Shyvana is now a reminder to the enemy team to ward dragon...

Mira Arya Enthe·Nov 25, 2016·27 votes·2,190 views

And I said it would be the one problem when I first saw her new passive was dragon reliant.

Literally this every single game -.- "All I gotta do is gank bot and ward dragon and Shyvana has no passive lol."

The new passive is not only a nerf to mid and late game tankiness overall, but now picking Shyvana is nothing more than a reminder to the enemy team that dragon is an objective. Meanwhile your team couldn't care less still...

And before you say her new passive is to compensate power in other areas. It doesn't. Her win rate has plummeted and aside from that all the other abilities already were self compensated for their changes.

W: Lost flame trail gained size. E: Lost human form power gained dragon form power. R: Lost 100 range and double MR/Armor from passive and damage, gained unstoppable and a tiny chunk of HP

The passive nerf, because that is what it is, wasn't needed. Her new passive is a joke, but after all, everyone complained the old one was 'not interactive', you all got just what you wanted. GJ.

73 Comments

RequiemsfireNov 25, 201612 votes

I already knew this was gonna be the case. Being balanced around a situational passive is stupid. It's thematic and cool, but there's nothing really rewarding about it.

I hated it, because I knew they would cut down on power else where causing her team fight presence to be completely situational as to whether or not you can secure dragons. It's not like Kindreds passive where Jungle monsters are always available in the enemy's jungle at some point in the game, or Rengar's on how he has to slay champions or gain assists, rather there are only a handful of dragons to secure each game and they can be easily denied by vigilant team.

NogrimNov 25, 20165 votes

its my new reason not to play her, this was a pretty major nerf to her in almost every type of play. the only time she will even be on par with her old craptacular state was if your team helps you camp dragons.

frankly if your team is grabbing the first 3 dragons you are pretty much guaranteed a win on any jungler but shyvana.

Great MutaNov 25, 20164 votes

The Shyvanna rework fixed none of her issues such as her bad early game and no pre-level 6 ganking oppurtunities. Instead it just improved what she was already good at. No idea why they even bothered. The only good thing it did was make her ult uninterruptable.

She's going to have the same pick rate, ban rate and winrates as she did pre-work and you won't be seeing her in LCS.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 25, 20163 votes

Well to be fair they have to leave some weaknesses on her.

So they wanted to buff up her strengths while leaving clear weaknesses.

Great MutaNov 25, 20162 votes

Well to be fair they have to leave some weaknesses on her.

Why? There's a lot of champs right now whose strengths clearly outweigh their weaknesses or do not have significant enough game affecting weaknesses.

We know what Shyvana's weaknesses are going to get her - under 50% winrates, low pick rates, low ban rates and no chance of ever being played by pros.

All champions should be put in a position to win and Shyvana hasn't been in that position for a long time.

TyrekGoldenspearNov 25, 20162 votes

Probably because they want to stop making champs that have unclear weaknesses. So when they update champs they do it in a way that better fits their balance philosophy.

Great MutaNov 25, 20162 votes

It's not a sufficient enough answer.

Why is it okay for some champs to be strong consistently while others have to be weak consistently? It's not.

The player should decide the strength of the champion, not Riot.

Troll for TrumpNov 25, 20161 votes

And this leads to certain problems. Sion was one of the most clear ones.

A recent one was Leblanc . For her, I guess they wanted to stop "ranged insta-delete." Now it's too telegraphed and delayed so anyone with half a brain will have no issues with her

TuplamelaNov 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VontLEIF,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2016-11-25T18:04:39.200+0000)

The Shyvanna rework fixed none of her issues such as her bad early game and no pre-level 6 ganking oppurtunities. Instead it just improved what she was already good at. No idea why they even bothered. The only good thing it did was make her ult uninterruptable.

She's going to have the same pick rate, ban rate and winrates as she did pre-work and you won't be seeing her in LCS.

Well, as weak as her early game is, she can still invade and duel hell out of many early ganking junglers (Gragas, Eve, Lee). I wouldn't say that she is particularly strong, but she has her good match-ups.

