Vayne needs a nerf

Swollwonder··121 votes·32,022 views

Vayne, in her current state, cannot be allowed to exist. You can't itemize against her. If the idea is "build thornmail, frozen heart, and maybe randuins" to itemize against vayne that's ridiculous.

Can you imagine if there was any other champion you wouldn't be MORE than fine if you built even TWO items against their damage let alone THREE (four if you count item 3047 ). In addition, building any health to counter whatever burst mid is pretty much negated once vayne gets off three auto attacks. How are tanks even supposed to remotely itemize against her? Is this considered balanced?

281 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir51 votes

Vayne, in her current state, cannot be allowed to exist. You can't itemize against her. If the idea is "build thornmail, frozen heart, and maybe randuins" to itemize against vayne that's ridiculous.

How are tanks even supposed to remotely itemize against her? Is this considered balanced?

I'm not going to necessarily argue that Vayne isn't strong right now, but her current state isn't one that has been changed too dramatically in the past couple of years. If anything, it seems like just Vayne being the same Vayne we've known her to be all along.

To the best of my knowledge, Vayne wasn't seen as such a power pick even just a few months ago. As far as itemizing against her goes, you probably know that you have the same options against her as you do any other basic attacker, but I guess Silver Bolts just makes all your itemization choices feel bad? Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

All that said, I'm not really sure what the appropriate measure, if any, to take on Vayne is.

MarkedOfKane2 votes

{quoted}

I'm not going to necessarily argue that Vayne isn't strong right now, but her current state isn't one that has been changed too dramatically in the past couple of years. If anything, it seems like just Vayne being the same Vayne we've known her to be all along.

To the best of my knowledge, Vayne wasn't seen as such a power pick even just a few months ago. As far as itemizing against her goes, you probably know that you have the same options against her as you do any other basic attacker, but I guess Silver Bolts just makes all your itemization choices feel bad? Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

All that said, I'm not really sure what the appropriate measure, if any, to take on Vayne is.

I think the problem is the true damage. What if it was like magic damage or something? Or keep the true damage but make it current health, so she can still chunk but she doesn't completely melt you.

You cant really build defensively against her. She does true damage and it is percent health.

50West3 votes

{quoted}

I think the problem is the true damage. What if it was like magic damage or something? Or keep the true damage but make it current health, so she can still chunk but she doesn't completely melt you.

You cant really build defensively against her. She does true damage and it is percent health.

So build Armor and not Health. That's like saying "How do you counter True Damage?" You build Health. How do you counter an ability that deals more damage based on how much health you have? For starters I wouldn't build health!

There were cries for Vayne buffs no more than a month ago. It just goes to show that people have no idea what is actually going on in this game. There are multiple ADC's that have better win rates than her. Why don't people complain about them?

If something is picked that isn't FOTM they need buffed and if they become FOTM they need nerfed. Typical GD.

SoMNia2 votes

{quoted}

She does true damage and it is percent health.

{quoted}

So build Armor and not Health. That's like saying "How do you counter True Damage?" You build Health. How do you counter an ability that deals more damage based on how much health you have? For starters I wouldn't build health!

LOL. Read that again.

Meªt11 votes

You have an ability that does 8% max health TRUE damage every few seconds. Considering that she usually rushes BotrK, which gives an 8% current health phys damage, and an active that does an extra 10% max health damage

If she get bust out 3 autos in 2 seconds, those two seconds will do 8% max health (+ 30/40 true damage), 8% current health with each hit, and 10% max health with blade passive, along with the ACTUAL damage from her AD, not to mention an additional 30% with her tumble with an auto attack.

idk IMO i think that's a bit too powerful to have in the early-mid game.

KayleeT10 votes

{quoted}

You have an ability that does 8% max health TRUE damage every few seconds. Considering that she usually rushes BotrK, which gives an 8% current health phys damage, and an active that does an extra 10% max health damage

If she get bust out 3 autos in 2 seconds, those two seconds will do 8% max health (+ 30/40 true damage), 8% current health with each hit, and 10% max health with blade passive, along with the ACTUAL damage from her AD, not to mention an additional 30% with her tumble with an auto attack.

idk IMO i think that's a bit too powerful to have in the early-mid game.

