Riven mains, what do you think about these Black Cleaver changes?

Asayake 5150glow··2 votes·2,469 views
2/8 PBE Update

The full item is still decent, only 10 less AD than it used to be which isn't terrible as we mostly got it for the armor pen and as the cheapest form of CDR. However, with Caulfields no longer building into it, our early game build path is now atrocious. Phage is not a bad item, but it doesn't give CDR and doesn't give as much damage as a Caulfields.

Kindlegem start is just not good. Especially with mastery damage going down, we're not gonna do any damage with a level six all in... with a Kindlegem.

So what do you think is gonna happen? Are we going to just first back a Phage instead? Will we grab a Caulfields then Black Cleaver (against tanks)? Or is Black Cleaver gonna be put off as a third or fourth item in our build, with Lethality or lifesteal, and CDR as our first item (Youmuus/Death's Dance)? Will we fill out 40% CDR with Lucidity boots and Maw/DD instead of Black Cleaver?

I know with the Lethality build that we've been abusing, this doesn't affect it too much unless against a full tank. But will that build become the optimal one after the nerfs? Youmuu's Lethality is getting dropped down to 15, which is a direct nerf which will probably stack with the possible 50%-50% change to Lethality's scaling.

I'm wondering whether we'll be replacing Black Cleaver with a straight up Last Whisper item for slot efficiency (particularly if we need the Grevious Wounds, we'll need that item slot!) as well as 50 more AD. The burst is also probably stronger, negating almost half of any Guardian Angels or Zhonya's being built, which amounts to more than BC would be shredding, as BC shred would not be applying to our first three instances of damage (actually not sure how this works, as Riven will deal three instances of damage in a single frame if combo'd correctly. Not sure how this interacts with Black Cleaver as of now, would all three be facing no armor reduction? Or all three facing the complete 15% armor shred which they'd shred upon hitting?)

Or do we just suffer through the bad build path and come out with a very similar item to what we had beforehand, except our laning is now both safer but with less kill potential?

17 Comments

Oleandervine1 votes

I relish the fact that Riven will now have to think about building items.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

I relish the fact that Riven will now have to think about building items.

Don't understand what you mean, sorry.

1011001110001 votes

Typically Riven players always just rushed Black Cleaver into any 10% cdr item(s) (depending on if they had cdr runes or not) and generally varied little in their first 2-3 items.

He's happy that Riven's buildpath is potentially changing.

Teémò1 votes

item 3072 Never see Riven's building this, but it used be pretty popular probably will see some usage, though tiamet for sure item 3077

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

item 3072 Never see Riven's building this, but it used be pretty popular probably will see some usage, though tiamet for sure item 3077

Lack of CDR is my main concern, however. BT and Tiamat items both don't give any CDR. Remember, we rely on BC for a large chunk of our CDR, 20% of it.

Teémò1 votes

I have never cared to much for maxing my cdr on riven right away. It has it's benefits, but don't doubt BT on her. The shield, The life steal, the ad, It was a core item on her a long way back, But because it doesn't shred armor like cleaver it only assets yourself. Plus it costs quite a bit. Though I know I could lose I won't xD cdr helps benefit from mistakes and will do more dps in the long run, but in a short time frame It's how fast you can 100-0 and her auto's heal her Though unlike a tank riven she can't be harassed or poked out of lane because she sustains to well, but her reliance on living resides in autoing for life steal. tldr. It's a split push riven more than a team fight, but her team fighting is more deadly with her quick bursts than a tank riven.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I have never cared to much for maxing my cdr on riven right away. It has it's benefits, but don't doubt BT on her. The shield, The life steal, the ad, It was a core item on her a long way back, But because it doesn't shred armor like cleaver it only assets yourself. Plus it costs quite a bit. Though I know I could lose I won't xD cdr helps benefit from mistakes and will do more dps in the long run, but in a short time frame It's how fast you can 100-0 and her auto's heal her Though unlike a tank riven she can't be harassed or poked out of lane because she sustains to well, but her reliance on living resides in autoing for life steal. tldr. It's a split push riven more than a team fight, but her team fighting is more deadly with her quick bursts than a tank riven.

Yeah, but in lane, Riven's biggest weakness is her cooldowns, and you will be punished in any slightly difficult match up if you ever decide to get near them without your cooldowns up. Minimizing that window it probably one of the best things for her.

