So I just got out of a game where someone build thornmail with less than 2k health so relatively into the early game. I asked him why he didnt get something like Randuins and he said he prefered thornmail. I was under the impression you don't build thornmail until you have the health to allow it to do significant damage. Should you ever build thornmail first?
Sirsir2 votesWas he vs Fiora? Was Trundle doing work?
Its not terrible early game, before enemies have a chance to buy Last Whisper or whatever. Its not the best option in most cases, but it can be.
Swollwonder1 votesXin. To me it just didnt make since because the randuins was a slow reduction for the knock up, heal, and an active slow to stop him chasing you. Vs thornmail he could partially heal through.
67chrome1 votesXin. To me it just didnt make since because the randuins was a slow reduction for the knock up, heal, and an active slow to stop him chasing you. Vs thornmail he could partially heal through.
With thornmail first, there's no reason Xin would want to chase you.
Thornmail reflects damage before it's mitigated by armor. Which is why you rush it if you ever build it.
30% damage reflection is a brutal 60% of the damage you ultimately take reflected back when you've got over 50% damage reduction.
Some in-built heal or life steal isn't going to come anywhere close to 60% life steal early, you need to be hard in the paint AP Xin to get close to that. Xin is never healing through Thornmail. He will always be able to heal through Omen.
That said - Thornmail sucks in team-fights, Omen is awesome. Thornmail is more something you get to deal with backdoor/split-push shenanigans in top-lane from champions like Trynd, Rengar, Xin, and Yi that are heavily AA reliant.
Swollwonder1 votesI find that extremely hard to believe as xin completely destroyed this person. Frankly it didnt work and I still do not see a reason to rush thornmail
BeatzBoyFTW2 votesNever rush Thornmail build as your first buy, unless you're 
Reikken2 votesranduin's gives you more defense, since health is the best defensive stat early on when you don't have much health from levels yet, but thornmail is better for duels if your opponent is autoattack based
FantasySniper2 votesAuto-attack dependent opponents can get really messed up if they try dueling someone using Thornmail. If I'm not mistaken, it also affects creeps.
If they could afford to rush Thornmail that early, I'd say that it was a good decision so long as their opponent was going to be actually hurt by it.
A Warden's Mail + Damage item is usually preferable if they aren't full tank, though.
Stonington2 votesIt's not bad. I'd prefer Frozen Heart first, but Thorn does good work.
redniwediS1 votesIt depends on whether you're looking at Thornmail as a defensive item or an offensive item. If it's defensive you want health, otherwise you're not getting your money's worth out of that armor. If it's offensive it's still a defensive item, however it's position in your build order is likely earlier for additional trading potential with an AD opponent. I often get it before big health items just for that early additional magic damage, and the same goes for Sunfire.
Trídent1 votesI usually build it when an AD champion gets fed
Sir ArmaMalum1 votesYour logic is sound, however there are a few instances where rushing a thornmail would be an ok (not great, but ok) way to go. Thornmail, by default is a very non-interactive item, meaning it's very presence makes trading with said thornmail'd person a negative. It's kind of like a Tank version of Hydra. If you're against an auto attack heavy champion that is very feast/famine (a.k.a. depends on kills in-lane to function, so Fiora for example) then getting a thornamil can be an effective way to force them to roam. The lack of health is made up for the fact that between thornmail's damage and absurd amount of armor the trades they make will always end negatively and you can push to your heart's content.
aZombie481 votesPerhaps I'm just misreading your post, but it sounds like you think thornmail does damage based on how much health you have. It reflects a percentage of the physical damage you take from on hit effects and auto attacks before any form of damage reduction is applied. If someone is autoing you for 100 damage, thornmail will reflect 30 damage back, whether you have 50 health or 5000.
How armor works is that for every one point of armor you have, it take 1% of your max health more physical damage to kill you. So if you have 2000 max hp, the 100 armor on thornmail will mean that it'll take 4000 physical damage to kill you assuming you have no other armor at all. You don't usually rush something like thornmail, because at early levels you don't have a ton of health to actually make that 100 armor as effective as, say, getting the armor and hp of Randuin's. (plus the hp on Randuin's helps with magic and true damage, which thornmail has no effect on).
