CertainlyT should NOT be making champions

Dope Solo·Nov 23, 2017·34 votes·12,003 views

He should be answering phones handling credit card purchases or redirecting calls to designers who know how to BALANCE gameplay.

43 Comments

xPhantomDancerXNov 23, 201712 votes

He certainly should not be making champs.

SasogwaNov 23, 201710 votes

CertainlyT has great creativity and imagination

... But he doesn't have any sense of making a balanceable champion and does not limit himself when he should be. His champions are completely warping the metagame around their insanely powerful kits with usually close to no weaknesses whatsoever, making them either dominating the meta and rendering sometimes complete classes of champions worthless, or just nerfed enough to be complete garbage tier (and yet still might be considered in progames for what they offer)

QuephaNov 23, 20176 votes

At the very least he should have to follow the same rules and principles of every other designer. Somehow they all manage to not consistently produce champions like this.

Unreformed ShacoNov 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

At the very least he should have to follow the same rules and principles of every other designer. Somehow they all manage to not consistently produce champions like this.

I'd usually agree with you, but I think Zoe is the best champ designed for a while.

Strong when played right, but very clear weaknesses.

QuephaNov 23, 20175 votes

What is her clear weakness? RNG might screw her on minion bubbles?

Unreformed ShacoNov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What is her clear weakness? RNG might screw her on minion bubbles?

Fight her.

She has 0 escapes. Her burst relies on distance/poke.

Think of her as old nidalee.

QuephaNov 23, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unreformed Shaco,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V0p45nQA,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-23T18:06:10.161+0000)

She has 0 escapes.

If RNG screws her on minion bubbles.

Her burst relies on distance/poke.

If she couldn't bounce it, you'd be correct. It's just a matter of learning to play her and then her weaknesses disappear, just like the last two CertainlyT champs.

Think of her as old nidalee.

Something Riot killed for good reason.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20178 votes

{quoted}

At the very least he should have to follow the same rules and principles of every other designer. Somehow they all manage to not consistently produce champions like this.

The point of CertainlyT IS to design champions like this. He designs way more imaginative and creative champs than other designers, especially for higher skill cap players.

QuephaNov 23, 20178 votes

They aren't more imaginative and creative, anyone could come up with his ideas. It's just if anyone else proposed them they'd be laughed out of the office.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

They aren't more imaginative and creative, anyone could come up with his ideas. It's just if anyone else proposed them they'd be laughed out of the office.

...what?

Then why don't they?

CertainlyT was responsible for a good deal of progress in LoL's modern champion design. Even Lucian's passive is apparently credited to him.

QuephaNov 23, 201713 votes

{quoted}

Then why don't they?

Because CertainlyT creates bad designs. "False choices," "Making the player feel like !@#$," "Burden of knowledge," explicit champion design mistakes that Riot has outlined in the past that make his champions a net negative on the game. His 2 most recent champions are both up for reworks to try and fix problems they've had since release, the only reason they haven't been reworked yet is because it's incredibly difficult to keep the champions feeling like themselves because the toxic parts of the kit are core to their identitites. He's creating mistakes faster than they can be fixed.

CertainlyT was responsible for a good deal of progress in LoL's modern champion design. Even Lucian's passive is apparently credited to him.

It took the great and mighty CertainlyT to come up with the idea to put Master Yi's passive on an adc? I'm not really impressed with that one.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Because CertainlyT creates bad designs. "False choices," "Making the player feel like !@#$," "Burden of knowledge," explicit champion design mistakes that Riot has outlined in the past that make his champions a net negative on the game. His 2 most recent champions are both up for reworks to try and fix problems they've had since release. He's creating mistakes faster than they can be fixed.

It took the great and mighty CertainlyT to come up with the idea to put Master Yi's passive on an adc? I'm not really impressed with that one.

You know, for a random on the internet, you got a lot of shit to say about people that are actually tasked with the "easy" job of designing and coding League of Legends champions. Designing a champ isn't as simple as "theory-crafting". It has to actually be doable in code. When Lucian was being designed with his double guns, CertainlyT was the one that thought up the case on how he'd actually utilize the other gun (tying it to ability usage).

Game design is WAY harder and more expensive than you're giving credit. Also, the hell about Zoe is ANYTHING CLOSE TO ANYTHING WE'VE SEEN BEFORE?

QuephaNov 23, 20175 votes

You aren't actually responding to any points I made, you have assumed a bunch of points I didn't make at all.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You aren't actually responding to any points I made, you have assumed a bunch of points I didn't make at all.

Your point: CertainlyT isn't creative or anything. He just makes shitty champs.

My point: He clearly pushes innovation in champ design in concept and execution.

How am I not responding to your bullshit?

QuephaNov 23, 20174 votes

Because all the "innovative" parts of his champion designs that people cite are consistently parts of the designs that are most complained about by other players because they are so horrible to play against that they shouldn't be in the game. His champions have mechanics that we don't see anywhere else because they shouldn't be seen at all.

OleandervineMar 14, 20181 votes

His designs have been good for the game AFTER the Balance team has reworked them after having to have let the champions rot in the gutters after they nerfed them into nonexistence for years. Take a look at Zyra and Kalista. Both were his creations, and both proved excessively problematic on launch and the month or so afterwards. Both got nerfed really hard, leaving Zyra nothing more than a support and Kalista completely forgotten, until Zyra got her kit updated and Kalista had elements of her kit rebalanced by the Balance team. The fact that NONE of CertainlyT's creations have been able to sustain themselves without excessive nerfing is a testament that his designs are extremely flawed. I am not saying he shouldn't design champions, but I am saying that he shouldn't call the shots all through the process. At some point, his designs need to be handed over to another set of eyes so that they can correct his poor balance choices and try to fix his champions before launch. I believe he's so biased towards his own creations that he's unable to see the massive flaws he continually builds into the kits he makes. Warwick was actually a good example of how he should always be designing. He had limitations set by the nature of Warwick being a 450 champ and an early access jungler, as well as design elements he had to maintain. He was watched and his designs monitored so that they kept to those guidelines, and Warwick ended up a near perfect release. CertainlyT needs more of those guidelines and limitations in his working process so that his innovation doesn't create the steep schisms in the player population that his designs tend to do, which leads to people leaving the game.

