If a champ has a 54.7% win rate with a 15.8% play rate and best on win rate of 61.6...

Irelia Bot·May 28, 2019·22 votes·12,153 views

Is said champ over powered?

Does it matter if their ban rate is 2.1% at this point?

65 Comments

NevrankroatonMay 28, 20199 votes

It is exactly what one of the Rioter was saying. He showed stats about some champions and didn't showed their name. Everyone agreed that Jinx's stats were warranty of a nerf, thinking it was vayne or riven. Riven had some high number that made people see a small nerf and I believe Vayne was actually fine (which made people quite tamed).

There is perception Vs facts (you could say reality), you pinpoint more easily your point of frustration that what is strong. It is easier to say "Vayne is too strong because she does a lot of damage on me" Vs "Jinx actually ate up 2 turret after one bad TF at the start of mid game". You notice when what you fear or dislike, aka "Vayne is gonna ult and duel me and kill me", is present Vs what you ignore/dont really mind (Jinx poking you with the bazooka stance and making you move back, her slowly chunking out your frontline, her destroying neutral objective or just making any turret melt).

Even if one is CLEARLY better/stronger, frustration is what people focus on.

Why do you think we get people making topic about their loosing streak or this bad game with an AFK and they never talk about the 10 games before where nothing special happened? Add to that confirmation bias and we are in for a loop.

If you wonder, Jinx don't get nerf because her proplay presence is abyssal atm (not an issue at very high elo too) and nobody complain about her. At the same time, people ban/hate fighting Draven while he doesn't nearly have the same stat as her. It is logical but funny.

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

At the same time, people ban/hate fighting Draven while he doesn't nearly have the same stat as her. It is logical but funny.

People ban Draven because they don't like getting hit by 1 axe + support poke and having to base at level 2.

Difference between Draven and Jinx is Draven actually has losing matchups and can be outscaled.

Jinx cannot.

You can make a Jinx go 0/8 but nvm she just finished item 3031 item 3085

"ENEMY IS LEGENDARY"

SaezioMay 28, 20192 votes

Meanwhile draven is the top pick for ADC in challenger,diamond and plat+...

I would like to see that rioter's video. Did he show complete facts ? or just winrate and pickrate?

ZardoMay 28, 20196 votes

I hate jinx so much. You can absolutely demolish her in lane, but the second she gets 2 items and an assist in a teamfight your team stands no chance whatsoever.

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20196 votes

{quoted}

I hate jinx so much. You can absolutely demolish her in lane, but the second she gets 2 items and an assist in a teamfight your team stands no chance whatsoever.

Yep.

I've seen 0/8 Jinx's get 2 items and click everyone to death.

MessyStuffMay 29, 20191 votes

Kind of an exaggeration but yeah. But there are champs that counter Jinx though. Nautilus,Vi, and Ashe all counter Jinx(pretty much anyone with long range cc). But if a Jinx goes 0/8, if you play a scaling champ you can have like 4 items by that time and still do more damage.

Daddy AntsMay 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Kind of an exaggeration but yeah. But there are champs that counter Jinx though. Nautilus,Vi, and Ashe all counter Jinx(pretty much anyone with long range cc). But if a Jinx goes 0/8, if you play a scaling champ you can have like 4 items by that time and still do more damage.

It's not an exaggeration if I've had it happen in games.

JamareeMay 28, 20195 votes

That's Jinx right?

Irelia BotMay 28, 201913 votes

{quoted}

That's Jinx right?

That is jinx

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jinx/

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6MzeMOi,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-05-28T03:48:34.984+0000)

That is jinx

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jinx/

Lolalytics was proven to be inflated on winrates back when Repertior released the data for those 5 specific champions on Twitter.

Try u.gg

But yes, Jinx is overpowered.

That's the consequences of throwing buffs around like Candy then reverting the crit items and not reverting said buffs.

Regardless of pro play presence, Jinx needs nerfs.

