Can Mordekaiser get a new W, pretty please?

Malicious Metal·Dec 6, 2015·74 votes·2,572 views

It just feels like most of his problems come from this one skill. The sustain is considered an issue The restriction seriously hurt his solo lane The xp passive is more of a duct tape fix and seems really unfair/"lazy" It's not that interesting to begin with (And some morde mains miss the old shrapnel cloud that was creeping death)

So any work being done on his W? All his spells seem to be in a decent spot but both base stats and Harvester of sorrow might need some tweaking.

35 Comments

Painted CeltDec 6, 201516 votes

Hey, Malicious. How about this W? You might remember this from an old rework concept thread ages ago. This is the only part of that concept thread that I still think is really worth carrying over. I agree that his current W is a big part of his problem.

https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.16.1/img/spell/MordekaiserCreepingDeathCast.png&resize=32: W - Storm Within Cost: 26/32/38/44/50 Health Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11 Seconds Range: 750 Mordekaiser unleashes a protective cloud of metal shards to surround himself for 6 seconds, increasing his Armor by 10/15/20/25/30 (+15% bonus Armor) and Magic Resistance by 10/15/20/25/30 (+15% bonus Magic Resistance), and dealing 20/32/44/56/68 (+15% Ability Power) magic damage per second to nearby enemies.

[Friend of Misery] While Storm Within is active on Mordekaiser, he may recast the ability for free on an allied unit, granting his ally Storm Within's effects for the remaining duration. The protective clouds are discharged if they overlap, dealing 50/70/90/110/130 (+40% Ability Power) magic damage in an area surrounding the point of intersection.

[The new name is a reference to Metallica's "Thorn Within".]

This new W is similar to his original W, but with several improvements.

Firstly, the tank stat scaling buff encourages (without coercion) Mordekaiser to build as an AP bruiser/juggernaut. One of the original goals of the rework was to shift Mordekaiser to a bruiser/juggernaut from a straight AP building mage, and this would further encourage players to adopt that change in playstyle.

Second, the discharge mechanic creates more depth in Mordekaiser's gameplay by requiring interesting decision-making. Here are some example cases of different ways it could be played:

Maximize damage by shielding an ally/minion positioned apart from yourself and waiting for the last possible moment to intersect the shields. This usage gives the best waveclear potential but is the most choreographed and thus most of the damage is easily avoidable against enemy champions.
Engage on an opponent in the midst of a minion wave, shield self immediately but hold onto the second cast until the opponent attempts to flee, re-cast on a minion already in position to intersect shields. This allows you to get the buff + DOT from one shield for most of a fight while also having some reliability on getting the discharge damage for trading.
Same as option 2 except re-cast the ability as soon as possible for instant burst damage. This isn't an ideal use of the ability since it doesn't take advantage of the buff or DOT at all, and 0.4 AP scaling is rather low for a simple one-off damage ability. Still, this can be useful in situations where you don't have the option to stand near an opponent for long or you happen to need the damage as a finisher to complete your burst.
Shield yourself and an allied champion and attempt to keep both DOT effects on an opponent without having the shields actually intersect with eachother until the last moment. This is the most difficult case to pull off since it requires coordination with an ally to dance around an opponent, but if done perfectly, it doubles the DOT damage and makes sure that the discharge is available at will. This is easiest to do against stationary opponents, like Dragon/Baron.
Shield an ally with no concern for being able to follow up with the discharge. In some cases, it will be impossible to pull off a discharge because your ally is too far out of position or the fight is moving away from Mordekaiser too quickly. Even still, the ability has potential to reduce the damage Mordekaiser's ally takes while fleeing or engaging, so it has some value regardless.
Shield self while in an isolated duel. In this case, discharge will be impossible to make use of. However, the armor/mr buff and DOT could be enough to help win a 1 vs 1 if Mordekaiser's opponent is foolish enough to stay and fight in melee range.

Malicious MetalDec 6, 201514 votes

I like how it reinforces his Juggernaut niche while also giving him the partner synergy riot wants him to have.

Basically giving him ways to beef him up for fights is a great way to justify his low base stats and give him windows of power where one can abuse his low base tankiness.

This iteration of his W functions practically the same like his old Creeping Death, giving him the Armor/MR for duels as well as a continuous AoE damage dot to fill his shield.

Painted CeltDec 6, 20157 votes

Yep, exactly! It's a familiar feel to the old Creeping Death, but nudged in the bruiser/juggernaut direction and with greater playstyle depth.

As you mention, it also creates windows of power which Mordekaiser and his opponent would need to manage. The discharge damage from intersecting the shields could provide a smallish chunk of instant AOE damage, which could be used to add to burst and generate shield in an emergency. But at the same time, discharging the shield early in a fight would cut off the DOT and tank buff, closing an important window of power for Mordekaiser.