SEKAINov 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

You know, for a random on the internet, you got a lot of shit to say about people that are actually tasked with the "easy" job of designing and coding League of Legends champions. Designing a champ isn't as simple as "theory-crafting". It has to actually be doable in code. When Lucian was being designed with his double guns, CertainlyT was the one that thought up the case on how he'd actually utilize the other gun (tying it to ability usage).

Game design is WAY harder and more expensive than you're giving credit. Also, the hell about Zoe is ANYTHING CLOSE TO ANYTHING WE'VE SEEN BEFORE?

To be fair, shooting twice with your dual pistol every once in a while and using them in a literal drive-by or bullet spray is hardly a revolutionary design in video games. I mean, that's kinda the first thing you'd think about double-pistols, that you would use both hands at some point? If Lucian is revolutionary as a design, then MF is too, only several years before Lucian.

Not to mention, I don't even think that's what CT did on the design of Lucian, but rather afaik he proposed the prototype ammo system that was originally intended to be for Lucian but then dropped which would eventually be used on Jhin and Graves' rework. Or so I heard. That or, the Lucian part never existed and it was just about Jhin and Graves.

To where the credit is due, assuming that part is true, the ammo system is actually something we need to praise CT for.

HOWEVER, it still doesn't change the fact CT also has a big tendency to recycle other existing champ's core identities into their design with little reason, the tendency to neglect putting a cap over how loaded a champ should be in their core, and the fact many of their champs are fundamentally broken and exactly the kind of design Riot has claimed to be against due to the notion that it incites frustration to both the players playing with them and the difficulty in balancing them.

EDIT: Zoe isn't the worst of CT's design in these regards, but she still has a few questionable designs regarding her bubble being one of the strongest CC in the game that can be hard to dodge and also deals a butt load of damage for some reason, her W being way too RNG dependent a lot of times which is something Riot has explicitly said to be against as a dictating factor of a champ, and that Q's distance based damage re-living old Nid's problems only this time it can also change directions too because lulz. That's like, quite a few problems, and worse, those are fundamental problems that can be easily foreseen and on a champ that's literally just out.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, shooting twice with your dual pistol every once in a while and using them in a literal drive-by or bullet spray is hardly a revolutionary design in video games. I mean, that's kinda the first thing you'd think about double-pistols, that you would use both hands at some point? If Lucian is revolutionary as a design, then MF is too, only several years before Lucian.

Think of it like this: MF and Lucian both use double guns, right?

Lucian actually plays like he's gun slinging.

MF just has animations that cycle between one hand and the other without any real meaning behind it, and even has an animation that uses both hands to shoot one bloody projectile.

The difference is that Lucian's game play makes him feel like he's actually using two guns. MF is just kinda "there".

Not to mention, I don't even think that's what CT did on the design of Lucian

CT didn't do Lucian's entire design. He helped the guy doing the design to figure out his passive. That's why I said "He helped with Lucian's passive". Did I not say exactly that?

HOWEVER, it still doesn't change the fact CT also has a big tendency to recycle other existing champ's core identities into their design with little reason, the tendency to neglect putting a cap over how loaded a champ should be in their core, and the fact many of their champs are fundamentally broken and exactly the kind of design Riot has claimed to be against due to the notion that it incites frustration to both the players playing with them and the difficulty in balancing them.

I don't see how Zoe or Yasuo fall into this category of "recycling a ton of elements from other champs". And if you're gonna fault that, why not fault Ivern for having a shield and a "pet" mechanic? Why not fault Urgot for having a shield and a skill shot on Q? TONS of champs have skill shots. TONS of champs have heals/shields. TONS of champs have movement speed buffs and 3-hit passives. Just because one element or another may be similar to another champ doesn't mean it's shameless recycling. It'd be recycling if there wasn't a major difference between the final products of 2 champions. Like the Enchanters. The Enchanter class has a ton of recycling, but CertainlyT didn't design any enchanters.

You guys complain way too much sometimes. Rather, you guys sometimes focus your complaining on the wrong things.

SEKAINov 23, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Think of it like this: MF and Lucian both use double guns, right?

Lucian actually plays like he's gun slinging.

MF just has animations that cycle between one hand and the other without any real meaning behind it, and even has an animation that uses both hands to shoot one bloody projectile.

The difference is that Lucian's game play makes him feel like he's actually using two guns. MF is just kinda "there".

Only during his passive and ulti when Lucian's off-hand pistol plays a role in his design, as all of his other abilities can be put on literally any design and make-do with 0 regard to the kind of weapon they use.

Lucian's ulti is then very reminiscent of MF's ulti, put the 2 guns at the front and unload all bullets in a flash. So that's off the comparison.

So you're saying Lucian's passive where he shoots twice after casting a spell somehow marks an intrinsic difference between the supposed gunslinging and just a person with 2 guns who always forget to use the other weapon... never mind the fact MF's E pretty much is her quickly tossing up some bullets in the air and let them rain down and the reason why she could toss so many bullets so quickly is because she has 2 guns instead of 1, that the reason she has AS boosts is exactly because she has 2 gun instead of 1, and that only when using her Q she uses 1 gun instead of 2 in her entire kit meanwhile Lucian has nothing to do with his double-pistols in both his Q, W and E?

What?

CT didn't do Lucian's entire design. He helped the guy doing the design to figure out his passive. That's why I said "He helped with Lucian's passive". Did I not say exactly that?

No I was saying that it's not what he did afaik, because I've never heard about that story. Instead the thing I know about him in that regard is that he prototyped the ammo system which may or may not have originally be intended for Lucian but was scraped and used on Jhin and later Graves' rework instead.

