If you want mid laners not to use support items

BeMyFriendPlease·Jan 16, 2016·173 votes·9,231 views

Add more cdr options so they can compete with "manaless/energy" "high-skill" champions without going to support items to do so.

Maybe fix it so the early mana regen isnt so terrible too?

111 Comments

ZarkkastJan 16, 201683 votes

Let's be real, the actual problem is not that midlaners do not have enough cdr options.

The actual problem is that AP itemization is expensive as fuck. Why would I go for something else when I can go for Frost Queen's Claim has one of the best actives in the game and is extremely cheap?

LankPantsJan 16, 201620 votes

{quoted}

Let's be real, the actual problem is not that midlaners do not have enough cdr options.

The actual problem is that AP itemization is expensive as fuck. Why would I go for something else when I can go for Frost Queen's Claim has one of the best actives in the game and is extremely cheap?

To add to this it also generates gold, meaning you get the gold for your first big AP item (as well as every other item) faster than if you built a different MP5/CDR item.

Shiyo KozukiJan 17, 20162 votes

It takes like 40 minutes for frost queens to pay for itself.

LankPantsJan 17, 20162 votes

It doesn't have to pay for itself, it just has to pay for the effective cost difference between itself and Morello's.

Math inc.

Morello's is worth AP=21.75x80=1740 M/5=5x100=500 CDR=30x20=600 Total=2840 %efficiency=2840/2550x100=111.37%

FQC is worth AP=21.75x50=1087.5 M/5=5x100=500 CDR=30x10=300 Total=1887.5 %efficiency=1887.5/2200=85.8%

To be as good as Morello's Frostqueen's needs to be 111.37% gold efficient, to reach this amount we need G/2200=(111.37-85.8)/100 G/22=25.57 G=562.54

After you've generated 563 gold from Frostqueen's it becomes a more cost efficient item than Morello's. This amount will not take that long to stack up. This is also before mentioning that FQC's active is orders of magnitude better than Morello's passive.

manbearswineJan 17, 20161 votes

Let's be fair here,the active alone is enough to make up for that.

And then don't forget that the passive,aside from giving you extra gold,also deals damage.

LlaniteJan 16, 20165 votes

False.

The problem is frostqueen being super cost-efficient. Even if Moroello price is cut 300g, they still buy frost queen, why pay more gold for the same effect?

The case only solves once something is more gold-efficient than frost queen, and changing DPS items to match the price of a support's is silly.

Princess EmmaJan 16, 201615 votes

No no no. It's true. The fact that AP itemization is so expensive is a reason why it is chosen. The active and the gp/10 is just another reason that adds insult to injury,

LlaniteJan 17, 20162 votes

AP items are at the right place, This is coming from someone who plays exclusively mid.

CDR IS expensive, because it's a strong stat on mage, i.e. 1/0.6 = 1.66 -> One gets 66% more DPS at 40% CDR. CDR is critical dmg of AP, no one gives you that deal at 100g. Pay what it's worth if you want it.

LankPantsJan 17, 20161 votes

You mostly play Fizz, a Lichbane mid. Of course AP itemisation feels good to you, you play a champ who synergises with an amazingly efficient item. Most champs can't build LB though.

LlaniteJan 17, 20161 votes

Huh? don't run around with 6 lichbane?

I buy exactly what you buy and still have to reach CDR cap, the only difference being lichbane which translates into ~200g advantage.

YfrappefortJan 16, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Let's be real, the actual problem is not that midlaners do not have enough cdr options.

The actual problem is that AP itemization is expensive as fuck. Why would I go for something else when I can go for Frost Queen's Claim has one of the best actives in the game and is extremely cheap?

This is my problem with AP items currently. I still think increasing their price overall was a mistake and it's the main reason item 3092 is being bought mid in the first place.

DrunKalistaJan 16, 20164 votes

You forgot to add how much more you earn with it.

sp441Jan 17, 20164 votes

Not only it's expensive as fuck, it's also fucking shitty.

You buy every expensive component, then still have to sit on your hands and wait until you get 1000+ gold to buy any high-tier item.

manbearswineJan 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Let's be real, the actual problem is not that midlaners do not have enough cdr options.

