[Game Design] @Meddler What's Riot's Stance on CDR?

DeathBurst · 2016-05-23T17:00:30.084Z

I'm perplexed... In pre-season, when Essence Reaver was released, lots of mage players complained that ADC had better access to CDR than mages. Reds answered that ADCs were allowed that because they didn't scale so much with CDR, but Mages who would scale harder should have to make a choice, a trade-off between high utility up-time (with CDR) or high damage burst (with AP). In mid-season, two seemingly contradictory changes were made: 3 new AP-items with CDR were introduced, it's now much easier to get CDR on mages ==> they shouldn't have to make a trade-off anymore? Athene's was changed into a utility item and was allowed to keep its mana regen, "because mages who go for utility instead a damage are allowed to have more up-time" ==> so the trade-off is still in effect? So the question is: What does Riot currently think about CDR? When and why full-CDR builds should be available? On what classes of champs? Are they happy with the current CDR itemization? Thanks :)

54795436_DELMay 23, 20161 votes

Is there any new plan for mages to build ap with armor besides zhonya or any ap items with more ap since zhonya's ap has been lowered?

Hinata RabbitMay 23, 20161 votes

What's your take on 40~45% cdr on recourseless champions IE Riven Garen Kat Shyvana Renekton etc who aren't gated by mana costs. But instead are just use it when it's up kind of champions

ModWulf HelhammerMay 23, 20163 votes

Those champions are typically designed with the idea that they are made to be spamming whenever possible, hence no resource in the first place. They have some other thing in return: Katarina really gains no benefit from CDR, Garen is highly vulnerable to kitting, Riven is dependent on snowballing, Renekton's weaker late game, etc.

Tychusfindlay919May 23, 20161 votes

[deleted]

DeathBurstMay 23, 20162 votes

"Uninstall" is never an appropriate comment, but in this case, his post clearly says "late" game.

Tychusfindlay919May 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"Uninstall" is never an appropriate comment, but in this case, his post clearly says "late" game.

It was edited, and I deleted my comment after he did such.

Nameless VoiceMay 23, 20164 votes

Why is Morellonomicon the only item with high AP and CDR now, though? It feels more mandatory than ever now.

Compare that to ADC attack speed items, where they can choose between Shiv, RFC, PD and Hurricane, which all give very similar stats (with some even sharing build paths), but have different actives to choose from.

After Morellonomicon, you are compelled to either buy defensive items or use CDR runes if you want to max CDR. Plus, I must admit that buying defensive items on a champion whose normal build already caps CDR now feels bad, because the extra is wasted.

DeathBurstMay 23, 20162 votes

Morello indeed feels mandatory for people who want CDR. AP Assassins and Burst Mages, and some Battle Mages too, don't scale much with CDR, so they go for RoA or Luden or some stuff like that. Think Annie, her goal is to kill you in one rotation, she doesn't care about CDR, or Swain, who want to drain-tank you with his ult, he doesn't care about CDR either.

Nameless VoiceMay 23, 20161 votes

Yeah, I more meant "this is the only choice if I want lots of AP and CDR" rather than "I feel I need to buy this on absolutely everyone."

DeathBurstMay 23, 20161 votes

well, i totally agree, but how is that a problem? An item being core for some champs is common. Look at Sunfire or Black Cleaver or Rylai. Lots of champs just rush this kind of item whatever the match-up.

RiotMeddlerMay 23, 20165 votes

Yeah, there are a couple of missing holes in AP/CDR itemization we still need to fill, another AP+20% CDR item in particular.

The Yetii RiderMay 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, there are a couple of missing holes in AP/CDR itemization we still need to fill, another AP+20% CDR item in particular.

Can't you just make it so Morellonomicon's CDR isn't Unique? That way players can get 200 AP, 800 mana and 40% CDR in two item slots, which is very decent.

RaxistaichoMay 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, there are a couple of missing holes in AP/CDR itemization we still need to fill, another AP+20% CDR item in particular.

This is somewhat off topic and I apologize for that, but is it possible that Haunting Guise will ever be made to build into another item? Haunting Guise provides a valuable stat (flat magic penetration) that mages can't get anywhere else but boots, but the item is hampered by the fact that Liandry's Torment is much more niche than the item it builds from.

Compare to the AD counterpart, Serrated Dirk, which builds into three other items, giving a variety of reasons to buy it and remain comfortable in doing so.

ReZisT LustMay 23, 20161 votes

how about tricksters hourglass :3 i was a huge fan of it [slayer-jinx-wink]

Nameless VoiceMay 24, 20161 votes

It was a fun item, but I think it would quickly get very annoying in a more serious game mode.

