Assassins don't need skillshot gapclosers, part 2 (more detail)

XinZhao2WinNhao··1 votes·335 views

Assassins Don’t need Skillshot Gapclosers, Part 2

The issue many people are worried about: People want to make assassins better in higher elo and higher skill brackets as assassins have a reputation of being a “noob stomper”. People try to make them more high skill by suggesting adding skillshot gapclosers, but I think that would make them even worse in higher skill brackets where team coordination will shut them down almost immediately and adding the skillshot would probably make it even worse for the assassin. I believe that adding skillshot gapclosers is not the way to make assassins better in higher skill brackets.

So, yesterday, I made a post about assassins and skillshot gapclosers, and I got a lot of replies about a lot of different kinds of skillshots that could be possible gapclosers for assassins, but I still feel there is a lot of problems with those that would make them good gapclosers for ranged champions, certain melee tanks/bruisers, etc, but not for most assassins. This post will be more detailed and list all the kinds of possible skillshots they suggested and possible cons with why I feel they don’t fit most assassins (there are some assassins that are perfectly balanced around having those skillshots and are fine with them, but I feel most assassins don’t work well with them).

Types of Gapcloser Skillshots:

Lee Sin Q type. Example: Lee Sin Q (duh, lol) Possible issues: -hard to access carry during teamfights when blocked by minions and enemy tanks -can hit minions, which make it harder for the assassin to get to a champion -even if it can’t hit minions, tanks can still body-block -This is why Lee Sin isn’t very viable as an assassin in competitive play and is built almost always bruiser

Area-Targeted. Example: Aatrox Q Possible issues: -Too much AOE damage for certain assassins (?) -Very little sticking power to stick to a target -free escape, too OP?

A dash that passes through targets Example: Renekton’s E Possible issues: -Deals too much damage to other stuff along the way -passes through target instead of sticking to target -free escape, too OP?

A dash that stops at first champion hit Example: Vi’s Q Possible issues: -Tanks can body block -Doesn’t transition very well into an AA. Whenever I use Vi’s Q, it seems like dash, then abrupt weird stop at champion, then AA or E. Targeted dashes like Xin’s E doesn’t provide that problem, it seamlessly transitions into either an AA or a Q. -Hard to control which champion you’re going to end up targeting (related to my first point)

A skillshot projectile before a targeted dash Example: Diana’s Q -> R I like this about Diana a lot. I also think this would be good for many champions and I wouldn’t mind if some more champions had this. However, I don’t think every single assassin needs this. (I also don’t think every assassin needs to have some sort of skillshot.) But this is a good idea. This is why I like to play Diana. Out of all the possible skillshot possibilities for an assassin, this one seems like the best since it allows the assassin to still be able to dash even if you miss, but you lose a high portion of the burst, so it punishes you for missing but doesn't make you completely useless.

Stops at last champion hit Example: Leona’s E Possible issues: -Hard to control exactly which champion you want to target, especially if the target is in the middle of the crowd.

Overall, the issues with most skillshot gapclosers: -Main issue: poor sticking power to the target, while this is okay for bruisers and can actually be good for the balance of some bruisers to prevent them from becoming OP, for assassins its different. Poor sticking power = bad, maybe even useless, assassin. -Hard to control which champ you are going to end up targeting, which also makes an assassin unviable as assassins are meant to choose targets -While some bruisers (ex. Aatrox, Renekton), can usually afford to miss their main target due to sheer tankiness, other abilities which are usually AOE, etc, and can still contribute somewhat, albeit less, to a teamfight, so hitting the skillshot would help them a bit and missing would hurt them a bit, but not make them completely useless. If an assassin misses, they’re practically useless for the cooldown of the gapcloser, by then the teamfight could be over. This dependence on hitting a skillshot makes a champion really binary. -Some of these skillshots give the assassin a free escape which makes them too OP if they were originally meant to be an all in high-risk assassin.

Post your comments below, but remember this is a serious post. While replying to some of my GD posts with “lol bronzie” might be less annoying/even a bit funny, I do hope for more serious and well thought out replies here as I do have experience playing assassins and care about the state of assassins. Between this account and my smurf, I think that I have definitely played over 1000 games as assassins, and as an assassin main for quite a while I do hope I get a better reply than just “lol bronzie”. This is almost 1000 words, and I spent my time writing this, please at least be respectful enough to either give a constructive opinion or just not post. Also, if you are one of those people who just hate assassins and are biased against them like the “just delete assassins” people, please look at this objectively. Don’t think of yourself as the adc getting killed by an assassin but think of yourself as someone who plays both adc/mage and assassins and cares about balance for both the assassin and the carries they target. Note that us assassin mains don’t want assassins to be OP either, because then they get banned and we won’t be able to play them anymore. We want them to be well-balanced.

