Please explain to me clearly and politely what is so wrong with ability based fighters/assassins?

Hammermancer·Apr 8, 2019·9 votes·8,293 views

the champs in question are always the subject of a lot of hate, some of the champs in this category are never really raged at but they're still in the pool

I probably missed a few but I'm specifically referring to the ones who don't spend much of their time doing nothing but right clicks, and i'm not referring to full on juggernauts either

the right clicking champs would be

I've always played these hated champs, i find it fun to play against these champions. From my perspective and the perspective of many of their mains the idea is to play the game like street fighter, there is a lot of cross champ respect in their communities. the idea of outplaying someone on these champions is definitely appealing to many within their fanbases too. The idea is pretty simple, use your utility correctly, get your cancels done right, and don't let them land a hit, fight til someone is dead. They involve a higher than average time investment usually just to get their combos down and can all defeat eachother with a level of reliability based on the ability of the player to use his champions kit. I always see hate posts about them, people seem to hate dealing with them on other classes and generally call for gutting the more enjoyable aspects of them then anything else without compensation.

I'd love to know what that reasoned complaints with this playstyle as a whole is. what could be done to fix them or even what could be done to the other classes to bring them into line with that mindset (If it's even desirable). I'd also like to know if people understand what draws players to these champions as such diehard onetricks.

62 Comments

MakarakarnApr 8, 201911 votes

Well as you pointed out, the usually have a higher time investment to learn. The other side of that coin is that they also have to take time to learn how to play against them. People are too lazy to do so however, so they just end up thinking the champion broken and has no counterplay.

qabboyApr 8, 20192 votes

This kids wrong. The reason people hate the above champions is because of there damage potential in comparison to champs that can land the same amount of abilities for less damage with either a higher cooldowns or b higher mana costs. Therefore they are unable to do anything because of this.

cars3nApr 8, 20195 votes

Of course ability based fighters are going to do more with their abilities compared to auto attack fighters. Because auto attack fighters do more with their auto attacks.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well as you pointed out, the usually have a higher time investment to learn. The other side of that coin is that they also have to take time to learn how to play against them. People are too lazy to do so however, so they just end up thinking the champion broken and has no counterplay.

I mean i've definitely experienced instances of things without counterplay between champions, is it possible these champions are tuned within their own little sphere to eachother? I usually see mage and adc mains as their biggest critics, though these fighters have had plenty of times in their history where tank metas made them pretty near useless as well. For example a few times maokai was pretty strong and it was near impossible to defeat him using these champs because his innate tank stats combined with his self resoration were both overbuffed to the point of actual inability to defeat. If that is true of these champs towards adcs and mages the issue comes down to how their utility interacts with these adcs and mages right?

I can't imagine it being about the 1shots since at this point almost everyone is 1shotting eachother. so it must be the utility, which to me is why i enjoy the champs. Though if there isn't counterplay i'd have to ask what could be done to keep the utility but make it combatable by other classes. Would it be a matter of item actives that allow for an adc to actually ward off a charging riven? Zhonyas has an immensely useful effect against assassins, as does the active escape of protobelt.

MakarakarnApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean i've definitely experienced instances of things without counterplay between champions, is it possible these champions are tuned within their own little sphere to eachother? I usually see mage and adc mains as their biggest critics, though these fighters have had plenty of times in their history where tank metas made them pretty near useless as well. For example a few times maokai was pretty strong and it was near impossible to defeat him using these champs because his innate tank stats combined with his self resoration were both overbuffed to the point of actual inability to defeat. If that is true of these champs towards adcs and mages the issue comes down to how their utility interacts with these adcs and mages right?

I can't imagine it being about the 1shots since at this point almost everyone is 1shotting eachother. so it must be the utility, which to me is why i enjoy the champs. Though if there isn't counterplay i'd have to ask what could be done to keep the utility but make it combatable by other classes. Would it be a matter of item actives that allow for an adc to actually ward off a charging riven? Zhonyas has an immensely useful effect against assassins, as does the active escape of protobelt.

