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Whats the main reason preventing @Riot from making Assassin items Assassin only?[and Black Cleaver]

NodirjonSattarov··6 votes·994 views

Those of you who say "item diversity" are masking the actual reason which is being able to burst from a distance. Why? It's fun because you shit on someone with 0 consequence.

How to solve the problem? Make it like a Runaan's / Hydra scenario. ADC's don't get to build Hydra because their wave clear would be astounding on top of life steal and active. Melee can't build Runaan's because I honestly don't know how that'd work.

The amount of problems AADCs (Assassin ADCs) have caused in S6 is actually ridiculous but Riot catered to them for LCS and other reasons (diversity? I think not). They keep changing the items and creating new items for a group of champions to abuse it (EoN). It's appalling that the devs continue to make mistakes without learning from the past. What is the solution to all this non-sense? JUST TEST IT OUT. JUST RUN IT THROUGH THE PBE FOR 2 WEEKS.

  1. Make Youmoos, EoN, and Duskblade melee only. Possibly revert all the bullshit that you guys changed (the shit you guys did to cater to ADCs).

  2. Make Black Cleaver melee only and revert the mental changes (due to ADCs).

  3. Perhaps get more PBE testers because anything that's released seems to be problematic for quite some time.

thoughts?

34 Comments

CancerBasedGod2 votes

Yeah ranged champions shouldn't be able to deal damage!... .... ... Seriously?

MissingKayo3 votes

Fallacy.

CancerBasedGod2 votes

No it isn't. With these items restricted you're essentially just saying a large amount of damage should be blocked from ADCs.

NodirjonSattarov3 votes

I honestly want to know what you think ADCs built pre S6. In fact, I believe you didn't even play in the previous seasons or even in S6.

Incarceration1 votes

What about Jhin and Miss Fortune? They are AD casters so they do deserve to have lethality due to Jhin's low attack speed, and Miss Fortune's low base attack damage which means they dish out more spell damage. I guess Miss Fortune is becoming too much of a problem, but no one else really builds the items besides the people meant for it.

NodirjonSattarov3 votes

So you're saying to allow lethality exclusively for 2 champions that are able to build crit/AD perfectly fine. Jhin is GATED by his lack of attack speed which is compensated with insane scalings. MF has low base damage because having higher base damages would make her passive broken. Additionally, you're not getting Lethality for the AD stats. You're purchasing Lethality specifically for the armor reduction since it applies directly to base+bonus armor. You're not even getting Lethality for the CDR which is what AD casters should be getting.

Incarceration1 votes

I would rather limit how many lethality items can be bought on ranged champions rather than reducing the effectiveness or the ability to even have it.

MissingKayo2 votes

The easiest solution is half effectiveness for ranged. And even that is extremely generous. They weren't even supposed to have it. So they don't even get the right to complain because if anything, all the Lethality items should have been made melee-only in the first place. It wasn't meant for them.

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

There is already a limit for how many lethality items you can by (reasonably). Youmoos, EoN, and Duskblade. Buying duplicates is inefficient.

The stats you get from this are:

  • 175 AD
  • 50 Lethality (which translate to 30 immediate armor pen, 20 scaling)
  • 10% CDR
  • 30 flat move speed
  • 20% increased movespeed during Youmoos active
  • ward black out from Duskblade
  • preemptive spellshield

So your claim that its for AD casters is appalling since the stats only give 10% CDR, 175 AD. <- Those are AD caster stats. The stats I listed above scream "I'M AN ASSASSIN TRYING TO FIND A WAY IN WITH LOTS OF MOVE SPEED AND A SPELLSHIELD IN CASE ANNIE USES TIBBERS ON ME".

MaeDoSan1 votes

Show how much more damage adcs do after the 0.4 to 0.6 change on lvl 1 lethatlity to prove your point . OR maybe they suddenly started building all 3 items together and you have forgotten that adcs do damage in the mid game have to start respecting them

MissingKayo2 votes

Do you do anything besides post the same dumb incorrect crap over and over?

MaeDoSan1 votes

Show me the numbers , no one has

MaeDoSan1 votes

Dude you said I am incorrect where is the math ? OR did you fail 5th grade

The Last Ballad1 votes

I don't know what this person has done in the past to offend you, but there isn't anything wrong with asking for hard, non-anecdotal(evidence based on experience, say playing a game where a lethality adc rocked) proof of a claim.

It's not even like it would be impossible to do the calculations, maybe time consuming to do a good job with tables and graphs and such, but off the top of my head the change would of given .2% more effective damage on each bit of lethality, following the logic of 1 ar/mr giving you 1% increased effective health -> 1 ar/mr pen must give you 1% more damage against your targets.

MissingKayo2 votes

He's been going around posting the exact same copy-pasted reply over and over.

You can just do the calculations.

Lethality was 40% directly converted to flat armor penetration (now 60%) and the other 60% scaling with the enemy level (now 40%). And it's not just about ADCs doing damage.

It's that they do far too much in early when they're supposed to be weak because they are hyperscalers. This would be fine if they actually gave up any meaningful lategame power. They don't. The ones building Lethality in the first place are AD casters. Not typical ADCs. So crit and attack speed aren't good on them anyways. So that has no effect. They top it off with a Lord Dominik's or Mortal Reminder and bam, the percent armor penetration applies before flat armor penetration does. This means even tanks will take ridiculous amounts of damage. Meanwhile, squishies will just get vaporized altogether.

There is no drop off in power that actually means anything.

