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Maybe people DIDN'T want bot lane to be addressed?

chipndip1··21 votes·3,952 views

Like, why did the climate on the boards go a full fucking 180 from hating being crit for 1k damage to sucking Tristana's toes and begging her to return?

Like...didn't you guys WANT for marksmen to not be the lifeblood of every fucking team comp in the game like they've been for the greater half of a decade? Isn't that what people were screaming for Riot to change? Why is everyone turning on the decision NOW after marksmen are finally not 100% mandatory on every team comp?

I'm not crazy saying that I believe that's what people wanted, right? For marksmen to FINALLY not be kingpin of the game like they've been for over half a decade, right? I'm not crazy when I say that people said the "ADCIN2017LOL" meme was just marksmen complaining out of pocket after it transpired, even though it was a lil bit true, right? Like, do we REALLY want to shoot ourselves in the feet and go back to marksmen dominating the entire meta and everyone's priorities again, with "Protect Kog" comps and 4 man bot lane dives (they still do the dives anyway)? Are we REALLY trying to do that?

58 Comments

DerMangoJoghurt11 votes

Simple. It's because the boards don't have one unanimous opinion.

Teridax681 votes

Pretty much. Boards has always had its resident marksman mains, who have always opposed the larger criticisms directed towards marksmen and bot lane. Now that bot lane has been addressed, these players have become more vocal.

With this said, I also think part of the issue a lot of players take isn't simply the fact that bot lane got addressed, but rather the manner in which it did. There are still several marksmen that are abusively strong, and the fallout of these changes is that AD assassins have come back to the forefront, dealing even more damage than they used to, in an environment where damage has gone well past its saturation point. Meanwhile, several crit marksmen went from OP to near-unplayable, simply because they were refitted around an environment that simply isn't League in its current state. I personally have always supported nerfing marksmen, but I also advocated for marksmen to be given a variety of power curves, in part so that we precisely avoid landing into the current situation, where a whole bunch of marksmen are intended to scale late, at a time where games end at the point where they only begin to scale.

hhaavviikk11 votes

because ADC mains went to the forums to complain

AirKingNeo2 votes

I doubt this because the mage mains are still here.

RedEve7 votes

Let me ask you this if you were Riot, would you not realize how hard it is to listen to the community when most are: Salty, Biased, On "Alts", Lying about "Quitting", straight up trolling or complaining just to complain.

The Boards are filled with these posts every day. If anything, if a new player saw these boards, they'd run away without even trying the game. Even Riot knows the boards needs a revamp/rework (Said so on Reddit, btw this is also the reason why Riot listens to the Reddit Community more 'Or so people believe'). Looking at these will drive you nuts, my man.

Also to answer your question "Why is everyone turning on the decision NOW after marksmen are finally not 100% mandatory on every team comp?" This falls under "They're complaining just to complain" sure there's a good amount of Quality posts on the boards to "Fix" the "Issue" but really it's not an issue. Kind of like, if you "Think" of an issue and you "Know" the solution- doesn't mean the issue actually exists. (Also, everyone knew what was coming for a long ass time, they just didn't expect different champions to go bot- But considering how different champs went Bot lane the exact second the patch came down makes me think otherwise)

Btw, everyone knows that things will return back to normal eventually, I wish the boards would stop spam posting (It's basically spam at this point) and bring more glaring issues into view.

Jamaree7 votes

Because everytime something like this happens, normally at the behest of said constant screaming, this community never realizes what they are asking for until it is too late.

AugustHeatHaze2 votes

exactly, people just want something and they don't realize the consequences of it happening, same thing happens in overwatch except its worse, somehow.

remakoro1 votes

ADC not being mandatory is a great thing. Tanks not being viable is a separate issue that should actually be fixed and it impacts this meta heavily. If we had tanks in games and towers werent made from toilet paper things would be even better.

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

adc's aren't just not mandatory, they aren't viable at, especially crit adc's, thats not ok! all heros should be playable, not changing my mind.

"There is a difference between wanting tone down a class rather than have them removed from the game more or less"

variety is good, a class of heros not being usable in the actual meta meta is not. Adc's don't even have to be bot, just find a place for them somewhere, top, mid, idc,

remakoro1 votes

What is your criteria for viability? Cuz many ADCs are much more viable than many other champions and its still not a problem to win with ADC on your team.