No unfed champion exists without counterplay. Yes, as a champion gets way more ahead of you, there's less and less you can do to stop them. However notice how I said "a champion" and not "a champion from the few you mentioned". Because quite honestly, that's how snowballing works every champion. Perhaps a better way to word my previous statement is "These kind of champions are easier to lose to, because they are harder to overcome without employing counterplay". Because as it is, despite this being a strategy game, loads hate employing strategy and simply try to brute force their way to a win.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No unfed champion exists without counterplay. Yes, as a champion gets way more ahead of you, there's less and less you can do to stop them. However notice how I said "a champion" and not "a champion from the few you mentioned". Because quite honestly, that's how snowballing works every champion. Perhaps a better way to word my previous statement is "These kind of champions are easier to lose to, because they are harder to overcome without employing counterplay". Because as it is, despite this being a strategy game, loads hate employing strategy and simply try to brute force their way to a win.

I mean I always imagined my list as sort of the marriage between the two, when fighting eachother it does take a lot of tactical knowhow and whatnot to actually deal with eachother, there's the ability bait dancing that is a constant thing while trying to time damage reduction/mitigation, engage sticking, and disengages for cooldowns and that's all without the interrupts and whatnot.

So general consensus is that they're inherrently imbalanced due to having too much agency? Would it be better to systematically remove that agency or to actively work towards increasing agency across the board on other champs?

I mean various mages, supports, and adcs do have the ability to tango with the mentioned champs though they definitely might struggle depending on the matchup. Lucian or ezreal definitely have a better time against irelia than Draven or Ashe for example

The EcdysiastApr 8, 20197 votes

You perfectly showcased the problem with your explanation of why you like them. You're comparing it to an arcade-style fighting game when it's actually one-sided.

The problem with them is that they have the versatility to feel like you're outplaying someone, but in reality it's because your opponents lack that versatility.

For example, you might feel like you did a really sick, skillful play when you're Zed vs. Lux and W -> R her to dodge her Q and get behind her during her ultimate, but she never had the options to avoid you in the first place.

I hope that makes sense.

I personally like this style of champion, too. It makes for a more fun, interactive duel-- when you're fighting another champion of this style. So the solution would be to continue making new champions and reworks more ability-focused. It would bring the overall difficulty of the game up, but would also make for more engaging duels.

btw, Xin Zhao would be included as a right-clicker, not an ability-based fighter

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-08T22:08:19.084+0000)

You perfectly showcased the problem with your explanation of why you like them. You're comparing it to an arcade-style fighting game when it's actually one-sided.

well when it's two of them facing eachother it really is the fighting game.. at least in the fight, the rest of the game is Macro but the fight is super intensive on Micro. But i'm definitely starting to get a better picture here, i've definitely been in the fighter/assassin outplay bubble for a few years (Whoops)

The problem with them is that they have the versatility to feel like you're outplaying someone, but in reality it's because your opponents lack that versatility.

For example, you might feel like you did a really sick, skillful play when you're Zed vs. Lux and W -> R her to dodge her Q and get behind her during her ultimate, but she never had the options to avoid you in the first place.

I hope that makes sense.

It definitely does, I think the part that had me confused is, let's say you're that zed and the lux is a 1 mil mastery otp, you feel vindicated because you know she's lethal with those snares and you're basically playing "Dodge the musket" which amounts to, if she lands the hit you die, if you dodge the hit she dies.

BUT applying that same scenario to an ashe who only has one shot to stun you with a much worse cooldown... Yeah i totally get it now.

I personally like this style of champion, too. It makes for a more fun, interactive duel-- when you're fighting another champion of this style. So the solution would be to continue making new champions and reworks more ability-focused. It would bring the overall difficulty of the game up, but would also make for more engaging duels.

Maybe just kick them out of the main game and shove them all into a fighty mode XD (That's a half joke, i kinda want a mode for these champs though just like an arena or something.. could be draven themed)

btw, Xin Zhao would be included as a right-clicker, not an ability-based fighter

Ahh, i thought his rework got him to be more duel ability and reaction based, maybe i misunderstood it and gave too much respect to those xin mains :P

The EcdysiastApr 8, 20194 votes

the lux is a 1 mil mastery otp, you feel vindicated because you know she's lethal with those snares and you're basically playing "Dodge the musket" which amounts to, if she lands the hit you die, if you dodge the hit she dies.

