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Why can't we get a rioter's thoughts on Ornn?

Ben Sharpio··4 votes·4,455 views

All we've really gotten is "I think there is a skill curve that exists with Ornn, so we want to avoid buffing him too much".

Is that seriously all we have to offer on Ornn? Every single game i play him, a majority of the people on my team don't even know what he does or have completely forgot that he even exists. You gave no selling point to him that made people want to play him after his abysmal state upon his release.

What were your playtesters doing/building that made him seem like a decent pick?

How did he compete against other meta tanks that made him seem like a decent pick?

WHERE IS THE SKILL CURVE IN HIS KIT? (This is extremely important to me because i really want to know). Coming from someone who plays Sion, Ornn is a horrible example of what counterplay should be.

To elaborate on the point above ^ : You infest Ornn's kit with counterplay, SO much to the point where people would obviously play the better option. Sion is the same way, except 1 tricks are performing well with him and he stomps low elo so he gets away with being an ok pick.

Ornn? Shit at ALL elos. I check every single week, oh boy did he finally reach a good 50 percent winrate yet? No. And he won't ever until you do a little bit of thinking that goes beyond BUFF W, BUFF W, BUFF W.

32 Comments

RiotRiot Sotere17 votes

I think we may be somewhat blinded by our love for Ornn.

Let me explain: There is no champion we've talked more about in the past month on my team (Live Gameplay). There's no champion we've played more on Live over the past month. Playtest team also mentioned to me in passing that they have a disproportionate amount of Ornn mains and Ornn games on Live. There is something that draws us to Ornn and makes us think his cap is really high. There are so many optimizations to be made around utilizing his Living Forge passive. His ultimate has massive pick and team fight potential, but is frequently misused.

We recognize that he's not winning a lot of his games right now. We do think he has things that draw people towards him: buying in lane is addictive. Helping your team scale up beyond six items is quite appealing to players from what we've seen. Clapping people with hammers feels damn good, at least to me.

We buffed his mana costs last patch and I thought that would move the needle substantially. It didn't help him as much as I estimated, so we're following up in 7.20.

I think Ornn's highs are very HIGH. In 7.20 I tried to focus on making his lows not as painful.

  • Searing Charge (E) is more generous when charging into walls so you should have fewer (hopefully zero!) cases where your dash doesn't do a slam but it looks like your horns are grazing the wall.

  • Bellows Breath (W) is now max Health damage. I really wanted to push for this direction because it erases some odd optimizations, like wanting to Volcanic Rupture (Q) after Bellows Breath. A consistently feel bad moment for me was also estimating my damage incorrectly: my first trades with champions would be so impactful I'd all in and then be surprised by my damage ramping down. Hopefully this pays dividends in Ornn players assessing their kill threat.

  • Call of the Forge God (R)'s second cast is now instant. This was contentious because the planning and deliberate nature of Ornn's ultimate is partly what made it feel good for those who enjoyed it. But often due to incidental CC and timing issues, R was too difficult to utilize in team fights. I think after a brief re-learning curve, this will allow Ornn to have more consistent output in team fights.

Fütanari1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uzfrn0ew,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-08T21:24:52.536+0000)

I think we may be somewhat blinded by our love for Ornn.

Let me explain: There is no champion we've talked more about in the past month on my team (Live Gameplay). There's no champion we've played more on Live over the past month. Playtest team also mentioned to me in passing that they have a disproportionate amount of Ornn mains and Ornn games on Live. There is something that draws us to Ornn and makes us think his cap is really high. There are so many optimizations to be made around utilizing his Living Forge passive. His ultimate has massive pick and team fight potential, but is frequently misused.

We recognize that he's not winning a lot of his games right now. We do think he has things that draw people towards him: buying in lane is addictive. Helping your team scale up beyond six items is quite appealing to players from what we've seen. Clapping people with hammers feels damn good, at least to me.