8 Comments

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

bump

jDVL20eCYs1 votes

bump

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

60 views and no replies? C'mon, someone say something

Sire Hippington1 votes

Lee Sin Q type: obviously not good for assasins

Area-Targeted: why would it be to much aoe damage? you don't have to but high numbers on it, if any at all. The stickiness would depend on having aditional tools like ms-buff or slows. Getting an escape is more a good thing. One of the reasons why Talon or Diana are rather feast or famine is that they lack tools to get away from fights that they son't want. An obviouse way in reduceing the defensive use case is haveing a high cd on it and some cd-reduce mechanics tied to agressive actions. The only real problem i see with this kind off skills is that they are rather clunky, you need a kinda windup animation, a jump-curve, and mostly some kind of landing animation, else it will feel odd. Unless you can queque up your combo in flight like old Kah did, it will be kinda clunky, as current kah is. And even if it can work gameplay wise, it doesn't fit all that well thematically for most assasins.

A dash that passes through targets: Aoe and escape: see above. If used right, it get you right in the position you want to pull off your burst combo, and unlike the target aoe, you can also have pretty fast animations without 'landingtime' while still 'feeling right', so quite great for assasins.

A dash that stops at first champion hit: same problem as Lee's Q

Stops at last champion hit: Only problematic if the target is in the middle of a close crowded team, which should be the usuall counterplay to assasins anyway and is a problem for assasins rgardless of the type of gapcloser.

-Main issue: poor sticking power to the target, while this is okay for bruisers and can actually be good for the balance of some bruisers to prevent them from becoming OP, for assassins its different. Poor sticking power = bad, maybe even useless, assassin.

I think you confuse Assasins with Bruisers in their playstyle and purpose. An assasin doesn't need to stick to a target, it just needs to get close long enough for the burst combo, which usually is a rather short timeframe. If anything, they need a low cd on their gapcloser, or a second one, so they can get close a second down once the CDs of their burst are off to finish off the target. Bruisers however thrive in constant dps, they need to stick to a traget consistently to put down their dps, it's not enough for them to just get close once.

-Hard to control which champ you are going to end up targeting

Thats prettymuch the point off giving them skillshot-gapclosers, to make their target selection more skill dependend. I honestly have not much truble getting on to the target of my choice as Aatrox or Renekton(unless the likes of Allistar or Janna get invlolved), provided it is in range of course. Giving poeople the chance to avoid an assasination atemt on their own, takeing away reliabillity, it introduces a weakness that allows to give asassins other strengths like an escape.

It watters down the high risk, high reward thing, and that is imortant imo. If the risk-reward is going to extreme, it is unhealthy for the game. Take talon as example, if he get's going, he one-shots any squishy that comes in range within a sec, becoming unbearable to play against, If he doesn't get going, he can hardly do anything, becoming a liabillity for his team. Either way, the game get's rather unfun for 50% of the players.

Keep in mind that this comes from an Assasin player that mained full off sololane pant last season, one of the most extreme high risk, high reward champs ever.

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6A0e0eu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-03T21:59:54.630+0000) I think you confuse Assasins with Bruisers in their playstyle and purpose. An assasin doesn't need to stick to a target, it just needs to get close long enough for the burst combo, which usually is a rather short timeframe. If anything, they need a low cd on their gapcloser, or a second one, so they can get close a second down once the CDs of their burst are off to finish off the target.

Bruisers are there to fight with their team, so if they don't stick to one target in the teamfight they can still deal overall damage to the whole enemy team. Assassins need to stick to one target to take them out. Imagine if Fiora can't stick to a target, she'd suck (I know fiora is labeled fighter, but who really builds her fighter with 1 or 2 dmg items and 3 tank items?, she's an assassin to me)

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V6A0e0eu,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-03T21:59:54.630+0000)

Area-Targeted: why would it be to much aoe damage? you don't have to but high numbers on it, if any at all. The stickiness would depend on having aditional tools like ms-buff or slows. Getting an escape is more a good thing. One of the reasons why Talon or Diana are rather feast or famine is that they lack tools to get away from fights that they son't want. An obviouse way in reduceing the defensive use case is haveing a high cd on it and some cd-reduce mechanics tied to agressive actions. The only real problem i see with this kind off skills is that they are rather clunky, you need a kinda windup animation, a jump-curve, and mostly some kind of landing animation, else it will feel odd. Unless you can queque up your combo in flight like old Kah did, it will be kinda clunky, as current kah is. And even if it can work gameplay wise, it doesn't fit all that well thematically for most assasins.

That's why Talon and Diana are Talon and Diana though. That's why they have to pick their fights carefully because if they pick the wrong one they can't just say "let's turn back time and go back to the way it was" (I'm talking to you, Ekko ). They are punished for entering wrong fights like assassins should be

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

They can have a skillshot somewhere else in their kit, but I think that their gapcloser should be targeted as an assassin

Diana is a good example

If their too dependent on landing one skillshot to do anything (like Lee Sin if he were built full assassin), it'd be binary/boring

XinZhao2WinNhao1 votes

If you give them a skillshot dash that can be a free escape, their damage would have to be nerfed, and that's not good for many assassins that need their damage to, well, assassinate.

Like Kassadin was nerfed in his damage because of his ult being a skillshot free escape, but it's okay because that's the way Kassadin was played.

But think of Talon getting that he'd be useless

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