First off. this is just asking when. all of you are in denial if you think zac doesn't need nerfs. just because a champion isn't flashy and doesn't outplay you doesn't mean they are not too strong.
high winrate high playrate high banrate
all signs pointing to nerfs.
RiotMeddler17 votesWe'll be investigating Zac in the next patch cycle, not yet sure if we'll be nerfing though. He's a popular pick and ban in some regions, but not in others, and his performance also varies quite a bit. Possible that's just a bit of local meta going on and he'll subside naturally, possible some regions have got on the Zac train earlier than others. Going to be looking into that.
We'll probably do a bit of work to make it clearer where his E's going to land for other players if nothing else, that's more a clarity improvement with some balance impact than a balance change though.
Critmaster Garen7 votesWe'll be investigating Zac in the next patch cycle, not yet sure if we'll be nerfing though. He's a popular pick and ban in some regions, but not in others, and his performance also varies quite a bit. Possible that's just a bit of local meta going on and he'll subside naturally, possible some regions have got on the Zac train earlier than others. Going to be looking into that.
We'll probably do a bit of work to make it clearer where his E's going to land for other players if nothing else, that's more a clarity improvement with some balance impact than a balance change though.
i think you need to do some work on illaoi too. she has a bunch of issues.
she gets countered too hard (mostly by ranged champions), and counters the champions shes good against a bit too hard.
in my opinion you need to change the tentacle mechanic again. they should be visible, but not targetable from outside bushes. it makes it too easy for ranged champions to deny her. the change was intended to give her opponents more clarity about her current power when fighting her by notn having tentacles hidden. but being able to destroy them from outside bushes is not neccessary for that.
she also has the issue of falling off like a rock lategame, when roaming around the map and macro play becomes more important than staying long enough in one place to set up tentacles.
imo increase the tentacle spawn time early and drastically decrease it mid/lategame together with the change above.
Raid Boss Morde4 votesThe thing about "she gets countered too hard (mostly by ranged champions), and counters the champions shes good against a bit too hard", this applies to pretty much every Juggernaut. That's not a problem that she has, but every single champion in that role has it.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Raid Boss Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VY78LxgV,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2016-10-01T02:58:24.556+0000)
The thing about "she gets countered too hard (mostly by ranged champions), and counters the champions shes good against a bit too hard", this applies to pretty much every Juggernaut. That's not a problem that she has, but every single champion in that role has it.
nah, while this might be generally true due to their weakness being kiting and sustained damage from a distance, while being strong in melee, there is still variation to that between the champions. for example morde will be less susceptable to ranged poke than garen, since he has ways to answer that poke and sustain from his shield to absorb it.
its just that illaoi is really taking this to the extreme right now. im not saying get rid of her weaknesses and strength. but they both could be tuned down a little to make the power gap between ranged and melee matchups not as gigantic.
i think changing her tentacle mechanic to make them visible from outside bushes, but not targetable would accomplish that. because it would force ranged champions to take almost the same risk as melee champions to walk up to them into the bush to take them out.
considering her ability to pull enemies with her test of spirit and either force them to back off or fight when she hits it, illaoi should actually be one of those juggernauts who has a slightly less difficult time against ranged champions. her q range and the sustain she gains from hitting it should be another factor that should make her better agaisnt ranged matchups than most other juggernauts. yet, its still entirely the opposite case.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesAlright, I see what you mean and completely agree. What I will say is...
Screw ranged top laners
That's about it... it just doesn't feel fair playing against a ranged champion as a melee one. You probably feel the same as your name suggests you play Garen.
Squidblimp5 votesI have a request. If you do this, could you base it on whether you have vision of Zac or not?
If Zac is smart and plays around/sweeps enemy vision, he should get a strong engage into a lane. Compare this to Lissandra's E, which can't easily be cancelled because it's an instant blink after the cast animation, but it's very telegraphed because of this. However, Zac's E is very easily cancelled due to the long cast time AND long fly time, plus unlike Lissandra he is rooted in place during the cast animation.
