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The problem is Aphelios's passive.

Elite4Runner··15 votes·8,697 views

Aphelios gets too many free stats from his passive. They cause him to scale too hard and too fast, and he doesn't need to sacrifice anything for them.

He doesn't have the highest Base AD or Attack speed, but in combination with his passive, there are few marksmen that surpass him without any modified basic attack mechanics or reduced damage.

By level 18 he is guaranteed +24 AD, +36% Attack Speed, AND +18% without any items, runes, or other buffs.

I think the "AND" is really the issue here.

Change his passive so they scale slightly lower and he can invest into each up to 9 times (yes, I know he only has 18 levels)

This means he has 3 options

  • Maximize 2 of the 3 stats and get 0 benefit of the 3rd
  • Maximize 1 of the 3 stats and get partial benefit of the other 2
  • Maximize 0 of the 3 but get partial benefit from all 3

Instead of Attack Damage 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20 / 24 Attack Speed 6 / 12 / 18 / 24 / 30 / 36% Bonus Armor Penetration 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15 / 18%

He gets Attack Damage 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 16 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 27 Attack Speed 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45% Bonus Armor Penetration 2.5 / 5 / 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 / 15 / 17.5 / 20 / 22.5

25 Comments

Elite4Runner10 votes

Downvoted before anyone has even had time to read my post lol

Z3SIeeper3 votes

Happens to every post. There's some lurkers/bots here that instantly downvote new posts no matter the context.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

While I get where you're coming from with this, you're kinda missing out on a point of Aphelios. Those stats are there because he doesn't have abilities to level up, so his damage comes only from his AD and stats. He only has Ratios to work with, he doesn't gain more damage from his Q's or R with levels so instead of having leveling base damages, he gains stats.

Elite4Runner6 votes

... but he does get base ratios, ...

Everything scales with his level. He doesn't need to put points into them.

Yes, his stats are part of that, .. and I'm still offering stats.

I'm pointing out that the accumulation of level growth and the bonus stats he gets from leveling gives him a lot of raw power that isn't kept in check by anything.

Look at the other ranged with more base AD growth Graves Urgot Rakan very low range, .. practically melee champions Nidalee Jayce actually are melee champions half of the time Graves Jhin ammunition system, lowered attack speed, and modified damage calculation Draven ... busted bullshit champion, .. but at least he still has a mini game he has to put up with every time he basic attacks.

Durzaka3 votes

As already mentioned, he DOES scale with levels on his abilities.

His abilities arent the same from level 2 to 18. They get upgraded passively at levesl 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9 for his Q and 6, 11, 16 for his R. Pretty standard stuff.

The stats from his passive are literally there because they are a passive. They just happen to be a much more tangible form of power for players to latch onto compared to something like Darius' Bleed, or even Draven's stacking turn in.

Kazekiba2 votes

Twitch gets 36 True damage per second but 18% bonus armor pen is suddenly too strong for a passive.

K. Meanwhile Mordekaiser exists, Darius gets 230 AD from his passive and 25% total armor penetration on his E.

Elite4Runner22 votes

Twitch has to stack basic attacks or an ability on a single target to get that 30 (not 36) true damage, ... and that isn't even until level SEVENTEEN

Kazekiba2 votes

Point is that passives typically exist to give Champions free stats and at 18 it can look like a lot... but you almost never reach 18 anyway and armor pen has been given to previous champions for level up points before.

Zed got extra bonus AD on his W, I think Neeko and Twisted Fate have aspd on E for ranking it up, etc. Aphelios has no E slot and this is made up for by having the armor pen rank ups; AD and Aspd can be considered level scaling base stats, similar to how Sion has abysmal Health growth for a bruiser/tank because his W let's him stack it more and how Thresh/Senna dont have armor/AD growth respectively, at all.

I disagree its overloaded or that hes giving up nothing for it, since he has approx half a normal champions kit. He could have an E ability. He could have W ranks. He could get more, but his Q covers everything already and the passive stat ranks covers the rest. Again, maybe he's overtuned, and I'm sure hes getting nerfed next patch and already got hotfix nerfs on R and Infernum.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Point is that passives typically exist to give Champions free stats and at 18 it can look like a lot... but you almost never reach 18 anyway and armor pen has been given to previous champions for level up points before.

30 true damage per second isn't a lot, though.

Literally do 1000/30. You think a fight can consist of 30 seconds of non-stop Twitch true damage for it to amount to anything? This example is trash.

Rocnation981 votes

{quoted}

Twitch has to stack basic attacks or an ability on a single target to get that 30 (not 36) true damage, ... and that isn't even until level SEVENTEEN

My man really just complained about 36 true damage... Minion auto attacks do more damage than that.

LordGeovanni1 votes

That part isnt even bad with the massive attack speed steroid he gets and the fact that it ticks more than once persecond instead of just on that 1 second mark it ramps up much faster than the 36 or 30 true damage per second would suggest. Aka if it ticked once per second it would tick of the first application and not take into account new applications until the whole second is over thus by time that second is over you up to 4/5 stacks. but instead it would tick immediately on 1 then another time on 3 stacks and another time of 4 stacks because dots update and apply damage about every 1/3rd second. along with the fact that twitch build crit that seems to cover everything since armor is balanced to not be oppressive versus regular ad and crit effectively gives you a 2.5 multiplier on your ad for autos. Twitch's true damage is mostly for early game to deny his enemies a way to counterbuild him as he gets crit which again is a multiple and blade of the ruined king for hp stack shredding and sustain which is effective tankyness.

Elite4Runner10 votes

And since you added to your comment, I'll just double reply to yours.

Melee champions generally do get more Base AD because they don't have as much safety provided by range. If they get close enough to you to hit you, it should hurt.