Hex VeilerMay 23, 20165 votes

Could Netherstride Grimoire help fill that hole?

+100% base mana regeneration +100 ability power +20% cooldown reduction

UNIQUE – MALICE: Gain 20% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage.

It may require a bit of tuning, and the regen should be changed to flat mana, but it seems like a good item to bring back into the game.

AptestMay 24, 20161 votes

CDR should be a choice with a meaningful downside. The meaningful downside, for an offensive champion, is loss of damage per "cast".

Therefore items that give high AP, or items that give "extra spells", should not have CDR on them.

otherwise they become "overall best offensive item ever" on account of having all the offensive stats in one neat package while the supposed "tradeoff" is a bunch of tank stats you don't want anyway.

P.S. you should seriously consider removing sorc boots (and compensate spell damage across the board). They constrain mage item choices by their very existence.

AMYS GRAVEMay 23, 20162 votes

I have to point out an inconsistency with riots stances here, and i hope i can prompt some discussion on your part

Xypherous from the PBE boards: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/79cto3EB-planned-69-mana-x-mp5-x-ap-x-mr-item-pass?show=rundown

Put it another way - Supports do need mana regen - but more so than that, they deserve strong mana regen.

They are the character class that has the least amount of agency over their individual position - and thus the class most deserving of going infinite with regards to resources. The more you decide to help your team rather than be an individual carry - the closer to 100% uptime you get to be as you basically have very little individual choice about when to recall or how to move around the map.

Supports get mana regen because their nature is that they need to stay in the field to support their team, and often dont get to back on their schedule because of their teams needs. Mages get flat mana because they have more agency over their map movements ie when to back.

ok fine, so why then do supports get flat wards that they have to back in order to refresh (sightstone+sweeper) while everyone else gets theirs refreshed while staying out (warding totem).

If supports are supposed to be able to get closer to 100% uptime then why is sightstone designed to force them to back and why are others wards refresh for them.

DeathBurstMay 23, 20163 votes

I fully agree with your post, but I often tag Meddler for short questions, and he usually comes in, post a short answer, and never comes back again. He is very busy and often answer to a few short questions but very rarely take the time to answer to something long and/or complex.

I suggest you make a new full thread of its own, with as concise an explanation as possible, and as precise a question as possible. Then post it in the middle of the day with "@Meddler" in the title ;)

AMYS GRAVEMay 23, 20161 votes

probably a good idea. I'll have to think about how to word it better to try to attract attention though, and i also know that he revisits threads he's commented on a few hours/days after he has done so to take a look at the conversation.

Its also a matter of there might not be a good way to present this because either answer (supports should or should not have 100% uptime) is probably going to call someone at riot out for contradicting other rioters in some way. I remember (but i can't find it right now) rioters defending both sides of this saying that sightstone cant have renewable wards because supports shouldn't have 100% uptime but now they've stat bound mana regen to supports for the opposite reason.

I don't really need a direct answer from him on this, because calling out another rioter's mistake just probably isn't worth the response, i just hope that at least i can spur on a conversation that they have internally at riot so they can make supports one way or the other consistently.

DeathBurstMay 24, 20161 votes

It's not as much calling someone's error as it is getting what their current view is. Design principles evolve, and new idea may emerge. But it's always good to know the principles behind a decision, it helps understand it and accept it.

As for this decision, it may not be as contradictory as it seems at first glance. If supports deserve high uptime because their goal is to enable others, so they don't chose when to act, they just react to the others' action, then it doesn't really apply to vision, because vision is precisely the only thing that supports actively control and manage on their own terms. I didn't answer that at first because what I want is a Red answer with the reality, not anons like myself theorizing on many plausible hypothesis*, but it shows that there may be a consistent explanation to this apparent contradiction.

Heck, if you look back at my OP, that's exactly what I did in this thread: "here is an apparent contradiction, could you tell us why it is like that?"

######(Theorizing between anons is fun and productive when it's about possible evolution and suggestions for the future, when it's about the how to change thing, or the why things should be changed. But when it's about why things have been changed, I find it rather pointless: there is nothing to actually discuss, there is an actual truth.)

The Yetii RiderMay 23, 20161 votes

Was there any concern that the new Athene's would add unintended power to Lux support? She's already a pretty decent poke support, but gaining the ability to heal her teammates with her shield is quite a big spike in her utility.

[Game Design] @Meddler What's Riot's Stance on CDR?

26 Comments

More from Gameplay

More by DeathBurst