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

usable at higher tiers and in pro play and not just ezreal, mf, etc. Don't give me that "no they are fine its fine" crap, its very clear adc's are NOT very usable at all because pro players known for playing adc, doublelift for example, are talking bout it.

Also honestly, playing some ranked, the games end so fast it doesn't feel like crit adc's are particularly viable in them either but no one knows better.

what other champion class is completely unviable? tanks? thats not ok either. It wasn't ok when assassins were supposedly in the same spot, though honestly i don't think theres ever been something thats this bad for an entire class. Its not ok ever to have an entire class type of heros unusable. Thats not diversity. Diversity is what dota has and is something id love to emulate while still keeping the structure of league. We shouldn't cheer when a whole class of champions isn't viable, the idea state of league is for every hero to have some place they fit.

remakoro1 votes

Diversity is what dota has and is something id love to emulate while still keeping the structure of league.

Holy shit. I guess you never played dota?

usable at higher tiers and in pro play and not just ezreal, mf, etc. Don't give me that "no they are fine its fine" crap, its very clear adc's are NOT very usable at all because pro players known for playing adc, doublelift for example, are talking bout it.

Good. So when do you want riot to buff nasus and teemo?

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

Holy shit. I guess you never played dota?

ive play 2073 hours of it, how is dota not diverse ahHAHAHAH seriously?? seriously dude? thats like one of the big differences between the games, dota is less structured and has more options for what you can do, at last years international i think only 4 heros were never played once, theres always a niche for all heros in solo q and almost all heros in pro play.

Have you not played it? This is like... really basic shit, i feel like you are ignoring reality here holy shit indeed. How are you defining diverse??? You can play heros in multiple role types in multiple lane setups. Its much more diverse than league. like... a lot more diverse.

I prefer league for the characters and ranked structure but if we could see more hero versatility coming from dota into league that would be amazing, id love to play adc solo top or mid or wherever.

Good. So when do you want riot to buff nasus and teemo?

Oh so you aren't actually reading my post got it tell me why this is a silly question not related to my post please?

Also ill answer your question even though it wasn't what i was talking about, yes, buff teemo and nasus, I have no issue with that, they both have sub 50% winrate which isn't always an indicator of being healthy but if you don't think they are healthy sure, buff em, im not some whiny player who irrationally hates certain heros so BUFF AWAY.

remakoro1 votes

ive play 2073 hours of it dota is less structured and has more options for what you can do

Sadly i have more. :( Yes dota does not have enforced rigid meta like league. But it has its own meta anyway. Most players just dont bother with it. If you didnt notice it... Well... Its your problem.

Dota has A LOT of almost forgotten or really rarely played champions. Some of them just unviable.

You can play heros in multiple role types in multiple lane setups.

This one is actually aint true. Heroes there have clearly defined roles by their abilities and there is nothing you can do about that. Some concepts straight dont exist there. Well we kinda almost lost them in lol atm as well... Like AP carry. Most of recent released champion are bound to one role/class so league gets more similar to dota day by day. Which i dont like at all.

Oh so you aren't actually reading my post got it tell me why this is a silly question not related to my post please?

Well... You said

usable at higher tiers and in pro play and not just ezreal, mf, etc. Don't give me that "no they are fine its fine" crap,

And this is exactly what you can say about Teemo and Nasus. By your own definitions of viability ADCs dont really have problems with it. While some champions like Teemo and Nasus are bound to be noob stompers for all eternity. Strong/viable in low elo - unviable/unplayable in high elo/pro.

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

ugh honestly i had a whole thing written down but i feel like you are just ignoring what i say or twisting it and this isn't a good time im going to just, not reply dude, keep thinking what you want, whatevever, I agree with what doublelift says in his video.

Malix Farwin7 votes

Maybe because of the group of people complaining are different?

remakoro2 votes

WOW. NO WAY> IT CANT BE THAT!!! BOARDS IS A HIVE MIND, right? RIGHT?

chipndip11 votes

We all get THAT. The real question is: When everyone blames Riot for not listening to the people, when they implement changes based on previously complained about grievances, what is Riot supposed to do? Just not bother anymore?

flibitydoo4 votes

We gained diversity, but it was limited to botlane

and like, the champs that have become playable botlane... it wasn't exactly like these champs weren't viable in other places too.

If anything we lost champ diversity on a global scale because about 15 or so adcs just dropped off the face of the earth

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

"If anything we lost champ diversity on a global scale because about 15 or so adcs just dropped off the face of the earth

EXACTLY and people keep saying "no no they are still viable" like?? ok?? why are pros known for playing adc benching themselves then...