Botrk? Early game? Rofl

Edit: Implying Vayne is anything other than garbage early game makes it seems you've never played her before

Hawkefire12 votes

Actually Vayne's earlygame is pretty close to being on par with other standard ADCs. Sure she is no lane bully like Draven, and definitely doesn't possess that much potency, but it certainly isn't bad either. It is just average when you take all things into consideration.

Durzaka25 votes

Vayne has been relatively unchanged for the last year.

The thing is, rewind a year and we had super lane bullies like Graves, or Lucian in lane. And they dumpstered all over Vayne.

Over the course of the last year, just about every ADC has been nerfed, including all of Vayne's hardest counters, bringing her to the forefront.

Finn Teh Human2 votes

I think it's that people have come to see how powerful a good Vayne is. But then again when you get a Doubelift wannabe....gg...

Durzaka7 votes

Vayne has been around for 4 freaking years.

People arent just now realizing her potential.

It is the circle of nerfs that lead to he being a strong pick. And it happens to a lot of champions. Their lane counters are in the meta, so they are bad. Then those counters get too strong so they are nerfed, making the champion who was being countered uncounterable (so to speak).

Finn Teh Human2 votes

You have to be a good Vayne tho in order to shine. Honestly I'd just buff other ADC's a bit.

mgprx4DXfG3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Finn Teh Human,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KfUxrYmE,comment-id=0023000b000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-12T23:41:34.980+0000)

You have to be a good Vayne tho in order to shine. Honestly I'd just buff other ADC's a bit.

Giving back Graves, Lucian, Corki, Varus, and Miss Fortune their bullying capability will easily force Vayne back into her little pit of 'is there no bully + no cc = vayne'

Max Þayne2 votes

Yeah, Durzaka has a good point. Vayne's been around for awhile, and over the more recent years her kit has barely changed. Only recently has mention of her being a problem began, which seems to have more to do with the meta and changes to other ADCs than it does with Vayne and her kit itself.

Champion Skin6 votes

Actually Silver bolts deal more % damage to squishy then tanks because it also deals flat damage and the flat damage is a bigger % of a squishy HP than a tanks HP (and the % damage is always the same percentage of a targets max hp)

TheVishual7 votes

{quoted}

I'm not going to necessarily argue that Vayne isn't strong right now, but her current state isn't one that has been changed too dramatically in the past couple of years. If anything, it seems like just Vayne being the same Vayne we've known her to be all along.

To the best of my knowledge, Vayne wasn't seen as such a power pick even just a few months ago. As far as itemizing against her goes, you probably know that you have the same options against her as you do any other basic attacker, but I guess Silver Bolts just makes all your itemization choices feel bad? Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

All that said, I'm not really sure what the appropriate measure, if any, to take on Vayne is.

The issue is that vayne has powercreeped because of the nerf of ADC lane bullies like Draven, Lucian, Graves, and Caitlyn. This has made it very easy for Vayne to reach her hyper carry status which was much harder in the past.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

The flat true damage portion of Silver Bolts does too much to squishies for a tankbuster.

Sire Hippington3 votes

The problem that is that she is rather limited in what she does, it all boils down to 'get in 550 range and right-click the shit out of them' Since reaching and staying in 550 range is rather delicate for a squishy, she has some tools to reach that range and stay where without instantly getting delteted. The problem with that is that she is really, really bad if her tools aren't sufficent in a given situation to stay alive in 550range, as she now has to choose between not doing anything or straight up dieing... However, if her tools are sufficient, she feels like the untouchable queen of death. This leads to her fealing opressing whenever she does work, even though she isn't generally OP as there are just enough scenarios in which she doesn't work. However, people won't remember the games in which the enemie vayne did 2 AAs in the entier teamfight cause she was to afraid of dieing, or the games in which she tumbled in, did 1 AA and instandly blew up afterwards(unless that vayne is on your own team ofc) But people Remember games in which there team probably had poor focus and vayne cpould kill them 1 by 1 for an casual Penta, they remember the games in which Garren+Sion gett killed bay a vayne that was 0/3/1 just cuase Vaynes biggest power is killing tanky stuff while kiteing melees, so she was put into a scenario that played perfectly to her strengths. She is a Hardcounter vs specific champs, and that is something damn frustraiting no matter how balanced she is overall(same for kallista and her cursed passive)

So her current job seems to be 'beeing overhelming if allowed to AA freely', but with 550 range AAing freely isn't always an option and she's usless if she can't do her job. The %-true damage and tankbusting thing just adds to the 'beeing overhelming' part, if she is allowed to AA freely, it doesn't matter who she AAs, with 70bonus ad from ult, great base stats for an adc and her Q, she can 2-3shot squishys with 2+AS, while her W shreds down tanks.

so yea, by that definition of her job, she does her job to damn well, while she also is to weak if she can't do her job.

