : Become untargetable for .5 sec, while keeping the ability to move(Karthus R and such still go through).

I don't know if mages need Spell vamp, but there's gunblade for this, if the champion's kit allows it. Artillery mages such as Ziggs and Xerath don't need it. Even though they are squishy, they can deal damage from far enough they usually stay healthy in teamfights.

Sir YamazukiJun 22, 20172 votes

AD items can't be built on every AD champion efficiently, where as Zhonyas and Banshees can be used on any mage/ap assassin. In reality those options for AD aren't available to every AD.

ThePikolJun 22, 20172 votes

The most frustrating is AD champs have a lot of items to defend from Mages while also dealing more dmg: item 3814 item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 and of course item 3812 While Mages has literally one item that gives AP + Armor: item 3157

TEA Nietzsche Jun 22, 20172 votes

Next time you make a thread try not to appear this biased:

wanna come back to life? why not, you're squishy right? oh wait but so are mages.

[...]

makes you a sitting target.

MHHHHHH

Also funny how your description of EON isn't "useless item, nobody buys it"

You've only looked at the downsides of AP items while also only looking at the upsides of AD items - geee, who would've thought that AD items upsides are better than AP items downsides.

Guess which one has the only dash item in the game, AP or AD: item 3152

Oh but this item clearly isn't AP, it's hybrid which is why all these AD champions like Leblanc build it: item 3146

Instantaneous %pen that is better than fully stacked BC but also cheap AF and gold efficient? Gotta be an AD item: item 3135

Wanna have 20% CDR without giving up damage for useless HP and also a nice grieveous wounds effect that you usually need another item for (an item that sacrifices damage because you can't build item 3036 ) - sure AD's have that too: item 3165

If an item had an AP and AD variation, wonder which one was stronger?: item 3040 item 3042

Aren't you too glad that Sword of the Occult was removed? Luckily Riot isn't biased towards AP itemization: item 3041

Disclaimer: I actually do not think that Riot is biased towards AP champions or that AP itemization is better. Both have up and downsides, but salt induced and heavily biased posts are simply destroying the discussion, I hope this post (that is written like yours only reversed) shows how flawed yours is.

LauchmelderJun 22, 20171 votes

Zhonyas gives you time to get your abilities off Cooldown.

GA grants you a second chance.

I would take GA over Zhonyas any day because my abilities go off cooldown on revive too.

TEA Nietzsche Jun 22, 20171 votes

No you (or rather: most AP champions) wouldn't.

Riot Repertoire:

We actually tested an AP version of the item as well (literally had an item named AD GA in the shop for testing at the same time as AP GA) because my gut told me that was fair as well. However, after a few weeks of testing, people almost always preferred to just have Zhonya's, and fighting against champions that had both AP GA and Zhonya's wasn't particularly fun (and it was very possible), and so I came to the conclusion it's not something that AP champions need, despite how appealing it sounds.

Meaning: if there was an AP GA it would either be so weak that people wouldn't get it at all or so strong that they'd get both GA and Zhonya (which is obviously unhealthy).

But I tell you what: I'll gladly trade GA for Zhonyas as a Riven main - just imagine flashing in with shield, getting your damage off, activating Zhonyas and then having your cooldowns back up as opposed to getting blown up and reviving with basically no HP (albeit CD's back up).

Every Caster champion (as in all AP champions and AD casters) prefers Zhonyas while only ADCs prefer GA.

LauchmelderJun 22, 20171 votes

To be fair though an AP GA would need a bigger tester Pool than just PBE.

I read his OP and actually thought this. PBE should be accessible to everyone, more people = more testing = more bugs and respective fixes.

HeresyHorusJun 22, 20171 votes

and fighting against champions that had both AP GA and Zhonya's wasn't particularly fun (and it was very possible)

but fighting an AD champ with both item 3156 item 3026 or item 3812 item 3046 is fun for sure. especially when u cant deny their passives with CC like u can do with item 3157 , being fool-proof adds to the fun factor when fighting them i guess.

Meaning: if there was an AP GA it would either be so weak that people wouldn't get it at all or so strong that they'd get both GA and Zhonya (which is obviously unhealthy).

AD champs can have any combination from those item 3156 item 3026 item 3812 item 3046 without sacrificing anything, but its healthy ofc cuz its AD.

TEA Nietzsche Jun 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

but fighting an AD champ with both or is fun for sure. especially when u cant deny their passives with CC like u can do with , being fool-proof adds to the fun factor when fighting them i guess.

Invulnerability is hardly comparable to damage reduction. Maw/DD/PD make it harder to kill a target, Zhonyas + GA literally make it impossible for quite a bit of time.

