Tanks do to much damage

Bultz·Jan 6, 2018·39 votes·5,776 views

Tanks build pure tank, but still having insane damage like orn, malphite, and Ali is stupid. There isn't a single good reason for them to do crazy damge and remain tanky.

86 Comments

TheThundersRoarJan 7, 201833 votes

It's not tanks. EVERYONE does too much damage.

AzeranthJan 7, 20181 votes

Yeah, I feel that. I think we need a greater shift in focus from Damage to effects. I actually just made post about a champ centrered on this low damage high impact kit.

LordGeovanniJan 7, 20181 votes

Leona ?

AzeranthJan 7, 20186 votes

I think there a ways to make a champion impactful and mechanically diverse without giving them so much damage. I'd like to see a reduction in damage across the board, especially from non carry kits. If a kit is carry oriented, fine, I guess, but if it is, it shouldn't also have all the nice things from bruisers and poke champions that makes their life too easy.

LordGeovanniJan 8, 20181 votes

Im saying that Leona does exactly what you are talking about and she has very little damage a large portion of her damage is physical damage from her auto attack and a large portion of her damage is counted as allies damage not her own through sunlight that can be proced over and not used when leona is doing her combo because of its reliance on allies.

Ahri BakaJan 7, 20185 votes

yeah that's the problem everyone does too much damage ,but tanks are almost unkillable , that's why they are strong

TheThundersRoarJan 7, 201810 votes

See, here's the problem. You can't nerf JUST tank damage, otherwise they will be left in the dust. Because despite being able to 100-0 a squishy without items, a tank dies in 2-3 seconds in a fight.

If you nerf tank damage, but let everyone else get away, tanks will die in 2-3 seconds AND will not do enough damage to kill anyone. Which makes them literally useless.

If tanks are to lose some damage, then EVERYONE must lose some damage, so that tanks can go back to being tanky.

ShirukuSamaJan 7, 20185 votes

"If you nerf tank damage, but let everyone else get away, tanks will die in 2-3 seconds AND will not do enough damage to kill anyone. Which makes them literally useless."

wait wat ? If they cant kill, they are useless?

Tanks are the meatshields, the teamfight initiators. They shouldn't kill anyone... They are full of utility and cc and tankiness. They are not for killing but assisting.

If everybody does too much damage and tanks die in few secs as you said, then Rito should buff tanks survivability and then nerf their damage into the dust. Otherwise, they'll remain upgraded Juggernauts.

HügöJan 7, 201811 votes

Nonsense. League isn't a mmo where the tanks get 200 skills to pull aggro, you can't force someone in league to attack you without being a threat to him. So take away the damage of a tank and there is literally no reason to attack him and so purpose of being a tank is gone.

NineTailedMysticJan 7, 20184 votes

The threat is your CC/disruption.

HügöJan 7, 20186 votes

Then you have to rework every tank to something like urf Mao to be a threat.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 7, 20182 votes

like mao havent low cc outside urf ?! Lmao.

NineTailedMysticJan 7, 20181 votes

Or not, and realize "hey if we keep this dude alive, he's going to keep ccing us off cooldown".

TheThundersRoarJan 8, 20181 votes

Some tanks are like that. Sejuani, Maokai, Skarner, Nautilus. They have spammable CC. But if literally every single tank was that way it'd get pretty fucking boring.

Most tanks have some engage CC, but they don't all have spammable CC. Some bring damage instead. Garen, Volibear, etc. More variety this way.

NineTailedMysticJan 8, 20181 votes

And you lost credibility when you called Garen and Mundo "Tanks".

TheThundersRoarJan 8, 20181 votes

Don't try to derail the argument. I know that they belong in these bullshit subclasses Riot invented, but I'm using a blanket term that makes more sense in the context.

When you say "we need a tank", and top picks Garen, everyone is content. Because Garen is a tank. He builds defensive and draws aggro by threatening to murder the backline if he's not peeled. Yeah I know Riot wants you to call him a "juggernaut" for some unknown bullshit reason, but FYI, nobody outside of the boards even uses these words.

So keep the argument on-topic.

NineTailedMysticJan 8, 20181 votes

Or, you know, Garen and Volibear are supposed to do damage and no one complains when they do damage, unlike actual Tanks who CC you while chunking you.

There's a difference between "Tank" and "Tanky".