I don't see how Zoe or Yasuo fall into this category of "recycling a ton of elements from other champs". And if you're gonna fault that, why not fault Ivern for having a shield and a "pet" mechanic? Why not fault Urgot for having a shield and a skill shot on Q? TONS of champs have skill shots. TONS of champs have heals/shields. TONS of champs have movement speed buffs and 3-hit passives. Just because one element or another may be similar to another champ doesn't mean it's shameless recycling. It'd be recycling if there wasn't a major difference between the final products of 2 champions. Like the Enchanters. The Enchanter class has a ton of recycling, but CertainlyT didn't design any enchanters.

You guys complain way too much sometimes. Rather, you guys sometimes focus your complaining on the wrong things.

There is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs having the same core identities; for example, SIon's self exploding shield that the player can control the blast's timing, is very different to Ivern exploding shield that can be used on allies but can not control the timing and is most prided for its slow rather than its damage unlike Sion's (outside of the shielding amount), which is then different to Sona's shield that is aura-based and restricted to within a small region around her, which in turn is also different to say Janna's shield that can be used to protect towers. So please don't use that argument, it's clearly not working.

When I say copying core identities I mean:

Yasuo's Q tornado functions almost exactly like Janna's Q. And the champ is in general, the product that would happen when you combine Master Yi with Riven. The only thing new to the kit is the wind wall, which funnily enough, the only aspect in this champ that's original from the designer is so utterly toxic the champ has been complained even to this day for that bit alone.
Similarly, Kalista is what would happen if you take the iconic aspect of Ashe and have it mate with Vayne. For the most part, Kalista feels like a Vayne whose ulti would never end, just minus the stealth, while also sporting Ashe's scouting and her strong CC ulti; maybe put a bit of Twitch in there for Rend too but meh.
Darius is literally a copy of Garen, almost identical champs. Meaningful difference only exists between W where they actually have tangibly spells differences (Q and E are more or less just swapped between the 2), otherwise they are just directly opposite themes with little original thoughts put into where Darius is more offensive and Garen is more defensive.
Thresh is literally a copy of Blitz, with the sole meaningful difference being W. The passive is so bland and void of any reasoning it just seems like an excuse to shove in an infinitely scaling support and nothing more.
Zoe takes after old Nid's toxic distance-damage spear, and the fact both are mobile champs who possess such a mechanic.

The above are all champs designed by CT.

This is not to say the idea of doing such a thing is automatically wrong, such as the fact Xin's new ulti is taken after old Poppy's and it seems to work just fine. HOWEVER, in the case of say Thresh, what was even the reason behind him being almost identical to Blitz's entire kit?

You'd be kidding yourself to think CT doesn't overly recycle existing champion designs, and not just any design, their core identities, because he really has been doing that for quite a lot (as demonstrated above, almost his entire library used it to 1 extent or the other).

EDIT: 3-hit passive was the result of the dreaded class updates, where they tried to "streamline" the diversity in the cast and that thing came out as one of the outcomes; it has little to do with other designers' fault in their creation.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Only during his passive and ulti when Lucian's off-hand pistol plays a role in his design, as all of his other abilities can be put on literally any design and make-do with 0 regard to the kind of weapon they use.

Lucian's ulti is then very reminiscent of MF's ulti, put the 2 guns at the front and unload all bullets in a flash. So that's off the comparison.

So you're saying Lucian's passive where he shoots twice after casting a spell somehow marks an intrinsic difference between the supposed gunslinging and just a person with 2 guns who always forget to use the other weapon... never mind the fact MF's E pretty much is her quickly tossing up some bullets in the air and let them rain down and the reason why she could toss so many bullets so quickly is because she has 2 guns instead of 1, that the reason she has AS boosts is exactly because she has 2 gun instead of 1, and that only when using her Q she uses 1 gun instead of 2 in her entire kit meanwhile Lucian has nothing to do with his double-pistols in both his Q, W and E?

What?

No I was saying that it's not what he did afaik, because I've never heard about that story. Instead the thing I know about him in that regard is that he prototyped the ammo system which may or may not have originally be intended for Lucian but was scraped and used on Jhin and later Graves' rework instead.

There is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs having the same core identities; for example, SIon's self exploding shield that the player can control the blast's timing, is very different to Ivern exploding shield that can be used on allies but can not control the timing and is most prided for its slow rather than its damage unlike Sion's (outside of the shielding amount), which is then different to Sona's shield that is aura-based and restricted to within a small region around her, which in turn is also different to say Janna's shield that can be used to protect towers. So please don't use that argument, it's clearly not working.

When I say copying core identities I mean:

Yasuo's Q tornado functions almost exactly like Janna's Q. And the champ is in general, the product that would happen when you combine Master Yi with Riven. The only thing new to the kit is the wind wall, which funnily enough, the only aspect in this champ that's original from the designer is so utterly toxic the champ has been complained even to this day for that bit alone.

Similarly, Kalista is what would happen if you take the iconic aspect of Ashe and have it mate with Vayne. For the most part, Kalista feels like a Vayne whose ulti would never end, just minus the stealth, while also sporting Ashe's scouting and her strong CC ulti; maybe put a bit of Twitch in there for Rend too but meh.

Darius is literally a copy of Garen, almost identical champs.

Thresh is literally a copy of Blitz, with the sole meaningful difference being W. The passive is so bland and void of any reasoning it just seems like an excuse to shove in an infinitely scaling support and nothing more.

Zoe takes after old Nid's toxic distance-damage spear, and the fact both are mobile champs who possess such a mechanic.

The above are all champs designed by CT.

This is not to say the idea of doing such a thing is automatically wrong, such as the fact Xin's new ulti is taken after old Poppy's and it seems to work just fine. HOWEVER, in the case of say Thresh, what was even the reason behind him being almost identical to Blitz's entire kit?

