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I'm totally okay with Supports using redemption/Locket to expertly save their teammates...

Malicious Metal··42 votes·3,378 views

They both require a certain amount of foresight and planning in order to maximize the effect of those powerful actives...

Unlike this thing. item 3504 This is the definition of a stat checking nightmare.

I personally have started to play a lot of support recently (Well, to be fair, mostly Taric ) and have grown quite supportive of the notion that Supports should feel impactful. New powerful actives and solid kits make for a satisfying support experience.

But Ardent Censer is in an entirely different ballpark.

First of all: It's passive! Means you just have to hit a stray heal/shield and your team just receives the passive bonus, without any smart thinking or any strategy behind it

Secondly: It's the definition of stat checking You just provide your team with a huge increase in stats simply by buying this cheap 2300 gold item, effectively doubling down on its value by applying it to your entire team

And thirdly: It's totally unfun to play with/against It's horrible. It doesn't feel satisfying to use as a support but rather like a chore. I NEED to buy it if I want my adc to win the stat checking duel and even then I don't have fun building it. On the other hand playing against it feels awful. It's DRAIN TANKING that adds up to ridiculous amounts of life drained and it's just not fun to face, at all!

I can accept Locket, Redemption or any other form of strong supportive itemization as most of it is an active effect which you have to utilize to its full effect but Ardent Censer has no place in current league of legends. It's a stupid item that should have never come into existence. Athene's unholy grail is an interactive way to provide more heals to your team but Ardent is the definition of a game-breaking stat stick.

I sincerely hope this item gets removed or heavily reworked as it's an awful design that Riot should never be, and probably isn't proud of.

//rant off//

69 Comments

Blessed Death9 votes

I'll say this like I said in another post.

Ardent Censer 7.2 Buff which occurred back in late Jan 2017

  • Bonus attack speed on heals and shields increased to 20% - 35% (based on level) from 20%.
  • Attack health drain on-hit on heals and shields increased to 20 - 35 (based on level) from 20.

Ardent Censer was nerfed down to 25%/25 respectively which means it's only a net of buff of 5%/5.

Why is this now being considered ridiculously overpowered? Is it really the item or is it because of other changes that have been made since 7.2 that is making the Ardent Censer good?

chipndip12 votes

Exactly

Ravenhale3 votes

Ardent has quite the history of buffs. It didn't used to have 60AP. That came with the introduction of the bonus healing/shielding passives of 6.13. The whole on hit healing was introduced in 6.22 and it actually did not take long for people to call Lulu out as over tuned near the start of the season.

Blessed Death2 votes

Yeah, but why was LuLu being considered as over tuned though? Was it because of what she was doing or what she was enabling others to do?

Like I said earlier, if this was really an issue with the item itself, why is it rearing it's ugly head now instead of back during 6.22 or during the first 3 months of the 7.2 buff? Is this a result of the shift in meta or did it really take that long for people to figure out that it could be abused?

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

I will answer that for you: None of the meta adcs back then could use ardent. Isn't hard to understand? Varus, jhin, MF are NOT autoattackers when they stack lethality. Or well not in the case trist, twitch and others are. So yeah it was a meta shift from ability focused adcs to AS/crit adcs and oh wonder such an item on an adc who wants 2,5 AS and draintanking on every auto this item is broken.

SteelMankind1 votes

Dont forget when Cait was meta. Yes, she is an autoattacker, but her base AS was so low (and is even lower now) that ardent AS was never as noticeable as it is on Twitch.

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

so what u say is, they should make ardent an active

Malicious Metal3 votes

Basically, yes. Make it have a more noticeable impact with clear down time that makes the item a high point for the support player and something the enemy can play around-

jwebb01132 votes

just a question on your thought process ...

is the the bonus healing and shielding that is the issue with item 3504 ?

or is it the stats it gives to the adc when you heal or shield?

would you be ok if the healing and shielding bonus stayed but for the bonus damage stats to adc where only used as an active ?