TheThundersRoarJan 8, 20181 votes

Yeah, no one complains because they're not meta. Not because they agree that Volibear should be doing damage.

Trust me, people were bitching all day about "omg he build only hp but bites half my healthbar" when Volibear was meta.

Z3SleeperJan 7, 20181 votes

Inb4 new keystone that AoE taunts enemies whenever you cast a skill.

onlymdestinyJun 12, 20181 votes

Tank will not die in 2-3 second at first , second tank already provide bunch cc, like ornn(q e r)

SEKAIJan 7, 201810 votes

Everyone does too much damage in the game as of today.
There is also a difference between outliving a person squishier than them, and doing too much damage.

DJ 01975Jan 7, 20184 votes

I think OP is talking about when a tank uses a single rotation of spells (With low cooldowns, generally, since tank items have CDR freely available in most core items), and doe 60-70% of a Marksman's health. While the Marksman returns fire and does 10% or even less of the tank's health.

SEKAIJan 7, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ 01975,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-01-07T06:57:05.803+0000)

I think OP is talking about when a tank uses a single rotation of spells (With low cooldowns, generally, since tank items have CDR freely available in most core items), and doe 60-70% of a Marksman's health. While the Marksman returns fire and does 10% or even less of the tank's health.

Clearly exaggerated and loaded scenarios aside:

ADCs typically build 0 defence while they're also squishy by nature, ofc even base damage is gonna be apparent on their HP bar.

A tank merely being able to dish damage on someone with 0 defence doesn't mean the said tank does too much damage.

Nor is either of ANY of these notions, such as that a tank needs to do literally ZERO damage, or ADCs need to be tanky with ZERO tank items, or somehow ADCs need to 3 shot tanks, is remotely sane; nor is is helping when RIot constantly adds damage into tank items (which in reality actually typically ends up abused by damage dealers than it is abused by tanks), or when they are non-stop adding new defensive-alternative-but-also-does-a-lot-of-damage items for ADCs or outright reworking defensive items into offensive ones for ADCs like GA.

........

The game is just way too over-designed at this stage. We need to go back to the basics. Tank itemisation means tank itemisation, damage itemisation means damage, for a start.

AzeranthJan 7, 20182 votes

The issue isn't the quantity of damage the tank deals, it's the persistence of the damage dealing. A tank like Ornn has no trouble getting on the backline, as his ult and E definitely make running away a bad option. A CC immunity allows him to negate at least one kiting ability like trist ulti, and his Q is a slow. He will get to you. Which is ok, if you want to design a tank who will get you, no matter what, that's fine. The issue is that Ornn is designed like any other warden tanks where "if you walk into me, I will drop a ass whooping in you, then my team will, then I will again" again, a fine design idea, the problem is Ornn has the "reach the backline" potential of a vanguard like Alistar, but when he gets there, he's chaining low cooldown down CC and damage like he's Poppy. It's stupid. He has the best of both worlds, and he's not the only one.

The Bad TouchJan 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ 01975,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-01-07T06:57:05.803+0000)

I think OP is talking about when a tank uses a single rotation of spells (With low cooldowns, generally, since tank items have CDR freely available in most core items), and doe 60-70% of a Marksman's health. While the Marksman returns fire and does 10% or even less of the tank's health.

Yeh...

10%...

2.5 times a second...

DJ 01975Jan 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2018-01-07T07:47:57.735+0000)

Yeh...

10%...

2.5 times a second...

{quoted}

Clearly exaggerated and loaded scenarios aside:

ADCs typically build 0 defence while they're also squishy by nature, ofc even base damage is gonna be apparent on their HP bar.

A tank merely being able to dish damage on someone with 0 defence doesn't mean the said tank does too much damage.

Nor is either of ANY of these notions, such as that a tank needs to do literally ZERO damage, or ADCs need to be tanky with ZERO tank items, or somehow ADCs need to 3 shot tanks, is remotely sane; nor is is helping when RIot constantly adds damage into tank items (which in reality actually typically ends up abused by damage dealers than it is abused by tanks), or when they are non-stop adding new defensive-alternative-but-also-does-a-lot-of-damage items for ADCs or outright reworking defensive items into offensive ones for ADCs like GA.

........

The game is just way too over-designed at this stage. We need to go back to the basics. Tank itemisation means tank itemisation, damage itemisation means damage, for a start.

I think you are both misunderstanding.