AD champs can have any combination from those without sacrificing anything, but its healthy ofc cuz its AD.

Obviously untrue. GA is obviously overtuned which is why it will get nerfed somewhat soon, but all of the other items have sacrifices or are even niche.

When it comes to ADC's Maw/hex is unpopular (unless there is a lot of magic damage) as they'd have to sacrifice stats and harshly delay their crit item spikes + lifesteal. GA is overtuned atm and will get nerfed soontm, DD is bought on very few champions (no, Fiora generally does not build it, BT is still better) as it is super expensive and still not a huge damage spike (compare it to GB) and PD would make you give up on the other crit items resulting in less range, burst and waveclear.

HeresyHorusJun 22, 20171 votes

Invulnerability is hardly comparable to damage reduction. Maw/DD/PD make it harder to kill a target, Zhonyas + GA literally make it impossible for quite a bit of time.

are u serious ? item 3157 last only for 2.5 sec and have huge downtime + can act agaisnt u when used badly or when caught alone. item 3812 item 3046 passives are permanent and completely fool-proof.

Obviously untrue. GA is obviously overtuned which is why it will get nerfed somewhat soon, but all of the other items have sacrifices or are even niche.

no, item 3026 item 3812 item 3046 dont have a niche, they are good on all AD champs ( even ad tanks ) ) and agaisnt both AD/AP cuz they are bloated with benefits and u hardly sacrifice anything building them. item 3156 is better against AP for sure but the passive life grip + 10% cdr comes in handy against AD champs too.

ADC's Maw/hex is unpopular

doesn't mean its unviable, and life grip give extra sustain + 20 AD for a total of 70 AD. and its actually better to rush item 3812 before item 3031 and it wont delay shit as item 1051 / item 1018 is all what u need to start the crit scaling.

finally, getting those items wont limit ur choices for example my ADC core build is item 3812 item 3046 item 3031 and than i am free to get what ever i want cuz that combo is so good it allow me to do so.

need more damage or tankyness ? it will synergies with item 3031 item 3046 item 3812 ALL AT ONCE.

need wave clear ? shove dat item 3087 in 1 slot and still have 2 free ones, but many ADCs have waveclear even better than mages.

TEA Nietzsche Jun 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

are u serious ? last only for 2.5 sec and have huge downtime + can act agaisnt u when used badly or when caught alone. passives are permanent and completely fool-proof.

"Only"2.5 seconds invulnerability is surely worse than a 1.5 second damage delay (DELAY =/= reduction). Killing someone through DD is easy when the team focuses well killing someone through Zhonyas is impossible. Zhonyas can be a game changer, DD not.

no, dont have a niche, they are good on all AD champs ( even ad tanks ) ) and agaisnt both AD/AP cuz they are bloated with benefits and u hardly sacrifice anything building them. is better against AP for sure but the passive life grip + 10% cdr comes in handy against AD champs too.

I notice that you went from "not sacrificing anything" to "hardly sacrificing anything". But I see that you base your position on popular boards talking points.

So if DD is good on "all AD champs" then explain why barely any pro builds it on most AD champions? It's built on Draven, Riven, Illaoi and ... ? I think I must've forgot someone because 3 seems incredibly niche but I honestly can't remember another champion who'd build it on a regular basis.

Inb4 "but I've seen streamer xx build it" - yeah, it's still not meta because a streamer built it. Meta is what professional players build because they always opt for what is best. Yes, Zhonyas on Riven could be built and you could win a game with it and make a nice play, but it's still not viable.

doesn't mean its unviable, and life grip give extra sustain + 20 AD for a total of 70 AD. and its actually better to rush before and it wont delay shit as / is all what u need to start the crit scaling.

So which ADC does that? Why is it only Draven?

finally, getting those items wont limit ur choices for example my ADC core build is and than i am free to get what ever i want cuz that combo is so good it allow me to do so.

Are you seriously arguing that we should balance the game based on your build as opposed what about every single professional player builds? Professional players understand the downsides of "your build" which is why they do not use it.

MrHaZeYoJun 22, 20171 votes

As a mage main I for the most part agree, eon doesn't detect wards tho, that's duskblade.

Mages tho have a good amount of hp items that adcs and assassins don't.

I just wish we had a ap version of qss n another ap armor item.

ForgiveColourJun 22, 20172 votes

This is why everyone makes fun of mage mains

MrHaZeYoJun 22, 20171 votes

N why's that

wishbone25Jun 22, 20171 votes

ap can one shot ad champs

TarzeusJun 22, 20171 votes

But velkoz and syndra can 1shot an adc all day

LauchmelderJun 22, 20171 votes

Vel'Koz needs to hit his skillshots and Syndra has to be fed.