Malicious Metal3 votes

The healing/shielding stat isn't the problem in my opinion as even Redemption has a 10% increase on it. What's troublesome is the 25 health STEAL that's just passively tacked on, which is further increased by the passive granting attack speed.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here but it's NOT healthy design.

jwebb01132 votes

yet i asked if that part of the stats " the attack speed and the 25 hp steal " would be better if it was used as an active for ardent

morris11 votes

The heal should only work against champions. That's it.

Flemman1 votes

ok if it will stop the complain

But I think there is low chance this ever happen since others classes have those "item who just activate themself when you trigger X" too. I mean, do you feel outplayed when hexdrinker/maw proc and save the enemy, is it rewarding for the player who got the shield. Sterrak is a good item who is supposed to let juggernaut stay longer in the fight, but wouldn't it be more rewarding if, instead of an auto shield, it was replace with an active that granted tenacity instead (so you trade stay longer for move longer)

they kept the player friendly item to not create more burden for role who already have a lot of active to use (they even change muramana from active to passive) My bet is that, if they add another active for support to not screw in that 1 sec tf while still having QWER to manage, they will buff either the active or the core user some patch after as the reliability will take a big hit and the item is tuned around that reliability for now.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

There is a difference between INVESTING MY GOLD into an item to provide STATS for MY CHAMPION OR if my janna buys ardent presses E and suddenly i get 4k gold worth in stats without altering my build path. That is the entire problem with that item. ADCs want AS and lifesteal? BUY IT. But then no crit for you. Imagine and item that gives black cleaver stats passively while building full tank on jarvan. Doesn't sound so nice does it?

Flemman1 votes

well support buy stat for the other, that's kinda their role.

They increase the shield they give, they increase their healing or they increase the damage. If support item were giving stat for the support, I can see a world were they will be picked by sololaner as it will buff them before their allies

Another point is that, when support are strong on their own, they usually become the target of complain by the communty as they do stuff they shouldn't do

chipndip11 votes

Why not have the value of the magic damage be higher than that of the life stealing passive?

Cause I don't want an entire inventory of actives to stress about because some solo laners are getting pissy.

KoKoboto3 votes

Yeah. Conceptually I really like new Locket and Redemption, now that they've been nerfed I find them somewhat balanced (ignoring the support tank items > pure tank items shit we got going on).

Ardent however has NEVER been fine (EDIT) since they added the life drain to it. It's just way too easy to pull off healing with the item. Apdo (super high tier Korean player) has also said that Ardent is busted. He compared it to giving a blood thirster to your carries which is pretty damn accurate. 10% lifesteal with maybe 300 damage auto attacks is 30 health per hit, Ardent censer heals for 25, does extra damage, AND gives attack speed. This item is absolutely horrible in design and it's so fucking sad that it trumps Athene's Unholy grail which takes more "skill" to use.

The ONLY upside to the item is how it has created unique builds like going stoneborn pact + Ardent on a wide set of champions (support Kayle for me, I love it). I think players feel cool when they are able to spec into ardent censer when they're not a natural heal / shield support or maybe it's just me.

Blessed Death1 votes

Maybe Riot should really think about removing the health gain from the item. Leave the dmg and atk speed. The attacker would still get the benefit of hitting harder and faster, but would still have to worry about whether the trade is worth it.

Tahminatrix 3 votes

I like how they buffed ardent censor`s early game and nerfed its late game in order to respond to the fact that its being rushed... Is ardent censor the lee sin/riven/yasuo of items?

chipndip15 votes

Every class rushes something. We nerfed Redemption so THAT wouldn't be rushed, remember?

jwebb01135 votes

i typically rush item 2049 when i support i guess im bad and should be reported for being off meta/troll

jwebb01135 votes

i guess i am wrong for getting SS as a support... hence my downvotes

Champion Skin2 votes

The main problem with rushing item 2049 is that it helps providing vision and avoid being ganked by the jungler.... However that isn't all that helpful if you are being crushed 2v2 seeing the enemy jungler doesn't make that much better

jwebb01131 votes

well you having HP makes it where it takes more damage to kill you and rushing damage as a support isnt gonna make you or the adc any stronger if you are already in a bad match up

Infernape14 votes

I'm pretty sure Redemption got nerfed because everyone and their mother could use it regardless of whether the champion was a support or not. It was pretty overtuned.

chipndip13 votes

Doesn't refute the point so...

