Base Armor increased to 27 from 24. Demacian Standard (E) no longer increaes Jarvan IV's armor by 10/13/16/19/22
Meanwhile 
basically untouched, among other problem picks.
Seriously, nothing for Lee? Not a damn TICKLE?
Leblancs Boob6 votes
Schteltzer2 votes
SlytherinUmbreon5 votesAre there more changes? When I saw "Gutted" I expected more...
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesI don't think you understand how important armor was to J4 early. It basically meant he could have a breezy time through the jungle with a good junk of extra armor.
Along with that, Kassadin losing almost 300 units on his ult, going from 700 range to 450
SlytherinUmbreon1 votesI haven't really kept up with his build lately, but unless he maxed Standard first he's only lost 7 armor. This is, at worst, going to put him behind the other over the top Junglers while still leaving him ahead of everything else. He still has all of his engage, and his clear time is untouched. So he's still the best tank Jungler. Unless there are more nerfs incoming. I just don't see how that 7 armor would be a complete "gutting" unless he was just barely making the first clear before. EDIT: well never mind then. Went and read a few other posts. On the bright side there's a chance that if they nerf all of the top champions first clear, they might realize it's time to either weaken the jungle camps slightly or give us back the old spirit stone passive.
MrPerson103 votesThat's hardly gutted.
was gutted
was beyond gutted
The only change that bothers me is Kass' ult range reduction - he already has enough mobility problems without reducing that, unless they also intended to reduce the mana cost and CD.
Also in terms of lee/zed, they both have what we'd consider to be high skill caps - you don't pick up playing either one very well your first day of league. Takes practice to make them truly fun and give you their full potential, you put in those hours and you get rewarded for it.
DrCyanide4 votesAlso in terms of lee/zed, they both have what we'd consider to be high skill caps - you don't pick up playing either one very well your first day of league. Takes practice to make them truly fun and give you their full potential, you put in those hours and you get rewarded for it.
Except that, by Riot's own difficulty system, Veigar is more difficult than Lee Sin and is tied with Zed. Those hours of practice landing the stun are going to be wasted, but landing a skill shot that moves like every other skill shot? Having instant AoE slow? Those are tough things to learn!
MrPerson103 votesLearning to use him properly and effectively takes more time than jumping on and saying "derp I'm gonna try and play zed today"
Same situation with Lee sin.
Veigar has a pretty weak laning phase, even in comparison to Kat who has a trash laning phase - so yes, he takes some skill. Does the skill level necessarily mean their kit? No, I don't believe it does.
Gank in Progress3 voteshes not gutted. come on, j4 is just op.
and lee sin uh... well.... uhm... hes balanced because he.. is .. high skill cap? wait no that argument doesnt work anymore :^))))
vIbvdOwbko3 votesLee Sin is probably the least problematic of problematic jungle picks right now. This circlejerk where people hate on Lee is way too overdone.
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votesYeah I guess being top tier for 3+ seasons is not a big deal.
vIbvdOwbko2 votesLee's a good champion and has been for a long time. Very true.
Someone that sucks mechanically at Lee can't just play Vi, Panth, J4, to get way better results with absolutely no effort. Not true.
Lee might have more potential as a champion, but nobody will ever play him to his full extent. Someone can play the above mentioned easymode champions to get the same or better results much more reliably and with less effort.
Lee Sin was easy to play and do well with before he got nerfed the last few times and before the new jungle.
Fadedpf2 votesOh no my passive that gives me tank stats even though I was already a tank is gone. Why did you gut me rito
Praetor Don2 votesI was going to make my own thread, but I figured someone else would beat me too it....sadly, I was not wrong.
SlytherinUmbreon2 votesWell, now we get to sit back and count the threads? -3-
ProfDrDeath2 votesThing is, Jarvan has already a good Armor growth factor (3.6) and will get an even better base value (27 instead of 24, which will be around the 15-20th rank in level 1 Armor among champions).
If necessary, Riot could even increase that growth factor further, to something like 4, if the nerf proves too harsh.
However, that being said, it IS supposed to be a nerf, after all.
And unlike popular belief, Lee Sin is, powerwise, in a good spot currently, and needs more like a redefinition of his strengths and weaknesses instead of a straight-out nerf ( position 20 of 42 junglers .)
Mandang02 votesWhy does everyone label any significant nerf (to an obviously OP champ, no less) as a "gutting"?
If you keep nerfing w/ kid gloves, all we're gonna get are more of the Zed attack speed-type nerfs.
Schteltzer2 votesyes, seriouslee
Blastermine2 votes
Gutted how? I just can't see it.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesSee, the problem when it comes to balancing Lee is that A. He's fun to play and people agree and B. We've seen plenty of champs so called 'Gutted' by nerfs. So, Riot would rather get down to exact nerfs that would keep A. and make sure B doesn't happen. Same thing with Zed.
ModCaptainMårvelous4 votesDidn't seem to stop them with 
or
or
The list goes on.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesAzir was oppressive and they would've rathered to end his Cruel Reign and might buff him as they see fit. Evelynn with the ability to ignore wards work your way into great positioning, if you mind the circle, not to mention a speed boost, made early ganks a bit too reliable. But she's getting reworked so we'll see. Skarner, I honestly don't know what to say here. People don't like scorpions?
Retillin1 votesLol. Holy shit. I can't stop laughing!!!!!!