Also, if you notice, I suggested that all of his stats can scale higher than his current passive. I don't have a problem with him having 18% Bonus Armor Penetration. I think he should even get up to 22.5% BAP, .. but to do so, he should lose something. He either gets all of his bonus AD or AS, but none of the other, or he gets some of each.

Honestly, 18 AD / 30% AS / 15% BAP (6/6/6) still isn't a bad combination.

FSRER3 votes

{quoted}

Twitch gets 36 True damage per second but 18% bonus armor pen is suddenly too strong for a passive.

K. Meanwhile Mordekaiser exists, Darius gets 230 AD from his passive and 25% total armor penetration on his E.

Yeah! Why should a melee champion have bonus armor pen while a ranged champion with extreme range, a flamethrower, a root and 2.50 attack speed weapon should not! Totally unfair!

G0blinSlay3r2 votes

Apple OS has always been about bad hardware. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

The Swift Yordle2 votes

No Aphelios is fine. Play him learn his guns and rotations and R interactions then you will know how to lane vs him as a non-counter.

If you don't want to do this play a hard counter ... like Ashe, Varus, Caitlyn, Tristana, Draven.

He really isn't broken since his nerf.

People only think he is broken because they don't understand him, and try to engage without looking at his guns.

LET THIS BE KNOWN HE IS JUST A ADC SO WASTING 2 R or HARD CC HE IS ONE SHOTTED JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Someone that needs a nerf right now is Caitlyn she controls the bot lane right now.

Kadexe2 votes

I view the free stats as compensation for having no W or E abilities. And, it's a lot simpler than having a system for leveling up his 5 different abilities and 5 passives.

Really though there's nothing wrong with free stats, most ADCs have them in some way. Count how many abilities there are that give marksmen AD, AS, on-hit damage, etc.

Durzaka1 votes

In a world were a passive like Mordes exists, I dont think that Aphelio's stats as a passive are a problem.

Elite4Runner3 votes

You're justifying a broken champion with another broken champion? .. That's a good way to never solve problems.

Or, we could nerf Morde too? ... but that's a different subject

Durzaka1 votes

I could name a variety of other champions with very very strong passives that are way better than just the free stats Aphelios gets, Morde was just the easiest example off the top of my head because I had just played as him.

Greenlightx1 votes

he needs to be aggressively gutted, what you wrote is actually a buff

EATARI1 votes

Not a single champion in LOL gets “free stats”. Every single part of a champion is considered a part of their power budget. To claim that Aphelios gets free stats is like complaining that Mundo gets 40-200 “free” attack damage from his E. Or to take it one step further, Taric gets a “free” 55 attack damage from base stats.

You can argue that a champion’s stats are too great and overinflate their power budget, but there is no such thing as free stats.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Interesting example.

Mundo gains 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 Bonus AD AS AN ACTIVE ABILITY FOR 5 SECONDS

His bonus AD is increased by 0 - 100% based on his missing health

He has a small window in which he gains those stats, AND he has to be missing health to increase it.

Aphelios ALWAYS HAS THESE STATS, and all 3 of them enhance the effectiveness of the others.

And yes, he should be allowed to have this. I accept that this is included in his power budget. As you said, it is too much, and that was my point. I would think that was clear in the way that I suggested things be changed.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I don't know if I overlooked the Taric point or if you added it afterward.

I'm actually struggling to see where you get his free 55 damage from.

His passive and E scale with bonus armor, .. so base stats aren't factored in.

His W does give him bonus armor based on his total armor, but even if we look at his stats at level 18 he has 97.8 base armor. 20% of 97.8 is 19.56 bonus armor.

His passive scales with 15% of that, .. which is 3 damage.. 3 + 93 base stats by level on his passive is 96 damage on two basic attacks within 4 seconds after he uses an ability, so in this case only after he has used his W within the previous 2.5 seconds

His E only scales with 50% bonus armor, so that's .. 10 damage from base stats, ... and again, that only works if he had just used his W, and E has a 1.25 second delay.

I don't think you need to stretch your imagination to guess if people would rather deal with a Taric that deals an extra 96 damage on hit, or an Aphelios with 24 bonus AD, 36% attack speed, and 18% bonus armor penetration. .... At least the Taric has to get to you before he can start wailing on you.

EATARI1 votes

The point was there before. I was simply taking the analogy further by calling the base damage every champion gets at level 1 “free stats”. Taric as the example has 55 base AD.

Besides, my argument is concerning more the perspective of argumentation than the conclusion. I agree that Aphelios is overtuned right now, but his passive isn’t necessarily the source of the issue, and by claiming that free stats are inherently bad, it leads to less varied designs and more potential snowballing.

Using Aphelios as a well suited example, let us suppose that we want to go about nerfing him. Initially, the most obvious values we can adjust to balance him would be his ability scalings or his passive level stats. If we choose to nerf his passive stats without hitting his ability scalings, then he’ll be more reliant on gold and items to succeed. This would consequently worsen his winrate drastically for more aggressive play styles that earn less CS, often found in lower ranks. He’d eventually be left in a state where he’s incredibly weak unless ahead, at which point he could melt through anyone. From my perspective, few people appreciate the snowball games as is and this would only worsen the problem. However, if Aphelios instead receives nerfs to his ability ratios, he’l become less snowbally.

TLDR; “Free stats” is a ineffective method of analyzing champion balance. Aphelios needs nerfs to his ratios, not his passive, or else he’ll only become more snowbally.

Elite4Runner1 votes

But marksmen are generally designed to be item reliant... That's the whole reason they are played in the bottom lane with a support. They don't need as much experience, but they need utility and protection while they farm gold for items. His winrate can stand to be impacted. He currently has over a 50% winrate, which is pretty dumb considering Riot said he has the highest skill curve of any champion ever released .. and he hasn't even been out for a month yet.

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