You can't justify a 54% win rate with that pick rate while having NO LOSING MATCHUPS.

I'm banning Jinx every chance I get.

ChaosReynMay 28, 20191 votes

honestly, she has losing matchups, they're just really freaking weak against everything else in the meta right now. Lucian for example destroys her...but Lucian gets dunked on by most single target assassins and any form of cc.

I'd argue Ashe can beat her too...but again, Zed glares in her general direction and she's dead...and Zed's not even a meta assassin right now.

Doesn't change your point of nerfing her any, but I thought I'd at least throw that in there.

ChrisBrownzeMay 28, 20194 votes

Where are you getting this data from? Just checked champion.gg plat+. Nobody matches this description.

Irelia BotMay 28, 201915 votes

{quoted}

Where are you getting this data from? Just checked champion.gg plat+. Nobody matches this description.

I stopped using champion.gg since their source data seems to be limited and their stats consistently prove to be highly subject to really vague interpretation.

Not saying lolalytics is perfect either but they seem to be at least more consistent with their information.

Linna ExcelMay 28, 20195 votes

I like using a mix of lolalytics and leagueofgraphs.

AbiwonKenabiMay 28, 20191 votes

Yeah, I always use multiple sources. Seems like everyone reports a slightly different statistic.

Sir SaltarinMay 28, 20191 votes

U.gg is the one that I use now

TehNACHOMay 28, 20191 votes

u.gg suffers from tiny sample sizes depending on which filters you use, so I'd be careful with that too.

AyzevMay 28, 20191 votes

lolalytics seems to inflate winrates though. I think when you filter out any ranks, the stats still include games where there were players of those filtered out ranks, it just checks whether there was someone of a not filtered out elo playing the champion whose stats you're checking. So when you have some low plat guy stomping an unfortunate low gold dude, that game is included when you look at plat+.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 28, 20194 votes

League of Graphs also says this is Jinx (stats are slightly off but they're close enough for a match).

SovereignMammalMay 29, 20191 votes

Jinx and Sivir. Can also throw Nami and Sona in there too.

ΤohruMay 28, 20194 votes

Yes, Jinx is borderline broken and should be nerfed. Though I'm not surprised she's not getting hit with anything because she's a very popular champion in the community. She's literally only recieved buffs for the past 3 seasons. Her last actual nerf was in patch 6.20 and that was just a minor nerf to her E. Other than that she's either recieved buffs, bug fixes or very minor stat adjustments (she recieved a nerf in patch 8.11 but that was a minor marksman update so I dont count it as an actual nerf to Jinx).

The same thing actually happened to Irelia a long time ago. The only difference is the fact that it never spawned a "better nerf jinx!" meme.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 28, 20193 votes

Yes. The champ is OP, then.

But it's not necessarily a bad thing. Clearly, despite those stats, nobody is complaining about this champion. Despite Jinx's strength, few people seem to mind that she's strong, since that banrate is more on-par with mind frustration from a few people and people banning counters.

Irelia BotMay 28, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Yes. The champ is OP, then.

But it's not necessarily a bad thing. Clearly, despite those stats, nobody is complaining about this champion. Despite Jinx's strength, few people seem to mind that she's strong, since that banrate is more on-par with mind frustration from a few people and people banning counters.

And said champ could get a small nerf and no one would really care outside of a few mains.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 28, 20191 votes

Maybe, but is the nerf really needed? If nobody seems to mind this champion being strong...Does it even matter if the champ is OP or not? As long as it's kept outside of being gamebreakingly strong, it'd seem fine to me.

A nerf would be fine, but is also probably unnecessary.

SuicidePlankMay 28, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Maybe, but is the nerf really needed? If nobody seems to mind this champion being strong...Does it even matter if the champ is OP or not? As long as it's kept outside of being gamebreakingly strong, it'd seem fine to me.

A nerf would be fine, but is also probably unnecessary.

