A tower went down in bot lane. Looks like both of the mid champs are done farming

Peel Your ADC·Apr 20, 2015·63 votes·7,798 views

Cause we're gonna group as 4 in mid and just stay there indefinitely, clearing waves by missing cs cause we spam skills til we're oom and someone takes drag.

Team pls

Edit: It's fine if you come to defend from a siege before dragon. But remember to not kill minions like you're the only one who needs items. Cause that makes the mid laner abandon mid and go to your lane you left to stay relevant in levels and gold.

Since you clearly couldn't.

120 Comments

Silents429Apr 20, 201528 votes

Oh god I love when our bot lane wins or loses a tower then decides to come mid and "help" me by taking my CS and XP.

DomainSpecificApr 20, 201519 votes

As a support main, I ask: What do you want us to do?

We can't stay bot because we would be open to ganks. When we go mid, we will try to take the tower down to gain map control and have easier access to dragon. Yeah, it sucks that ADCs will usually take all the farm from the mid, but that's the fastest way to push.

ApolloclipticApr 20, 20154 votes

Yeah, as a support main I often go "support" mid, if it's losing or fairly even, or cover it while mid goes top, but adc's tend to just farm, and it really doesn't help. Most Mid laners have a mini nuke wave clear skill. as support i'd weaken a bunch of the higher hp minions to give the Mid a wave clear, but the adc will just steal half of them :P

Also, @Domain, do you ever play tank supports, get face of the mountain, and find that no one, in any lane, ever lets you last hit a minion? I have been in situations where the adc or mid laner has almost no hp, but doesn't want to back off, so I try heal them a bit but they refuse to share lol. They often apologise after, but if they don't stop doing it, the apology feels a bit Hollow :/ (was very happy when I was defending top, Ryze came to wave clear, then left the big minion for my last FotM stack :D) too few players like this

DomainSpecificApr 20, 20153 votes

Haha the face of the mountain situation happens way too often. I think that people just forget; I try not to take it personal.

Even myself when I have to play top or mid, I sometimes forget that the support has that item, so I wave clear, and they get mad (totally reasonable reaction). I appreciate when supports ping the minions or chat to let me know they want to get them.

LeeDarkApr 21, 20151 votes

Relic Shield and Targon's Brace execute under 200 and 240 health, respectively. So unless you are playing Thresh, I have no sympathy for you. Early game, if you miss opportunities to get the last hit with that execute, it's your own fault.

If you are later in the game and have Face of the Mountain, you mostly have that for the shield it provides, not the gold generation. Every other item is better for gold generation once you reach the point where you should mostly be roaming to ward and your team WANTS to just shove the waves and move elsewhere. Expecting people to sit still so you can last hit at that point is a bit ridiculous.

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Relic Shield and Targon's Brace execute under 200 and 240 health, respectively. So unless you are playing Thresh, I have no sympathy for you. Early game, if you miss opportunities to get the last hit with that execute, it's your own fault.

If you are later in the game and have Face of the Mountain, you mostly have that for the shield it provides, not the gold generation. Every other item is better for gold generation once you reach the point where you should mostly be roaming to ward and your team WANTS to just shove the waves and move elsewhere. Expecting people to sit still so you can last hit at that point is a bit ridiculous.

How ignorant is that, Thresh has the easier time with relic shield, not the hardest, because in order to get that execute you need to get in range, which often your opponent sees you trying to do and will poke you out. You should only go to the canon minions with early forms of relic shield, and you shouldn't sit next to it waiting for the hp to get lower. So when the adc gets it down to about 50% and you move in, then they use a skill to burst it, then wtf are you meant to do, you have no sympathy cause you clearly haven't been in that situation. It's not hard to last hit, but your adc can prevent you from doing so if they want to (non canon minions is different because there's usually one you can just hit quickly, but you waste a stack of the item for when the canon ones arrive)

To be clear, you can use the first two stacks on anything, and get you next one back by the time the first canon minion arrives, but after that you should save them where possible, hence it being difficult when your adc goes out of their way to secure minions, you were gonna share with them anyway

Late game is different. First of all, I am talking mostly about situations where you've frozen a wave in front of a turret and are not pushing but waiting for allies who are farming jungle or still in base, you have all the time in the world to give your tank support some extra gold. Yes the item is not as effecient as others, doesn't mean you should make it harder.

