If AD champions get a hexdrinker and a sterak's...

Elohaven··7 votes·1,803 views

Then why can't AP champions get an item to shield them against AD burst/damage.

We can get any AD assassin or midlaner to instantly rush a hexdrinker so they never die in lane but tabis gets nerfed, they still get AD from hexdrinker to help them in lane, and it also builds into a third tier item so it's a game-long investment.

"Well mages have Zhonyas" --- AD champions have Guardian Angel, an item that was perfect before it was shifted to only be for AD champions.

I feel gameplay is too oriented around AD champions. It feels like favoritism or it may be. I want two items for AP champions:

-- AP version of QSS -- Edit: Upon further research, I disagree with the above suggestion -- AP version of hexdrinker to shield from AD

Does anyone else feel that this is a need for AP champions?

Edit: To those arguing item 3003 is a choice - it's a late-game shield compared to hexdrinker which is instant upon purchase.

33 Comments

Dead flag blues4 votes

As another thread I posted, imo either item 3040 should activate automatically upon death, or item 3155 needs to be triggered manually.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

item 3040 debatable, basially an AP item 3026 ? item 3155 yes put skill expression into this item. They should nerf some of the MR, 35 is way too much on an item that also grants AD.

Elisheva3 votes

item 3157 item 3102 item 3504 Yalls are arguably more useful.

Dead flag blues1 votes

{quoted}

item 3157 item 3102 item 3504 Yalls are arguably more useful.

the almighty Ardent anivia

meowwow72 votes

when you forgot to switch out the secondary resolve with life font for something either on domination or inspiration it can be used quite well

Elohaven2 votes

Banshees is more of an Edge of Night. Zhonyas is a mirror of GA. And Ardent is for supports.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

Banshees is more of an Edge of Night. Zhonyas is a mirror of GA. And Ardent is for supports.

Zhonya's is absolutely not a mirror of GA.

Elohaven2 votes

I would say it's the GA for AP champions. It offers a period of brief inactivity and invulnerability on a unit before allowing them to move again. GA offers AD and zhonyas AP to their respective champions.

If not a mirror, similar items in concept.

What's your take on it?

Iręlía2 votes

IN his defense, GA almost gives you an entire second hp bar. You can usually throw caution ot the wind with it, but zhyonas is temporary statis that a lot of people consider a noob trap back in the day cause it usually meant your death sentence staying still.

Just my take.

The Minion hunt3 votes

item 3048 shields everything. item 3001 ad doesn't have an item like this.

Elohaven2 votes

Archangel is a mid to late-game item requiring time to stack. Hexdrinker is automatic and scaling.

Edit: If you disagree with my statement, I would like to see a post. Based on dowvotes, I'm getting some of you think Archangel is as good as hexdrinker early game.

The Minion hunt1 votes

I agree hexdrinker is broken early game, sadly it was balanced when it didn't have a upgrade, but lane isn't for fight its for farming. although I do understand that if u cant win a fight its harder to farm.

Mordepool2 votes

Steraks Should only be useful to Juggernauts. Riots been fucking with the Base AD though

C9 Squeeky 2 votes

600g item 2419, builds into item 3157 1300g item 3155

I do think Hex has too much raw MR on it. They should just nerf that or increase the gold cost & have it build out of a item 1037 or something.

Hópe2 votes

{quoted}

Then why can't AP champions get an item to shield them against AD burst/damage.

We can get any AD assassin or midlaner to instantly rush a hexdrinker so they never die in lane but tabis gets nerfed, they still get AD from hexdrinker to help them in lane, and it also builds into a third tier item so it's a game-long investment.

"Well mages have Zhonyas" --- AD champions have Guardian Angel, an item that was perfect before it was shifted to only be for AD champions.

I feel gameplay is too oriented around AD champions. It feels like favoritism or it may be. I want two items for AP champions:

-- AP version of QSS -- AP version of hexdrinker to shield from AD

Does anyone else feel that this is a need for AP champions?

Edit: To those arguing item 3003 is a choice - it's a late-game shield compared to hexdrinker which is instant upon purchase.

Imagine being such a bad player that you are complaining about AP champs items compared to AD at this time in day

Elohaven2 votes

Sorry, I didn't know my 60% winratio was bad. Oops, definitely love the ad hominem from a player who relies on them since they can't formulate a counterargument.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I didn't know my 60% winratio was bad. Oops, definitely love the ad hominem from a player who relies on them since they can't formulate a counterargument.

You're in Gold 5. Do not brag about a 60% win rate in Gold 5.

Elohaven2 votes

I know you rank-shaming is your only way to make yourself relevant in this argument - but this thread isn't here to stroke your ego. I hope you follow your own advice and realize your rank is also insignificant.

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Why do you talk winrate then accuse rankshaming, you brought skill into the argument beforehand.

And then you rank shame right after lol ps: he's plat 4, that's an entire division above you and almost borderline high elo

Elohaven2 votes

Ironic that you complain about hypocrisy, take my rank, and mock at me.

Why do you talk winrate then accuse rankshaming, you brought skill into the argument beforeha

Not even my OP talks about skill.