So basically, what I'm saying is that maybe just make the landing indicator more visible the moment you gain vision of Zac, but not during the time where you have no vision of him in the Fog of War. Otherwise I fear that Zac will become very unreliable.
Eedat6 votesNot trying to sound like a dick, but weren't 
and 
nerfed because of local metas?
What's the difference with 
?
Izaya30002 votesI feel like it would be a super heavy nerf, but what if you did something like 
ulti where it has a set travel time across all ranges, and use that change onto jump?
Boulderox2 votesI feel like it would be a super heavy nerf, but what if you did something like
Zac is the new gragas, but zac is entirely reliant on his e to position, where gragas had the luxury of tossing an r and have them come to him, zac has to be in the middle of a team to split them up...
He is strong but don't forget his Q and E are on very long cooldowns, even with some cdr.
flyingbaklava3 votesZac is a weaker pick the higher elo you go. In my climb on Zac, I felt he was a little too powerful in Platinum and below because people did not know how to spot his shadow and dodge/interrupt it. I would land it 70% of the time or more. In diamond, people spot the shadow often and I found myself getting dodged or interrupted half the time. In Diamond 1, I was dodged/interrupted 70% of the time or more. There came a point where it no longer surprised me that a Thresh flay or Alistar groundslam would knock me out o my slingshot. If the enemy team has a Janna or poppy, I can just forget about trying to hit the backline. For those who don't play Zac, landing Elastic Slingshot is the most important part of your kit. If you land it, you can carry a fight, if you miss, you are useless. I feel like if anything, Zac would need an adjustment to make him less oppressive in low elo's, but also more consistent in high elo's. I don't like being relegated to being a peel bot in high elo because I can't land a strong elastic slingshot. The fantasy of Zac, is to be the champion that can cause chaos to the backline if you find a good angle to fly in on and I just can't do that in high diamond because that shadow warns my opponents I am coming over a second in advance. You mention adding clarity, but I find opponents spotting and dodging elastic slingshot even when I try to hide the shadow amongst a group of minions.
ExecutorDill1 votesWe'll be investigating Zac in the next patch cycle, not yet sure if we'll be nerfing though. He's a popular pick and ban in some regions, but not in others, and his performance also varies quite a bit. Possible that's just a bit of local meta going on and he'll subside naturally, possible some regions have got on the Zac train earlier than others. Going to be looking into that.
We'll probably do a bit of work to make it clearer where his E's going to land for other players if nothing else, that's more a clarity improvement with some balance impact than a balance change though.
Do nerf Zac... Of course his play/win/ban rate will rise if other juglers are nerf. Duh
Wind Whistler1 votesGut Zac. He's toxic.
zlumpy1 votesPlease just don't Rek' Sai him. Thats all I ask if you do end up nerfing Zac.
Astôlfo6 votesI dunno, are you going to learn to play against him instead of whining anytime soon?
GULAG 4 U5 votesMunchcrunchlunch always bitches. He never actually tries to get better, he's always QQing. Always.
Not xPeke2 votesCould you sound any more condescending?
You don't need to "learn to play against him" to realise he's a very oppressive champion and objectively does too much damage (for example) considering how tanky he can get.
How about you open your eyes and stop being blinded by the way you see things, and leave open the possibility that a "whiner" can be right every once in a while. Don't give the usual "git gud" comment.
Zac does much more than you would expect from a tanky jungler, he's in a great spot right now. And he's also finally being picked up again in the LCS, which in turn has caused his play rate to increase because of the "played in LCS, must be good" mentatility. He's always been a little over the edge. With a few nerfs to his counters and LCS visibility, Zac is gaining popularity and people are realising he's quite strong.
I don't think it's just "whining" at all. But I guess it's easier to bash someone for pointing out the truth than it is to change your own point of view. Whatever.
Astôlfo3 votesI mean, you're incorrect, but sure whatever.
Not xPeke2 votesThanks for proving my point :)
Astôlfo3 votesYou have no point bud. Also it's cute when you don't even understand the definitions of the words you use.