Summonah123693 votes

Oh... so I guess me going 15/0/6 on Jinx was just a dream? :( .

saltran1 votes

Considering that you haven't played single game in weeks yes, it was a dream. (or you are posting with other account)

Summonah123691 votes

{quoted}

Considering that you haven't played single game in weeks yes, it was a dream. (or you are posting with other account)

I'm currently using a EUNE account, and yeah I got that KDA in a dream. :(

BrightWîngs3 votes

I will not deny they were too strong but its one thing to open up botlane and another to replace I mean just take a look at their win rates compared with their pick rates for example Kaisa sitting with a 47.82% win rate and a 18.00% pick rate thats awful Xayah with a 48.46% win rate and a 8.05% pick rate if you havnt caught on yet they have very bad win rates but pretty high pick rates they are being played a lot but still losing more an 50% of their games i mean hell Lucian has a 49.86% win rate which isnt bad but he has a fucking 24.19% pick rate hes almost played in 25% of games and just barely getting a 50% win rate the only ADs that are good right now are Jhin with a 51.39% win rate and 17.36% pick rate and MissFortune with a 53.19% win rate and a 10.79% pick rate you see the difference?

chipndip11 votes

Kai'Sa's pick/win rate seems perfectly fine from what you stated. She's supposed to be harder to play, and that pick rate is almost 1 in 5 games. That's...actually perfectly fine.

Like...what is your definition of "bad"?

BrightWîngs1 votes

{quoted}

Kai'Sa's pick/win rate seems perfectly fine from what you stated. She's supposed to be harder to play, and that pick rate is almost 1 in 5 games. That's...actually perfectly fine.

Like...what is your definition of "bad"?

A 47.82% win rate on any champion is terrible and if she is played that often and not even close to a 50% win rate is even worse she really isn't THAT hard

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Good sir, take a moment to ponder this statment of mine.

"There is a difference between wanting tone down a class rather than have them removed from the game more or less"

Because that is pretty close to what the traditional marksmen have had happen to them, even if they play well they are generally inferior to other picks and they have to struggle many times more just to get there.

Those people exist as well, i myself being someone who enjoys playing Ashe sits in that spot.

But now i am kinda stuck with MF and the like since the item 3142 item 3147 item 3095 item 3087 item 3036 item 3006 build makes it easy to 2 shot carries like Ashe before they even know what hit them, i have tested this to great success, and despite being a supposed early game build its proven immensely powerful even lategame.

And if they have GA you just shot them a third time to finish the deal once they get back up.

"Disclaimer, i have been playing MF for a long time even before stormrazor, i just chose her as she is more or less the only early game marksman i play"

What the traditional marksmen players want is for their picks to either be buffed early so they dont get crapped on so hard or have a lategame that actually justifies the misery of the early game they are facing.

The freelo mains are currently playing Lucian and kai sa if i understand it right........well and MF too now x)

saltran1 votes

As a MF player I would recoment you to change Shyv for RFC that has a better Q synergy.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

By the time i get static i kinda just need more damage, and static when critting deals a lot more than RFC does which is why i get it but i do appreciate the intent.

Before crit changes i actually played crit MF and i did get RFC out of the two exactly for the Q synergy.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

i wanted it to change. i still do. i ask every game that im given bottom if i can play a champ other than a marksman. people openly say that if i dont play a marksman they'll report me for trolling, afk, feed,dodge, etc.

:/ it sucks.

so i go marksman and lose lane because my support thinks it's cool to go dark seal 3 potions and give first blood.

saltran1 votes

You play Caitlyn with Grasp, AP onhit Shen and lane Fiddlesticks with Dark Harvest.

Don't worry, on bronze 5 you could always play whatever you wanted.

Trollmanship1 votes

Personally I just wanted ADCs to stop being assassins.

Riot in their infinite wisdom said 'fuck it' and just buffed ad casters to be even better assassins.

OtterlyLost1 votes

I never wanted changes like this, where they gutted my entire class and gave their lane to bruisers and mages... I just wanted to play Tristana...

AugustHeatHaze1 votes

the mob mentality in comp game communities is extremely hypocritical thats really all there is too it

this is why you don't balanced based off the mob

Love Anastasia1 votes

The part I most love of these changes is: Support shields and specifically Janna being op for 1 and a half year or so. Seems like nobody in Riot gives af about that. They nerf adcs and, in the next patch, they nerf shield supports.