See, that's another example of the fact it only feels like you're outplaying someone. Unlike Zed, she can't change the angle her attacks are coming from with a shadow. You always know they're going to come from her model. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 million, 100 million, or 1000 mastery Lux, she has one and only one combo. That may make her easier to learn, but the downside is that she has no other options.

It's almost entirely up to you being the one to make a mistake. She has to be psychic with her timing to catch you, since you always have the option to not pop yourself to the shadow even if she throws the Q at it.

You have way more options, like a character in a fighting game. Meanwhile the opponent only has one, extremely predictable course of action. You're not really outplaying them, because they never had the options to combat your advantages in the first place.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T22:44:57.966+0000)

See, that's another example of the fact it only feels like you're outplaying someone. Unlike Zed, she can't change the angle her attacks are coming from with a shadow. You always know they're going to come from her model. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 million, 100 million, or 1000 mastery Lux, she has one and only one combo. That may make her easier to learn, but the downside is that she has no other options.

It's almost entirely up to you being the one to make a mistake. She has to be psychic with her timing to catch you, since you always have the option to not pop yourself to the shadow even if she throws the Q at it.

You have way more options, like a character in a fighting game. Meanwhile the opponent only has one, extremely predictable course of action. You're not really outplaying them, because they never had the options to combat your advantages in the first place.

so yeah it comes down to other classes not having enough agency, which is something I'd honestly love to see.

I know people want nerfs for the champs I love, but I only want buffs for their champs.. so long as those buffs are in the form of situational utility and not just purely raw stat increases. I would love to see what malphite would look like with a more complex and spread out kit, or what riot could come up with for the general mage. I would love to be outplayed by all of these champions as opposed to just stuck between the stat blocks, but at the same time, I would argue that if my champ can 1v3 with proper positioning and mechanics, all champs, based on the skill of their pilot, should have that capacity too.

The EcdysiastApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

so yeah it comes down to other classes not having enough agency, which is something I'd honestly love to see.

I know people want nerfs for the champs I love, but I only want buffs for their champs.. so long as those buffs are in the form of situational utility and not just purely raw stat increases. I would love to see what malphite would look like with a more complex and spread out kit, or what riot could come up with for the general mage. I would love to be outplayed by all of these champions as opposed to just stuck between the stat blocks, but at the same time, I would argue that if my champ can 1v3 with proper positioning and mechanics, all champs, based on the skill of their pilot, should have that capacity too.

That's what I said in the first comment. The only way to fix it without cutting the versatility of these champions would be to make their opponents more versatile.

And I, too, would be all for that. Hell, I really hope that's the angle they'll be going for with the Mordekaiser rework.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T22:55:45.285+0000)

That's what I said in the first comment. The only way to fix it without cutting the versatility of these champions would be to make their opponents more versatile.

And I, too, would be all for that. Hell, I really hope that's the angle they'll be going for with the Mordekaiser rework.

thanks for the insight, so fighter master race needs to uplift the world

VoraciousXApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T22:44:57.966+0000)

See, that's another example of the fact it only feels like you're outplaying someone. Unlike Zed, she can't change the angle her attacks are coming from with a shadow. You always know they're going to come from her model. It doesn't matter if it's a 1 million, 100 million, or 1000 mastery Lux, she has one and only one combo. That may make her easier to learn, but the downside is that she has no other options.

It's almost entirely up to you being the one to make a mistake. She has to be psychic with her timing to catch you, since you always have the option to not pop yourself to the shadow even if she throws the Q at it.

You have way more options, like a character in a fighting game. Meanwhile the opponent only has one, extremely predictable course of action. You're not really outplaying them, because they never had the options to combat your advantages in the first place.

Disagree because a Zed has to play just as careful vs a Lux as a Lux has to play vs a Zed. Zed ALWAYS appears behind the target when he ults them. This means Lux can ALWAYS hit him with a Q when he ults. Q, flash the shuriken combo, Zed's dead. Zed can't pop back to another shadow if he's rooted, and if the Lux aimed a Q at him before he ulted, she's probably going to be an idiot. I'm not arguing that Zed doesn't have options, but every champion has options. The only difference is what those options are. Mages make it a game to get to them. They stay far back but also can damage you from far back. This makes it a challenge to get to them in most situations. A long range mage shouldn't be having dashes or anything like that, because their goal is to never let anyone near them. At the same time, the champions mentioned are melee and would never get to the Lux, or the Xerath, etc without those dashes.

The EcdysiastApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Disagree because a Zed has to play just as careful vs a Lux as a Lux has to play vs a Zed. Zed ALWAYS appears behind the target when he ults them. This means Lux can ALWAYS hit him with a Q when he ults. Q, flash the shuriken combo, Zed's dead. Zed can't pop back to another shadow if he's rooted, and if the Lux aimed a Q at him before he ulted, she's probably going to be an idiot. I'm not arguing that Zed doesn't have options, but every champion has options. The only difference is what those options are. Mages make it a game to get to them. They stay far back but also can damage you from far back. This makes it a challenge to get to them in most situations. A long range mage shouldn't be having dashes or anything like that, because their goal is to never let anyone near them. At the same time, the champions mentioned are melee and would never get to the Lux, or the Xerath, etc without those dashes.

Did you really just try to use "always" and "flash" as an argument for a champion being more difficult?

Remind me, when did they put Zed's ultimate on a 300 second static cooldown? Oh right, never.

VoraciousXApr 9, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-09T07:19:45.319+0000)

Did you really just try to use "always" and "flash" as an argument for a champion being more difficult?

Remind me, when did they put Zed's ultimate on a 300 second static cooldown? Oh right, never.

You don't HAVE to flash, it's just one way of dealing with it. There's also Zhonya's and exhaust. I gave you one possible scenario, not the "EVERY SCENARIO" scenario. You're also using my "always" inappropriately, as I said Zed always appears behind his target, thus Lux can ALWAYS hit him with Q. The only scenario in which Lux could not hit a Q on Zed when he ults her is if she used it already, and she'd be a fool to do that.

The EcdysiastApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You don't HAVE to flash, it's just one way of dealing with it. There's also Zhonya's and exhaust. I gave you one possible scenario, not the "EVERY SCENARIO" scenario. You're also using my "always" inappropriately, as I said Zed always appears behind his target, thus Lux can ALWAYS hit him with Q. The only scenario in which Lux could not hit a Q on Zed when he ults her is if she used it already, and she'd be a fool to do that.

The point was that Zed has far more versatility than a champion like Lux. And that is a fact.

So your argument is any Lux who tries to Q Zed is fool. Meanwhile, any Zed who tries to ult Lux when her Q is up is a fool. See how that means nothing?

OrbvApr 9, 20191 votes

Exhaust is still a summoner spell on a much higher CD than Zed's ult and very few Mids will take Exhaust unless they specifically know they are up against Zed. And Zhonya's is not a quick buy.

The main problem is that, if both champions are Item-less and Summoner-less, Zed still has more options for his gameplay and will outpoke and bully Lux out of lane. She can poke...continuously. But he can Poke, He can Dive, He can just farm safely without worrying about Mana Regen. He's a significantly more versatile champion than Lux.

GFREEMENApr 9, 20195 votes

issue with most of then is that they have abilities that hare high damage, low CD and then also have high damage Auto attacks.

Its all about Button presses per second and attacks per second.

These champs all have high numbers in both.

GigglesOApr 9, 20191 votes

It goes a little further that they tend to also have mobility and or CC which helps them either make it so you don’t get to leave or they can freely disengage. Sometimes even both.

HammermancerApr 9, 20191 votes

There's definitely a large issue here that needs to be rectified, do you see a way to reconcile their playstyle with the rest of the roster without effectively gutting them and their playstyle?

TMek7Apr 9, 20192 votes

IMO with some of those champs in the pool their 'risk' is usually something mechanical like whether or not they burnt their escape tool securing the kill while I feel their 'risk' should be more so about being in the middle of the enemy team trying to get that kill, regardless of if they have an escape available or not.

If assassins/pick-champs can exploit an opponent who's out of place. Surely they should have general risk of being out of place/isolated by even standard damage classes.