But to answer your question, I probably wouldn't get it first. But if you see an enemy who uses a lot of auto attacks or on hit effects, think Fiora or Trundle or the like, and they are looking like a threat, it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to get one earlier rather than later though.
Swollwonder1 votesNot misreading but misunderstanding. You say thornmail reflects thirty percent of physical damage dealt. Well lets say you duel someone with autos and you have 1500 health along with your damage dealing opponent who also has 1500 health. Now because you're a dirty feeder you think you can fight this damage dealing champ with your thornmail, cause you're all fancy like, strutting your stuff. You die. Now disregarding auto attacks and looking at how much damage your thornmail did how much damage did you do? A wopping 450. not even a third of your opponents health. And considering you're building armor your autos are doing even less than your opponents meaning you've done less damage to them during the trade so maybe another 500 damage, leaving your opponent with an easy breathing 550 health to spare. Not exactly a close trade.
Now if it was later game and your damage dealing opponent has built much in health but you have 4k health and thornmail...well they're going to be hurting a lot more
This is what I mean by getting more health before thornmail
Renaille1 votesHe was a baddie. Thornmail rush is horrible.
67chrome1 votesI was under the impression you don't build thornmail until you have the health to allow it to do significant damage. Should you ever build thornmail first?
//////////////////////////// If you're ever building Thornmail, build it first. ////////////////////////////\
From my Dominion/Treelines experiance: Thornmail is pure cancer as a first major purchase.
It's pretty tame as a 3rd major purchase regardless of the circumstances, and kind of meh in Abyss.
Increasing your defense via damage reduction isn't really that different from HP as to the high HP value comment.
While HP is usually a more cost-effective stat early, the cost-effective difference is pretty negligible when you're facing off against a pure physical or pure magical champion in regards to countering them with the appropriate stat.
HP comes more into play when you're trying to do things vs. mixed damage or against an entire team.
100 armor is x2 EHP.
On top of the base ~30 armor at level 6, you need ~130 armor to double your HP. You need ~1000 HP to double your EHP at level 6, and the highest HP item is the 2500 Warmogs, where the 2100 Thornmail is 100 armor.
In short - Riot doesn't punish champions for attempting to straight counter-build their opponents without getting HP first.
For Thornmail in particular:
100 armor from Thornmail effectively doubles your HP against physical damage.
the 30% damage reflection applies Prior to any damage mitigation. So with 50% damage reduction, you'll effectivly deal 60% of how much damage an opponent actually deals to you with Thornmail.
And if they just built a damage item that increases their HP by 0%, and you have twice their effective HP, you can litterally AFK kill them. with a first purchase.
The counters to Thornmail are life steal along with enough %armor penetration to bring the reflected damage you need to cover with life steal to a manageable level, as well as enough MR to reduce the reflected damage to a manageable level. Or just a 5v5 fight where phys auto-attackers can choose to not target you and smack someone else, leaving the ability-relaint champions to deal with you.
Late-game any AD champion worth their salt is going to have a decent chunk of life steal and armor penetration, and possibly sources of MR from something. Several supports offer sudo MR or actual MR buffs, melee champions get a decent chunk of MR from bases, and generally Thornmail late will reflect, like, 10% of an opponent's actual damage back to them after life steal.
It will effectively prevent them from life-stealing Off of you, which is a small victory, but it won't do much beyond that late-game. And that's only if auto-attackers focus you, which is more the reason Omen and Sunfire are purchased frequently - nobody has to focus you to utalize the passives of those items.
Thornmail's more of a duelist-tank item.
TLDR: thornmail late-game stops lifesteal from doing things. If auto-attackers focus you. thornmail early-game nets AFK kills.
If you want Thornmail, you want it early.
Ship 0F Ducks1 votes
AMYS GRAVE1 votesThornmail first item is ok if it is immediately followed up by the health component of the next item you plan on buying. It's especially good if you're rammus.