And as for last hitting, you attack animation is much slower than an adc's so what i am talking about is a wave of minions, all with low hp because of a skill just used. You want to hit 1, 4 if you're lucky, but your adc specifically targets the one your aiming for. They can kill any of them, but they aim at your one out of instinct (cause they don't want you to steal it) so you aim at the next one, and the next one, but you get 0 because they attack faster than you, even though you would wave clear faster if you split your focus and hit different ones, so it's not about push speed, it's about selfish habbits of adc's that have been playing before the introduction of FoTM or play often with mage supports and forget that your not stealing but sharing.

I have actually saved charges of targons embrace for team fights and engages, because a well timed heal when the enemy flashes out of your melee range can give your adc that extra bit they need to win. I've saved lives with triple heal by killing minions (now I just play taric, it's easier) so timing and application of the item are important, but are hard if your adc isn't willing to work for you, they ALWAYS have the farming advantage, so it's not your own fault if they block you out

It Hertz When IPApr 21, 20151 votes

Thresh's AA is counted as ranged and therefore does not proc the execute feature on the Relic Shield items, only the gold sharing function, so he has a harder time last hitting charges than say Leona or Taric.

That being said, I agree with the rest of your post.

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

Oh, I don't play thresh, I just see him in action, fair enough, I post on these pages to learn anyway :D

Spacesuit SpiffApr 21, 20152 votes

Basically once the adc gets their BFS, or once you're hanging around mid, you're probably only getting any cs if they go out of their way to let you. And yeah, it gets frustrating to be at 4 stacks all game. I even see Leonas afk because of it once in a while (not that that's reasonable or anything). Riot should change the third form of that item, really.

BluePolarizerApr 23, 20151 votes

thats why you play a tank support with waveclear. Use your own waveclear to proc the stacks.

Spacesuit SpiffApr 24, 20151 votes

Nautilus with his W and E still won't get many of them, and you'll burn a ton of mana every time you try... if only the rank 3 shield procd off spells.

Silents429Apr 21, 20159 votes

{quoted}

As a support main, I ask: What do you want us to do?

We can't stay bot because we would be open to ganks. When we go mid, we will try to take the tower down to gain map control and have easier access to dragon. Yeah, it sucks that ADCs will usually take all the farm from the mid, but that's the fastest way to push.

Continue pushing and use wards. Hold the lane so you keep farming but the lane isn't pushing as crazy. You staying down there keeps bot down there. And if the jungler is trying to gank he is kept down there too giving us more map pressure.

Going mid and stealing CS from a mage isn't helping anyone, It doesn't matter if it pushes faster a split second to allow my AA animation to finish so I get the CS isn't a huge loss of time here and I don't have to get pissed that you guys decided to barge in my lane.

SolaxoApr 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Continue pushing and use wards. Hold the lane so you keep farming but the lane isn't pushing as crazy. You staying down there keeps bot down there. And if the jungler is trying to gank he is kept down there too giving us more map pressure.

Going mid and stealing CS from a mage isn't helping anyone, It doesn't matter if it pushes faster a split second to allow my AA animation to finish so I get the CS isn't a huge loss of time here and I don't have to get pissed that you guys decided to barge in my lane.

wards won't help you if your enemy is already cutting you off.

Silents429Apr 21, 20154 votes

They can't be cutting you off..? You have wards. By this point in the game the support would have a sightstone to easily give vision of the surrounding area.

Bane of IgnorancApr 22, 20151 votes

Nonsence. If we are pushing without a tower, it will take 5 wards to cover us. I can't lay 5 wards, and they expire. A common reason I need to be is that ai am OOW. You are not making sense, you are complaining about bot loosing lane.

I do not care to be permaganked, and not every support has the CC to escape a gank, like Karma, soraka, sona, Leona (not mobile), malphite.... Need I go on?

IcyPepperApr 24, 20152 votes

The adc can buy wards too...

WullfApr 21, 20151 votes

this jsut dont work

Yep if your team is good they can earn advantage from jungler, adc and supp being in bottom lane. And if so thats good.

But that is mostly not the case. Therfore it is safer and better for whole team just to push midlane and force something.

Silents429Apr 21, 20154 votes

It doesn't matter if your team is good if they are still pushing in lane they are going to benefit from not having another person barge into the lane. Go help your jungler take dragon or something.