And with those fighters, they tend to be fairly durable while not really having any downtime. It's a counter from being out-ranged so they need to make up for it with being really good if they catch champs in melee range.

From the pool, I feel like they usually either generate too much pressure for an opposing team or don't present the opponents enough of their risks.

Here's an example, as Zed you can WR in use abilities etc, then warp back to your furthest away shadow. If you kill then thats one less enemy (usually the carry too) to be able to attack you, if you don't then you've probably damaged them a fair bit and gotten away. Yes you could be CCd to death but thats pretty much any champ.

Where's his risk? his kit is designed for his playstyle so there isn't really any risk there. You can't really be kited as a melee since you're already on top of the target. You can usually kill and/or escape before their team can unload all of their damage onto you, and if theyre saving their ultimates for other key targets then thats even less punishment.

The counterplay there is Zed would be forcing most of the opponents team into wasting resources, and his main weakness is either super hard peeling or for the carry to essentially leave the fight for a bit. I don't have an answer but the problems are fairly obvious IMO

FrozenFrostFyreApr 8, 20194 votes

Nobody likes dying on 0.1seconds. so when the super mobile high damage characters also have amazing cc or utility/suvivability or both. Then it starts to seem like a problem. All of them have very high damage, all of them have amazing mobility mostly through dashes. all of them have cc abilities and those that don't have extra dashes. On top of all that every single one of them has something in their kit that makes them harder to kill.

Compare them to a lot of other classes with much less and you will start to notice pretty big differences in what riot considers "a fair and balanced power level"

SaezioApr 8, 20193 votes

Nobody in the mentioned champs can kill in 0.1 seconds. Unless they are stupidly ahead in which case it's only normal.

Champs that can 100-0 you in 0.1 secs(or 0.2) would be the sorts of Syndra Leblanc Diana Zoe

FrozenFrostFyreApr 8, 20191 votes

I have been bursted by every single one of these characters at least once. In higher elos you can see many of these champs bursting down people. They don't even have to be fed and it usually doesn't matter how fed you yourself are compared to them. It's a much shorter list to point out who can't 1 shot you after they are 3-0.

SaezioApr 8, 20192 votes

In 0.1 second territory? were you on even footing with them? They can one-rotation you if they are slightly ahead surely, but 100-0 in 0.1-0.3 sec I don't quite believe it.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I have been bursted by every single one of these characters at least once. In higher elos you can see many of these champs bursting down people. They don't even have to be fed and it usually doesn't matter how fed you yourself are compared to them. It's a much shorter list to point out who can't 1 shot you after they are 3-0.

Can you honestly name a single champion in the game that at some point hasn't been hopelessly fed and destroyed your entire team with ease?

AceAlex031Apr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Can you honestly name a single champion in the game that at some point hasn't been hopelessly fed and destroyed your entire team with ease?

Velkoz "Knowledge Through..... Disintegration"

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nobody in the mentioned champs can kill in 0.1 seconds. Unless they are stupidly ahead in which case it's only normal.

Champs that can 100-0 you in 0.1 secs(or 0.2) would be the sorts of

let's be fair, zoe wont kill you in 0.1 seconds, because she'll make you sit there and watch for 2 seconds of sleep as she overwinds up her q with her R

SaezioApr 8, 20191 votes

Touche brother ;)

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nobody likes dying on 0.1seconds. so when the super mobile high damage characters also have amazing cc or utility/suvivability or both. Then it starts to seem like a problem. All of them have very high damage, all of them have amazing mobility mostly through dashes. all of them have cc abilities and those that don't have extra dashes. On top of all that every single one of them has something in their kit that makes them harder to kill.

Compare them to a lot of other classes with much less and you will start to notice pretty big differences in what riot considers "a fair and balanced power level"

from my perspective and personal comparrison with champs i've actually tried outside of these pools, in a friendly way if you want perspective.