LudovicoDec 6, 20151 votes

As cool as that sounds, THIS statement makes it pretty much obsolete...

Zenon, is it possible to know why sometimes you(or the balancing/champUp? team) don't take suggestions in the boards/reddit about ways to change the abilities of the champion? with this i mean ie: if you haven't read it, the "17 color coded pages about shaco rework" left me hoping it was legit!‎

I'll answer this a little more broadly:

Player feedback is great for us when it comes to what works or what doesn't work. What frustrates you, how does a certain spell make you feel, etc. When it comes to suggestions for what should be done, in 99% of cases we don't really look at them. Sorry if this comes across as mean, but we have designers with years and years of experience who'll still come up with the wrong solutions half the time. Our design process is highly iterative. Identify a problem, form a hypothesis, attempt to prove or disprove the hypothesis through playtesting, adjust your solution, rinse and repeat. A single "solution" presented in a vacuum does us no good at all.

Malicious MetalDec 6, 20154 votes

The core design of a defensive boost and AoE damage would be vague enough for them to toy with. Besides, it's basically a tweaked version of his Creeping Death.

YumaS2AstralDec 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As cool as that sounds, THIS statement makes it pretty much obsolete...

source?

LudovicoDec 6, 20151 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/12/red-post-collection-follow-up-on.html

Scroll down to the ZenonTheStoic Ask.fm roundup. It´s one of the questions there.

Stars ShaperDec 6, 20152 votes

So we can't suggest Lore in any possible way because it frustrates writers and so even good ideas not only are not taken in consideration but they won't be used at all. Now we can't even suggest changes because we might get some of the devs butthurt.

How about Riot starts to fire ppl unable to come up with solution so clear that even a bunch of illiterate guys can come up with?

JotunheimrDec 6, 20154 votes

I think this is a wonderful idea for a w change!

Although, since the time of AoE damage can be shorter, the AoE damage should be higher, and deactivation damage/heal should remain in tact as well.

That heal is nice man.

And timing the deactivate damage for last hitting champions.. That is so nice. Wonderful even. It's saved my allies from death and allowed me to sustain to do so. The deactivate heal must be kept. I feel it helps be able to do sustained damage when utilized to it's best capacity.

JotunheimrDec 6, 20154 votes

Think about it... 3 Q's and 3 w's, huehuehue

Obviously with this change exp passive is gone

MordepoolDec 6, 20157 votes

Oh please. Rework W &Give him MS.

Pale PirateDec 6, 20151 votes

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/618843226997288960/42JK8BSu.jpg http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Heck-No-Meme-24.jpg http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/423/untitle.JPG

On a serious note, if he gets movement speed he will no longer be himself.

Malicious MetalDec 6, 20154 votes

Sure, not like his old MS was 340

He lost a whole 15 MS in his rework as well as 200 base health and 5 base armor.

I don't want him to be a speedy ball of metal death but a bit more MS on a champion with no innate CC or mobility wouldn't hurt.

Heck, lee sin, one of the most mobile champions got 350 MS >_>

UTIDAWADec 6, 20152 votes

Not to mention that every other juggernaut has more MS and some form of MS reduction, gap closer, or speed buff while also being much tankier in terms of raw health

Darius MS: 340, Max health @ 2282, his E pull, and a slow on his w and e

Garen MS: 340, Max health @ 2049, his Q gives him a speed buff and he gets free stats from CSing

Nasus MS: 350, Max health @ 2091, his W gives a pretty gnarly slow to both MS and AS, and again free stats from CSing

Skarner MS: 335, Max health @ 2131, bonus MS on W, slow on E, stun on his passive, and suppression on his ult

Now if we add in Morde's shield to his total health calculation then he is beefier in terms of base "health" at all points of the game if he has a full shield. However, with it decaying almost instantly out of combat to only 25% of his total shield @ most he loses that base "health" advantage to other juggernauts at lvl 1 and to nasus at lvl 2.

Painted CeltDec 6, 20153 votes

I think Braum/Malphite/Skarner level base movement speed of 335 would fit perfectly. I think it's fine for Mordekaiser to be the least mobile juggernaut (no mobility/CC abilities) and that's part of his identity as a hulking metal titan, but having only 325 base movement speed exaggerates that weakness too much. Having 335 movement speed would still feel immobile but it wouldn't feel gimped.
Morde would still need to invest in items for sticking power ( item 3116 for example), but he would have a little better time laning and keeping up with his team when moving around the map.

Malicious MetalDec 6, 20157 votes

You know, I could actually live with 325 MS if Morde would be tankier by default. I'd rather be hulking and slow than fragile and speedy.

