I presently find Athene's to be obnoxiously weak at mana regen now

darkdill··63 votes·4,068 views

Riot claims they nerfed Athene's to be worse than Morello's at mana regen because it was "obnoxious" in making you manaless. Well, I'd like to argue now that the mana regen you get from Athene's is so inefficient that it's even MORE obnoxious, in that it turns into a trap purchase in many cases.

Why is it a trap? Because in most cases, you are actually better served by a double Morellonomicon build. Even if they are increasing the price of Morello's by 200 in the next patch, that doesn't fix Athene's. It still only gives you 50% extra base mana regen compared to Morello's 100%, and Mana Font is only passable when you hit late-game or rush out a Tear of the Goddess. And as for the "restore mana on kill/assist", that isn't something to rely on.

Raising Athene's to 75% extra base mana regen would be a good start to make the item better. 25 MR isn't worth the extra cash and loss of 20 AP compared to Morello's. If you really wanted AP/MR, you take Abyssal. We didn't take Athene's for MR in the past and we don't take it for it now.

44 Comments

Kowe The Ewok11 votes

The irony is that Athene's was incredibly nerfed, while it already was a stat sink. It was a must buy on certain champions considering how weak other mana items are, hence you were forced to buy it even when facing AD-Casters or AD-Carries in midlane (on champions like Orianna )

I mean, if mana really gave you a significant advantage over being manaless, or without ressource it might actually be a good thing.

But look what champiosn like Akali Yasuo Zed Rengar RekSai Gnar can do without mana.

Especially after the latest champion releases mana (regen) itself feels like a money sink.

Nerfing it further on already suboptimal items just killed it. I still get the shivers when i consider that they are nerfing item 3165 on PBE instead of improving the horrible item 3174

5G8Nri0B546 votes

Riot: "Huh....for some reason people are buying Morellonomicon for their mana needs instead of Athene's..."

Yasuo Akali Zed :* "Clearly that means Morello is OP and is quickly becoming the new Athene's, we suggest you nerf it before it's too late!"*

Riot: "Rogers!"

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I feel like the mana champions (Heimerdinger Lulu Orianna Syndra Vi ) are punished for using abilities willy nilly by having low mana regen to start off, and then are forced to get items that help with getting their mana pool back up to a safe level, or even with having a very costly combo, or even high mana costs on their spells. The manaless champions are mostly AD, so they don't even need the Morello, and the AD item choices are pretty limited because some are just terrible choices, and a lot of the times are more costly than the AP items.

SeCKS Egai10 votes

The mana regen nerfs are just making energy and cd-only based champions that much more effective. I'm not looking forward to season 5 at all.

Cindikle8 votes

The problem with Athene's is that it is balanced around mana now instead of mana regen.

And the problem Athene's really had before the change was the fact that it gave such a powerful passive while also having the highest mana regen from an item. It should of required outside investment such as runes or another mp/5 item.

The item now needs to not be based off mana pool. Change both Chalice and Athene's down to 25% regen and a new passive:

Unique passive - Mana Font: Grants 25% mana regeneration. This bonus is doubled for every 25% mana you are missing.

This changes it to

  • 100-75% mana, 50% total regen. Current value without passive.
  • 74-50% mana, 75% regen. Slightly improved. But not worth getting over Morellonomicon.
  • 49-25% mana, 125% regen. Now is probably in tie with Morellonomicon in terms of worth from cost. Trading 20ap for 25mr and 25% mp/5.
  • 24%-0% mana, 225% regen. Now this is where it should shine. The item's theme suggest that it's about recovering your mana at lower points. But champions that are likely to build the item wont have the mana pool to supply it.

Next change is to remove the regen from the Tear line. And make it give 25% regen per 500 total mana as a unique passive. This should overall effect nothing at the start as you're going to have 500 mana by the time you get this. But it gives mana builders a form of regen that scales with their mana. It wont be extremely strong. But champions that build both Tear and RoA will see 100-125% mana regen later in the game.

darkdill1 votes

Maybe make it a bit more linear, but this is a good idea.

Cindikle2 votes

I don't think making it more linear would really help it. Because then it will always be compared to Morellonomicon. Making it work differently is where the change needs to go.

People compare the item as it is now as if you're at 50% mana. Which is fine overall. Because you're never going to stay at a static mana. Thus Morello's is more reliable as it's static.