Not xPeke2 votesThat's why you have yet to come with any argument to me or the person you initially replied to without sounding like a cocky condescending person? Also downvoting every single post, even the ones not addressed to you, because I'm disagreeing with you? What a great show of maturity. Too funny.
Yeah, good point that you made mate.
Hmmm, care to elaborate? I know you're American but you should understand proper english.
Astôlfo3 votesBecause you've continually dismissed everyone else's attempts at explaining it to something like you? And you just prance on and on, rambling about how it's supposedly some sort of obvious objective fact and that it's something they should just "admit"???
But hey I guess it's easier to just cry and whine and QQ instead of learning how to play against a champion, eh? :)
You're honestly hilarious. Thanks! :)
Also, I'm not American by blood. I'm fully Korean by blood, but just born in the US because parents wanted me to have an American citizenship. That being said, my English is near perfectly fluent and a lot better than most Caucasian, American-blooded people my age.
Assuming you're American judging from what you said, I thought you would understand the concept of irony/hypocrisy, but apparently you don't. Oh well.
Not xPeke2 voteslmao, what are you even talking about? How about simply replying to my point of view on the champion, instead of taking stuff personally and causing an argument with your passive aggressive remarks?
Just go back to downvoting every single post in this thread and go stalk my other posts again, I don't care.
You can't be reasoned with.
And I have dismissed nothing. I've engaged in a healthy debate respecting the other person's point of view, which you do not.
I said my piece, they said theirs. I replied to what they said stating why I believe my point still stands, or whatever you want to call it.
It's funny how you call others whiners and say they cry, when it's exactly what you are doing right now. Crying because you can't convince someone that your opinion is the correct one.
You keep saying "learn to play against a champ". I don't need to. I don't have a problem against Zac. I don't ban him every game.
I simply stated what I believe when judging Zac's power.
Please open your mind a little and don't be so arrogant as to think only you and what you believe matters. Thank you.
Astôlfo3 votesIs your memory so bad you fail to remember replying to anyone else about Zac beyond me?
I think you need to actually learn debating if you consider your pitiful whining and dismissal of other people's explanations as "healthy debate". I heard online classes are all the rage, why not give it a spin?
Mmk. The irony is hilarious.
If you knew how to play against Zac, you wouldn't be crying so hard/thinking he's such a problem. But eh, that's none of my business. :^)
Once again, the irony is hilarious.
Not xPeke2 votesOnce again, please read up the actual definition of irony. Please, you're making my eyes bleed.
As for you questioning my memory, maybe I should question your reading skills. "I said my piece, they said theirs". Obviously referring to someone else other than yourself, or are you too self-centred to see that?
You judge the way I discuss things but can you step back for a second and look at your replies?
None of your replies to me even touched Zac's subject other than you denying anything is wrong with him. They were personal, passive aggressive attacks aimed at me.
So don't expect me to take your definition of a "healthy debate" seriously. You really lack in that department.
Again.. no one is crying or saying he's "such a problem". I simply believe he is a bit over the top currently. But keep twisting the reality to better suit your "point", if you can even call it such.
Astôlfo3 votesSigh... you continually fail to understand basic English or remember what you said to other people. Why do I even bother with something that understands nothing, o world?
And if you actually knew anything on the matter, you'd think before speaking. Yes, Zac is strong and has been for a while. That doesn't mean over the top. The reason he's more prominent is because his counters got nerfed. He himself is fine. Pro-play stage nerfs to shift the rotation of dominance is common. Give it a while and it'll swap again by nerfing/buffing various matchups for every jungler relevant to LCS.
Not xPeke2 votesInstead of beating around the bush say what you mean then. I don't have time to waste with you trolling about in the forums.
Stop with the "you don't remember what you said". You either don't have anything to actually say or just say it. What exactly was it that I forgot? I spoke about Zac with one other person other than you on this thread. He replied giving his opinion to which I countered with how I see his logic to be wrong. Which is how debates work. The discussion with you on the other hand, was me simply stating why I think Zac is over the top, and you refusing to even address the champion itself until 4-5 comments after that.