You'd be kidding yourself to think CT doesn't overly recycle existing champion designs, and not just any design, their core identities, because he really has been doing that for quite a lot (as demonstrated above, almost his entire library used it to 1 extent or the other).

EDIT: 3-hit passive was the result of the dreaded class updates, where they tried to "streamline" the diversity in the cast and that thing came out as one of the outcomes; it has little to do with other designers' fault in their creation.

Here's my problem: You're SSSSSOOOO far wrong about like...everything here...but it's SSSSSSOOOO mentally draining having to argue with you guys on these boards because you all follow the same sheep mentality. I'm not even sure it's worth having to get in a huge ass argument over this when the next guy is gonna be as clueless about it as you are now. What's the point?

Like, you HONESTLY think MF and Lucian's the same? You think MF's game play incorporates actually utilizing her two guns cohesively more than they're just second-thought animations? You think Lucian's ult, which actually cycles between shooting a shot from his right and left guns and allows him to move and dash mid-ult, is comparable to MF's ridiculous cone-shaped hit box which has more projectiles in it than she has shooting animations? MF is Riot's first take at a dual-wielding champion. Lucian was Riot's first success at it.

Then there's the stupidity such as:

Darius and Garen are the same champ. The fuck does Darius do similar to Garen outside of "be big"? Tons of elements from Darius's game play vary greatly from Garen's. His Q actually has to be aimed and timed. His ult needs stacks and grants resets to clean up entire fights. HE HAS A FUCKING PULL.
You're jumping through hoops to say "Kalista's nothing special if you take THREE DIFFERENT CHAMPIONS and mesh them together, kinda." Literally horse shit.
Zoe's Q isn't the only thing about Zoe. The main 2 draws Riot used for Zoe's teasers was her ability to induce sleep, which no one does, and her ability to steal summoners and items, which no one does. "Omg her Q increases in damage with travel distance". AND? Because Nidalee does it, NO ONE ELSE can? Even Zoe's Q can change direction mid flight. The fuck is this?
HOW IS YASUO'S INSTANT Q CAST EVEN CLOSE TO JANNA'S? "Omg it's a tornado". Well GEEZE two wind-based champs can't have knock ups, huh? Let's forget how Janna's can be held in place and charged for damage/distance while Yasuo's Q literally has multiple variants between a skill shot stab, a skill shot knock-up, an aoe, and an aoe knock-up. "Nope it's Janna's Q".

And with ALL this stupidity you're trying to split hairs between Ivern's exploding shield and Sion's because Sion can't put his on allies? WHEN YOU TRIED TO COMPARE YASUO'S Q TO JANNA...THIS IS THE BEST YOU COME UP WITH?

This shit is why Rioters don't post here. It'd be impossible to wade through the bs, but somehow you guys don't realize that you guys speak bs. It's mentally draining.

Side note: I think the guy designing Lucian's passive before CT intervened was the one that thought up the ammo mechanic that got scrapped. I know for sure that CT was given credit for Lucian's current passive specifically.

SEKAINov 23, 20174 votes

because you all follow the same sheep mentality

Not sure if you noticed, but the instant you use this kind of narrative as the basis of your argument, it's good as you throwing the towel in and call it a day.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Not sure if you noticed, but the instant you use this kind of narrative as the basis of your argument, it's good as you throwing the towel in and call it a day.

I might as well, because you guys DO follow the same sheep mentality. Even now, you go past everything I said disproving your previous post to comment on one measly sentence, which simply proves my point that you don't want to face facts more than you just want to do the cool thing and hate on CertainlyT's champ designs. You want to be treated like you know what you're talking about, but just THAT much is draining, and you just proved it. You know you're wrong, but you turn to the "Please be as polite as possible to me regardless of the nonsensical misinformation I'm spewing" gimmick rather than facing facts. You aren't the first one to do this, and it's honestly old. You guys can't just take an L.

SEKAINov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I might as well, because you guys DO follow the same sheep mentality. Even now, you go past everything I said disproving your previous post to comment on one measly sentence, which simply proves my point that you don't want to face facts more than you just want to do the cool thing and hate on CertainlyT's champ designs. You want to be treated like you know what you're talking about, but just THAT much is draining, and you just proved it. You know you're wrong, but you turn to the "Please be as polite as possible to me regardless of the nonsensical misinformation I'm spewing" gimmick rather than facing facts. You aren't the first one to do this, and it's honestly old. You guys can't just take an L.

I didn't just go past everything.

I only separated it out as a heads up, the rest needs digestion so it's gonna take time.

But either way, once again acting like this is not going to win you argument points, something I've learned through the hard way before.

SEKAINov 23, 20174 votes

Like, you HONESTLY think MF and Lucian's the same? You think MF's game play incorporates actually utilizing her two guns cohesively more than they're just second-thought animations? You think Lucian's ult, which actually cycles between shooting a shot from his right and left guns and allows him to move and dash mid-ult, is comparable to MF's ridiculous cone-shaped hit box which has more projectiles in it than she has shooting animations? MF is Riot's first take at a dual-wielding champion. Lucian was Riot's first success at it.

Tech limit has nothing to do with core design innovation. They both are good dual wielders with respect to the time when they were originally made.

Also as I've said before, Lucian's Q, W and E have nothing to do with his dual wielding, and only his passive and ulti are directly related to it, meanwhile MF's Q is the only thing in her kit that doesn't directly reference the fact she's dual wielding.

I think you are just biased.

Then there's the stupidity such as:

Darius and Garen are the same champ. The fuck does Darius do similar to Garen outside of "be big"? Tons of elements from Darius's game play vary greatly from Garen's. His Q actually has to be aimed and timed. His ult needs stacks and grants resets to clean up entire fights. HE HAS A FUCKING PULL.

Darius and Garen both has a spin attack that damages around them.
Darius and Garen both has a melee single target debuff.
Darius and Garen both has a passive that has thing to do with 'X HP over time'. Garen heals over time, Darius bleeds enemies over time.
Both Garen and Darius has a melee single target execute 'dunk' nuke as their ultimate. The only difference is Darius's ulti can be refreshed.