Now the item says that's it's meant to recover from low mana. Not to sustain mana.

Morello = mana sustain - For champions that may use abilities to poke. But will often be looking for the right time(Lux) Athene = low mana recovery - For champions that can expect to use a lot of abilities and may end up low on mana for a long duration(Ziggs) Tear = mana build - For champions who need a high mana pool to be able to cast multiple spells in teamfights where recovery wont keep up. (Anivia)

Makes the choice that about knowing the situation and the game. Not just which one is currently stronger. Ziggs can still get Morello's if his team doesn't favor stalling a game. Lux can take Athene's if she sees that she's the main waveclear-er of the team and can expect to be using more spells than normal.

Tear wont be built by either generally. As it's often a choice of Tear VS RoA and sometimes both.

darkdill1 votes

The thing is that if it's more linear, it doesn't punish you for going slightly over the 25% mark.

The old Mana Font was good for that reason. If anything, it should be something like "Increase your base mana regeneration by 1.5% for every 1% of your missing mana."

That way, it's not obnoxious to rush it, but works well by mid-game instead of only by late-game for non-mana capacity builders.

Cindikle3 votes

Ok, but now it's back to just being a mana regen item. People will decided which one of the two preforms better. And we'll be back to one being stronger than the other and people wanting buffs/nerfs between them.

Your change would probably make Athene's better. While there is the difference of AP and cost. People will decide which is stronger either way. People didn't get it in S4 for the AP. If you're looking to dedicate a slot to mana regen, you're going to pick the stronger option. Instead of picking the right option for the situation. Your idea's mana regen becomes stronger at 65% mana. Not even close to a danger zone of "You wont have the mana for a teamfight if you keep this up".

One of the biggest problems with this games current itemization. There really isn't a lot of flexibility in it. Rarely do the items people buy change based on the game. Unless it's a difference in playstyle. Or maybe that tank bought 2 MR items before 2 armor items because Fizz got fed and the ADC is failing bad. But in the end he'll still have 2 of each.

Glitter Spitter5 votes

Here are the reasons i hate the Athene's nerf:

Im a support main, and most of the supports i played had the grail in their build path. After playing for so long you get into a rythm. 800 for ST 880 for your mana item. if you came back with 1680 first back you were set in lane and could focus on other important support items. Then they made athenes 1000 and nerfed it. This completely fucked over alot of my builds and my routine. i honestly dont care they nerfed it. but the gold cost is way to high and it nerfed mana hungry supports. if you reduce the gold cost back then i wouldnt care. supports lack gold so its painful to put 1000 into an item that does half of what it used to at 880. Not only was Cruci made more expensive now it takes longer to build it. im going to main tanky supports if this doesnt change because frozen heart is 100% more worth imo.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

Another support main here. I switched to Archangel's, since it's much easier to buy (720 vs 1000) and gives the same mana regen (+50%). It doesn't have the mana font passive, but the 1000 extra mana makes it harder for me to run out than Athene's does.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

I mostly play support (TB made it happen) but I usually got Athene's and TotG because Athene's gave less power, but also giving defense... But after this, I feel like TotG would be the first buy in order to spam spells longer, but also getting to a better item in the end (Archangel's). Sona is where I started using the support characters, but after her gameplay rework, she is required to build tankier because of how she is needed to be in the center of most fights. If Sona was made to be a late game mage, with better AP scaling on her Q and such, then she would be better off, or give her shield better stats, I don't care how, but I want Sona to have a little better survivability and not be punished for not building tank. I have mostly used other supports because they do more damaging things than Sona, and Sona just needs to either be defined as the aura buff mage support, or the poke mage support, because you can't really have both.

Talamare2 votes

Athene is better if you have a large mana pool, so you need to build Rod of Ages or Archangel's for it to be effective

So on Kassadin and Swain I suggest Athene who will likely have Rod of Ages for the extreme expenses on their ultimates.

On more or less, anyone and everyone else... Morellonomicon

but look on the bright side... At least that item doesn't suck anymore!

darkdill16 votes

Yeah, well I can't really go RoA or AA staff on Lux when I have to get Zhonya's for that Zed.

Talamare4 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, well I can't really go RoA or AA staff on Lux when I have to get Zhonya's for that Zed.