Tanks and juggernauts seem able to do some extremely strong cheese like crit garen or ful ap malphite, but at the same time they're either invulnerable to the enemy team or useless. and as far as it goes they usually have crippling crowd control which leads to a feeling of helplessness by all non-tanks when they have the patch notes on their side. I'd actually increase situational charges and gap closers but decrease the level of crowd control to offer more slows , and more frequent but shorter stuns. In addition maybe throw some better debuffs on tanks since it has been a hot minute since i've encountered a frozen heart. not to mention feast or famne doesn't really fit well on tanks.

mages generally have the ability to disable you before bursting you hard, though they lack mobility. maybe that's an area though it might be too oppressive. When i think of mages in other games one thing always comes to mind: Mirror shields! Maybe some items that turn spells or abilities against their caster would be worth exploring? maybe an item which has a knockback, or an item that raises earth to form a wall? Since most mages are secondary as controllers i think this could be nice.

adcs: I don't know where to begin on them, they definitely are countered too heavily by some classes and are absurdly strong against some others, again patch to patch makes a difference. but at their xenith adcs hard counter immobile melee champs too hard while having no chance against bursty mobile champions. I've had ideas in the past for this but I'm sure they're way too extreme (Like the idea of making auto attacks function sort of like skill shots so you can try to predict someone and get all sorts of wonky bonus effects, and so enemies can try to block the projectiles. but again that's not even a suggestion it's some stupid idea i had)

So if it's about not having the counterplay available, would it be preferable to give more options through runes, ability effects, and itemization over gutting the other champions? how could this be fixed without effectively removing a big chunk of the the champions with some of the most dedicated fanbases? Is it possible to reconcile the playstyles?

SaezioApr 8, 20193 votes

In my mind, the champs you mentioned are hated because they have specific playing patterns that if you can pull off 90-95% close to perfect, the enemy needs to have a lot of experience with the champion to understand where the window of opportunity to hit back is.

One needs to know the CDs of the mentioned champions very well to be able to outplay them.

So the end result is, the opponent feels they have no agency unless "The op champion screws up really bad".

Disclaimer, some of the champs you mentioned do actually need nerfs at the moment, if we were having this conversation in pre 16/17 Lol season I could confidently say that all those champs are not OP at all. Riot has lately (over the last 18 months or so) shifted their approach that in the past was "These champs are not allowed to be viable in D2+ elo because plebs will suffer at the hands of OTPs in bronze-plat" and I feel like those champs are having the time of their lives with some exceptions that are in the gutter at this very moment(but most had their time to shine either in worlds or LC playoffs).

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In my mind, the champs you mentioned are hated because they have specific playing patterns that if you can pull off 90-95% close to perfect, the enemy needs to have a lot of experience with the champion to understand where the window of opportunity to hit back is.

One needs to know the CDs of the mentioned champions very well to be able to outplay them.

Isn't that the sort of thing that comes with time though? I'm not even that good and I have a rough grasp on most cooldowns in the game even on champs i barely play against. not everyone is me, and i do suck at some parts of this game without a doubt. but yeah.

So the end result is, the opponent feels they have no agency unless "The op champion screws up really bad".

so another person comes to a similar statement, these champions have so many options that leaves specialist champions, for example maybe a lux or a lucian, without the capacity to really combat them. But the defining characteristic of the champions is that they have that utility, so that utility either needs to be nerfed for the greater good or needs to be matched on the weaker side in the name of leveling the playing field.

Disclaimer, some of the champs you mentioned do actually need nerfs at the moment, if we were having this conversation in pre 16/17 Lol season I could confidently say that all those champs are not OP at all. Riot has lately (over the last 18 months or so) shifted their approach that in the past was "These champs are not allowed to be viable in D2+ elo because plebs will suffer at the hands of OTPs in bronze-plat" and I feel like those champs are having the time of their lives with some exceptions that are in the gutter at this very moment(but most had their time to shine either in worlds or LC playoffs).

Yeah i know that according to people certain champs on this list are definitely the big fish in the pond at the moment, though honestly that will work itself out sooner or later through patches and nerfs, but even so these champions will be reviled and i'm trying to get the core of it

booNflesruoYnaBApr 8, 20192 votes

Really good list. These are basically the champions needing nerfs. It's not that people are too lazy to learn how to play against them. It's that there usually is no way to play against them. They are simply too good with no drawbacks.

HammermancerApr 8, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Really good list. These are basically the champions needing nerfs. It's not that people are too lazy to learn how to play against them. It's that there usually is no way to play against them. They are simply too good with no drawbacks.