I don't mind a strong ADC without a dash/invis/both for a change. You pick any assassin, you can fairly easy oneshot her. You pick GP and crit her Ass, she will die.

I take Jinx over Vayne/Kai'Sa/for some points Ezreal BS anyday.

Irelia BotMay 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I don't mind a strong ADC without a dash/invis/both for a change. You pick any assassin, you can fairly easy oneshot her. You pick GP and crit her Ass, she will die.

I take Jinx over Vayne/Kai'Sa/for some points Ezreal BS anyday.

And that supports the idea that ban rates outside of high Diamond to challenger are more often just a frustration removal than an actually over powered champ.

iDarkWindMay 28, 20195 votes

Except she can take item 3046 + item 3026 and remove that weakness in exchange for some damage. Perhaps in lower ranks people always go full AD crit even against assassins, but in higher elos she builds those two items, becomes very tanky and then you have a ranged tanky champion dealing AoE crits and getting massive movement speed and atk speed from the resets on her passive.

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20193 votes

8 seconds of being able to go invis, on a 100 second cooldown.

Yeah can't see her

Ionian VulpixMay 28, 20193 votes

If I still played, I'd be complaining about her. I hate everything about her and she was always unfun to play against as someone with shorter range than Fishbones.

General Esdeath May 28, 20193 votes

Jinx is always in and out of OP and weak

Her kit is pretty stat based as opposed to most marksmen

Ashe has utility in her E and R where a player needs to know when/how to use them Caitlyn has to utilize her traps, kiting, and max range Draven needs to play the early game well and snowball off of it, he has to know how to juggle axes and when to let one go to avoid a skill shot Ezreal all skill shots and power spikes Vayne has to be able to judge a fight and her short range plus small window of stealth

Jinx AA, AA, AA, snare them, AA, W for farm, AA, AA, AA, R a team fight

Linna ExcelMay 28, 20192 votes

I'm assuming you are talking about Jinx.

To be honest, even though a 54% win rate is borderline high for league, the fact that the champ is only a 2% ban rate means they aren't being toxic. If you want to compare apples to apples, Draven and Vayne can both be very powerful and both of them are at about a 24% win rate depending on the site. Even Ezreal and Kai'sa are more banned than Jinx. If we include supports in the bot lane ban list, morgana is at yasuo/zed levels of banning while nautilus, thresh, and pike are all over the 10% ban rate.

It's really hard for me to call a champ overpowered if it isn't getting banned. I mean if people would rather ban 4 other bot lane ADCs and another 4 supports before Jinx it means that they feel like they could play around her better and deal with her better than other options. If we look deeper at Jinx's win rate it seems like she wins hard in quick stomps that last 15 minutes but after that she falls off kinda quickly. So you can deal with her if you hang on.

Frankly there's always going to be a champ that's better than average. There's always going to be a champ with a better than 50% win rate. People don't seem to mind if it's Jinx so I'm fine if riot lets her be the best champ as a ADC. Also, I'd like to remind people that league players are hyper sensitive to high win rates. 54% in the bigger scheme of things isn't that huge. For a DnD player that'd be a DC of 11 and frankly that's no big whoop.

Irelia BotMay 28, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6MzeMOi,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-05-28T04:34:27.091+0000)

I'm assuming you are talking about Jinx.

To be honest, even though a 54% win rate is borderline high for league, the fact that the champ is only a 2% ban rate means they aren't being toxic. If you want to compare apples to apples, Draven and Vayne can both be very powerful and both of them are at about a 24% win rate depending on the site. Even Ezreal and Kai'sa are more banned than Jinx. If we include supports in the bot lane ban list, morgana is at yasuo/zed levels of banning while nautilus, thresh, and pike are all over the 10% ban rate.

It's really hard for me to call a champ overpowered if it isn't getting banned. I mean if people would rather ban 4 other bot lane ADCs and another 4 supports before Jinx it means that they feel like they could play around her better and deal with her better than other options. If we look deeper at Jinx's win rate it seems like she wins hard in quick stomps that last 15 minutes but after that she falls off kinda quickly. So you can deal with her if you hang on.