... Well... You can actually...

Rod of Ages + Zhonya would also relieve your mana problems, while providing even more survivability than Morello and Zhonya

darkdill15 votes

40% CDR is something I feel is mandatory as Lux. PEW PEW!

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

If you are against an AD mid laner, try running Scaling CDR Glyphs. That lets you get Rod of Ages or Seraph's Embrace without missing out on too much CDR later.

DarkenedSoul4209 votes

ROA is such a good item but no cdr 10-15 mins in is painful with alot of mids

Coprophagia4 votes

Rod of Ages is a great item, sure, but the health component of the item is a needless stat for Lux, who should not be in range of damage unless she is jumped, in which case, Zhonya's is a superiour alternative.

Brado111 votes

{quoted}

Rod of Ages is a great item, sure, but the health component of the item is a needless stat for Lux, who should not be in range of damage unless she is jumped, in which case, Zhonya's is a superiour alternative.

I was about to basically say this but since you already did I'll quote you instead.

Coprophagia1 votes

Which is why Lux is not supported in the meta currently. I suggest you play meta champions to help you avoid such frustrations, because I absolutely agree that Athene's is not cutting it for Lux.

darkdill6 votes

Metas are SUPPOSED TO CHANGE. Why should I refuse playing as Lux because of "meta"?

Constantly picking Syndra gets boring, and she suffers the same problem.

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Yeah, I feel like Syndra and Lux are caught being too close to their attackers (even if they aren't the ones who jumped on them) because being closer means they can deal damage easier because there's a lower chance of missing, or having the opponent avoiding it. Plus Lux's laser range makes it that much better when you hit a person in the middle of trying to recall. Catches them off guard quite frequently. And Lux's passive kind of REQUIRES her to be closer, since her spells add a light that detonates when she uses an AA on anyone with that light. And yes, Metas are supposed to change. That's why we have the round robins of which champions fit better in certain positions, and the new found meta for mid Fiora, as Brofresco highlighted in one of his videos.

The Ellimiist1 votes

Lol slightly offtopic but maybe that explains the 2 fiora mids I saw which both got completely stomped xD

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Exactly. Youtubers highlight something that is unconventional, people try it, becomes meta, then people know how to combat it, pick becomes bad again, everything returns to normal. Or so we thought O_o

The Ellimiist1 votes

Or in this case it's just bad to start with and some youtuber got some views doing something unconventional xD

I can think of few champs I could lane mid that would be worse than fiora.. Guess Yi is worse

Brado112 votes

So Lux is my main with Syndra being my second pick... is there a chance Xerath is also one of your favorites??

ImHerVoice2 votes

i couldn't care what it does. I only buy it for CDR coulodn't give a fuck if it gave mana regen or not BECAUSE I CAN ACTUALLY LAST HIT WITH AUTOS :^)

Igotlazy2 votes

The problem with Morellos is that it gives too much for such a low price. Not only that but it has a really smooth build. 2 ~760 Gold Items that provide mini-versions of the stats that the main item gives you along with a cheap combine cost. Its an amazing item no doubt it's just that it outclasses all the other items that makes it a problem.

Overall though its just that the OTHER mage items (such as Athenes) just aren't as good.

Abyssphere7 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Morellos is that it gives too much for such a low price. Not only that but it has a really smooth build. 2 ~760 Gold Items that provide mini-versions of the stats that the main item gives you along with a cheap combine cost. Its an amazing item no doubt it's just that it outclasses all the other items that makes it a problem.

Overall though its just that the OTHER mage items (such as Athenes) just aren't as good.

No, Morello being the only mana item not to suck does not make it a problem. Morello is perfectly fine; the other options just suck. Athene's is terrible.

Igotlazy1 votes

{quoted}

No, Morello being the only mana item not to suck does not make it a problem. Morello is perfectly fine; the other options just suck. Athene's is terrible.

I know, that's basically what I said. Its a problem relative to other Mage items and the other Mage items are a problem relative to Morellos. It's all about perspective.

doubleguac2 votes

No matter how much they buff/nerf morello or athenes, I feel like one of them is always going to be the go-to.

The problem with the items is that they overlap way too much in their niche. They both provide heavy mana regen and a bunch of CDR. Sure, athenes gives a bit of MR, but the item has historically been bought for its mana regen and CDR, not its MR. And sure, morello gives a grievous wounds passive, but people certainly aren't buying it for that--it's just a nice bonus.