Ok, but what if I don't think champions should have specific drawbacks and instead should just have that level of strength in differing ways

I think a good example of a champ that does this for mages would be Azir because he also has an answer to everything, but is a mage, he's not prone to any specific shutdowns or the like.

Ahri also has this ability though unfortunately needs her ultimate, which i always thought just felt like it could be a base ability with less range

Leblanc Karma both have the ability to fight them too!

Poppy as a tank has a lot of good input, and can be counterplayed, she can definitely fight these champs and often wins the matchup,

Taric has the capacity to handle them through proper prediction, as does Sion though sion is easier to fight

Vayne Xayah Lucian are marksmen with that ability too, so i think there's a decent format

so I think there are definitely ways for the other classes to get the required utility to handle these champions, and I definitely think that encouraging uncapped skill ceilings across the board would only positively affect both the casual and pro scene simply because you would only sink as far as you would deserve based on your reactive ability and ability to deal with direct fights

so now that i'm understanding that it comes down to utility, it makes sense that their biggest opponents in other roles/classes are usually the ones with heavy utility.

Akali is SO HOTApr 9, 20192 votes

Step 1: Does the champion take more than one brain cell to play against? Step 2: If yes, then they're overpowered

Death by GlamourApr 8, 20191 votes

Well the damage output of an assassin with a triforce and another AD item for a start.

HammermancerApr 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-04-08T22:42:09.670+0000)

Well the damage output of an assassin with a triforce and another AD item for a start.

I mean assassins are supposed to do a lot of damage

which assassins build triforce other than talon? am i forgetting someone?

Death by GlamourApr 8, 20191 votes

I was talking about divers...

HammermancerApr 8, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V1w8Rtpm,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T23:15:20.972+0000)

I was talking about divers...

Yeah but the different was that an assassin can get out with mobility and a diver has to fight their way out right? which i guess if you're the guy who got 1shot it probably doesn't really matter

ChaosReynApr 8, 20191 votes

My personal hate is more towards certain ones than others, and its not really for a generalized reason.

Literally cannot target her because of her new W. If I'm not playing an AoE laner, I autolose because I can't see her until she explodes me, then she ducks back into the smoke and I can't target her again. If I am playing an AoE laner, I have a very narrow window between all her mobility to land my AoE...on a target I can't see...who's going to use her mobility the millisecond I start a casting animation. (ok, millisecond is exaggerating, but she's very frustrating to hit with anything, and the only way to really beat her is to farm war her and hope she's greedy enough to dive at you out of her zone so you can have a ghost of a chance to hit her)

is a really personal bias, because of all the jumps and a distinct lack of Morello nerfs. (if that shows my age in this game. xD) I'm starting to get decent at her, so I'm beginning to understand exactly how she can jump 20 times in 2 seconds (how do these people still have a functioning Q key? Lbs) but I still have no idea how they do this so acutely without some sort of third party macro that auto-procs low hp minions and marks with her Q, because the inhuman reactions are insane.

is just overtuned, especially in blue form. By the time I see that little mark that shows he's gonna come out of the wall, I'm already dead. Add to that the part that he can walk through walls with bonus MS to begin with (meaning some ridiculous ganks from angles you rarely have wards for) and he pretty much just ends you before you even knew he was in your lane at all. I can sometimes handle red Kayn but blue kayn pretty much auto-cucks anyone with less than 4k hp.

is more just super annoying than anything...but the main complaint I have actually isn't his ult like most people. He regens more from his gray health than Kench - the proprietor of gray health - and Kench is a tank. All that regen means it's ridiculously hard to poke him out of lane, which is sad, because the usual response to kill lane supports is to do just that - poke them out until they can't commit.

Riven & Yasuo I'll throw in the same segment because it's about the same difference: you can't kite them, you can't catch them, and you can't outdamage them once they hit 6. I'll also add that these two champions in particular...idk what it is, whether it's how tryhard they are, or how competitive they are (no, those are not the same thing) but every time I see a Riven or Yasuo player - doesn't matter what team, doesn't matter how good or bad - they are ALL VEHEMENTLY TOXIC to EVERYONE in the game.