Great MutaNov 25, 20161 votes

Shyv is not the favorite in any of those fights early on and atleast in Grag's and Lee's cases, both can get over a wall to get away, while Shyv can't without a flash.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRNov 25, 20163 votes

Didn't you just make a post saying how much you loved the new changes?

NogrimNov 25, 20163 votes

there is a pretty big difference between how you think a change will effect a champ versus the experience when it actually goes live.

imho the dragon being the source of your ability to tank is stupid, as it allows the enemy to simply focus that objective and knee cap the enemy jungler on top of the advantage it already gives you.

picking shy now means your own team has to be 100% focused on getting dragons or risk their own jungle stalling and being utterly useless late game, making the main focus of the entire game on dragon. that really really sucks for any non-5 man team play.

the removal of the fire trail has effectively removed any sort of disengage she had, you could always chase but the damage from the fire trail was the only thing that discouraged people from sticking to you to chase the kill.

i didnt forsee the fire trail nerf making that big of a difference but i have watched three games now where people didnt chase initially, but quickly realized there was no reason not to anymore and almost always were able to catch up with dashes or CC and then kill me, when previously they would have taken a ton of fire damage doing so and lost the trade when i turned back on them with a fire ball or Q.

imho the ability to bug out with the old fire trail covering your ass when things got hairy in a team fight was the core of her old kit with out it she is not really worth playing any more. she feels worse than aatrox now

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20162 votes

Lost three kill secures on tower dives because I forgot my trail was gone xP

Asayake 5150glowNov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

there is a pretty big difference between how you think a change will effect a champ versus the experience when it actually goes live.

imho the dragon being the source of your ability to tank is stupid, as it allows the enemy to simply focus that objective and knee cap the enemy jungler on top of the advantage it already gives you.

picking shy now means your own team has to be 100% focused on getting dragons or risk their own jungle stalling and being utterly useless late game, making the main focus of the entire game on dragon. that really really sucks for any non-5 man team play.

the removal of the fire trail has effectively removed any sort of disengage she had, you could always chase but the damage from the fire trail was the only thing that discouraged people from sticking to you to chase the kill.

i didnt forsee the fire trail nerf making that big of a difference but i have watched three games now where people didnt chase initially, but quickly realized there was no reason not to anymore and almost always were able to catch up with dashes or CC and then kill me, when previously they would have taken a ton of fire damage doing so and lost the trade when i turned back on them with a fire ball or Q.

imho the ability to bug out with the old fire trail covering your ass when things got hairy in a team fight was the core of her old kit with out it she is not really worth playing any more. she feels worse than aatrox now

You first back blue smite and a Control Ward at level 4. I've rarely given up first drag playing Shyv.

NogrimDec 3, 20161 votes

the problem isn't being able to take dragon, shes always been good at that, the problem imho is because her passive hinges on it so much the enemy team is more likely to control ward it themselves and swarm you when you try to steal it. being the only champ (that i recall) whos power is directly tied to a major objective is a major problem because it is amplifying the importance of that objective for both teams when it is already a pretty major factor in determining the outcome of games and the power curve of the entire team that takes it.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRNov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

there is a pretty big difference between how you think a change will effect a champ versus the experience when it actually goes live.

I agree I liked her old dragon form W better, but Mira said (s)he liked the changes after they had already come out and (s)he'd tested them a bit in actual games.

NogrimDec 3, 20161 votes

im mixed with the new W, the larger radius definitley does push it to be more of an aggressive/stay and fight role.

but her fire trail was literally the only reason she could disengage when things got hairy. now i find im forced to hold on to dragon decent as its my only escape ability. imho its utterly broken that i have to save my damge/interrupt ult as a means of escape.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 25, 20162 votes

funny thing is i still never see a Shyvana in any of my games... i cant think of the last time i did. im gonna look at match history to see

Big LincolnNov 25, 20162 votes

xxddddd i thought shyvana was excellent and amazing now ????

that's a weird 180 in the span of 2 days haha

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20162 votes

She is, but like I said before the rework went live. The passive being reliant on dragons is a bad idea. That is the only problem with the rework