WullfApr 21, 20151 votes

It does matter, Your midlaner will play psssively, your jungler will just farm in his jungle and toplaner will just farm. That is not enough.

If this situation is to be advanteous, your jungler will have to gang somewhere or counterjungle or go kill that damn dragon. Your midlaner will have to sieze the opportunity and get the kill or the tower with help of jungler or top laner. In other words, the team would have to work togheter.

Just pushing is too much to ask from your teammates in soloQ. And even so, "just pushing" is still not enough if enemy ADC gets triple and several waves advantage.

Silents429Apr 21, 20153 votes

If this situation is to be advanteous, your jungler will have to gang somewhere or counterjungle or go kill that damn dragon.

Wrong. Pushing your lane and gaining more pressure and control of the map, along with more CS and XP is going to be advantageous.

Your jungler is most likely going to do 1 of 3 of those, If he isn't getting dragon but you guys can easily secure it then go to the dragon and ping. If he needs farm then let him farm, all the laners rape his jungle mid/late game anyway.

Your midlaner will have to sieze the opportunity and get the kill or the tower with help of jungler or top laner.

Right. So leave them alone while they do that. The problem mid laners have is when the support and ADC come into lane and start taking farm and XP. Then they push the wave to the tower and the enemy mid laner defends it no problem. You are wasting everyones time. And only weakening your own midlaner.

Obviously come later into the mid game everyone is wandering and such but it is when the bot lane wins lane and instead of pushing there victory they decide to go mid and weaken the mid laner.

Just pushing is too much to ask from your teammates in soloQ. And even so, "just pushing" is still not enough if enemy ADC gets triple and several waves advantage.

Oh. Your whole scenario that you're giving me is basically, But what if my entire team is a bunch of monkeys? If you are in a team where every single person is dead set on farming and pushing lanes you weren't going to win anyway.

Now in a normal game where people aren't as braindead as you say. The 2 top laners will stay top until one of them has a tower.

Mid lane will usually keep priority on keeping their own tower and wander down river for a kill or helping in any way such as at the dragon or to help bot lane if they lose their own tower.

Jungler will either be ganking, farming, or securing dragon.

Now again, If you win your bot tower, and roaming hasn't started ward up and keep going. Do not go mid and pretend you are helping anyone but yourself by taking the CS from the mid laner, it is hard enough as it is to get CS during the lane phase we don't need you to take it from us. And keep the enemy pushed to their tower when you could be keeping pressure bot lane.

Eventually someone somewhere in top or mid is going to leave to deal with bot lane, in which case the proper reaction for the team is to take the tower.

But you might ask what happens if you get stomped bot lane? Don't go to the friggin mid lane. Farm under tower, As an ADC you should be trying to make yourself not be useless. Going mid is just going to put your mid laner at a loss because now they are falling behind in XP and CS because of greed.

Const the GingerApr 20, 201514 votes

It's not exactly a bot lane issue. Once a tower goes down both teams safety just disappeared. It's best to keep that tower up till another lane breaks down.

But, if mid tower goes down, then everyone is done farming.... just saying : p

Crede777Apr 20, 201513 votes

Alternately... Our tower goes down bot. Enemy ADC and support come mid while our support stays bot to hang around doing nothing while the ADC freezes the minion wave.

Free drag and mid tower for them, I guess.

ZmuecatApr 20, 20154 votes

Yup. I mean if mid wants a 3v1 or 4v2 then I'm sure me and the ADC would love to make free money.

Peel Your ADCApr 20, 20152 votes

If I could 1v2 or 1v3 as a mid, I'd just take bot lane and tell them to shove mid from the start.

Sadly Anivia needs to hit level 6.

WhiteGuyWannaBeApr 20, 20151 votes

Mid generally does have the best waveclear on the map though so while having the support come mid to help is nice, it is often quite practical for the ADC to remain bot to farm or even get tower should the enemy team be dumb enough to let them.

ZmuecatApr 20, 20152 votes

True. I think it also depends on how well the Mid players is handling themselves. If the tower is going to fall shortly, by all means bot should come and help, but if Mid is someone who is clearing the wave and preventing most, if not all damage, to the tower and herself, then bot lane should be trying to grab a tower.