The actual problem is that AP itemization is expensive as fuck. Why would I go for something else when I can go for Frost Queen's Claim has one of the best actives in the game and is extremely cheap?

Look,let's be ACTUALLY honest about this:

The problem IS NOT mid laners,it's not their itemization,it has nothing to do with them.

The problem is tank supports dominated bot lane last season(making the vast majority of picks in solo q and competitive play),the not tank supports needed an overpowered item(just to be clear,old talisman was overpowered as well,and yet still wasn't enough) to compete for picks,then the obvious problem came up that once the item is fully built,solo laners get full(unlike any other support item) benefit from it,so since the item needs to be intentionally overpowered it became a pretty big problem fairly fast.

The problem here isn't other ap itemization,the problem isn't that the item is too strong for those it was intended for,the problem is that solo laners should not be able to make full use of it,same as solo laners can't make full use of fotm or talisman.

Nerfing the item further will just put as back to s5 domination of tank supports,but it won't cause much issues for mid or mages.

Zero Skill TankJan 16, 201629 votes

But than it would be too easy for them to abuse Zed's energy problems kappa

But yeah, lack of AP/CDR option is a problem now that Zhonya is both so expensive and mandatory to get as 1st/2nd item, and FQC was kind of a solution, that now is gone.

ViashinoWizardJan 16, 20162 votes

The only mages who want Zhonya's by their second item are Swain and Fiddlesticks.

Zero Skill TankJan 16, 201638 votes

Only mages who want, yes. But with Zed Rengar every second game all of them _need _it.

NegusInParisJan 17, 20161 votes

Ageed, even buy it sometimes as an attack damage based carry.

iamleburkJan 18, 20161 votes

Really? I always felt like GA would be a better pick up in that situation

NegusInParisJan 18, 20161 votes

Schhhhhhhh it's not meant to make sense

SolaxoJan 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But than it would be too easy for them to abuse Zed's energy problems kappa

There's a word "sarcasm". You should look into a dictionary sometimes.

LOL SpammerJan 16, 201615 votes

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/103530/2386293-the_joke_your_head_3-%28n1292804669453%29.jpg

alfavhunterJan 16, 201622 votes

Simple fix for frost queen is this

Disable the mana regen when the gold income aspect is disabled from getting CS

This would kill the item for solo lane AP but let it be buffed for supports more with mana regen

This makes supports have the mana regen be stronger when not taking CS and solo laners won't get the item because they basically abandon the mana regen effect to CS

This fixes frost queen, but doesn't fix AP itemization

A new item could be
dark tear of the goddess Tear of the goddess effect with 40 AP and 10% CDR and at max mana stacks of 750 it gives 10% more CDR and 3% of mana as more AP (doesn't stack with the other effect)

quasistellarJan 16, 20161 votes

Ooh that's actually a great idea!

TerchioJan 16, 20161 votes

I prefer someone else's, who said gold per CS drops for solo lanes. That way a CS build is still losing that income. I hate to drop the sustain when a flaky ADC or simply an AFK ADC ruins their game already, and that support is going to have a rough time surviving as is.

Or another obvious option is dropping the passive on CS, just like the two lower options. Face of the Mountain still needs an ally, and Talisman still needs you not to kill CS, why does FrostQueen suddenly become a legit solo item once fully upgraded?

quasistellarJan 18, 20161 votes

That's good too.

ChaoticPineconeJan 17, 20162 votes

That would be a huge buff for that item.

Seraphs is currently the strongest raw AP item in the game, second only to the Deathcap if you calculate in the Deathcap's passive. Adding 20% CDR on Seraphs makes the Seraphs a must buy - a single item shouldnt give mana, mana regen, 120+ AP, CDR, and a nice active shield that rivals barrier.

alfavhunterJan 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That would be a huge buff for that item.

Seraphs is currently the strongest raw AP item in the game, second only to the Deathcap if you calculate in the Deathcap's passive. Adding 20% CDR on Seraphs makes the Seraphs a must buy - a single item shouldnt give mana, mana regen, 120+ AP, CDR, and a nice active shield that rivals barrier.