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 25, 20162 votes

build her like this

item 1401 item 3153 item 3091 item 3053 item 3748

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20162 votes

That is a good build imo. But many people would not agree.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 25, 20162 votes

the bonus hp you get with cinderhulk with the hp in the items. plus the bonus base ad , attack speed , lifesteal, mr, MR reduction ,(helps cinderhulk aoe damage and her aoe damage) plus the bonus hp on her ult with cinderhulk damn never unkillable

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20161 votes

I personally build her

item 3748 item 1401 item 3143 item 3065 item 3153 item 3009

Late game I trade the boots for a Tri-Force or Phantom Dancer.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 25, 20162 votes

but with item 3053 makes you so much of a threat when you get low hp and the bonus flat ad helps every auto attack and it stacks with cinderhulk hp bonus and you have enough armor/mr from passive and more hp makes them more effective. plus item 3748 does more damage the more hp you stack. also witts end is completely under rated on her with the ability to gain mr do bonus magic damage on hit and reduce the targets mr and the attack speed bonus

Muted SummonerNov 25, 20162 votes

Never played shy because I thought her kit looked extremely outdated and boring. Her kit is roughly the same but now...shes nerfed. They gave her buffs but...those nerfs were heavy. That passive is worse than Skarners passive and I hate Skarners Passive Spires. I hate a part of a champions kit not being with you at all times, especially when that was never the case for them. It really hurts you if you fall behind from what ever the reason.

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20161 votes

The problem is, every passive you could give to Shyvana belongs to somebody else already.

Bleed! She is a savage Dragon! Oh... Darius... HP Regen! She is a half Dragon! Oh... Garen and Mundo... Burning! She is a Dragon! Oh... Brand... Lifesteal! Because she gains power by savagely devouring her foes! Oh... Nasus... Attack speed from taking damage! Because she is swift and savage! Oh... Olaf and Jax... Hybrid Shred! Since she deals hybrid damage! Oh... Kayle... HP regen from killing things! Because Dragon! Oh... Cho'Gath... Conditional Tenacity! To help her be an unstoppable Dragon! Oh... Irelia... Gains defensive stats that stack by dealing damage! Oh... Sejauni... A last breath type HP regen effect! Oh... Volibear... An epic cheat death because of bloodlust and fury effect! Oh... Aatrox...

Like, what do you give a furious, mighty, swift and savage half dragon, that isn't already taken...

Muted SummonerNov 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VontLEIF,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-11-25T04:42:33.469+0000)

The problem is, every passive you could give to Shyvana belongs to somebody else already.

Bleed! She is a savage Dragon! Oh... Darius... HP Regen! She is a half Dragon! Oh... Garen and Mundo... Burning! She is a Dragon! Oh... Brand... Lifesteal! Because she gains power by savagely devouring her foes! Oh... Nasus... Attack speed from taking damage! Because she is swift and savage! Oh... Olaf and Jax... Hybrid Shred! Since she deals hybrid damage! Oh... Kayle... HP regen from killing things! Because Dragon! Oh... Cho'Gath... Conditional Tenacity! To help her be an unstoppable Dragon! Oh... Irelia... Gains defensive stats that stack by dealing damage! Oh... Sejauni... A last breath type HP regen effect! Oh... Volibear... An epic cheat death because of bloodlust and fury effect! Oh... Aatrox...

Like, what do you give a furious, mighty, swift and savage half dragon, that isn't already taken...

Maybe an ability where she empowers her abilities changing them to a different ability and I don't mean free stats//burn/etc Yeah it seems similar to gnar but by having her abilities change from the passive it makes her different. While still keeping Shyvana Shyvana.

NogrimDec 3, 20161 votes

or you could just give her back her armour and mag resists that actually allowed her to soak up some damage in fights. her whole kit hinged around those allowing her to actually soak up some damage late game, with out them she squishier than most assassins and has no gap closer aside from her terrible W sprint (not to mention wasting 90% of its damage on the air while you try to close the gap to melee range.

frankly i think Aatrox is in a better position than she is now, unless your team is helping to secure every single dragon that spawns. again that is a very broken mechanic that is going to make her useless in average play and likely over powered in organized voice teams.

its a very poorly scaling skill mechanic that is completely feast of famine.