(Darius's stacking mechanism wasn't there when he first launched, it was added by the rework team to try and differentiate the 2 almost identical champ)

Details aside, you can't be serious to say that they're not almost identical in their core. And it's not gonna change that when the only meaningful difference between the 2 guy is just 1 of their 4-5 spells in the kit.

You're jumping through hoops to say "Kalista's nothing special if you take THREE DIFFERENT CHAMPIONS and mesh them together, kinda." Literally horse shit.

You aren't listening, the idea is that Kalista possesses VERY SIMILAR CORE IDENTITIES as other EXISTING CHAMPS. Again, go back to the "There is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs having the same core identities".

Relateable champs should be between Aatrox and Trynd, who seem similar, but at no part of their kit where they closely resemble each other, at least not to the degree that some of the CT's champ have with another existing champ on the roster. Or you can use the example of Rengar and Kha'zix. Or you can talk about Nasus and Renekton, where the only overlap in identities is their ulti, which MAKES SENSE btw given they're siblings (or were, if the lore has been changed). What did Kalista have in common with Vayne or Ashe as a person? Why does she have the core identities of the 2 like nobody's business?

The same thing is extended onto the worst offender in CT's library, Thresh, which you've ignored to comment on for whatever reason; Thresh is the worst because his gameplay design literally is directly copied from Blitz without any reason whatsoever.

Zoe's Q isn't the only thing about Zoe. The main 2 draws Riot used for Zoe's teasers was her ability to induce sleep, which no one does, and her ability to steal summoners and items, which no one does. "Omg her Q increases in damage with travel distance". AND? Because Nidalee does it, NO ONE ELSE can? Even Zoe's Q can change direction mid flight. The fuck is this?

Nid's distance damage spear was removed because it was just a flat out bad idea.

Sleep while originally sounds interesting, But then the way they implemented, it's literally just Bard's ulti without the stasis and replace it with a stun or something. It was disappointing to say the least.

Stealing other people's summoner's is just a flat out bad idea. While it already raises a shit ton of questions by itself, the biggest one in its implementation is the fact it's way too reliant on RNG, something Riot and most of the players are utterly against. So why implement it the way that it is now in the first place? It's just like her Q where they KNOW that it is PROVEN those ideas don't work in league, but why did they have to put both of them at once in a single kit? What, does he want another rework in his line-up that's either been reworked (some even multiple times already) or is confirmed for a rework?

HOW IS YASUO'S INSTANT Q CAST EVEN CLOSE TO JANNA'S? "Omg it's a tornado". Well GEEZE two wind-based champs can't have knock ups, huh? Let's forget how Janna's can be held in place and charged for damage/distance while Yasuo's Q literally has multiple variants between a skill shot stab, a skill shot knock-up, an aoe, and an aoe knock-up. "Nope it's Janna's Q".

Galio's tornado shreds the target inside and it stays on the field for a short period. That's another potential use/realisation of tornados.

Yasuo's tornado runs in a line and knocks up everything within, identical to Janna's both in form and its use, because both are explicitly used to knock up people in a line.

Again, look at Galio's tornado and think, why does Yasuo's tornado have to function almost identically as Janna's? Why can't Yasuo's tornado has a flair of his own?

EDIT: I wasn't even talking about Yasuo's 3 stage Q, just his tornado. But then if I were to talk about it I will say it's a rip-off of Riven's Q (hence why I said he was just a product made from putting Yi and Riven into a blender), both are short CD and resourceless spam-based spell; hell the 3rd one knocks up too just like Riven's in fact. Sure, I'm sure it was originally set up as a lore bait and to draw parallel between the lore-tied characters like these 2 are, but come on, they aren't siblings, they are from different nation and culture, their magic-thingy work on completely different fundamental basis (Riven's weapon is enchanted with runes that grants her the ability to control wind, Yasuo's innate like The Force); like the only thing they share, or is supposed to share, is the wind theme, why are their Q's so similar?

And with ALL this stupidity you're trying to split hairs between Ivern's exploding shield and Sion's because Sion can't put his on allies? WHEN YOU TRIED TO COMPARE YASUO'S Q TO JANNA...THIS IS THE BEST YOU COME UP WITH?

Yasuo's tornado functions exactly like Janna's where both of the 2 knocks up targets in a line.

Meanwhile:

Ivern's shield can be cast on allies and his minion Daisy, Sion's is self-cast only.
Ivery's shield has a static trigger time, Sion's can control when to blast it after a short period of compulsory static timer.
Ivern's shield's damage is very low and is mostly used for its slow, Sion's shield blast can be very damaging and scales and does not have CC effects.

So while yes both are shields, but they are very different shields made for different high level uses.

Again, there is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs sharing the same core identity of some description, something you've consistently failed to distinguish between for reasons unknown.

Side note: I think the guy designing Lucian's passive before CT intervened was the one that thought up the ammo mechanic that got scrapped. I know for sure that CT was given credit for Lucian's current passive specifically.

You are wrong, the ammo or "shell" mechanics is credited to CT, he's clearly not uninvolved in the designing of that mechanic.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/76cPZbAw-congratulations-certainlyt

(I then got it from somewhere that the shell mechanics was originally first tried on either Lucian or Jhin, and Graves was not the only character being tested on it; though I am not too sure if Lucian was indeed involved in the development of the shell mechanic)

Therefore, given you got this bit wrong, it gives me some incentive to doubt your claim that he suggested/designed the Lucian's passive.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Tech limit has nothing to do with core design innovation. They both are good dual wielders with respect to the time when they were originally made.

And yet the way Lucian handles and controls actually incorporates the concept of wielding two guns. MF's dual-wielding nature could be replaced by a Tommy Gun or an AK and make MORE sense rather than less. Hell, one skin of hers is literally her with two Tommy Guns.