For years, Athenes was more cost efficient than morello, so almost no one bought morello. Now, morello is more cost efficient, so very few people still buy athenes.

If they want both items to be healthy and viable, they need to differentiate the niches more. Maybe lower Athene's AP and increase it's MR, to make it a CDR item for tanks/bruisers who need a lot of mana. Maybe nerf the mana regen from Morello, and replace it with some other stat, in order to make it a pure offense choice.

Something needs to be done, because the items step on each others toes so much that they are never both popular at the same time. People are complaining that athenes got overnerfed. That may be true... but the item still isn't weak. The main reason no one is buying it is because morello does virtually the same thing but better and for a lower cost. If Morello gets more nerfs, or if athenes gets some buffs, people are just going to switch back to buying athenes every game, and ignore morello again.

Krys Star2 votes

Honestly, it's obvious Riot forgot the purpose of Athene's. Athenes existed as a defensive/supportive item, and Morellos as the pure offense item. I remember reading this two years ago. Riot's suddenly labeling Athenes as an offense item. I'd much rather Athenes give like, 30 ap, 40-50 mres, and 100% mana regen. It was the only reason I bought Athenes, was for the mana regen and mres. Not for the ap. If I wanted to hit harder, I'd obviously buy Morellos, since it provides so much ap and applies Grievous Wounds.

Riot needs to remember the purpose and existence of Athenes. It wasn't made for going on the offense. It was made for the mana sustain and surviving against burst mages and the like. Riot is just forgetting what purpose they had for items and champs lately, and going in opposite directions with their balancing. It's stupid.

Akesgeroth2 votes

I think the issue is that mana regen and/or mana aren't budgeted properly for casters. Let's take Malzahar as an example: You want to get Sorc boots and deathcap, of course. You also want to get a void staff eventually, so that's three slots gone. However, you also want to build Liandry's since it provides even more magic pen and the passive is massively powerful. And if you build Liandry, you need to build Rylai. This leaves you with precisely one free slot to change your build around. And this is a build which any DoT intensive mage will use: Malz, Swain, Brand, Cass, Morde, Morg, Rumble, Viktor, etc. Even mages who don't use DoTs will often pick this build because Liandry's is that strong. In fact, it's so strong that mage damage is currently built around having it.

Even skipping Liandry's and Rylai, you're left with three slots. In those three slots, you need to fit AP, cooldown reduction, mana and mana regen and some survivability. That's rarely doable. Like, let's take Karthus. You build Deathcap, sorc boots and void staff. You also build archangel, and zhonya. Pop an abyssal on top. Sounds nice until you realize you built 0 health and 0 cooldown reduction, but in Karthus' case that works because he cares about neither. Doesn't work so well on most other casters.

Now, forcing people to choose could be seen as an intelligent design decision; it prevents you from getting everything with a specific build and forces you to make choices. This would be fine if other characters weren't able to get everything in a build. Let's take Darius, as an example. He uses mana, but he doesn't need to build either mana or mana regen as his ability costs are low enough to allow him to use them consistently past the laning phase. Build Randuin's Omen, Merc Treads, Black Cleaver, Hydra, MoM on him and you have the following stats and effects, not counting movement speed:

  1. Magic resistance (+65)
  2. Armor (+70)
  3. Health (+700)
  4. AD (+185)
  5. Lifesteal (+12%)
  6. Amor penetration (+10, +25% from debuff)
  7. Cooldown reduction (+10%)
  8. Tenacity (+35)
  9. Cleave
  10. Attack speed slow on opponents.
  11. AoE slow
  12. AoE physical damage
  13. Magic shield

You get plenty of each of those stats and that's with only 5 items, meaning you still get to pick a 6th item to adapt to the match situation while having all the stats you could ever need. And Darius isn't even the most versatile Fighter. You need to face some mages? Get banshee's. Just tankier in general? GA or Warmog. More damage? Bloodthirster. Tankier AND more damage AND a slow on your attacks? Frozen Mallet. Physical damage champions can have their cake and eat it. Mages can't. Hell, for the sake of comparison, let me compare the 5 items Malz build to this:

  1. AP (340 +30% = 442)
  2. Magic penetration (30 + 35%)
  3. Health (+700)
  4. Bonus damage over time
  5. Slow when doing magic damage

And that's it. Same amount of health, no armor, no magic resistance, no cooldown reduction, no spell vamp, no tenacity, slightly better penetration. As for comparing the AP to the AD, you know damn well, that 185 bonus AD is about as good as 442 AP. And on top of that, mages need mana and/or mana regen while most other champions can get away with building neither. I'd go so far as to say that the budget on mage items is so bad that if it wasn't for the fact that you need one mage on a team to force the enemy team to build some MR instead of all armor, people would stop playing mages entirely. Or at the very least, they would concentrate on CC heavy mages and build support items.

darkdill1 votes

+1

Talamare1 votes

I also agree, however you can use Blue for early CDR, then get more CDR as your 3rd item

Sammystorm1 votes

It sucks because some champs almost have to buy it for the restore mana on kill or assist because other wise they can't survive team fights without running oom halfway through.

Ashes Arise1 votes

Riot is gone off their rocker this pre-season. I hope they don't actually intend to keep most of these retarded changes.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

So perhaps what they need to do is find out what third niche there is for mana regen that Morrelo's could be changed to help with. It used to be that you got Tear for mana regen and a bigger mana pool while having the potential for a lot of damage once it's upgraded and has max stacks. Chalice was for spam happy mages that want to poke down their enemy, it gave good mana regen as well as cdr to aid in this.

Morello's on the other hand, is supposed to be an item one gets to deal with the enemies health recovery due to its grievous wounds passive, the mana regen doesn't aid in this, it's just part of giving the item useful stats. So what could be added to Morello's to tie its mana regen into what it's supposed to be bought for? Maybe have it so it has poor mana regen normally but gets a huge spike if you inflict grievous wounds on an enemy champion? Maybe have its mana regen improve with your health regen, maybe by tweaking this, Morello's could be turned into more of a tank mana regen item. Something like that.

Omnem Occido1 votes

The three mana items that are used by mages are Morellonomicon, Tear of the Goddess, and Athene's Unholy Grail. Each has their specific role: Morello should be used for champions that have opportunistic abilities, such as Lux, giving them just enough sustain to use their spells when they need them, while granting bonus offensive prowress with the CDR, the slightly higher AP value, and the grievous wounds; Athene's should more for champions that expect to use their abilities all of the time, such as Ziggs, granting them much needed sustain when they are lower on mana, as well as granting increased defense against other AP users; Tear, on the other hand, is an item for champions that expect to use their mana in large chunks, like Anivia, and while this item does not have CDR like the other two, with Seraph's Embrace finished, it provides the most AP, as well as a very useful active shield. The biggest problem with Athene's before its nerfs was that it virtually made mana champions resourceless, which takes away the point of having mana in the first place. The nerf to the MR was a needed one, as 40 was a little ridiculous, but I think that Riot overshot the reduction of its mana regen. What would make sense to me would be if the Unique Passive were changed from mana return after killing/assisting to mana return on spells hitting enemy champions. That way, there is a buff on the overall sustain, while not rewarding bad play.

Downfall1 votes

Guys, they're trying to make it so its not a must-buy item on mids. EVERY SINGLE TIME you played Lux you'd build chalice. Everytime, not chances of not doing, it happened. They dont want that sort of thing, they want build diversity and although i don't agree with the chances that's what they're trying to accomplish, its very difficult to keep both items and then make them both situational rather than one being better than the other.

SKiTHx1 votes

totally agree with this. everytime i buy it it just seems like a weak or bad purchase

Brado111 votes

As a mage main I feel so at home in this thread

Abyssphere1 votes

I don't really get why Athene's being a staple on most mages was seen as a bad thing anyway. I don't see people complaining about ADCs having the same items in every single game, nor supports always building one of 3 support items, nor all junglers being forced to use Poacher's Knife.

There will always be staple items and for mages there will always be staple mana regen/CDR items. The fact that Grail was one of only two items which did that as well as giving AP isn't its fault.

I agree that there was an imbalance between Athene's and Morello but all they've done is reverse the imbalance. They need to be brought closer together - make Chalice and Grail cheaper, or at least buff the mana regen to 75%.

More from Gameplay

More by darkdill