Just Blame JennyNov 25, 20162 votes

So would you say you mostly like the overall direction, aside from the passive, which is too much of a nerf?

If so, do you think it would be possible to keep the current direction of the passive without it feeling like a 'nerf' (i.e. maybe it's just a little undertuned)?

Mira Arya EntheNov 25, 20161 votes

The kit itself is fine. The passive is just a more conditional version of her boring old passive. But with Shyvana's passive the problem is, every passive you could give to Shyvana belongs to somebody else already.

Like, what do you give a furious, mighty, swift and savage half dragon, that isn't already taken...

xWatersNov 25, 20161 votes

Well from reading this, I encourage you to develop a unique passive that no champions currently has that would fit Shyvana's theme. I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

Nero of VaelNov 25, 20161 votes

Movement speed

Nero of VaelNov 25, 20161 votes

Make her passive scale with how many points are in the ult and have it where dragon form becomes a toggle at max investment.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 25, 20167 votes

what if she gained stats by killing the dragon

reaperteaserNov 25, 20161 votes

y not smite deals xtra damage to dragons, give her the dragon steal niche champ

RaiokuMoonscarNov 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

y not smite deals xtra damage to dragons, give her the dragon steal niche champ

it used to be 10% extra dmg with smite as well with her passive but that was a bug

Just Blame JennyNov 26, 20161 votes

So in short, it's mostly a tuning problem combined with a questionable passive (which may, itself, just be a tuning problem). I can agree with that. I've done quite well with her post-rework (in norms, albeit, which are relatively easy), but I do feel her passive needs a bit more oomph. I'm not sure how I feel on it being so objective-oriented (you outlined the problems pretty well!), though there is a flip side: with the bonus damage, nabbing dragons has never been easier.

As for the suggestion that her e needs a slow (from another poster), I don't think that's an altogether terrible idea. That said, I do like that you're forced to play around Shyvana's weaknesses. From masteries (e.g. stormraider's surge), to runes (e.g. movement speed quints), to summoners (e.g. exhaust, ghost), to items (e.g. swifties, deadman's, frozen mallet, chilling smite), you've a lot of options to mitigate her weaknesses. What's more, you're rewarded for holding onto your ultimate to use as a gap closer, rather than necessarily using it as an initiator 100% of the time. Some of that, I think, is a good thing. It rewards smart play and itemizing properly against the enemy comp.

Which is not to say she doesn't need something more in the way of helping her engage. I really dunno. I'm just a lowly silver that plays Shyvana on occasion for fun.

DeathTheHorsemanDec 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VontLEIF,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-25T04:38:44.136+0000)

The kit itself is fine. The passive is just a more conditional version of her boring old passive. But with Shyvana's passive the problem is, every passive you could give to Shyvana belongs to somebody else already.

Bleed! She is a savage Dragon! Oh... Darius... HP Regen! She is a half Dragon! Oh... Garen and Mundo... Burning! She is a Dragon! Oh... Brand... Lifesteal! Because she gains power by savagely devouring her foes! Oh... Nasus... Attack speed from taking damage! Because she is swift and savage! Oh... Olaf and Jax... Hybrid Shred! Since she deals hybrid damage! Oh... Kayle... HP regen from killing things! Because Dragon! Oh... Cho'Gath... Conditional Tenacity! To help her be an unstoppable Dragon! Oh... Irelia... Gains defensive stats that stack by dealing damage! Oh... Sejauni... A last breath type HP regen effect! Oh... Volibear... An epic cheat death because of bloodlust and fury effect! Oh... Aatrox...

Like, what do you give a furious, mighty, swift and savage half dragon, that isn't already taken...