Frankly there's always going to be a champ that's better than average. There's always going to be a champ with a better than 50% win rate. People don't seem to mind if it's Jinx so I'm fine if riot lets her be the best champ as a ADC. Also, I'd like to remind people that league players are hyper sensitive to high win rates. 54% in the bigger scheme of things isn't that huge. For a DnD player that'd be a DC of 11 and frankly that's no big whoop.

As I have said before. Outside of high diamond to challenger, bans are often about frustration or commonality more so than actual strength of said champ.

Linna ExcelMay 28, 20191 votes

So even though she's winning a lot, she's not frustrating. That's a point in favor of keeping her the best ADC.

BTW, the only ADC I ever really consider banning is Twitch .

ChaosReynMay 28, 20191 votes

and why is that? Frustration?

Cait gets nerfed for frustration Vayne gets nerfed fucking finally for frustration Draven is nerfed for frustration...

but Jinx? She's actually busted and legitimately needs to be looked into?

I don't hear anyone, so I guess its k.

Linna ExcelMay 28, 20192 votes

Is she frustrating or does she just have a high win rate so people are accusing her of that just because of the win rate? If she was that bad from the beginning, she would have been banned more often before her win rate got to be where it is.

ChaosReynMay 28, 20191 votes

I agree with that. And that's exactly why I'm saying "let's just keep her overtuned" is stupid. If she's overtuned and not just frustrating, then she's fucking overtuned.

Twitch, you ban because he's annoying. Cait, you ban because she's annoying. Jinx, you ban because if you don't your adc is about to be fucking neutered by an overtuned hypercarry, and it's the whole Vayne conundrum all over again.

Linna ExcelMay 28, 20191 votes

This is why riot shouldn't nerf based on win rate alone.

Case in point: what if she is properly tuned (and the lack of bans suggest she might be) and it is the constant game of whack-a-mole that gameplay demands created the situation where her winrate rose as a consequence. Nerfing jinx now is just going to perpetuate the cycle: some other champ most people think is fine is going to be the new top win rate champ and people will start crying about that champ just because the number is warping their perceptions.

ChaosReynMay 28, 20191 votes

54.7% (almost 55%) is right next to the line of what Riot usually starts considering hotfixing people for. The fact that she steadily rose there is not "statistical whack-a-mole." Statistical whack-a-mole would be at like the 51-53% range. once you get to 55%, it's more akin to a mole that's not even playing the game anymore, but instead boldly staring you down and giving you the finger.

Z3SleeperMay 28, 20196 votes

Diamond+ bans are about banning counterpicks. Jinx isn't really a counterpick to anyone whereas Draven is.

Exception when something is blatantly overpowered like when jungle Karthus/Hec was obnoxiously strong (which is why Vayne is still getting bans, aftermath of previous buffs despite the nerf).

Another exception is simply frustration, it happens even in high elo. Noone wants to deal with the stupid ass Yi + Taric funnel comp.

3TWarriorMay 28, 20191 votes

Yasuo : -exists-

his ban rate is high anywhere. Vayne tends to be the same

Daddy AntsMay 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

: -exists-

his ban rate is high anywhere. Vayne tends to be the same

Neither Vayne or Yasuo are anywhere near overtuned right now.

Jinx is grossly overtuned.

3TWarriorMay 29, 20191 votes

I didn't mention overtuned. His ban rate is high regardless because his kit is frustrating to deal with and in the hands of a good player, very powerful

vayne was overtuned for months and is still very powerful

Sir SaltarinMay 28, 20191 votes

She's op on soloQ, yes

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6MzeMOi,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-05-28T10:49:57.779+0000)

She's op on soloQ, yes

She's been broken since 9.3 but people were too fixated on Vayne who was at a 51% win rate in 9.9.

Jinx broken for 7+ patches?