{quoted}

Imagine being such a bad player that you are complaining about AP champs items compared to AD at this time in day

He said my skill-level is why my argument should be dismissed. So I responded with my winrate doesn't indicate this is out of rage or lack of skill.

He then proceeds to state:

You're in Gold 5. Do not brag about a 60% win rate in Gold 5.

My argument is rank is not an indication of a poor argument. Instead of being relevant to the thread, he focused on ad hominems to argue. I don't see any rank-shaming on my part unless you mean this comment from:

I hope you follow your own advice and realize your rank is also insignificant.

Which is meant to state rank doesn't validate any of our arguments and explain the irony of his comments.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

I know you rank-shaming is your only way to make yourself relevant in this argument - but this thread isn't here to stroke your ego. I hope you follow your own advice and realize your rank is also insignificant.

You cant even stack steraks + maw together

Let alone Steraks cant be used on ranged AD champs

Let alone the mid laners you describe using hex are melee while you are ranged.

The melee go in champ should always have more defensive items than the ranged champ.

Almost every AP champ get utility + wave clear + ranged safety + more health from items than ADs in the mid lane.

Seriously dont understand why you're complaining when AP champs just got their items reworked.

Elohaven1 votes

Sterak's is for AD vs AD which isn't the point of the post. It's not part of my argument. I was just talking about the passive which is like hexdrinker's.

Maw is a global advantage for all AD champions while AP champions do not have such an item for their AD counterparts. Hexdrinker offers a early-game to mid-game spike and scales into the late-game with maw - significantly reducing the rewards of AP champions. An AD champion can mess up easily but hexdrinker saves them from the precipice of would-be death while Archangel's and Zhonyas is an only option with a mid-game to late-game reliance.

And because ranged champions cannot get sterak's, AD assassins can snowball more easily as there's less to negate their damage other than supports but ADCs can easily get a hexdrinker with a support/ally's defense.

AP defensive build:

Zhonyas Banshees Archangel (Must be stacked - around mid-game)

AD defensive build:

Guardian Angel Edge of Night Mercurial Scimitar Hexdrinker --> Maw (Automatically in the early-game)

Now, granted, the shield from Archangel's is great for the late-game but we should also offer a form of early-game shields for AP champions. Tabi is nerfed as well.

The issue comes as AD assassins are able to burst AP mid-laners with their whole kit with AP laners having not much to mitigate but AD assassins have merc threads, hexdrinker, QSS, and GA to stop a majority of an AP assassin's kit while sacrificing little to their scaling.

Also, AD midlaners have mobility spells to face the mages and damage them. Mages are immobile compared to AD assassins.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

Sterak's is for AD vs AD which isn't the point of the post. It's not part of my argument. I was just talking about the passive which is like hexdrinker's.

What. What.? What..????? 450 health + AD is ONLY good against an AD champ? You mean the shield you get for being bursted (something ap champs do ) is only for when you're against ad?

Maw is a global advantage for all AD champions while AP champions do not have such an item for their AD counterparts.

Of course AP champs do have such a thing, its called not being melee, having wave clear and having utility while ad champs in the mid do not have this

And because ranged champions cannot get sterak's, AD assassins can snowball more easily as there's less to negate their damage other than supports but ADCs can easily get a hexdrinker with a support/ally's defense.

AP defensive build:

Zhonyas Banshees Archangel (Must be stacked - around mid-game)

By mid game you mean 17 minutes. item 3165 item 3151 item 3029 Give you health btw. But who needs health right.

AD defensive build:

Guardian Angel Edge of Night Mercurial Scimitar Hexdrinker --> Maw (Automatically in the early-game)

That sounds like a horrible fucking build for an AD champ.

Now, granted, the shield from Archangel's is great for the late-game but we should also offer a form of early-game shields for AP champions. Tabi is nerfed as well.

Granted AD champs in the mid are supposed to snowball.. Thats the whole purpose.. They dont have utility wave clear or safety so im not sure why you even have this horrible argument.

It sounds to me like you're having trouble understanding why AD champs get maw and merc scimitar. Maybe you should ignore everything Ive just said and go play Talon or Zed or whoever you're complaining about and let me know how it goes

Elohaven1 votes

The defensive items were a list of defensive options for each group.

Of course AP champs do have such a thing, its called not being melee, having wave clear and having utility while ad champs in the mid do not have this

With huge costs for their mana-hunger until they reach a tear with the addition of low AP damage early game as well.

---> Here I can go into the mobility and CDR creep along with the early game deficits AP mages also face despite their benefits, but upon reviewal I think this discussion can shift to a new point.

Now looking at things myself, it seems the actual solution I was looking for in my OP was to increase hexdrinker's price due to its purchase point being too easy to access and shutting down most mages in lane.

This prevents abuse cases on the suggested new item, allows AD assassins to snowball, but also forces them more risk into duels. Hexdrinker is a safety item but shouldn't be used to immediately negate risk in duels early game.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

The defensive items were a list of defensive options for each group.

With huge costs for their mana-hunger until they reach a tear with the addition of low AP damage early game as well.