Shyvana http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/77/Fury_of_the_Dragonborn.png/revision/latest?cb=20130929123244 #Fury of the Dragonborn:

Effects:

When at full rage bar Shyvana gets 25% slow reduction and 1/1.25/1.5% of her MISSING HP as TRUE DMG on hit
When Shyvana enters dragon form the slow reduction is increased to 50% and the bonus missing HP TRUE DMG is 2/2.5/3%
When Shyvana leaves dragon form she loses her passive until her rage bar is full again.
When Shyvana slays a dragon she will bathe in their blood and absorb their power to harden her own scales => +5 Armor & MR bonus when entering her **dragon ** form for each dragon slain.

Now before you start shouting "Omg this is OP/UP" look at the math:

Passive notes:

Shyvana now has rage bar from level 1 (so she has passive access pre 6)
After leaving combat for 10sec Shyvanas rage bar starts deteriorating by 2 fury per sec. (60 sec to go empty after not doing/taking damage)
Example for on hit TRUE DMG: Shyvana has 3000 max HP she is missing 1500 HP => passive does 0.03x1500=45 True DMG on hit (in dragon form for being 50% HP with 3000 max HP)
slow reduction functions like swift boots and http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/7b/Swiftness_mastery_s4.png/revision/latest?cb=20131122000449 Swiftness mastery but if she gets this item/mastery the bonus is added multiplicatively and not additively

Example Shyvana has 400 MS she gets hit by a 50% slow which leads to losing 200 MS but thanks to slow resist she gains back: [50% of 200 Dragon Passive= 100MS back) + [25% of that **remaining ** 50% = 0.25 x 100=25 MS (12.5%) multiplicative increase from Swifties] + [15% of the remaining 37.5% of the slow with swiftness mastery => 0.15 x 75 = 11.25MS (5.625%) =>Total of 68.125% (Dragon passive + boots + mastery) => 0.68125 x 200MS (MS lost to slow) = 136.25 MS back (has 336 MS instead of 200 MS when hit with 50% slow at 400 MS so she lost only 64 MS.) In human form it would be....... f*ck that you can calculate it.

_**

#Now, OP: https://i.imgflip.com/1f9r0d.jpg

Asayake 5150glowNov 25, 20162 votes

Tbh she always was...

TyrekGoldenspearNov 25, 20162 votes

Hmm.

I agree that the rework is overall pretty good, except for the passive.

It seems like objective control will always leave a champ overpowered or underpowed. If they are permanent.

Hear me out.

What if...

We give Shyv back her former resistances, but also add a special mechanic to her passive that lets her get temporary buffs that make her stronger for a time, so her theme will show through and she will have windows of power.

Think buffs like Blue or Red or Rift Herald buff, but exclusively for Shyv, depending on the elemental drake she or her team kills.

Shadow HazardNov 25, 20162 votes

Cute complaints when early stats are pointing more to the champ needing nerfs rather than buffs.

Sayonara ShabiNov 25, 20161 votes

you do realize u can solo drag very easily at early levels like if u see that the enemy jungler is top side just go solo drag lol

ProfirixNov 25, 20165 votes

If literally ANYONE shows up while you are doing dragon, you are dead.

Asayake 5150glowNov 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Blame Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VontLEIF,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-11-25T05:51:51.677+0000)

If literally ANYONE shows up while you are doing dragon, you are dead.

Who walks past the drag at level 4?

Sraeg2013Nov 25, 20165 votes

The jungler, the support and the mid laner who smelt blood at bot lane.

Ulquiorra995Dec 3, 20161 votes

Anyone who sees you because other team's support/jungler has a brain and is like "Hm, Shyv should be level 4 soon and is very likely to try sneaking dragon for her passive. I'm going to ward it".

Asayake 5150glowDec 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Anyone who sees you because other team's support/jungler has a brain and is like "Hm, Shyv should be level 4 soon and is very likely to try sneaking dragon for her passive. I'm going to ward it".

Which is why you first back blue smite and a control ward.

RexSaurNov 26, 20161 votes

?????

Shyvana is broken right now, shes seeing a lot of play in high elo.

NogrimDec 3, 20161 votes

i think this is the big issue with her passive, its too strong for highly organized teams and a hinderance for everyone who doesnt have the full teams support.

if you want to set a champ up to be useless to 90% of players and too strong for the other 10% this is how you do it.