GeshultzJun 22, 20171 votes

It's because AP itemization works well against both AP and AD. For example item 3157 provides armor which is good against Physical damage. However, it also gives an active that can stop burst from another AP Mage, dodge CC from a tank, survive longer against AD assassin, and dozens of other situations. item 3102 provides a spell shield against initiations from AD or AP champs. Provides safety against burst and poke as well. It due to that fact that AP itemization doesn't need as much customization as AD classes.(Along side that there are also way more AD classes then AP classes that exist within the game hence the reason why there are more ad itemization then AP itemization and more customization within AD itemization) That and not all AD classes can use other AD itemization effectively either. (For example when was the last time you saw an AD bruiser build mercurial scimitar)

TóxicoChicoGuapoJun 22, 20171 votes

you are really underselling just how good the active of zhonya's is. you are invulnerable and untargetable for 2.5 seconds. that is a long time in a team fight or in general. sure if you are isolate it won't save your ass, but it can definitely stall.

I mean look at champs that can already stall and how much more obnoxious they are with zhonyas just because you simply cannot attack them for like 5 seconds in a team fight.

Fizz will E > zhonyas and thats like 3 or 4 seconds you cannot hit the little guy. nevermind he still has protobelt and Q to get out as well after and ya know, flash.

Vladimir will pool > zhonyas > all while staying untargetable while he lets his ult pop healing him for huge amounts.

Lissandra can engage with massive aoe damage all while healing and being untargetable/invulnerable and then go untargetable/invulnerable again right after . all while slinging spells inbetween very quickly.

I mean it literally makes you immune to damage for 2.5 seconds. lets say you dash over a wall. have a dot on you? ZING. you are gonna live now. you got caught out but your ally is Tping? ZING. you just stalled for over half the duration of the tp channel.

Zhonya's is VERY fucking good. its so fucking good that the item had to be nerfed into oblivion and become an item bought solely for its active. when it was good it was bought literally every game by every ap champ because the active was strong and the stats were strong.

You also undersell that AP champions have access to high damage and high health items that AD champions do NOT have. if ad champions want health/damage they sacrifice quite a bit of attack damage for it.

item 3071 only gives 40 ad.

item 3022 only gives 30 etc.

where as other ad items that are big ticket give 65-80.

ap champs do not make that sacrifice with health and ap items.

item 3151 = 80 ap

item 3027 = 100 ap when fully stacked (thats the highest ap value outside of dcap/seraphs you can get!)

item 3116 = 75 AP

AP champions have the luxury of building whatever the fuck they want based on the situation where ad champs genuinely sacrifice more damage for the defensive actives and passives.

that is why ad champions have more options because every single one has a trade off.

GA is super not cost efficient and honestly terrible with the active down.

Maw doesn't nearly give the same AD as other big ticket items and will gimp your damage at the expense of saving your life from burst.

Death's Dance might be the only item I feel is broken. but the item is only situationally broken. its super strong on anyone who can keep healing out over the bleed. otherwise it just stalls your death, it doesnt actually defelct any damage. BT's overshield is not nearly enough by itself to save you from burst, it just helps a tiny bit. so i wouldn't call it a defensive item. it is a pseudo defensive item for risk/reward style adcs who want to sustain while taking some hits but not getting caught completely.

edge of night just isn't what it was before nerfs. its viable, but 55 ad again is a lot lower for a big ticket item and how much gold you spend into it.

AP champs simply have more options on what to build. where as ad champs have to build pretty much "what they need and maybe a defensive item".

LauchmelderJun 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lucian Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=W8X2MmAI,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-22T10:59:15.606+0000) AP champs simply have more options on what to build. where as ad champs have to build pretty much "what they need and maybe a defensive item".

That's not the case. Which items are good on nearly every AP champion? Morellonomicon, Void Staff, Sorcerers Boots, Deathcap, Rylais and Liandries.

Every (or at least the majority of) other items is niché in one way or another.

Lichbane, Nashor's Tooth, the Hextech items etc.

Compare that to AD and you get more options per champion. Sure, I can build Lichbane on Azir, but it's sub-par on him. Meanwhile ADCs can go for a wide selection of items because they all synergize with AD and AA based champions.

I Stealth IJun 22, 20171 votes

Excuse me good sir but Edge of Night does not reveal wards. That would be Duskblade.

shit...I'm part of the problem

DunkinNoobsJun 22, 20171 votes

AP champs have deathcap and AD champs don't. And no, Infinity Edge is not the equivalent of deathcap. If there an AD item that gave 100 AD and 35% bonus AD, literally every AD champ would buy it.