ZylotheWolfbane3 votes

I think the primary issue is how heavily you have to build against a Vayne, as opposed to anything else. If the enemy team has a Vayne, and they are even equal with you, as a tank you HAVE to buy armor. You HAVE to purchase things like Thornmail, Randuins, Frozen Heart etc. It doesn't matter if the enemy team has an AP jungler, AP top, and AP mid, because if you don't build armor, Vayne will just murder you even if the entire rest of the team cannot. She is a one person AD threat equivalent to having an enemy team with Yi jungle and Zed mid.

It doesn't help that a lot of defensive items you would want to build against Vayne aren't actually as useful against her. Silver Bolts only becomes stronger as you buy health, therefore punishing the tanks for... building tanky. That one thing that is their job remember? Yeah, it more heavily punishes them for doing that. Add to the fact that Vayne will almost ALWAYS buy a BotRK, and as soon as you finish your Randuins Omen you are probably weaker against her than when you started. This is NOT a good feeling.

Now, whether Vayne is OP or not I can't say, but I will say that she makes any tanky enemy feel really bad about their whole build path, and makes their job significantly harder than against any other matchup in the game.

My Desired Name3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not going to necessarily argue that Vayne isn't strong right now, but her current state isn't one that has been changed too dramatically in the past couple of years. If anything, it seems like just Vayne being the same Vayne we've known her to be all along.

To the best of my knowledge, Vayne wasn't seen as such a power pick even just a few months ago. As far as itemizing against her goes, you probably know that you have the same options against her as you do any other basic attacker, but I guess Silver Bolts just makes all your itemization choices feel bad? Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

All that said, I'm not really sure what the appropriate measure, if any, to take on Vayne is.

But why should she be great at tankbusting AND killing everything else? No other ADC has %health true damage. There should be a negative with every positive, and to me it seems like Vayne has no negatives to compensate for her strengths. Maybe I'm missing something.

GhostOfShrimpmas3 votes

The problem is very much that it makes all your itemization choices feel bad. Even though I know mathematically that building a Randuin's or Frozen Heart is going to help survive longer against her, after dying to her, and looking at the death recap, I feel like that was 3000g wasted. It's the same problem that Xerath had with his old siege mode magic pen. Yes, building magic defense items helped out a little, but it felt awful regardless. She feels very stat-checky, in the way that, as a tank, your only options against her are to blow her up or die regardless of what you build.

For Carthage3 votes

Well, I'd have to agree with a few people on an oddity of Vayne: she gets base true damage in addition to the % health true damage. But there's a reason why this is odd.

So Vayne's a tankbuster, right? Does a % of true damage to an enemy's health. This means that it's going to be super bloody effective against tanks and not quite so effective against squishier units.

But the thing about the base true damage is that that's hardly a scratch against tanks without the bonus base health damage. This flat health damage actually harms squishies more than tanks, and that's really bloody strange. You then basically have a champ that's as efficient at destroying tanks as she is at assassinating people without retaliation. That's nuts, especially considering she still builds ADC (with crit and damage), on top of a damage steroid on her Q. She does everything other ADC's do and far, far more.

Karn Bishop3 votes

You could grant Vi 4 seconds of true vision when she ults vayne, that way i can kill her faster, and also make it so eve can see her while vaynes invisible since invisible people exist on the same spectrum and can therefore see each other.

KingKong23502 votes

coolest Eve buff ever. Bye shaco

Kingsgrave4 votes

{quoted}

I'm not going to necessarily argue that Vayne isn't strong right now, but her current state isn't one that has been changed too dramatically in the past couple of years. If anything, it seems like just Vayne being the same Vayne we've known her to be all along.

To the best of my knowledge, Vayne wasn't seen as such a power pick even just a few months ago. As far as itemizing against her goes, you probably know that you have the same options against her as you do any other basic attacker, but I guess Silver Bolts just makes all your itemization choices feel bad? Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

All that said, I'm not really sure what the appropriate measure, if any, to take on Vayne is.