We buffed his mana costs last patch and I thought that would move the needle substantially. It didn't help him as much as I estimated, so we're following up in 7.20.

I think Ornn's highs are very HIGH. In 7.20 I tried to focus on making his lows not as painful.

  • Searing Charge (E) is more generous when charging into walls so you should have fewer (hopefully zero!) cases where your dash doesn't do a slam but it looks like your horns are grazing the wall.

  • Bellows Breath (W) is now max Health damage. I really wanted to push for this direction because it erases some odd optimizations, like wanting to Volcanic Rupture (Q) after Bellows Breath. A consistently feel bad moment for me was also estimating my damage incorrectly: my first trades with champions would be so impactful I'd all in and then be surprised by my damage ramping down. Hopefully this pays dividends in Ornn players assessing their kill threat.

  • Call of the Forge God (R)'s second cast is now instant. This was contentious because the planning and deliberate nature of Ornn's ultimate is partly what made it feel good for those who enjoyed it. But often due to incidental CC and timing issues, R was too difficult to utilize in team fights. I think after a brief re-learning curve, this will allow Ornn to have more consistent output in team fights.

he needs a rework. not shitty buffs.

marpatt114 votes

{quoted}

he needs a rework. not shitty buffs.

Da fuk? [sg-zephyr] he literally came out weeks ago, so what, nunu, voli, and morde are down on those lists since a champ that LITERALLY JUST CAME OUT, "needs" a rework? are you high or somethin? [sg-lux-2]

Fütanari1 votes

{quoted}

Da fuk? [sg-zephyr] he literally came out weeks ago, so what, nunu, voli, and morde are down on those lists since a champ that LITERALLY JUST CAME OUT, "needs" a rework? are you high or somethin? [sg-lux-2]

the champ is stupid. I think riot used all their good champ points in the last 3 now we get this.... crap?

marpatt113 votes

{quoted}

the champ is stupid. I think riot used all their good champ points in the last 3 now we get this.... crap?

Actually its the most unique champ we've had in a while, Kayn used elementalist lux's bar system, xayah and rakans release was pretty new and their interactions with abilities were kinda unique, Ornn however has a system that hasn't ever been used in league before, being able to buy stuff from the shop while not at base. I am pretty sure Ornn doesn't need a rework, just some numbers here and there, maybe a new effect in an ability or something. Plus I can already tell you're either from A. or B. A. someone who tried ornn out for a bit, did poorly, now thinks they're crap. B. hears complaints about Ornn, agrees with them all with no facts to support them.

Linna Excel1 votes

Sotere, by the way you describe him, I'm starting to wonder if you guys made a champ who needs to be one tricked for 200 games.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Out of Curiousity, how do you think allowing him to cast Call of the Forge God's second cast while CC'd would impact him??

I personally felt like wanting to stay in the backline a bit to reliably get the second cast clashes with the fact that he's a vanguard who kinda wants to be in the frontline :P

Searing Charge (E) is more generous when charging into walls so you should have fewer (hopefully zero!) cases where your dash doesn't do a slam but it looks like your horns are grazing the wall.

That's pretty great, yeah I felt like that a bunch of times, and I've not even played him all that often lol

He also seems to be locked out of movements or casts for a propably pretty short amount of time that feels like ages after he uses E, that's something I noticed aswell.

Spideraxe1 votes

Did you these changes past Squad5?

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uzfrn0ew,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-08T21:24:52.536+0000)

  • Searing Charge (E) is more generous when charging into walls so you should have fewer (hopefully zero!) cases where your dash doesn't do a slam but it looks like your horns are grazing the wall.

  • Bellows Breath (W) is now max Health damage. I really wanted to push for this direction because it erases some odd optimizations, like wanting to Volcanic Rupture (Q) after Bellows Breath. A consistently feel bad moment for me was also estimating my damage incorrectly: my first trades with champions would be so impactful I'd all in and then be surprised by my damage ramping down. Hopefully this pays dividends in Ornn players assessing their kill threat.