Also as I've said before, Lucian's Q, W and E have nothing to do with his dual wielding, and only his passive and ulti are directly related to it, meanwhile MF's Q is the only thing in her kit that doesn't directly reference the fact she's dual wielding.

The point of his abilities is that it has him cycle through his double-tapping play style after using them. Ability -> AA -> Ability -> AA, and so on, in that pattern. The result makes him feel like a dual-wielding gun-slinger. MF is entirely devoid of this feel and concept and you know this. Why are you trying so hard.

I think you are just biased.

Reality: I'm not stupid. I don't even play Lucian, but this shit is obvious.

Darius and Garen...

Details aside, you can't be serious to say that they're almost identical in their core.

You JUST said that the core innovation of someone can be varied from other factors, such as tech limitation. You JUST said champs like Ivern are fine having super similar moves to others because of shit like "They don't put their shield on allies like Ivern does". Now you're comparing a life stealing singular spin to a DoT-style Beyblade? You're comparing a silence to a slow? You're comparing a fucking bleed debuff to a fucking hp regen buff?

This is what I mean when I say you guys are mentally draining. This is shit I shouldn't even have to correct, and yet here I am correcting it. Also, DARIUS'S ULT ISN'T AN EXECUTE. It gains more true damage, rather than physical, based on bleed stacks, but doesn't scale with missing health. Garen's ult doesn't scale with damage stats, and ONLY scales with missing health.

You're just ENTIRELY wrong here.

You aren't listening, the idea is that Kalista possesses VERY SIMILAR CORE IDENTITIES as other EXISTING CHAMPS. Again, go back to the "There is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs having the same core identities".

The hop comes from literally no one.

She has an aoe knock-up from an ally she tethers herself to at the start of the game. NO OTHER MARKSMAN has a knock-up, let alone, aoe, let alone tied to someone else.

The rend is at least comparable to Twitch.

Once again, bullshit claim.

The same thing is extended onto the worst offender in CT's library, Thresh, which you've ignored to comment on for whatever reason; Thresh is the worst because he literally is directly copied from Blitz without any reason whatsoever.

So because Blitz has a pull, Nautilus, Kled, Thresh, and Leona should all be removed from the game or have their Q's removed. Got it. TOTALLY THE EXACT SAME SHIT.

Nid's distance damage spear was removed because it was just a flat out bad idea.

Nid's spear still scales with distance...

Sleep while originally sounds interesting, it's literally just Bard's ulti without the stasis and replace it with a stun or something. It was disappointing to say the least.

Are you TRYING to get a rise out of me?

Stealing other people's summoner's is just a flat out bad idea.

So you complain when it's an idea similar to someone else, but you ALSO complain when you think an idea is op while being completely original. If that's your mentality, you're gonna run out of ideas.

Galio's tornado shreds the target inside and it stays on the field for a short period. That's another use of tornado.

AND?

Yasuo's tornado runs in a long and knocks up everything within, identical to Janna's both in form and its use, because both are explicitly used to knock up people in a line.

That's one of FOUR Q'S.

And you've skimmed over the fact that Janna's Q is significantly more difficult to use proactively, and is primarily designed to use reactively. In that sense, Yasuo's Q is more like a standard line of hard cc, whereas Janna's Q is a stronger defensive tool. And, once again, YASUO HAS FOUR Q'S. (More accurately, he has 3 with a possible bonus effect on the aoe variant)

Again, look at Galio's tornado and think, why does Yasuo's tornado have to function almost identically as Janna's? Why can't Yasuo's tornado has a flair of his own?

SO HE CAN ULT.

Ivern's shield can be cast on allies and his minion Daisy, Sion's is self-cast only.

...you're not doing this right now are you...

Ivery's shield has a static trigger time, Sion's can control when it blast it after a short period of compulsory static timer.

...you're really doing this...

Ivern's shield's damage is very low and is mostly used for its slow, Sion's shield blast can be very damaging and scales.

...you're actually trolling me. I'm not responding past this point. I'm also blocking you.

SEKAINov 23, 20173 votes

Gunslinger play style has nothing to do duel-welding, like they're not the same thing nor do they depend on one another. Lucian's kit might illustrate gunslinging better than MF with the "tap" gameplay, but he doesn't necessarily do dual-wielding better. Retrospectively, considering only Lucian's passive and R references directly at the notion that he uses 2 guns while MF has that in her entire kit besides Q, MF is arguably the better dual-wield character as a whole.
In the case of Garen vs Darius and Ivern vs SIon, you're ignoring the INTENT of their similar spells. Both Garen and Darius's spin have no other purpose than to do an AoE damage around them; details differ but they are made for that same purpose. The same goes for their debuff, one is a silence and the other is a slow, but they are both there as a single target debuff to duel the opponent in the lane. Sion's shield and Ivern's are however, 2 very different shields, because their purpose is completely different, Sion's shield is tank and do AoE burst, Ivern's shield is to do AoE CC. Unless you believe burst and CC are of the same purpose otherwise Ivern and Sion's shields will never be considered as closely as Garen and Darius' are.
Speaking of ignoring the design, core design intent, Kalista's hop is merely a re-skinning of Vayne's Tumble, and that's exactly how she uses her hop. Therefore, the 2 are as far as core identities are considered, the same thing, I mean the Kalista hop and Vayne Tumble; thus I compare Kalista to a stealth-less Vayne whose ulti would never end, because that's exactly how Kalista is meant to be played as, and therefore a copying of another's core identities since Tumble belongs to Vayne as her core characteristic as a marksman. The same goes for Kalista also somehow having a strong CC ulti and scouting (in a line, different to Quinn's AoE scouting), something that should be exclusive to Ashe has her core identity. To break it out a bit, you could argue that another marksman, Varus, is also a combination between Ashe and Vayne, which you may or may not have some points given his W and R being somewhat bell-ringing of the 2; but then, the difference is that Varus has his major design being centered around his charging-Q that revolves around manual sniping which would become his personal niche... so what's Kalista's niche? An extremified version of Vayne and Ashe.... you see the problem?
You can't be serious about Thresh. Both Thresh and Blitz has almost the same hook as their Q. They both have a knock up as E. And they both have an ulti that is meant to be used in the middle of an enemy team to make teamfights easier. They are played, in general, with the exact same standard combo: You hook, knock it up, and use ulti to make sure your team will kill them; exactly the same. Hell, I ignored this but Thresh's W give a shield too, just like Blitz's passive. Clearly they are completely different amiright? I don't think so; like seriously the overlap is just way too high, their designs overlap, their playstyles overlap, and their PURPOSE in the game overlaps a shit ton, and there is not a single reason why it's like that because there is NO WAY the 2 champs are related.
When I talk about Zoe's Q and old Nid's Q, I wasn't just talking about the notion with distancing scaling, but how toxic it was implemented back then on old Nid. And Zoe kinda has the same thing.
Yasuo vs Janna is the same thing. You completely ignore the INTENT ie the CORE DESIGN and PURPOSE of a spell. Again, I am not sure how many times I've reminded you already: "There is a difference between 2 champs having shields and 2 champs having the same core identities". (I added a Yasuo vs Riven comparison, as a continuation of my previous statement that Yasuo overall is effectively Riven and Yi in a blender, though you'd either missed that or I'd edited too late. That part is kinda the real meat of that)