Bonus Health scaling on her W instead of just Max HP so that it doesn't end up dealing more damage to squishies at Rank 5 than it does to Tanks

Earl Eulrich4 votes

Silver Bolts reads as a spell that says "I'm a great tankbuster," so to me, to be upset that the spell seems to be doing its intended job begs the questions "Is it doing that job too well?" and/or "Is she doing other things too well?"

guess the true problem is that the rest of her kit screams "i´ll twoshot anything that is not a tank lategame" - so neither tanks nor not-tanks feel great playing against her and itturns into a blow her up or see her clean anything scenario to fight a vayne. And getting focused by 5man is just not really appropriate as only weakness...

Reynard the ƒox5 votes

The main problem I see is that Vayne says "I'm a great tankbuster", but she doesn't tell you that "I bust squishies just as hard too".

67chrome32 votes

How are tanks even supposed to remotely itemize against her? Is this considered balanced?

Vayne has always had %max HP true damage, and as far as I can remember it's always been 8% at max rank. It's something Riot's defended on several occasions, and there nerfs to her kit have hit everything else besides it when they've needed to address her.

The bulk of Vayne's damage is physical auto-attack based due in large part to her ult's steroid and Tumble's bonus damage as well, which item 3143 item 3082 item 3075 item 3110 item 3047 all hit with a double-whammy.


As for her true damage, consider: A) LoL is a game reliant on skill and using tactics and stratagy to a certain extent B) No tactic or stratagy works 100% of the time in LoL

You can't dodge point-click skills with mobility. You can't land point-click skills on opponents in fog of war, stealth, brush, invisibility, stasis, or untargetability. You can't use Tenacity or Cleanse vs. slowing fields, knockbacks, pulls, suppression, or knockups. You can't damage invulnerable targets or targets that refuse to drop below 1 hp. You can't rely on out-tanking someone that's tankier than you. You can't rely on out-running someone that's speedier than you. You can't rely on out-ranging someone with more range than you.

The answer to every champion simply isn't just counter-build them even if you are a tank or fighter capable of doing so.

With Vayne counter-building her will force close to 37.5 AAs with her %max HP ture damage alone though. This is in a game where Nasus can 2-shot a squishy, so it's not like counter-building her damage does nothing. You just don't get to be invulnerable vs. her if she manages to hit you 30+ times, and she gets to do something if she manages to survive within 550 range of you long enough.


In regards to fighters - getting within striking distance of her as a tanky DPS like Nasus, Shyvana, Warwick, Olaf, or Udyr and flat out killing Vayne is your stratagy. Difficult if you telegraph your movements and get immobilized by the enemy team. Not particularly difficult if you use walls, brush, fog of war, and/or wards to approach her from a difficult angle and land a few hits. She's a solid chaser, not a great runner.

In regards to tanks - Vayne is the highest priority target on the enemy team to lock down with CC. Her front-loaded burst is pretty low and her damage contribution will rapidly climb the longer she's allowed to auto-attack, which most CC prevents her from doing. Vayne's defensive mechanic is mostly reliant on out-maneuvering her foes as well, which CC generally stops.

In most cases true CC tanks counter Vayne much harder than she counters them, seeing as most are amazing at initiating a team-fight and locking down priority targets, where Vayne is a mediocre team-fighter by most accounts and does not handle being locked down very well.


Anyways - don't assume defense is always the answer. In regards to a lot of bruisers and fighter/tanks it's pretty useless as well, darn hybridized physical/magical/auto-attack/ability damage output.

But every champion has different strengths and weaknesses. Your job is to find them out, exploit their weaknesses, and avoid their strengths. Not try to muscle your way past their strengths with your weaknesses.

Swollwonder6 votes

On itemization: You're saying in order to optimize against vayne I would need FOUR of my SIX items dedicated to ONE person of their FIVE man team. In addition, I have to tank four their bursty ap mid (which I cant do because cant build health) and possible a bruiser as well all while vayne is shooting at me because I'm the front line. Can you name one other champion that I need FOUR items to completely optimize against as opposed to the usual two?