Lethality/flat armor penetration wasn't even meant for ADCs or ranged champions in the first place. It was meant for melee assassins.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Your just saying stuff that you think is right Show the math that using full lethality adcs have this much % higher dps to tanks at full build and all the other crap your claiming coz you just got shit on by someone with lethality that snowballed so you couldnt even stack armour

MissingKayo2 votes

Not even close, but congratulations on making completely incorrect assumptions.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Omg how dumb can you get ? what did i do ? did i do calculations ? where are the assumptions ? I'm asking YOU to give a proper explanation........ the numbers mean more

The Last Ballad1 votes

Show the math that using full lethality adcs have this much % higher dps to tanks at full build and all the other crap your claiming coz you just got shit on by someone with lethality that snowballed so you couldnt even stack armour

I'm going to use this to answer your questions.

did i do calculations?

No, you did not. Instead of begging others to do the math for you, just do it yourself. That way, either you are wrong and can quietly slip away without being shamed, or you are right and have proof.

Off the top of my head, the .4 to .6 change gave the adc's that built the items 20% more base damage, as they have 20% more of their full pen. Technically using only those numbers they are doing 150% damage that they did before the change, as they are doing the full damage that .4 would've given them, plus half of that damage in addition. It evens out eventually, but for early levels it is more powerful, and the early levels is where the adc's that buy these items shine.

where are the assumptions?

"this much % higher dps to tanks at full build" - the person never claimed that lethality did a higher % of dps, just that "even tanks will take ridiculous amounts of damage." which is not comparative, merely stating a fact(the fact being that if you strip a 200 ar tank of 45% of their armor, which leaves them at 110 ar, then penetrate ~30 of the remaining, it's as if they just attacked a champ that only had 80 armor. Which leads to a ton of damage to be done to a tank with 200 ar. Don't forget that many of them would go lord dominic's, which would give them 15% more in addition)

"coz you just got shit on by someone with lethality that snowballed so you couldn't even stack armour" Another assumption. One that may be true, but you didn't bring any evidence of this claim, so it appears to be a baseless assumption, and for all we know it is.

"Omg how dumb can you get?" - while not a statement of an assumption, you are insinuating that the person it dumb, and that means you are assuming they are dumb.

I'm asking YOU to give a proper explanation........ the numbers mean more

You are so obsessed with the numbers, yet entirely unwilling to do them yourself.

I find that suspicious. [slayer-jinx-unamused]

MaeDoSan1 votes

Simply Trash If you see my other posts I have done the calculations Not in the mood for it now Give me a real answer if you have one

ßurst1 votes

Adc's dont run lethality runes, they spike hard after they get yoummus then keep buying lethality because whats the point of not buying it you can abuse it. It's just riot doesn't really know how to balance armor pen around adc's since they seem to be abusing it all the time. Now stop posting your post over and over again. If they built all three items pre lethality buffs you'd see how much less dmg they did.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Just give me the math coz i have done it and I know you won't do it and keep blabering coz you got shit on coz suddenly adcs are doing damage that you were expecting in late game

ßurst1 votes

If you take every lethality thing possible so runes masteries and items, you will have the same amount of actual armor pen as you did when you were level 12-13 prior to buffs. Thats a huge spike for any adc's rushing yoummus, because they'll be relevant quicker which is what those adc's want. Also, imagine how this helps them against bot laners who have to build crit unlike them.

MaeDoSan1 votes

you are assuming constant armor pen maybe buy even so they get the same armor pen at lvl 5-6 and not 12-13

ßurst1 votes

I'm assuming the amount of lethality they have converted into actual armor pen. There was a spreadsheet that showed what buffed amount of lethality will give the armor pen amount you had prior to the buffs so .6 vs .4, the .6 value was even to the .4 value about 4-5 lvl's earlier could be even 3 depending on how much lethality you managed to buy early. But even 3 is a lot of levels.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Give me % of damage increase or link the spreadsheet

ßurst1 votes

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cLaMb0UwFNQmEM42DhYnZWBsg3xd0g9b6LaG0dhYI2g/edit#gid=0

ßurst1 votes

Keep in mind tho this is for the .4 value of lethality compare your math with this spreadsheet

ßurst1 votes

There I linked it have fun and read the key

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I do agree there is one item that should currently be limited (item 3053), but doing so for everything just shits all over diversity.

If something is too powerful in ranged hands, they can just add a ranged detriment to it, so that ranged characters have a trade off to building it. For example, Iceborn Gauntlet's slow zone is half as large for ranged characters.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

I think Steraks is a great defensive item vs burst. They could have probably tuned the numbers to half the shield/damage amplification for ranged champions but IDK what riot was thinking.

IBG slow zone is the same regardless of ranged or not.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General KogMaw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VEF9brM1,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-12T22:17:20.095+0000)

I think Steraks is a great defensive item vs burst. They could have probably tuned the numbers to half the shield/damage amplification for ranged champions but IDK what riot was thinking.

IBG slow zone is the same regardless of ranged or not.

Oh right, they changed that and added the Armor scaling.

There's still some items as such, though. Dead Man's Plate, for example; Crushing Blow deals no damage and has no slow effect for ranged champions (So a ranged champion would only benefit from the movement speed, and would lose it when they attack). Frozen Mallet is a 30% slow for ranged, and 40% slow for melee.

Etc.

Sterak's should just be melee only. That sort of item doesn't belong in a Marksmen's hands, because it covers the main drawback of being a Marksman.

Hige1 votes

there's no category for assassins in-game, looking at it from a system mechanics point of view, every champion is the same, items that are exclusive to ranged or melee use a simple metric on a stat that barely changes

if range is more than 250 then the melee item won't proc if range is less than 250 then the ranged item won't proc

but for assassins there isn't a metric that differentiates them from slayers or skirmishers

Of course you could add a stat that pushes champion onto one role but have you seen what happens when Riot enforces the meta? :S

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

My only guess is that Riot considers it the easy way out when confronted by itemization problems.

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