The rest is just you having a vent and is ultimately not meaning much so I'm going to ignore the rest.

Point is, CT does use noticeably more copy-pasting than most other champ designers. Like really, it's quite obvious. Most of their line-up, save for a couple reworks and the one he co-worked with other designers like Zyra, have been based on another existing champions as their starting point or core identity of sort. I don't believe it's disputable to say so.

EDIT: (On "Yasuo's tornado has to be working exactly the same as Janna's because only then he can ulti". Well, maybe Yasuo can use other ways to knock people up instead of borrowing the very same tornado from Janna who he has no relationships with whatsoever? You know, it's kinda the designer's job to not re-use the same signature attack for 2 completely different champs just because? I mean maybe they tried and added EQ-nado to be a thing, but is 3rd Q tornado really necessary to be as it is, and not something else that can distinguish the champ more from another such as Janna or Riven? Which comes back to the initial point... CT over-borrows designs from the other champs on the roster)

ShonjlNov 27, 20175 votes

{quoted}

And yet the way Lucian handles and controls actually incorporates the concept of wielding two guns. MF's dual-wielding nature could be replaced by a Tommy Gun or an AK and make MORE sense rather than less. Hell, one skin of hers is literally her with two Tommy Guns.

The point of his abilities is that it has him cycle through his double-tapping play style after using them. Ability -> AA -> Ability -> AA, and so on, in that pattern. The result makes him feel like a dual-wielding gun-slinger. MF is entirely devoid of this feel and concept and you know this. Why are you trying so hard.

Reality: I'm not stupid. I don't even play Lucian, but this shit is obvious.

You JUST said that the core innovation of someone can be varied from other factors, such as tech limitation. You JUST said champs like Ivern are fine having super similar moves to others because of shit like "They don't put their shield on allies like Ivern does". Now you're comparing a life stealing singular spin to a DoT-style Beyblade? You're comparing a silence to a slow? You're comparing a fucking bleed debuff to a fucking hp regen buff?

This is what I mean when I say you guys are mentally draining. This is shit I shouldn't even have to correct, and yet here I am correcting it. Also, DARIUS'S ULT ISN'T AN EXECUTE. It gains more true damage, rather than physical, based on bleed stacks, but doesn't scale with missing health. Garen's ult doesn't scale with damage stats, and ONLY scales with missing health.

You're just ENTIRELY wrong here.

The hop comes from literally no one.

She has an aoe knock-up from an ally she tethers herself to at the start of the game. NO OTHER MARKSMAN has a knock-up, let alone, aoe, let alone tied to someone else.

The rend is at least comparable to Twitch.

Once again, bullshit claim.

So because Blitz has a pull, Nautilus, Kled, Thresh, and Leona should all be removed from the game or have their Q's removed. Got it. TOTALLY THE EXACT SAME SHIT.

Nid's spear still scales with distance...

Are you TRYING to get a rise out of me?

So you complain when it's an idea similar to someone else, but you ALSO complain when you think an idea is op while being completely original. If that's your mentality, you're gonna run out of ideas.

AND?

That's one of FOUR Q'S.

And you've skimmed over the fact that Janna's Q is significantly more difficult to use proactively, and is primarily designed to use reactively. In that sense, Yasuo's Q is more like a standard line of hard cc, whereas Janna's Q is a stronger defensive tool. And, once again, YASUO HAS FOUR Q'S. (More accurately, he has 3 with a possible bonus effect on the aoe variant)

SO HE CAN ULT.

...you're not doing this right now are you...

...you're really doing this...

...you're actually trolling me. I'm not responding past this point. I'm also blocking you.

Can you shut up dude. You sound like an idiot. You say these people are mentally draining? All I am hearing from you is BS and crying. LIterally the guy you are arguing with has been saying actual things in the game, giving actual facts from the game, giving actual similarities between champs, and you are over here crying about sheep mentality and other worthless stuff? You sound like the one going out of their way to be a pain in the ass.

How about you block yourself and your forums account since you clearly don't know shit and shouldn't be here.

OleandervineMar 14, 20181 votes

Zoe's Q is Oriana's Q->Q combo, condensed into a 2 part spell.

Azure HamsterNov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Like, you HONESTLY think MF and Lucian's the same? You think MF's game play incorporates actually utilizing her two guns cohesively more than they're just second-thought animations?

...

I'm with ChipNDip here. Good analysis.