It's not the same item, it's a different item

You give up the active effect and some base AP for CDR instead

The item would be stats like this

200 mana, mana regen, 40 AP 10% CDR 0-750 mana at 750 mana you gain an additional 10% CDR and 3% of your total mana is now AP

You trade the active effect and some AP for CDR

ChaoticPineconeJan 17, 20161 votes

You never mentioned anything about the active effect, but i still think it would be too strong of an item.

EVEN IF you nerf the base AP by 40, it will still be one of the strongest AP items in the game for a lot of champions. Warwick, who has the lowest base mana at 18, would get 92 AP from this item. Kassadin, with the highest base mana at 18, would get 116. You would need 1000+ base mana to make this item outclass most other AP items (the median is around 1100 mana at 18). So instead of only 1 item being stronger than this item, there would be 3: Deathcap, Rod of Ages, and the original Seraphs. Only the deathcap would be stronger if you stacked RoA and this new tear item.

The problem isnt in the concept, but because it would provide too much power. It gives a lot of AP to hit harder, provides the CDR to use that power more often, and gives mana to make sure you have the resources to use the power.

It would be like adding Attack Speed or Lifesteal to the Infinity Edge. Its would be too effective on the champions that use it.

alfavhunterJan 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You never mentioned anything about the active effect, but i still think it would be too strong of an item.

EVEN IF you nerf the base AP by 40, it will still be one of the strongest AP items in the game for a lot of champions. Warwick, who has the lowest base mana at 18, would get 92 AP from this item. Kassadin, with the highest base mana at 18, would get 116. You would need 1000+ base mana to make this item outclass most other AP items (the median is around 1100 mana at 18). So instead of only 1 item being stronger than this item, there would be 3: Deathcap, Rod of Ages, and the original Seraphs. Only the deathcap would be stronger if you stacked RoA and this new tear item.

The problem isnt in the concept, but because it would provide too much power. It gives a lot of AP to hit harder, provides the CDR to use that power more often, and gives mana to make sure you have the resources to use the power.

It would be like adding Attack Speed or Lifesteal to the Infinity Edge. Its would be too effective on the champions that use it.

It also doesn't reach that point until later game

Early game it gives 200 mana 40 AP 10% CDR mana regen and 0-750 mana

It only gives the 3% mana as AP and additional 10% CDR after you reach 750 bonus mana, it could also be changed to lose the base AP by changing the build path and then it would be purely mana and CDR and mana regen for this effect

200 mana Mana regen 10% CDR 0-750 mana (stacks the same as other tear items on spell cast) At 750 mana stacks you gain 3% of your total mana as bonus AP (doesn't stack with similar effects) and an additional 10% CDR

The point is it's a mana / mana regen/ CDR item that doesn't give much or any AP until late game

The DeckownerJan 16, 20168 votes

not just cdr, ap items in general are just very shitty

TotalJerkJan 16, 20166 votes

Mana regen doesn't need a buff. Energy regen needs a nerf, and resourceless champions need cooldown nerfs in general.

NinjaGuy69Jan 17, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Add more cdr options so they can compete with "manaless/energy" "high-skill" champions without going to support items to do so.

Maybe fix it so the early mana regen isnt so terrible too?

Mid laners aren't buying support items (which in this case I believe you're referring to Frost Queen's Claim) because of the CDR it grants. They're buying it because the item gives you so much free gold that it's ridiculous. The item allows you to generate enough gold to hit your mid-game power spikes much earlier, especially if you snowball hard. Plus the spooky ghosts active is ridiculously good in almost all situations. Want to engage on the enemy team? Send out your ghosts and chase down the stragglers that are unfortunate enough to get perma-slowed. Want to disengage? Send out your ghost to cripple two enemies and peel off the rest who are still chasing your team. Want to scout the river or jungle for enemy junglers or enemy laners roaming from other lanes? Pop your spooky ghosts and fap while they do all the work for you. It's pretty safe to say that an item is broken when it's 60 minutes into the game and you could buy a much more stat efficient item with all that extra gold you have, but choose not to because the active is so damn good.