Then there's the inbetween where the support does what you said.

I've had all three of these happen to me, it's almost like every game is different.

ApolloclipticApr 20, 20155 votes

You have to understand though (speaking as a support) as soon as the support leaves, bot adc will get ganked by like 3 guys, then rage rest of game about it. I once saved top from being overwhelmed (jungler was doing some farming, mid was hard pressed, enemy supp and jungle was top), I arrived as leona, saved the day with the group stun, secure two kills while the other escaped. My adc gets ganked by Mid lane (no ss ofc) "always alone, where's my support, rage rage rage"

As support you kind of feel the pressure to stay put, even if you're doing nothing, Personally I create a net of wards around where the adc is farming, but they still get lane ganks, and try to fight instead of run, so when the two who died top respawn and go bot, why is the adc pushing so deep alone anyway???

Now i'm raging lol, but yeah, don't blame the support, blame the adc for refusing to stay in the safe zones, giving the support the opportunity to roam

ZmuecatApr 21, 20152 votes

I understand, I've been a support player for years now. Eventually I just gave up somewhere and decided once bot lanes tower is down, if there's someone more deserving of what I can do that's where I'll be.

You'll be in the wrong regardless of what you do as Support or Jungle if you listen to everyones bitching, so you may as well go with what you think is the best.

JC DarkOmenApr 20, 20153 votes

No, alternatively shove bot as soon as you see your opponents come mid. The jungler can come help me. You get a free turret, and we keep our turret because my lane was doing fine, and with the jung it's a 2v3 under our turret. Even if their jungler comes, the ELO that just randomly groups mid without any reason doesn't have the balls to turret dive, so just hurry up and push the turret!

At all points in the game, you have to think about what you get out of your choices and what they get out of theirs. If everyone goes mid, nothing happens. If you take bot while they derp around mid, we get a turret. Let's say there's a teamfight and we wipe them all out... and then recall. Then those kills mean absolutely nothing because we didn't get an objective. I once won a game against a 44/4 Kat because her team would focus on teamfighting, win, then do nothing; after a while I just said "screw it, we're not gonna win a teamfight, so you might as well 4v5 while I just push bot". It doesn't matter how many people are where as long as you're getting something out of it, and a 4v4 mid just because one team took a turret bot is pointless. Just like the OP said.

Const the GingerApr 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=JC Da Beast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6mogHT5,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2015-04-20T20:00:16.341+0000)

No, alternatively shove bot as soon as you see your opponents come mid. The jungler can come help me. You get a free turret, and we keep our turret because my lane was doing fine, and with the jung it's a 2v3 under our turret. Even if their jungler comes, the ELO that just randomly groups mid without any reason doesn't have the balls to turret dive, so just hurry up and push the turret!

At all points in the game, you have to think about what you get out of your choices and what they get out of theirs. If everyone goes mid, nothing happens. If you take bot while they derp around mid, we get a turret. Let's say there's a teamfight and we wipe them all out... and then recall. Then those kills mean absolutely nothing because we didn't get an objective. I once won a game against a 44/4 Kat because her team would focus on teamfighting, win, then do nothing; after a while I just said "screw it, we're not gonna win a teamfight, so you might as well 4v5 while I just push bot". It doesn't matter how many people are where as long as you're getting something out of it, and a 4v4 mid just because one team took a turret bot is pointless. Just like the OP said.

You and op are speaking in specifics, telling bot lane to never come mid during specific instances and acting like their objective is clear cut. Many things go on during a game you don't even realize. Just because something specific hampers your experience doesn't mean you can command it away lol.

JC DarkOmenApr 20, 20152 votes

If it's a 4v4 mid, and top is still sitting on their island, what could possibly be going on in the game? We never said "never come mid", we're saying stop coming mid just because you lost your turret. Go bot and shove your lane. If there really is something else going on that we don't know about, then we wouldn't have a problem because we would have watched you help prevent it. Maybe you've never had this experience, but I have many, many, many times been chilling out mid, even winning my lane, then suddenly there's 6 extra people in lane and I lose my turret because our moron bot still thinks we can win and engages. My first deaths are usually after bot comes mid! And worst case scenario, instead of "Oh, I died and lost my turret, but at least we got bot turret" I'm left with "We died and I lost my turret because bot lane is freaking retarded"

djjomonApr 20, 20159 votes

This is what I hate about low elo. One tower goes down? Run mid. Won a teamfight at top inner? Minion wave pushing to top inhib tower? Baron just got taken by either team? Dragon's up? Run mid.