Caitlyn

OleandervineMar 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how Zoe or Yasuo fall into this category of "recycling a ton of elements from other champs". And if you're gonna fault that, why not fault Ivern for having a shield and a "pet" mechanic? Why not fault Urgot for having a shield and a skill shot on Q? TONS of champs have skill shots. TONS of champs have heals/shields. TONS of champs have movement speed buffs and 3-hit passives. Just because one element or another may be similar to another champ doesn't mean it's shameless recycling. It'd be recycling if there wasn't a major difference between the final products of 2 champions. Like the Enchanters. The Enchanter class has a ton of recycling, but CertainlyT didn't design any enchanters.

Zoe actually is a shameless recycle of a TON of mages. Her Q is basically Orianna's Q->Q in rapid succession, without the need to use mana to recast the spell immediately, and a few other caveats built into to make it deal more damage. Her E is also a Morgana Q or Elise Cocoon with a delay and additional caveats. Her R is a more condensed version of LeBlanc's W without the damage or capability to move beyond where you cast it. Her W is about the only part of her kit that isn't shameless hocked from other kits, and even then, it's just PART of her W that's new - the whole Nami E part of it when you cast a summoner spell isn't unique at all. So if we want to claim Zoe isn't recycling a ton of elements from other champions, you need to explain how this is the case, because 95% of her kit utilizes gameplay elements that are already present in the game, with walls of text to add extra passives to them.

Furthermore, just like Orianna, Zoe's main gimmick is her QQ, a combo which Orianna has used since her inception for damage as well as repositioning her ball for the rest of her kit. Zoe doesn't have an identity that's terribly unique at all, aside from being super frustrating to play against and relying on RNG to have a skill be useful.

Kinkou OrderNov 23, 20174 votes

I would not call Yasuo, Zoe or Kalista at all beneficial to the game's well being.

chipndip1Nov 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kinkou Order,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V0p45nQA,comment-id=00000001000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-23T20:01:32.423+0000)

I would not call Yasuo, Zoe or Kalista at all beneficial to the game's well being.

I would, minus Kalista, but only because she's infinitely dashing.

Azure HamsterNov 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

anyone could come up with his ideas.

That is a load of unmitigated BS.

Caitlyn

EnigmaticMachineMay 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The point of CertainlyT IS to design champions like this. He designs way more imaginative and creative champs than other designers, especially for higher skill cap players.

Making overloaded kits does not qualify as creative. Vel koz was creative because his kit is all skill shot based and that means if you hit them it will proc a lot of dmg. With CertainlyBad he creates champs with spam-able movement abilities and stupidly overloaded passives. If you want to be creative and make good champs then look at the old designs because most of the time simplicity makes for more high skill cap game-play.

Demon King MaouNov 23, 20173 votes

zzz zoe isnt a bad champion

only gripe i have with her is that "Sleep" bullshit*[slayer-jinx-unamused]*

Meep ManNov 23, 20172 votes

Champion designers aren't responsible for the numbers or balance though, just the concept for the abilities. For example, for Zoe's Q, he made a:

Skill shot that can be redirected midflight and deals more damage the longer it has been moving in a direction

He didn't put any numbers on that, that's the balance team's job.

SEKAINov 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Champion designers aren't responsible for the numbers or balance though, just the concept for the abilities. For example, for Zoe's Q, he made a:

Skill shot that can be redirected midflight and deals more damage the longer it has been moving in a direction

He didn't put any numbers on that, that's the balance team's job.

The moment someone brings up distance-based damage (in a way it was implemented), in a game that had just been through a long and tremendous period of complaints and effort to remove the said mechanic from the champ that used to have it, means this designer who proposed such an idea clearly wasn't paying attention at all.

Worse, they even thought it's not only a great idea to bring it back, but also add re-directing capabilities on top of it too. And this is also on a champ that's supposed to be mobile, just like old Nidalee.

Numbers aside, that's already a big question mark there.

Leaf on BushMar 14, 20181 votes

The amount of downvotes here really show that the boards don't have the slightest clue about balance.

Like not even remotely, if changing parameters of spells such as, projectile speed, acceleration, hitbox, range, base damage, ap ratios, cd, mana cost, debuff/buff duration doesn't effect balance, then what does???

[sg-miss-fortune]

And you get downvotes for reminding them.... that's just baffling. This community is hopeless.

"But it's super toxic, anti-fun,hard to balance BabyRage"

Just shut up please, go back to school and learn math or something.

Queen of ThunderFeb 5, 20182 votes

Totally Agree.

His champs are just having super random and super toxic kits that are 0 fun to play against, are having barely counterplay and are rlly hard to balance.

He's creative but he sucks hard at making good champions.

ZeroSixTeenMar 14, 20182 votes

Could not agree more. Get this guy out! He consistently makes "one man army" champs they can do everything and they are all absolutely horrible to play against. several of them so bad to play against its worth dodging just to not have to play against them. He makes champs that are really fun to play, and REALLY REALLY bad to play against. if he worked on a PVE game he would actually do good. He has probably done more damage to the game than anyone else. Start a petition to get this guy reassigned to something else.

The thigh guyMay 7, 20192 votes

We just need to take every champion ct has touched ever, and disable them until they are reworked without locking their dev team in a room with a homeless man, a case of Red Bull and a singular box of viagra.

Great CreatorJan 30, 20181 votes

Oh shi... nope - the champions he make is good, fine and balanced, not as zed with duskblade :D CerainlyT is aweasome :) btw - only thresh Q need to be reworked like 0.01s stun or just move than thresh drag shamp. cause chain CC with damage atleast on 3-4 sec - not fun :D Zoe - jesus. you can kill her with lux as she minion. Yas.. - not fed him. w8 until wall - and he`s done.

Hi lm ZoeMay 9, 20181 votes

Ye I hate him! But I again love him! But I still hate him! (hate him because of Yasuo, love him because of Zoe, hate him because of Warwick, yes I know I should hate him because of Zoe 2 but, she's my main...)