Like, isnt it obvius that adcs are gonna fall if you nerf them and the supports that keep them op AT THE SAME TIME?

remakoro1 votes

But... Where is my compensation buff?

chipndip11 votes

Marksmen didn't fall off. The late game ones did, but not all marksmen. Early and mid-game ones are still fine.

Love Anastasia1 votes

Masrksmen felt too, at least 80 % of them. Only Lucian, Mf and Draven? Keep being useful

Anyways, what is the point of leave the stupid op shield supports for so many time and nerf them 1 week after nerf almost all the adcs?

Leto GT1 votes

At first, I thought it was a bad idea to create diversity in botlane because adc were an institutions and a big part of the game dynamic and ecosystem. But then, I realized that I didn't have to play ADC botlane anymore which turned out great because I do prefer to play mages. However, it only applies to laning phase. I still think adc have their usability. If tanks were to come back from the dead, it'll be increasingly important to have some ADC around too.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Because the rest of the game wasn't fixed. I for one love seeing more varity at bot, but i hat how we got there. The main reason is that adc got their power heavily delayd, while beeing just as bonkers as they always where once they get there. while the overall state of the game is so snowbally and earlygame focused that adc hardly reach their powerspike. However, once(if at all) snowball gets adressed, adc probably will return to their old mandatory state as their lategame is just as potent as it ever was.

Powercreep, especially damage and cc, poor state of voision and overloaded champ design all haven't been adressed, and this results in a CoD like fuckfest to a point where urf hardly feels different from normal play.

Most peeople only know they dislike the current state of the game without really beeing able to point their fingers at the issue, mostly because there is sooo much wrong with the game atm.

rtbf2216514121 votes

Honestly, there is a median.

Broken and 'Broken' are not in the middle. It's not black and white.

Riot is dealing with it anyway. Or at least from what they stated.

There is a way to make something viable without making something overpowered or over-nerfed.

Power Cosmic1 votes

Have to free the support role.

gabetheguy1 votes

because the boards are irrational. don't expect them to be rational. just don't.

AmazoX1 votes

Nobody liked ADCS having BPS 20 minutes in the match with an insanely high attack speed.

chipndip11 votes

Apparently people did from all the complaining I see. I fucking hated it though.

Veraska1 votes

Boards arent a hivemind and no one comes to the boards to talk about what a good job riots doing, the people enjoying the game are playing it, unless ur me and yr too busy to actually play it lol

Im happy that crit is bad until 4 items,i like not getting blown up because caitlyn players can click on me, crit makes sense now as a dps build, it just feels bad for crit players because everyone else gets to one shot squishies and the thing marksman are supposed to be good at killing- tanks, are pretty nonexistant rn

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Different people. Everyone wanted diversity in the bot lane so they cried out. Now that we have diversity in the bot lane salty ADCs players don't like it so they're crying out.

chipndip11 votes

There needs to be a way to be able to listen to community concerns without a vocal minority drowning everyone out and convincing everyone that whatever recent X Riot did is the worst balancing decision of the decade. I can never recommend this game to anyone I know because of this community. I never have and I probably never will because of it.

AR URF1 votes

I can see everyone with their opinions on the topic. My opinion is that those that didn't really complain about ADCs didn't really come to the boards because they had no reason to. If they had a reason to complain about say jinx damage back when item 3031 was 2.5x dmg item. They'd just get down-voted to hell by virtue of jinx being an ADC. Now that ADCs have been dumpstered, more ADC mains are coming to the boards to complain that wouldn't come here otherwise. You're simply just seeing the quiet majority starting to speak out.

NekoniClaws1 votes

Riot over-shot the mark. And I won't pretend to like the champions who are being sent bot.

So how did Riot overshoot when the numbers looked fine? The simultaneous nerfs to playing defensive / game length, which have been going on for months as these ADC changes were in production- two sets of balance changes combined. And why don't I like the new guys bot? Because a lot of the off-meta adc replacements are just giant health-bars that can kill you if you try and poke them when their flash is up. And if they're mages instead, I just have to pray my adc can dodge a snare? An adc player just has to try and survive laning phase- it's a snooze.

And no, I ain't no meta-slave. I enjoyed a lot of off-meta games before the changes, it's no different to how I felt before. If I want to climb in ranked games, I have to follow the meta, same as ever.

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