Whole team is dead and you just came up? Run mid.

Peel Your ADCApr 20, 20154 votes

They don't know what to do next

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is what I hate about low elo. One tower goes down? Run mid. Won a teamfight at top inner? Minion wave pushing to top inhib tower? Baron just got taken by either team? Dragon's up? Run mid.

Whole team is dead and you just came up? Run mid.

OMG I have been in this situation so many times. I main support so I can't backdoor or solo push like some champs, but I see mid locked in a stalemate, their top is pushed and we're about to lose bot turret because of a large minion wave "go mid go mid" no one thinks, let's take the top tower, or defend the bottom tower, they just stay mid. But the other team always knows better, they have someone peel off to defend their top, or TP bot to secure the pushed turret, but still all 5 of my team are dancing around mid tower looking for a chance to dive, and as support, if I leave I'm gonna get the abuse of the whole team

Sorry to rage, but my last game pissed me off the most. Idiots top and mid losing the game, but we were so ahead bot we pulled it back, in all, it was quite even. We took mid inhib, we took nexus towers, but instead of backing, Cho tries to take nexus alone, dies, jungle goes alone, dies, top goes alone dies, this repeats for about 10 minutes (YEs ten minutes after taking nexus turrets we still can't finish) but we've now lose our inhib turret, one inhib and turret, and I think they took another before retreating. Now everyone is running Baron

Baron then finish, baron then MID

Bot has a full Seige minions, top has normal minion wave with siege on the way. I was support taric, struggling to hold back the seige minions alone as everyone ran passed them to baron. While trying to take baron, we lost both nexus towers, and that was while I was defending them. Everyone flames me for losing the game, not realising that if i hadn't been stunning and healing minions, we would have lost the nexus before the baron fight even ended. I was so irritated by their ignorance, that they had been messing up all game, but blamed me for defending the nexus. In the end they lost the baron fight, but by the time the enemy reached our lane to finish, two waves of siege minions were already pummeling our nexus. Taric is good at defending, but it took two ultimates and a lot of peeling for the turrets to stop the first two waves, but when the top wave arrived I couldn't do anymore (ran out of mana and had to go base, that 5 second gap is how we lost nexus turrets)

SO yeah, noobs that only know how to run mid, to the point in which they threw for 10 minutes because they refused to wait for the team to go as one, so many situations where that happens but that time was the worst

It Hertz When IPApr 21, 20151 votes

That's why I shifted to supports that can dual function as AP carries. Vel'koz and Morgana perform wonderfully at freezing a wave defensively, as does Blitz's R if I stack CDR early.

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

Yeah, Vel support is one of my mains, but ONLY if we have two tanks OR if we have no AP champs elsewhere. Problem is, he can waveclear normal minions easily, but I've had to ultimate minions in the passed when the inhibs down because they are essentially tanks, and you struggle to stop them and they kill you quite fast!

That said, it's only happened like once, usually my team DOES help defend the turret if I am Vel or some other no damage support, I do remember a time where I was last pick, and everyone went ADC assassins (Zed, Shaco, Vayne, Fiora) or something similar. I had to decide between AP and tank. It was good I choose AP, the enemy tanks (shen and voli i think) didn't both build MR cause I was support, and were almost unkillable, but when i dropped an E, W , R the hp shred was marvelous, most damage on either team, just about pulled off a win with our terrible composition. Cause I just went full damage and sightstone lol

djjomonApr 21, 20152 votes

You understand my pain. Even though I'm not a support main, there's only so much anyone can do if the team insists making these plays, while you're the only thing keeping the team in the game

pE4CbxDPQOApr 20, 20158 votes

Yep. Quite annoying as a mid main.

Peel Your ADCApr 20, 20153 votes

We can stop the cycle!

ForgiveColourApr 20, 20153 votes

gotta share xp yo

JC DarkOmenApr 20, 20153 votes

Most of my games mid go great... until both teams randomly come to mid. Nothing was happening here! Go away! There's no kills to secure, we're not gonna get the turret, and your turret is still up! Plus, I can't farm when the guy with 3 times my AD is last hitting! GTFO!