Firstly; No. No adc in the game does 10% of a tank's hp per auto with max attack speed. Vayne will do maybe 5% with a burst of 15% every 3, but that's so niche. Kog maybe, but that's on a cooldown and Kog is the squishiest of squishies with no escapes or mobility. That's the tradeoff.

Secondly; I'm not saying ADCs should be immune to damage. I'm not saying tanks should do zero damage. But when you have giant unkillable monsters like Maokai, Mundo, or ChoGath who also do % hp damage, giant chunks of true damage, and insane regen built into their kit it's ridiculous. They will kill squishies in one rotation, and other tanks in only like two or three even while building full tank.

AzeranthJan 7, 20182 votes

(those giant unkillable monsters are what CC tanks and ranged Marksmen with kiting are for. It's almost like playing ADC should require some brain activity and skill to not get insta gibbed)

The Bad TouchJan 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ 01975,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-07T08:33:06.246+0000)

I think you are both misunderstanding.

Firstly; No. No adc in the game does 10% of a tank's hp per auto with max attack speed. Vayne will do maybe 5% with a burst of 15% every 3, but that's so niche. Kog maybe, but that's on a cooldown and Kog is the squishiest of squishies with no escapes or mobility. That's the tradeoff.

Secondly; I'm not saying ADCs should be immune to damage. I'm not saying tanks should do zero damage. But when you have giant unkillable monsters like Maokai, Mundo, or ChoGath who also do % hp damage, giant chunks of true damage, and insane regen built into their kit it's ridiculous. They will kill squishies in one rotation, and other tanks in only like two or three even while building full tank.

"No ADC's"

Goes on to mention 2 adc's that do. Also Kog Maw's CD = long enough to penta.

Trist easily hits 2.5 AS and will chunk a minimum of 10% shot off 3/4's of the tanks unless they somehow manage to afford 5-6 armor items....

DJ 01975Jan 7, 20182 votes

Mm, yes, excuse me for pointing out two outliers in a pool of seventeen choices. My bad.

And nah. Trist is late game enough that any tank worth their salt has tabi + randuin's with locket + 4k hp. There is no way a Trist is doing 10% damage to that.

AzeranthJan 7, 20182 votes

It's not just about the quantity of damage, but the potential to do so. Here, read this post on design and you'll see why some tanks can do damage, but why Ornn shouldn't do much damage. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ai1Vj5Ee-design-philosophy

with the answerJan 7, 20187 votes

Imagine a tank fighting a tank. Pretty boring without some damage don't you think?

BultzJan 7, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=with the answer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-07T01:05:45.727+0000)

Imagine a tank fighting a tank. Pretty boring without some damage don't you think?

Yeah, but they dont do any damage to each other this way anyways.

Remove JungleJan 7, 201820 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but they dont do any damage to each other this way anyways.

How? u just said that they have insane dmg?

AzeranthJan 7, 20181 votes

They have insane damage for a tank. But, its still less than something that would be easily killing tanks.

The issue is that tanks can be a solo threat while still being super tanky. Ornn can kill people while have 8k health and 300 armor.

Z3SleeperJan 7, 20185 votes

Only when it suits his argument.

Bob the ToastrJan 7, 20186 votes

Sure it would be boring, but that's the point. Tanks are meant to be hard to kill and to lock down enemies and soak up damage in teamfights. Not to be able to 1v1 someone easily or have big, flashy, high-damage abilities.

SEKAIJan 7, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-01-07T05:27:21.682+0000)

Sure it would be boring, but that's the point. Tanks are meant to be hard to kill and to lock down enemies and soak up damage in teamfights. Not to be able to 1v1 someone easily or have big, flashy, high-damage abilities.

It's 2018 now and some people still don't know there are something called Juggernauts (tanky carries who are highly immobile) and bruisers (mix of skirmisher's damage and tank's sustain and CC, but not as good in both, and typically lacks strong scaling) in this game.

Also, I don't get how some people still have trouble wraping their head around the notion that tank out-living somebody doesn't automatically mean they do too much damage.

Bob the ToastrJan 7, 20182 votes

Unfortunately for you, I do know what Juggernauts and Bruisers are. Do you know what Wardens are?

SEKAIJan 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vt1FHMAH,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-07T07:48:31.354+0000)

Unfortunately for you, I do know what Juggernauts and Bruisers are. Do you know what Wardens are?