You're too condescending to even attempt to reason with, guess I'll act like this as well.
I guess your trolling is working. Fair play, you got me.
Finally, you actually addressed the only thing I wanted to talk about, your opinion on Zac. Praise the lord we did it.
Go back to my first comment. It specifically says "little over the edge". I'm not describing Zac the way you are trying to make it seem. I'm not crying for him to get gutted or saying "he's op can't win against him RITO PLS NURF HERP DERP".
So again, I really don't understand your tone and attitude towards me.
Is it because I called you out in the first comment on being condescending and rude? Cause you were I'm sorry. You gave the usual "git gud" line instead of attempting to understand the other person's point of view.
Astôlfo1 votesA debate isn't just saying that what you're saying is objectively right when it isn't even something that can be spoken of objectively in the first place. Nor is it telling the other person to simply "admit" that they're wrong and you're right. Again, you really should go and learn how a debate works.
I did notice your comment that mentioned him being a "little over the edge". Amusingly enough, just about every other comment regarding him that you've made is worded in a way that makes him seem far stronger than he is when it's inaccurate in the first place.
I feel as if we need to backtrack and lay down the base points before we continue, because I feel like we're on the wrong pages as to what each other thinks at the moment.
Gamer Girl Paige5 votesWhy is he op again?
Rivuo1 votes[{quoted}](name=Gamer Girl Paige,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VY78LxgV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-30T21:21:56.039+0000)
Why is he op again?
Pretty much everything you could want in a tank jungler plus more
Gamer Girl Paige6 votesPretty much everything you could want in a tank jungler plus more
weird I don't see him going 20-0 every other game.
zlumpy6 votesBecause he actually does his job I geuss. I mean how dare a tank jungler do that!
Not xPeke3 votesbecause he does much more than just tank or engage. He decimates a squishy with little to no AP.
zlumpy5 votesTbf he only does that to mostly immobile squishies. Mobile squishies easily dodge his engage if they pay attention. Then if he misses his E he loses a ton of presence in that particular fight.
Plus if we are talking immobile squishes problems...well they die to almost everything. Thats more of a problem with them than it is a problem of them vs Zac.
Not xPeke3 votesJust admit it, he's very very oppressive. He deserves a nerf.
He literally does everything. Tank, passive rebirth, strong damage, sustain, hard engage + long distance engage, good ganker, disrupter, stays healthy while clearing jungle, etc. I could probably go on.
I never like the argument "if he misses <blank> he's useless/loses presence, etc". That can be said for most champions in the game. It's a pointless argument to make.
Fact is, if he DOESN'T miss it it's pretty much over.
zlumpy4 votesIf he doesn't miss thats on the target not the Zac player.
Rebirth has such a long cooldown that you have to be smart about using it. He can he knocked out the air by a ton of stuff. His damage isnt anywhere near as bad as people make it sound like.
No I don't think Zac is oppressive at all. He is literally countered by paying attention and learning how to move against him. Try running towards where he just leaped from turns out if he goes for a max range leap he wont be anywhere near you.
If in a team fight he lands his stuff, well thats his job. If you nerf that he will just end up like Rek'sai and be almost worthless for a massive majority of the player base.
Where he is at now is perfect imo. He does a handful of things amazingly well and struggles with others. I swear its like people think ue has no weakness when he very much does.
Not xPeke2 votesYou lost me at "his damage isn't anywhere near as bad".
It's pretty high damage CONSIDERING HOW TANKY HE IS. There's a difference. Especially all through the early and mid game. The simple fact that if he lands his jump followed by his ultimate will pretty much decimate the enemy ADC should tell you something considering he's meant to be a tank. Having the hard engage is good enough, he doesn't need the damage.
Again.. stating that a champion is only effective if he lands his spells can be said about almost anyone! It's a moot point to make. Also, if you believe his spell is hard to land, it doesn't matter if he has lower damage does it? What matters is when he lands it.. what does he do at the moment then? A lot of damage.