Peel Your ADCApr 20, 20154 votes

The worst part about it is when no one listens to you at all. "Well since I don't get to farm in my own lane anymore, I'll just shove bot."

Team gets rekt is a 3v4 WHERE'D YOU GO GG

._.

Const the GingerApr 21, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=MONSTER ZER0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6mogHT5,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2015-04-20T22:54:48.231+0000)

so why is it, that when i made almost this same exact post like a month ago, i got 10 downvotes?

Honestly, I don't know why either of you would get upvotes. This whole thread is a huge lack of insight on how the game is played. You all think you're "learning up" bot lanes by telling them not to come mid and steal your farm. News flash, just because you want to 1v1 solo farm your lane longer, doesn't mean that's how the game should be played. There's 4 other people in the game. It's not black and white, there's no clear cut objectives. So many things can occur after a bot tower goes down.

And no one has been able to argue with the point I made about the opposite. There's been countless threads started where a mid laner complains that "after bot lane lost their tower, the enemy bot lane came mid, and my bot lane kept pushing, then I died 1v3 or 4 and lost my turret, then they got dragon, then they killed bot lane. HOW COME STOOPED BOT LANE NO HELP ME MID?"

Just because a bot lane comes mid, and nothing happens, doesn't mean it was a bad move. So you lost your solo xp and 2 waves of farm. I cannot tell you how many times I've pushed bot in that situation, thinking mid would be ok on tower clearing the waves and sitting back while the enemy wasted their time, only to watch him get hooked/pulled/charmed and killed. Then we're in a really bad spot pushing bot.

Not to mention with Teleport meta, warding deep jungle doesn't guarantee safety. There's just countless instances that going mid is right and wrong, and staying bot is right and wrong. This whole argument is illogical unless we're talking about ADCs sitting mid last hitting, purposefully stealing your farm, which is completely different.

[{quoted}](name=Kaosu Desu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6mogHT5,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2015-04-21T00:24:36.705+0000)

OP proves he has very little understanding of the game with this thread.

I agree with you there. I've been trying to explain how illogical this thread is, but no ones been able to prove to me otherwise. Just like every other cry thread, everyone looks over anyone that disagrees, and instantly "you don't even understand!" I dunno when having a different opinion ment you get downvoted either lol.

Angry MonsterApr 21, 20152 votes

Those that are upvoting the thread do not understand the long game. They are being really narrow and thinking this my lane and that i need to get full items to win. Sad really

What people need to understand is just cause you start in a lane for 10 minutes does not mean you should not adapt when situations change. Towers coming down is the play field changing. Some times the right call is to leave the ADC frozen to catch up when its your side the lost tower.

People that play league like its static are doing it wrong and just do not understand.

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

I think you're being almost as single minded here. They've said several times, it's not "NEVER" come mid, it's let him farm or don't linger. In most cases, the support should roam and the adc push. A stalemate mid doesn't help anyone, but it typically takes one less to defend then to attack. If support and mid defend, they can stop 4 champs from pushing depending on the match up, and if they lose sight of one or two of the champs, they ss and bot should immediately back up to safety. Most problems arise when bot come mid to help (especially because enemy bot went mid), but then bot STAYS mid after the enemy have backed off, and then lose bot turret because they had to go base while the fresh bot laners pushed. The other case is bot pushes too hard and gets ganked. it all comes to adaptability. The OP isn't wrong, in some ways neither are you, its not clear cut, but there are times where you don't sit mid, and there's times when you don't this post is getting upvoted by some, because they see his point, because he does clearly say, dont "not come mid" but let him farm or don't stay there indefinitely.

I posted before, as support, typically you go mid, with your cc you can defend if the others come, and your mechanics means you don't lose out but not farming, and the adc can push. If enemy goes bot, don't chase, push and secure mid. If adc can't escape, they get one kill, you get a turret. And jungler can come so you can still protect drake. But if you chase the adc who got TP ganked, chances are you will die one by one, not get mid turret or drake. If all 4 (excluding top) go mid. Jungler should help defend while adc stays bot to secure an objective. Unless mid engages (for some reason) they should be able to hold the turret, or worst case, lose in outer turret for an inner turret.