No I don't know what Wardens are, because Riot just divided tanks into 2 almost identical subclasses of Vanguard and Warden where they barely, if any, have any differences that really set them apart.

Supposedly Vanguard is more initiating oriented and Warden is more peel oriented, supposedly, but honestly, what is the god damn difference, especially when there are only 7 Wardens in the entire game where at least 3 are known for their supreme initiation than they do with peeling?

Warden and Vanguard shouldn't even be 2 tags, not at this stage where their differences are so poorly defined.

However, Juggernauts and Bruisers are valid tags. Because their actually have properly defined differences.

AzeranthJan 7, 20182 votes

The distinction between wardans and vanguard's is indeed centered around the way they exercise control. Wardens are often Immobile, but difficult to escape from, and often excel at counter engage. (Maokai, Poppy, Nunu) the job of a warden is to zone the enemy out, and make.going near then a serious hazard. Wardens often have a medium damage rotation that includes a synergistic combo and a small CD burst with a spamable AoE spell on Q.

Vanguard's, however, focus on starting the fight. They're CC heavy,often with some unique or clunky form of mobility that doubles as a CC. A damage reduction, or sheild to help them acheive the more aggro life they live is also common. Warwick, Nautilus, Alistar are all excellent examples. They rely on a CC combo to be chained together and as such are often limited by their powerful spells being on cooldown. They do almost no damage, but they don't need to, their team does.

There are of course some tanks that can do both. Poppy can do both depending on how fed she is. Chogath can do both depending on how late game we are. Nasus, well he doesn't count. He's weird.

The most important distinction is that Wardens have mild CC on a low cooldown, with large tank stats and zone control as a primary emphasis. They can also peel. Vanguard's have major CC on high cooldowns, this gives them potent engage potential, and the need for some tankiness buff to not die every fights.

T4underboltJan 7, 20182 votes

1v1? Had malphite who wasnt even ahead and went 1v2 vs tristana leona. Killed both. Left with 100 hp but still it is dub for tank to be able to do that.

AzeranthJan 7, 20182 votes

If a tank kills an ADC 1v1, the game is balanced. ADCs main balancing point is they can't skirmish effectively. Now, 2v1 with support. If a tank designed specifically to have all kinds of armor bonuses and scalings against physical damage has weathered the Leona's initial combo, that should be the death of Tristana. Leona uses her Q stun combo too early, Malphite ults the Tristana, Tristan dies as she is run down by the rock, with Leona trailing behind. It's reasonable.

JohnnyNeverSinsJan 7, 20181 votes

Top lane is boring anyways so..

PopcornBunniJan 7, 20185 votes

And yet the entire top 5 of top lane is dominated by fighters and bruisers

Gangplank Kayle Illaoi Kled Nasus

SpoofghoulJan 7, 20184 votes

can this die please

we all know we are talking about Maokai Ornn Shen and that's about it as far as tanks with damage goes

Then there are the special cases like Rammus Malphite yea they will hurt if you are an AD champ/team does this still surprise anyone??...

The most problematic thing with those damage tanks is their spammable % damage and/or reliable cc and high base damage

Sion can't even do nearly as much damage as maokai despite it being 10x harder to pull off so yea maokai is bullshit that doesn't mean the entire tank class is bullshit

AzeranthJan 7, 20181 votes

There should be a separation in tank styles, called subclass. Here, learn the language so the balance team will actually listen for a change https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ai1Vj5Ee-design-philosophy

shicky97Jan 7, 20183 votes

Having a lot of damage is kinda part of Malphite's identity, and is kinda the only reason he is ever picked over other tanks. I can't speak for the other tanks though.

FireDrizzleJan 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Tanks build pure tank, but still having insane damage like orn, malphite, and Ali is stupid. There isn't a single good reason for them to do crazy damge and remain tanky.

Ali doesnt even do damage out of lane.

Dark VaatuJan 7, 20183 votes

tanks are meant to be super strong in late game. majority tanks are weak pre 6. basically i am trying to say is i never win a game if my teammates fall behind. #tank main is here.

ÈvilMortyJan 7, 20182 votes

Tanks have high base damage because they dont build damage. Tanks kill squishes when they use there entire kits/rotations effectively instead of right clicking. If tanks didnt have damage, they would just be ignored in fights.

On the other side I play tanks and still die is 3 seconds at full build so damage overall needs to be addressed.