You keep making arguments that can be said about ANY champion. So with your point of view every single champion in league is perfectly balanced? Because technically every single champion has a weakness, just like you say Zac does.
zlumpy1 votesThats the rub though. It is that easy to say his damage specifically is easy to avoid. It is all short range and can be dodged. Even something as simple as a flash can negate a huge chunk of his damage and firce him to back off early.
As far as late game his damage is hard to avoid but it should be imo. He forces a faster paced gameplay and can still easily be stopped from performing well by anyone landing a CC on him while he is flying through the air. I mean even trundle pillar can stop him ffs.
If you haven't played him you should try it. You will see just how hard people looking for him and certain matchups counter him. Its to the point where someone like Veigar can straight hard counter him late game making him either a defensive option for his team or be forced to WALK into the enemy team to attempt to engage.
Not xPeke1 votesthat can be said about any champion.. like I've already said before.
Monjula1 votes[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VY78LxgV,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-10-01T00:23:20.435+0000)
because he does much more than just tank or engage. He decimates a squishy with little to no AP.
If I may... have you played Zac? Have you tried to delete squishies when there's an enemy Janna? Have you tried building full tank, only to be decimated by Veigar?
Zac is mediocre at best. I love the goo guy, but if he misses his engage, he's screwed. Got some grievous wounds on your team? He's screwed. Getting ganked early? Anything before 5 is your fault for being over extended. His gank is slow to channel, and is able to be avoided if you're paying attention. Ever played as Zac, with the enemy being a strong early game type, like Shaco? Zac's early game is atrocious, and he gets stomped hard.
Trying to slow down a fed Lucian with Zac? If he sees your shadow, you're dead.
1v1 against someone with more mobility? Only if you're considerably ahead or you're building damage...
Catastrop1 votesHe was picked in the LCS, and so the sheep followed and realized that yes, Zac is actually strong.
Strong Support4 votesHe is strong but not overpowered. You need to ward specifically for him, same as junglers like Reksai and Evelyn. The tri bushes and wraith camps are his most likely gank locations
GULAG 4 U4 votesZac is good because they nerfed the other top tiers into the garbage can.
Rivuo1 votesZac has a 45% ban rate high play rate and high winrate?
Better nerf shen
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesoh wait am early let me think of a hoke
Riot balance team
Brain Errör 4044 votesYou're the hoke.
GuaigaWaruiDesu1 votesZac has a 45% ban rate high play rate and high winrate?
Better nerf shen
Ikr.
ExecutorDill1 votesZac has a 45% ban rate high play rate and high winrate?
Better nerf shen
Lmfao... I luv this comment! xD
SwiftKitten881 votesi agree needs a nerf, he is just too versatile. you literally CANNOT ward enough to see him coming from every direction he can come from. unless you HAVE vision on the zac somewhere else you just cant really do anything because the constant threat he provides. he basically functions as a stealth jungler like 
or
, there arnt really ANY champ that can really counter him very well that are meta other than pretty much
who is also getting nerfed..
Anags1 votesit's funny that VI has almost the same exact winrate and playrate right now but never really gets banned. Both of them are fine right now imo.
People just lose to a pick a couple times, freak out and cry for nerfs instead of realizing they or their team either had a bad comp or just played poorly. Zac is a strong pick and I don't know why that is bad. He isn't 55% winrate or anything crazy. His engage has counterplay if people know what to do.
I mean god forbid we see a different jungler that is a strong pick. If they nerf Zac you won't see him and then you will just be bitching about whoever beats you next. Probably VI lol. I truly hope Riot doesn't listen to these garbage nerf this champ posts.
I swear people don't realize that if you lose to a good jungler/premade he/they probably could have beat you with any number of champs. Sometimes you just get outplayed. Accept it and learn from it.
Fill To Win1 votesLol this is just a "meta" issue with people learning to play champs and learning to play against champs. You'll still find games in which Zac is picked with people raging about what a "terrible" and "useless" champion he is