DivewingApr 9, 20193 votes

You are not force-taunt-rooted when Akali drops shroud

ChaosReynApr 9, 20191 votes

You seem to be missing my point. If she drops shroud in the middle of the wave, she may as well be a Yasuo using Wind Wall when it comes to CS - I either miss my cs and fall behind gradually, or I attempt to claim my CS and lose 60% of my hp to an enemy I can barely hit. And this is opinion anyway...

DivewingApr 9, 20191 votes

Idk, I personally am completely fine with her wasting her only defensive tool to zone me for a wave of cs I probably won't miss a lot of, leaving her completely open to whatever I want to do for the next 20 seconds, but yeah I guess for 6 seconds it can be the worlds smallest frustration...

I guess I see your point

ChaosReynApr 9, 20191 votes

ok, one more time for the people who don't understand what the word "opinion" means.............

I have a personal bias, and I fully understand and admit that personal bias. I do NOT need a toxic, butthurt akali main telling me why everything is fine, because that is not the goddamn point of a personal opinion and bias.

Someone asked WHY people hate certain champions. I gave my opinionated answer. Take your fucking harassment elsewhere.

DivewingApr 9, 20191 votes

Thats not an opinion, thats laziness.

Take responsibility for your own actions.

No one forces you to engage with her when she drops shroud, but you do because you simply either cannot be bothered to play around it, or just don't care.

The ability gives arguably the largest abuse window to the opponent in the game, all you have to do is have the patience and self-discipline to ignore her for 6 seconds.

If you think that is unfair, that is you making an excuse for your own laziness, not a personal opinion.

You also completely ignored the other parts of OP's question - how would they be made better/fixed, and/or what could be done to bring other classes/champions closer to their level - of course people are going to challenge the logic of your excuses; there was an assumption that this, while taking into account frustration etc, was ultimately a discussion about WHICH CHAMPIONS NEEDED CHANGING (if any).

Lastly, I'm not an Akali main, I'm an Azir main, but stepping back and WATCHING the game instead of PLAYING it has made a huge difference for me in seeing what is actually busted and what isn't.

The constant circlejerk around champions like Akali who are perfectly fair and reasonable, are ones that are perpetuated by people like you, who try to convince everyone that their laziness is a legitimate opinion.

I gave you two chances to realise this - you ignored me, and then berated me about how I'm ignoring your opinion. That right there just proves it's not an opinion - you are not interested in learning anything different. You have arbitrarily decided you don't like Akali, and falsified reasoning for it. You then masquerade your laziness as your opinion.

Just because you say it is your opinion, doesn't obligatorily mean it is correct or valid.

You can ignore me again if you like, but hopefully you will at least go away from this and think twice about how quickly you jump to a conclusion about something without forethought, and then how stubbornly you will cling to it afterwards.

ChaosReynApr 9, 20191 votes

reported for harassment. I explained it nicely. I asked not so nicely that you take a hint. Now you're just trying to be a dick.

DivewingApr 10, 20191 votes

I defended myself, you decided it was harassment.

If anything you harassed me first, calling me a butthurt toxic Akali main, and you didn't even have the base decency to tell me why you think I am wrong.

This is the entire problem.

You just resort to the child tactic of fingers-in-your-ears "la-la-la-cant-hear-youuuuuu".

If you aren't interested in discussing on the DISCUSSION boards, why are you here?

Rather than get offended and whine even more, how about you actually treat everyone else maturely.

There's a reason why you are so upset with this, and it's not my fault.

The thigh guyApr 9, 20191 votes

All but 2 of those have low cooldown mobility. That’s my problem with them.

HammermancerApr 9, 20191 votes

what would you think about making slows reduce mobility from all sources outside of blinks like by making the dash either move slower or have a lower, and allowing repositions actually interrupt dashes if landed (Such as from a Draven E) would that make it better?

The thigh guyApr 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

what would you think about making slows reduce mobility from all sources outside of blinks like by making the dash either move slower or have a lower, and allowing repositions actually interrupt dashes if landed (Such as from a Draven E) would that make it better?

Maybe. But I doubt riot could code it to actually work well