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

yeah because it was overtuned and broken as fuck. No joke, beginning of the season when i could steal play nautilus top i bought SV, sunfire and after that redemption and locket with a 70% winrate on him. Then they nerfed everything, reworked tanks and yeah here we are. Ardent is definitely not an item that should be rushed or exist at all.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

Ardent is definitely not an item that should be rushed or exist at all.

Literally why? This item has existed in the way it has been for a long time and no one cared. Now after a few weeks the verdict is "delete the item altogether"? The fuck is that?

Steelflame3 votes

They didn't buff it's early game. It's buffs are only up until level 6, and it is virtually impossible for a support to have Ardent before level 6.

Tahminatrix 3 votes

{quoted}

They didn't buff it's early game. It's buffs are only up until level 6, and it is virtually impossible for a support to have Ardent before level 6.

You are telling me a draven support with heal and stoneborn pact cant have ardent before 6? Atleast at lvl 6 its not a nerf.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

Lee sin / Riven / Yas of items? What? I'm pretty sure that Lee and Yas suck ass right now.

Tahminatrix 1 votes

{quoted}

Lee sin / Riven / Yas of items? What? I'm pretty sure that Lee and Yas suck ass right now.

Basically riot doesnt want to change them and prefers to see if the meta manages shift away from them/people find a counter for them.

but with the overwhelming amount of bans to yasuo... lol they kinda have to.

4th3t0s3 votes

It's things like this and the popularity of warlords that seems to be allowing ADC's to rush IE and crit since sustain is too easily bypassed these days.

DariusDemiurge2 votes

So is the 25 hp steal infinite for the censer's buff duration? Why don't they limit it to the first attack or something like a shitty version of nami's e?

Blessed Death2 votes

It's only for 6 seconds.

Now don't quote me on this because I'm a sup main and my itemization knowledge beyond Support is not the best, but I believe that usual build for ADC's starts IE plus 2 Zeal items. Add the 25% atk speed from the Censer, coupled with the bonus life-stealing effect and that's a pretty good amount of survivability(is this a word?) in that point of the game. You can get a lot of hits in that 6 secs, plus depending on the support, the shield is adding health/armor and possibly more atk speed/dmg. It's making trades for certain marksman/support combos really hard to deal with.

DariusDemiurge2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blessed Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VusH1cvJ,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-08-29T00:28:45.349+0000)

It's only for 6 seconds.

Now don't quote me on this because I'm a sup main and my itemization knowledge beyond Support is not the best, but I believe that usual build for ADC's starts IE plus 2 Zeal items. Add the 25% atk speed from the Censer, coupled with the bonus life-stealing effect and that's a pretty good amount of survivability(is this a word?) in that point of the game. You can get a lot of hits in that 6 secs, plus depending on the support, the shield is adding health/armor and possibly more atk speed/dmg. It's making trades for certain marksman/support combos really hard to deal with.

6 seconds is an eternity in a moba. Just another testament to riot's design and balance teams doing some sort of drugs.

I really don't understand why they'd allow such and not limit it to X number of charges or something else logical.

Noblewind2 votes

We need to do away with the stat checking mechanics in this game, period. Whether it's runes, masteries, or items, hidden power is not an enjoyable experience. Itemization should include actual tradeoffs.

Apart from obvious champ matchups, it should not be so easy to mitigate a champion's weaknesses with quote-unquote "free stats", however small they are.

A Vayne at the moment can just go warlords and the resolve mastery for increased healing effects, and can basically ignore the weak early game she has (relative to the difficult it should have). This is why you're seeing late game hard carries such as trist/twitch/kog succeed in games that are only lasting 30mins...