Sustain is good if you're snowballing, as well, as it lets you take free trades which you may lose, but it doesn't matter since you can sustain and force them off the minions while they cannot (this is probably the biggest annoyance about the Trynd match up, you may win the trade, but then you can't go near him till you get your cooldowns up, and that means he gets to heal minions and deny you cs at the same time. That's why with Trynd, you generally go CDR rush, BC+Lucidity).

The potentially higher damage is good too, however, for the same reason I've started to run Precision over Intelligence sometimes (main reason being nearly oneshotting a Jayce with doublecast combo, then he gets away with less than a single bar left, and his team kills me. I had Intelligence that game... Precision would've got me the kill). That reason is because if you can kill your opponent in a single rotation, you don't need CDR as much (although it helps with getting R off CD).

However I believe even so, the Lethality from Youmuu's would be more effective, as well as a much better build path, along with 10% CDR and a handy active than BT.

Also, I would usually rather run Death's Dance. The CDR and healing from abilities is quite useful.

Tomosima1 votes

Riven is just pure cancer anyway builds full cdr one shots people anyway

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Riven is just pure cancer anyway builds full cdr one shots people anyway

You act like Mages don't usually get 40% CDR as well.

Remember, Riven runs 10% CDR in her runes. Zhonyas + Morello's, every mage now also has 40% CDR. Or maybe Abyssal over Zhonyas for that 10% extra magic damage.

Plus, CDR is a damage stat...

Tomosima1 votes

{quoted}

You act like Mages don't usually get 40% CDR as well.

Remember, Riven runs 10% CDR in her runes. Zhonyas + Morello's, every mage now also has 40% CDR. Or maybe Abyssal over Zhonyas for that 10% extra magic damage.

Plus, CDR is a damage stat...

Mages aren't frustrating to deal with unless its lets say ahri but generally id fight a Xerath over riven anyday of the week

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Mages aren't frustrating to deal with unless its lets say ahri but generally id fight a Xerath over riven anyday of the week

Those aren't the bs mages, the bs mages are Viktor Brand Syndra and to a lesser extent Lux

Tomosima1 votes

{quoted}

Those aren't the bs mages, the bs mages are Viktor Brand Syndra and to a lesser extent Lux

Id take these over Riven at least they cant pounce away half a map with a shield and a stun if i catch them out.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Id take these over Riven at least they cant pounce away half a map with a shield and a stun if i catch them out.

Riven's entire kit of dashes is less than two Renekton E's or a Camille E towards champions, dude. It's about the same as a max range Camille E when not towards champions.

Also these guys are the ones with the actually good stuns, like >1 second stuns. Riven's is .75 seconds.

Buñny1 votes

Both champions have their own problems, camille for example is mana hungry and has insanely high cooldowns compared to riven, aswell as a 1-phase dash that if fails or used incorrectly- gets her killed.

RexSaur1 votes

Its terrible, this patch is a huge nerf for riven.

Less damage masteries (she scales the most with them), shit bc build path (1 long sword total and being forced to rush phage lmao) and lethality nerfs across the board.

Basically every build she does is getting nerfed because she more or less always have to build BC and/or Ghostblade.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Its terrible, this patch is a huge nerf for riven.

Less damage masteries (she scales the most with them), shit bc build path (1 long sword total and being forced to rush phage lmao) and lethality nerfs across the board.

Basically every build she does is getting nerfed because she more or less always have to build BC and/or Ghostblade.

Delaying BC, however, could lead to the buildpath not being quite so painful - the full item is still almost as good as it was before the changes.

Lethality nerfs hurt, I agree. I'm wondering if we'll see more Death's Dance's for the big AD pick up, CDR, and sustain. Maw will probably be picked over EoN for it's CDR and if the Lethality nerfs hurt enough.

I've been a little confused with AP match ups since Maw's armor pen was removed (yes that was a while ago). I've seen people say Hexdrinker into Youmuus, or just rush Youmuu's and burst them down at level 6. Lethality nerfs hurt the early Youmuus, while Maw's components are very tempting (Caulfields which is great, and Hexdrinker against AP). Wondering if we'll see Maw first builds?

Ahristocats1 votes

black cleaver will become an option against champions like malphite, that's it

masteries are a nerf, but overall needed for the game and affects a lot of champions which means it's a minor nerfed since you will be against other nerfed champions

you're going to rush youmuu, or duskblade only youmuu is getting nerfed and will still be decent anyway

having to change an item doesn't mean your champion is nerfed, lethality build is already a thing right now on riven while skipping black cleaver

More from Gameplay

More by Asayake 5150glow