On team play: Yes you should kill vayne first. Pretty simple. But Solo Q games are not like that. You can't ask if X has their ult up or if Y is split pushing without taking a significant delay. In addition, split second picks don't happen as much because of the communication factor mentioned previously. Lastly on this matter, solo Q games tend to go on longer than team based game often leading to that "You didn't win early prepare to lose" (which I think is a terrible design philosophy, see Veigar and Nasus, but that's a different story) situation. "You didn't win early" should not be a counter to a champion. P.S. for this section of "she isn't a great team fighter" see above thornmail video. That statement is debatable as she can shred your front line just as quickly as she can your back.

Does vayne have a distinct role as a tank killing adc? Yes she does. Weaknesses? Sure. Does she do the job too well? Yes.

67chrome2 votes

On itemization: You're saying in order to optimize against vayne I would need FOUR of my SIX items dedicated to ONE person of their FIVE man team.

I mentioned items that hit Vayne's physical damage pretty hard, not a build you need to counter her damage.

On team play: Yes you should kill vayne first. Pretty simple. But Solo Q games are not like that. You can't ask if X has their ult up or if Y is split pushing without taking a significant delay.

You know that circle above the portraits of your allies? If it's green their ult is off CD. You don't have to ask them to know ;)

Split-pushing is also a pretty slow and plodding strategy you have plenty of time to communicate about.

Most importantly: the game isn't balanced around yoloqueue adventures, it's balanced around the pro scene.

Does vayne have a distinct role as a tank killing adc? Yes she does. Weaknesses? Sure. Does she do the job too well? Yes.

Vayne only does her job to well in yoloqueue, where the game isn't balanced around yoloqueue. Her win rate and performance in normals, ranked, and even the competitive scene is all around pretty average.

Swollwonder1 votes

So ignore 75% of the player base

Seems legit

ayNigerianPrince3 votes

its balanced somewhere around plat. I would assume most plat players would be decent enough to know how to cc the enemy Vayne down and burst her down. Obviously that won't be possible every time in every game, but death is the best cc anyway.

Silents42920 votes

Sir are you suggesting we use actual skill to defeat Vayne instead of tanking all her damage and charging at her from the front?

Shame on you!

MohawkBird2 votes

[deleted]

Anidan5 votes

She is, but if she has to outright run away she isn't that great at it. Tumble doesn't start its cooldown until she hits something, last I remember so she may only get to use it once if she's running away. Not only that, Tumble doesn't allow her to go through walls (very few, and exceedingly difficult, certain exceptions barred) so she can't outpace someone like an Udyr who really, really wants her tasty gams. Her strength is in-combat mobility and slipperiness, sorta like Kalista, but with added dueling power and less objective control and a lot less utility.

Jamaree18 votes

{quoted}

Vayne, in her current state, cannot be allowed to exist. You can't itemize against her. If the idea is "build thornmail

build thornmail

thornmail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wr3qP-ypd8

My Desired Name29 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wr3qP-ypd8

Uhh, you realize she almost killed entire team by herself, right?

swagyeet4207 votes

one pink ward would've saved them all, something a lot of people forget to buy

Narasimha13 votes

Considering they all ran around like headless chickens without fighting back, REALLY not surprising.

Maikal2 votes

What are you talking about? Ekko couldn't get on her b/c of maokai and vayne's stupid condemn, so he killed maokai with ashe and shen. After he died shen and ashe focused whoever was closest (as they should) and Janna tried to keep ashe safe. Never mind though, they're headless chickens, who focuses the tank? LOL always go for adc, rest of enemy team not important. Kappa.

Myozthirirn4 votes

{quoted}

(as they should)

Realy?

Orangesilk3 votes

Yes, an ADC moving out of position to hit backline targets is the hallmark of low silver.

Myozthirirn1 votes

Im not arguing if they do (that they dont) Im arguing if they should

Mast3rShake2 votes

Yes, they should be hitting the closest high priority target. If a higher priority target moves into range you switch your focus

Swollwonder6 votes

Even thornmail, the ban of adcs, doesn't work regardless of health levels. Sad face

Rysophage5 votes

You're not supposed to be ABLE to itemize against vayne. that's the point. you need to outplay her. period. thornmail and randuins does not make everything K. you need to be in a position to insta-gib her because she has to do the same to deal damage in a teamfight as well. BUT i do agree she needs to be nerfed. her W does a bit too much damage at early lvls i would tone down the base dmg on the first 2 ranks or so. If you want good W damage you should have to max it or at least get it to lvl 3. What i've been doing is getting tumble to lvl 3, then maxing W after so i have max lvl W at lvl 10, and my tumble is still on a decent cooldown. It feels unfair sometimes lol especially considering Bork works with her sooooo well. That W needs to be hit in some way early game, but not in a way that would destroy her identity as a late game tank killing monster.