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Not only for adcs it is an problem. Nasus is incredibly toxic to fight against as well. Despite his statcheck nature riot also overloaded his kit with every buff more and more. Now you have nasus with either dshield and early dorans/corrupting+all the masteries and he can sustain for days. It's basically impossible to push him out of lane or even kill him if you are not called jayce or riven and even then the ridiculous sustain he gets with all that shit makes it impossible to actually deny him farm. Same with bullying tryndamere. Q heal, dshield and masteries the same. So i can only imagine how warlords+all that shit works in botlane. Played against kog yesterday as autofilled trist. Sona and kog they NEVER got low on health despite me constantly attacking and bombing them. 2 min later both full health again. It's ridiculous.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

I agree. I main support and almost never run Ardent simply because it doesn't feel rewarding to use. The value is great, sure, but it almost feels a little cheap (no pun intended).

AFilthyCaitMain5 votes

I mean if you do this in ranked your just cheating yourself out of possible wins.

I Main Swain1 votes

i feel like they should remove the attack speed boost and see how it looks

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

There are currently 3 heal/shield boost items and each of them have their own unique advantages.

Ardent censer empowers your ADC with the AS buff

Redemption is a massive AoE heal

Mikael's has 20% heal power as opposed to the rest, and is a cleanse.

If you remove the AS buff, it becomes no different from an unupgraded idol. Granted, it is overtuned, maybe the AS buff itself is a broken mechanic that shouldn't be there, as it is either uselessly small or brokenly big. But then, what mechanic then would you give censer? I'm all in for a nerf, but that constitutes a gutting, and I have a feeling you can't meaningly nerf censer without gutting it so the AS probably does have to go. But it does need to be replaced with something else.

DarkRitual1 votes

Remove the lifedrain and make it just on-hit damage.

Or, have the on-hit lifedrain only work on champions and epic monsters.

Blessed Death1 votes

I'd rather this. Remove the life drain. Force ADC's to think about making smarter trades in lane because they no longer have the life steal on top of the shield.

To me that's the biggest problem. It's not that the Censer is OP or that a certain Sup Champ is OP, it's the combination of bonus life steal, plus shield, plus the current ADC meta of Crit/Atk Speed/Life steal sustain.

If an ADC goes in for a trade and they are out of position, out manned or just stupid, they shouldn't be able to come out of that trade equal or better off. They should either die or come out at a disadvantage.

I Main Swain1 votes

i personally think the life drain is healthier than the attack speed (although i didnt realize it wasnt just on champions and epics, it should be tbh). a free 25% attack speed boost on every heal and shield you give is pretty dang powerful and if you ask me unnecessary, although id be open to compensating in other areas potentially if thats what it required to get rid of it

Blessed Death1 votes

I'm not one for the number crunching aspect, but it would be interesting to see how the difference plays out. Which one allows the attacker to trade better without any repercussions or drawbacks? The atk spd or life drain . I ask this because I really feel that's the heart of the issue.

sobi9992 votes

I feel like what OP is trying to say is that ardent's passive is as good as actives of other support items i.e. redemp/solari etc and the fact that it is automatically applied on allies upon healing/shielding. Therefore it requires no skill and is a pure stat check given to your allies.

Then comes the issue of ardent being very cost efficient but most support items are like that anyway but ardent still tops them all. I think the passive should be changed to an active that has a small cooldown maybe 30 seconds. Right now i don't think anyone will sit still if ardent is still not nerfed even more.

I Main Swain1 votes

yeah essentially, i think the free attack speed on every heal and shield isnt needed and just overloads censor as a support item.

The DrBonjigollo1 votes

I feel the item would be better if Riot decreased the attack speed, got rid of the attack drain and gave like 2-5% shield and heal power to compensate. Maybe not even decrease the attack speed, I mean it's kind of ridiculous that the support is basically giving their team free life steal in addition to heals and shields.

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