ADC's coming mid (outside of fast pushing - like after a big team fight) usually come for the kills, not to help. Mid and suppot can defend fine, but adc doesn't come for defence, but usually free farm and hopefully a tf = kill. But it often results in stalemate, for same reason, 2 can defend, and the enemy adc which was losing, now gets free farm bot...

The biggest problem with most players in these and many other scenarios is adaptability and stubbornness. They KNOW how to play, so they don't need to listen to others, the meta says drop bot tower, go drake, secure mid tower, etc, they don't change their game plan for the different game flows, and these discussions often go the same way.

Const the GingerApr 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think you're being almost as single minded here. They've said several times, it's not "NEVER" come mid, it's let him farm or don't linger.

i just got done explaining that "your" lane isn't your lane. It's a 5v5. If everyone is mid the cs is all the same. You don't get to decide how long you get to solo farm. That's not how the game works. I gave you reasons why bot going mid is a good thing and why bot staying bot is a bad thing.

Being called single minded by someone that really is single minded is a little awkward.

ApolloclipticApr 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Const the Ginger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6mogHT5,comment-id=001400020000,timestamp=2015-04-21T12:51:31.713+0000)

i just got done explaining that "your" lane isn't your lane. It's a 5v5. If everyone is mid the cs is all the same. You don't get to decide how long you get to solo farm. That's not how the game works. I gave you reasons why bot going mid is a good thing and why bot staying bot is a bad thing.

Being called single minded by someone that really is single minded is a little awkward.

First of all, you "singled out" the first part of my sentence and ignore the rest,

secondly you only argue one point, hence having one state of mind, hence single minded

I argued for both possibilities, hence I am Duo-minded, literally speaking, I have two states of mind on the topic and therefore CAN"T be Single minded

So now that i've gotten that out of the way, I can refute the rest of your statement.

5 v 5 mid is fine, but the scenario mentioned was 3 v 2, or 4 v 3. If you are "unsuccessful" at pushing the middle lane, (which is not "their" lane in the sense of ownership, but is "their" responsibility and "they" are held accountable when it loses), if you can't accomplish anything by staying mid BUT your opponent IS accomplishing something by moving around, then CHANGE your Single minded view, Because you are not talking about the team game, you are actually arguing for the ADC trying to own every lane. What you say and the point you get across are not the same.

If the ADC lingers (LINGERS) mid without successfully pushing, the are leaching XP AND Gold, so when they are forced to leave by the bot lane successfully pushing and farming, closing the score gold and XP difference, the middle laner, having not won his lane, is put at a disadvantage.

You clearly did not read my post, but stopped at the first line and made a reply. My post was not about ownership of a lane, or never going mid as I so clearly emphasis NEVER going mid, NOT being the discussion, the point was clearly ADAPTATION

It IS a team game, so stealing farm and xp mid is SELFISH not COOPERATIVE and I apologise for all the CAPITALS but you clearly didn't read what I said and I am using repetition to emphasis the points I ALREADY made.

So try reading my post properly if you intend to reply again, and see that I too gave examples of staying bot and going mid, but instead of SINGLE minded assertions of going mid being good and staying bot being bad, I ALSO explain how the scenario can be reversed, where going Mid is worse, and staying bot is better, where ideally, this is when you split up to truly push your advantage and capitalise on the ownership of the bottom half of the map, rather than thinking that "ALL MID" is the only single minded game play

Crede777Apr 21, 20153 votes

Allow me to reword the OP's point in a way which makes more sense: When bot lane takes the opponent's tower, their emphasis (and that of most junglers) switches from farming/ganking to objectives. The most pressing of these objectives is dragon. Taking bot tower opens up dragon to be taken by your team. If you are currently not in a position to take dragon, the 2nd most pressing objective is mid tower. By going mid and taking their tower, you further open up dragon.

This doesn't mean that mid's emphasis goes from farming to objectives. Instead, what you tend to have is a mid who is still in the laning phase while you have a support, ADC, and jungler who have moved on to the objectives and forcing favorable team fights (mid game) phase. If there is an opportunity to take mid tower, you absolutely should. But having 3 or 4 mid and NOT taking mid tower is an absolute waste of time and resources.

So if you take bot turret, you should look at drag. If drag isn't available, look to take mid turret. If you can't do that, then stay bot and farm as the opposing team SHOULD be pushing the lane back towards you.