P.S I play alot of vayne so don't try to tell me I don't know what im talking about just becuase i'm silver. https://i.gyazo.com/4ca6c4df793d4a7b0666c639ed69699f.png

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

You're not supposed to be ABLE to itemize against vayne. that's the point. you need to outplay her. period. thornmail and randuins does not make everything K. you need to be in a position to insta-gib her because she has to do the same to deal damage in a teamfight as well. BUT i do agree she needs to be nerfed. her W does a bit too much damage at early lvls i would tone down the base dmg on the first 2 ranks or so. If you want good W damage you should have to max it or at least get it to lvl 3. What i've been doing is getting tumble to lvl 3, then maxing W after so i have max lvl W at lvl 10, and my tumble is still on a decent cooldown. It feels unfair sometimes lol especially considering Bork works with her sooooo well. That W needs to be hit in some way early game, but not in a way that would destroy her identity as a late game tank killing monster.

P.S I play alot of vayne so don't try to tell me I don't know what im talking about just becuase i'm silver. https://i.gyazo.com/4ca6c4df793d4a7b0666c639ed69699f.png

you weren't suppose to itemize against old Udyr, that's the point. he had %max hp damage, high magic damage+physical damage You should have outplayed him by kitting him and blablablabla

still riot removed the magic damage from tigger and now his main damage is physical, and madred which was magical damage is now item 3153 physical damage.

Vayne can be itemized against by building full armor and no HP. That would work if she hadn't base true damage on her W.(this needs to be removed)

Rysophage3 votes

item 3931 Isn't physical LOL and by the way, a tanky fighter and an hyper carry ADC are completely different champions. Balancing is completely different as well. Be more salty that frozen heart isn't going to save you. You don't pick single target pick champions against a vayne she's one of if not THE best duelist in the game. Zed, Xin zhao, Rengar, etc. that shit dosen't work against a good vayne. You need AOE. She has short range so if you force her to hit a frontline that isnt trying to balls to the wall dive her alone, then your AP and maybe even your support will have the room to kill her without even focusing her. But you're probably one of those kids who just tunnel visions the vayne with no pink ward or bckup CC or anything. gets outplayed, and cries that she's broken.

Ser Garland2 votes

{quoted}

You're not supposed to be ABLE to itemize against vayne. that's the point. you need to outplay her. period. thornmail and randuins does not make everything K. you need to be in a position to insta-gib her because she has to do the same to deal damage in a teamfight as well. BUT i do agree she needs to be nerfed. her W does a bit too much damage at early lvls i would tone down the base dmg on the first 2 ranks or so. If you want good W damage you should have to max it or at least get it to lvl 3. What i've been doing is getting tumble to lvl 3, then maxing W after so i have max lvl W at lvl 10, and my tumble is still on a decent cooldown. It feels unfair sometimes lol especially considering Bork works with her sooooo well. That W needs to be hit in some way early game, but not in a way that would destroy her identity as a late game tank killing monster.

P.S I play alot of vayne so don't try to tell me I don't know what im talking about just becuase i'm silver. https://i.gyazo.com/4ca6c4df793d4a7b0666c639ed69699f.png

Yeah, but when you play someone like Shen, who is incapable of outplaying anyone. What do you do? Vayne has a stealth, a dash, a knock back, a MS and AS steroid. Shen has a dash and a useless shield.

Gorgannan10 votes

I hate to say it, but some champions really just can't deal with other champions.

Renekton cannot win lane vs. Panth.

Darius will beat MOST top laners.

Even late game, this is a thing. Malzahar will 1v1 you. Do not stray from your team against a Malzahar. No ADC can beat an equally fed Rengar. If we're talking late game, you HAVE to depend on your team.

ArkenStorm2 votes

Two things: One, nobody should care about your rank, that has next to ZERO bearing on game knowledge. Two, I would hit the flat true damage portion, because she is too good at killing EVERYONE, regardless of who they are. I would maybe have 5/10/15/20/25 flat scaling on the true damage, leaving %maxHP damage the same. Although I am one for entirely removing the flat true damage, it may not be necessary.

More from Gameplay

More by Swollwonder