WHAT MANA COSTS. YOU HAVE A RUNE THAT GIVES YOU FREE MANA EVERY MINUTE. YOUR FIRST BACK IS THIS ITEM 90% OF THE TIME item 3802

saltran2 votes

If GA was perfect before being an AD item don't know why none of the ap champs used to buy it, which ap bought old GA?

Elohaven2 votes

I actually liked the change Riot made but it was more of a rare defensive item for mages. EG ADCs get frozen heart or randuins sometimes for defensive builds.

It was perfect to me because it only offered defensive stats and wasn't a class-specific item. Now, it's tailored towards AD and granted the AP itemization rework was well done, I still want to see insight on hexdrinker.

Iręlía1 votes

I used to buy it on old Syndra cause she had damage FOR DAYS (and still does) so a defensive item was awesome.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

ad - basic attacks, attack damage modifiers

ap - ability power modifiers

ad and ap do not directly translate into physical and magical damage. nor do they directly translate into aoe, ranged, melee, etc.

in fact it's a bit silly to try to compare the items based on what role uses them because simply put at least 1 champion in each role can use the item. that's the benefit of having a large and diverse roster.

for thematic purposes i'd argue that each item was thought of as an item to answer a specific situation and not so much about "do we have one of these"

i've listed most if not all of the "defensive items" below with at least 1 unique scenario.

TLDR each item serves a purpose regardless of stats provided. copy pasting items and then swapping out stats isn't necessarily a healthy alternative.

item 3157 - made for assassins with long cooldowns to catch opponents off guard by performing 2 burst chains without retaliation

item 3102 - made for mage vs mage combat

item 3193 - meant for disruption based champions to control front lines

item 3156 - designed to throw an opponent off by granting a shield that wasnt expected. contests burst damage.

item 3139 - free a trapped champion from entanglement during engagement or retreat.

item 3053 - meant to be used by high hp/base ad champions to block shots. direct counter to caitlyn's R among other things.

item 3040 - designed as a reward for champions with deep wells of mana for their struggle early game. meant to aid a champion by allowing them to flush their mana reserve and use it as a shield since their damage is usually DOT effects. this grants a more immediate benefit to counter shear damage output.

item 3742 - designed for hit and run tactics.

item 3814 - meant to prevent getting locked down as an assassin going for the back line. ineffective due to the cost and limited effect.

item 3110 - anti basic attack aura. works well against melee attackers who rely on basic attacks to apply debuffs or grant buffs.

item 3001 - creates an amplified zone for magic damage. on its own is very ineffective unless used by champions with DOT auras such as karthus or mundo. main benefit is the magic resist which is better on other items. replaces rod of ages in most builds.

item 3194 - designed specifically for old liandry's + teemo shroom/cassiopeoia. DOT counter.

item 3060 - creates a minion that requires the enemy champion to deal physical damage to it in order to defeat it. great for afk pushing lanes or countering aggressive mages.

item 3026 - grants the defeated player 1 more chance at killing their opponent. useful for high skill based champions or lifesteal builds where your opponent has applied grievous wounds to you.

item 3025 - for champions with little impact in their abilities, but can spam them consistently. meant for tanks with low cooldowns or fighters with high basic attack damage and not enough lockdown.

item 3190 - meant to be used to counter heavy aoe attacks like zigg's R.

item 3222 - for saving your tank (or dumb friend) after they've been crowd controlled.

item 3143 - a do it all answer for critical damage users - ashe, yasuo, jhin etc.

item 3800 - meant to be an item used for contesting epic camps, preventing escapes, and rushing vulnerable turrets with baron buff.

item 3083 - for champions who need to stay in lane or are almost impossible to kill with burst damage.

item 3512 - for split pushing.

item 3050 - for champion duo lanes that rely on a lot of teamwork (xayah and rakan, taric and kalista, etc.)

item 3091 - useful for fighting older camps that used to deal magic damage.(baron, dragon) now used to whittle down magic tanks while dealing lots of on hit damage.

item 3075 - punishes classic lifesteal. counters high attack speed users.

item 3068 - creates a do not approach zone. useful for farming. must have on champions who do not prefer to engage their opponents in lane.

item 3065 - buffs heals. useful on self healers or if your team has a soraka/sona. almost a waste if the enemy team buys grievous wounds.

item 3111 - prevents hard crowd control

item 3056 - meant for divers or to combo with mighty blow. underappreciated.

item 3047 - anti-basic attacker. works against all enemies whether you're in lane or jungle.

item 3009 - reduces slows.

item 3046 - mainly prevents duelers from out damaging you in 1v1's.

Elohaven1 votes

My post is a suggestion to let AP champions have an early game item similar to hexdrinker since AD champions have a great advantage in burst vs burst or fighting scenarios. Not a comparison.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

{quoted}

My post is a suggestion to let AP champions have an early game item similar to hexdrinker since AD champions have a great advantage in burst vs burst or fighting scenarios. Not a comparison.

then let me shorten my reply. i disagree.

Ahri Baka1 votes

it does

KlydeFrog1 votes

It's called hourglass there champ

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