Painted CeltDec 6, 20155 votes

Me too. I agree entirely. I think 335 movement speed would still be low enough to feel hulking and slow when combined with Mordekaiser's absence of built-in CC/mobility abilities though.

+1 http://i.imgur.com/yS9kN3q.gif?noredirect

SicksadpandaDec 6, 20154 votes

I feel like they need to rework him again, and this time, a proper rework.

What Is SmiteDec 6, 20152 votes

Morde's W feels fine but could use a bit more love for his solo laning prowess, rather than drain HP from a max of 2 minions he should be allowed to drain from any number of minions with a cap max for the amount drained + AP Scaling

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Well sure, OK. Let's put a HP cap instead of a number of minions cap. Let's say the value of this HP cap is 2 times the damage dealt to each target.

Oh, wait... It's the same thing. And for your information, the heal you receive already scale with AP (since it is the same as the damage dealt, and the damage scale with AP).

MooninitesDec 7, 20152 votes

what if we just admit that the mordekaiser rework was a colossal failure and fire certainlyT? Despite all the feedback he was given about the impossibility to balance mordekaiser as well as a number of thematic and gameplay problems he ignored them and legitimately suggested that the proper way to play him is to "roam and take everyone's cs or play a 5 man mid comp". The dude is one of the most incompetent fucking clowns

Hemulen MagiDec 8, 20152 votes

Even CertainlyT's coworkers and friends openly agree that the bonus XP on Morde's W is bs. I can find quotes if needed.

The idea was worth a try and CertainlyT can experiment with whatever he wants, but it should never have even got out of Riot's private testing and definitely shouldn't have gotten out of the PBE.

rtbf32633503Dec 8, 20152 votes

Someone said I should post this from my thread so doing so.

Make his W castable on enemies. He gains MS when moving towards them, the Dot hits them of their circles touch. But they won't take the activation dmg. This way he chooses speed or burst. Tweak numbers if needed.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 6, 20151 votes

he needs a new ult too

OshletDec 6, 201510 votes

I think power could be moved away from his ult (hello dragon) but the stealing the souls of champions needs to remain.

Jet SettDec 6, 20151 votes

Hey Malicious I have a question about Morde, how do you specifically use him and how is he generally used? I ask because I tried him yesterday but was completely destroyed in two games early (and late in the first one) by a Vayne and Illaoi respectively. I can't say I have any real experience with him as I jumped off the "OP" bandwagon early because it felt gimmicky bot lane even for me, it was mostly high damage and pet drag. But after the fixes he seems interesting again. I mostly wanna know how you deal with these base stats, for a big metal suit of armor he sure is squishy, and it doesn't really go away much with levels either, it feels weird because I have no experience with him so I don't know where the power in his kit comes from aside from Q strikes.

Malicious MetalDec 6, 20151 votes

Sure, I'd be glad to help you out, any specific questions you'd want answered? 'Cause if we're generally talking about Morde we'll be here for a while^^

Jet SettDec 7, 20151 votes

Mostly, where the power in his kit is and how to play around his rather poor base stats since he has no cc or gapcloser. Also how he is played currently and how YOU specifically play him.

ZLbSwAR23IDec 6, 20151 votes

He's had so much attention over the last two years whilst champions like Talon haven't seen updates since Season 4.

He can just rot in a corner for all I care, he's a problem champ and he's distracting Riot from updating everything else.

MordepoolDec 7, 20154 votes

Lol. If they actually spent 2 years on him Morde might actually be good. But they didn't. They slap this Rework together in 2 months tops. And just and FYI the last time he got any major work was. S2 I was there

SpoofghoulDec 7, 20153 votes

yes rework talon into a tank do it rito

HemulusDec 8, 20152 votes

lol Turn Lee Sin into a bot lane support. Imagine the backlash.

TorgalDec 7, 20151 votes

He need à real new gameplay i guess.

ATM he's place (botlane) he realy.... not a good idea. And solo lane, he is so bad.

Give him a tank role, or like a real juggernaut. But do something, he need some help actually. Rework him for the top lane or I don't know.

HemulusDec 8, 20151 votes

F1eshandB1oodDec 9, 20151 votes

Rito currently wants to shift Morde from less of a bursty champ to a more sustained damage champ, one that gets stronger the longer he can stay in a fight. I personally have always had that kind of idea for Morde, so maybe something like this would be of use:

W: Passive: Morde’s bonus armor and magic resist increase steadily the longer he remains in combat.

Active: A torrent of souls and metal shards surround Mordekaiser for several seconds, damaging nearby enemies and healing Morde for a percentage of the damage dealt to enemy champions. The area of effect for this spell increases with Morde’s bonus armor and magic resist