Sure, more CDR options would be nice for mages but even if Riot made a relatively cheap item with (for example) 10% CDR, that still wouldn't fix the Frost Queen's Claim issue. Also, about the early mana regen, I don't think Riot is too far off the mark with the levels of early mana regen that some mages have. I agree that it could use some tuning, so hopefully they'll address it during the mage update that should be released in the middle of this year.

SnowFallJan 16, 20163 votes

Buff morellos.

VardaJan 16, 20162 votes

I dont like how a non AA mage's options for CDR is limited. And when you have a mana reliant mage like ryze or veigar or cass and build tear, if you want to go with a cdr build you have to consider morrelo which is just more mana. Idk

RendarkanJan 16, 20162 votes

It would probably be more beneficial to just have support items locked out off certain champs. Kinda like how they lock out certain range items for melee and certain ones for ranged. Have an item classification labeled 'Support' and any champ without that label is locked out of support based items.

WoonStruckJan 16, 201615 votes

{quoted}

It would probably be more beneficial to just have support items locked out off certain champs. Kinda like how they lock out certain range items for melee and certain ones for ranged. Have an item classification labeled 'Support' and any champ without that label is locked out of support based items.

Actually, what they need to do is make a support-only summoner spell that gives gp10 and some form of utility, whether it be wards or something like exhaust/crucible. In the case of crucible, cannot be self-cast.

In the case of wards, they already have a bunch of new shiny ward items they could replace with a support-centered summoner active and build-path similar to how jungle items work, which is to say they should have several options for passive stats, and several options that affect the active.

They did it to keep jungle items exclusive, why don't they do it for support?

VreivaiJan 16, 20162 votes

Or they could just add the part where it cancels the passive to FQC. Not sure why Spellthief's and Frostfang have it but FQC doesn't.

NaharaJan 16, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Or they could just add the part where it cancels the passive to FQC. Not sure why Spellthief's and Frostfang have it but FQC doesn't.

Wouldn't that just screw over supports, though?

TerchioJan 16, 20162 votes

Supports that CS, sure... just like it doesn't boost your income further when you kill units with Talisman. However, you gate gold generation when FQC wielder CSes, but then compensate slightly for it with something, and midlanes will still have more trouble using it than they are now.

That said, I don't think a slight FQC nerf is uncalled for in the support lane, either. FQC is meta in both lanes fairly strongly atm, as kill lane bot is more potent than ever before, possibly thanks to the Twin Shadows passive switch. ADC potency isn't helping things, either.

Tails DollJan 16, 20166 votes

So that supports dont have to care about getting a few CS mid/late game and ruinning their passive.

TerchioJan 16, 20163 votes

Yeah, but there's no caveat for the counterpart items (Face of the Mountain / Talisman). You're still equally as screwed if you have no lanemate for FotM. I understand that CS ruins FrostQueen's effect more than the other two, but really, a solo lane is a solo lane, and if a support turns solo, they shouldn't be as effective with a support item, or (duh) other solo lanes will, too. It's simple physics.

Carpe VictoriaJan 16, 20162 votes

Or just nerf spoopy ghost active.

LatetotheRaceJan 16, 20162 votes

I think they should just revert it to the old active, but people whined.

SKT T1 Maddog98Jan 17, 20165 votes

That old active was horrible. Reverting it would be a gigantic nerf.

really nice guy Jan 16, 20162 votes

This: either add more mana regen early game or add mana potions back!!

KiłluaJan 16, 20162 votes

Why cant riot just limit gold income items to 1 per team so they have to ruin the lives of support mains.

DreampodJan 16, 20166 votes

Given how things usually go that would result in the single gold item going on a champion that scales better with gold and the support being even more screwed.

exe3Jan 16, 20162 votes

They should also add more vision item actives outside of support itemization. I miss Twin Shadows on my mids. :(

ForeverLaxxJan 17, 20162 votes

The real problem is that Riot believes "off role purchases" are inherently bad. If you're not buying what they think you should, regardless of the effectiveness, they're going to change things until you do start buying from their pre-approved list of items. This is one of their big barriers to item diversity that they keep willingly running into over and over again.