Hehe xd lets nerf the 51% win rate ADC who could actually match her late game.

https://i.gyazo.com/b9a20ba5ce75f17d4bfd20489b1f026c.png

She has 2 matchups that are hovering around the 49% mark.

I wouldn't call that losing matchups, I'd call them skill matchups tbh.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/jinx/build?rank=overall

SaezioMay 28, 20193 votes

thing is, I know if I play an assassin and I get kills early I can shut down the jinx in very distinct ways. I can't do that with vayne.

And vayne is supposed to be a really mechanically intense champion that has a slow learning curve and spikes hard late game. She was spiking at 2 items, and she should never be at 50% with such high pick rate. Oh, and btw, vayne top was in the top 3-4 picks for toplane. This should never be the case.

Sir SaltarinMay 28, 20191 votes

Oh, and btw, vayne top was in the top 3-4 picks for toplane

She wasn't tho, she wasn't meta warping on botlane and on toplane she was even worse than on botlane

SaezioMay 28, 20193 votes

She was. Check her toplane stats in like 9.3-9.6 or something between those. She even saw pro play in the top for pete's sake xD

We are talking diamond+ or at least plat+ I hope.

Daddy AntsMay 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

thing is, I know if I play an assassin and I get kills early I can shut down the jinx in very distinct ways. I can't do that with vayne.

And vayne is supposed to be a really mechanically intense champion that has a slow learning curve and spikes hard late game. She was spiking at 2 items, and she should never be at 50% with such high pick rate. Oh, and btw, vayne top was in the top 3-4 picks for toplane. This should never be the case.

Vayne doesn't warp bot lane when she's strong.

She still has losing matchups.

Jinx right now has no losing matchups and outscales every other ADC.

SaezioMay 28, 20192 votes

LOL I just remembered who you are xD. I ve seen your vayne that's why you think she doesn't warp the botlane. It's the player that is the problem in your case buddy.

ChaosReynMay 28, 20191 votes

Vayne was designed as a late game hyper carry and she was spiking off two items (ok...lets be fair, she was primarily spiking off gunblade, but the second item made it 1v5 worthy)

It took Riot several patches to admit "ok, gunblade is making Vayne op" and they nerfed the item. Now she's in a slightly better place (though I still think the ultimate making her Q spam like URF mode is bullshit)

I honestly think the next item they need to look at (in order to handle Jinx as well as a couple other problem champions) is PD. I use a similar type of build on Cait - I'll still rush IE, but then I'll build PD into Edge of Night (instead of GA, cause the lethality almost covers the damage gap and I can spellshield if I see the diver coming in) and it can get pretty scary. The issue is that Jinx is a hypercarry, so when she does this, she may as well be Vayne 2.0, whereas on my Caitlyn, I'm doing to reach a point where my damage depends far more on my positioning and not dying than it does on Jinx and her "I simply kill you before you kill me" state at the moment.

I don't wanna have her kit damaged all that much...but as I mentioned, PD is used on a lot of other champions with similar effect. Yasuo rushes PD - the second he finishes it, his dueling potential goes from mediocre to "oh shit, he's coming for me!" and his teamfight potential gets way worse once he gets IE. Zed uses it - you already can't hit him, but now if you do it doesn't matter. It was imo the prime factor in how frustrating it was to fight AD fizz before they nerfed his AD to oblivion for the same reason it's frustrating on Zed - even if you hit him, it didn't matter. I've even seen it coming up on a couple top laners recently (though that might just be some low elo "wtf" moments) and it seems to overall help people like Gnar, Jayce and Kennen pretty well.

Issue is, I really don't know how I'd go to balance it, or if it necessarily needs balanced...but I'd say it's at least worth noting that it should be suspect tested. If it's Jinx, then it's Jinx. If its PD, then nerfing the item will solve several cases (also note: I am well aware all those examples of PD aren't even that high a WR, but since we're talking frustration factors too, I brought up the typical frustrating champs that tend to use it)