  • Call of the Forge God (R)'s second cast is now instant. This was contentious because the planning and deliberate nature of Ornn's ultimate is partly what made it feel good for those who enjoyed it. But often due to incidental CC and timing issues, R was too difficult to utilize in team fights. I think after a brief re-learning curve, this will allow Ornn to have more consistent output in team fights.

The first and the third changes are welcome. I can accept the W change to %max health, but will it still be 20% at max rank? That’s a lot on the skill that he typically maxes first and is already feeling fairly overloaded. Is 20% on top of the 16% per Brittle proc really the best option?

I understand the idea that his damage estimation feels terrible as the fight drags on (personally, I wish the %current stayed as it helps to reduce a tank’s damage potential), but isn’t damage on tanks what a lot of people complain about? You’d hit just under The Sejuani double shatter with if you hit your full W and auto, and that’s a lot of damage for a basic ability. The change to %max HP damage I can work with, but the new percentages just seems like a fairly large buff to his damage, which it doesn’t seem like that’s really what he would need.

LordGeovanni1 votes

That W buff is really unnecessary the minimum current damage is already good enough. what needs to be fixed is the clunky delay before his e starts dashing. clunky all commands prior to w are erased and you wont even auto attack the nearest person after you come out of w. Maybe have a .25 delay before he starts auto attacking after he comes out of w so he doesnt immediately auto attack when some one else could use a cc instead (even though i think that his attack speed is slow enough for this not to be an issue). but sitting there for 2 seconds before you realize you have to input something else feels bad because its inconsistent with the rest of the game when you channel things. Still waiting on either that Q raising quicker or being able to control how far you can put it. Orrn could get like double damage on the second part of e when he destroys a player made terrain. Damage boost to R and make it global if your ram runs past you it keeps going in that way the ram gets hit back it doesnt fizzle out it just goes off of the map like ezreal ultimate.

rhuntern1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uzfrn0ew,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-08T21:24:52.536+0000)

I think we may be somewhat blinded by our love for Ornn.

Let me explain: There is no champion we've talked more about in the past month on my team (Live Gameplay). There's no champion we've played more on Live over the past month. Playtest team also mentioned to me in passing that they have a disproportionate amount of Ornn mains and Ornn games on Live. There is something that draws us to Ornn and makes us think his cap is really high. There are so many optimizations to be made around utilizing his Living Forge passive. His ultimate has massive pick and team fight potential, but is frequently misused.

We recognize that he's not winning a lot of his games right now. We do think he has things that draw people towards him: buying in lane is addictive. Helping your team scale up beyond six items is quite appealing to players from what we've seen. Clapping people with hammers feels damn good, at least to me.

We buffed his mana costs last patch and I thought that would move the needle substantially. It didn't help him as much as I estimated, so we're following up in 7.20.

I think Ornn's highs are very HIGH. In 7.20 I tried to focus on making his lows not as painful.

  • Searing Charge (E) is more generous when charging into walls so you should have fewer (hopefully zero!) cases where your dash doesn't do a slam but it looks like your horns are grazing the wall.

  • Bellows Breath (W) is now max Health damage. I really wanted to push for this direction because it erases some odd optimizations, like wanting to Volcanic Rupture (Q) after Bellows Breath. A consistently feel bad moment for me was also estimating my damage incorrectly: my first trades with champions would be so impactful I'd all in and then be surprised by my damage ramping down. Hopefully this pays dividends in Ornn players assessing their kill threat.

  • Call of the Forge God (R)'s second cast is now instant. This was contentious because the planning and deliberate nature of Ornn's ultimate is partly what made it feel good for those who enjoyed it. But often due to incidental CC and timing issues, R was too difficult to utilize in team fights. I think after a brief re-learning curve, this will allow Ornn to have more consistent output in team fights.

Have you considered giving him QOL buffs instead of damage? I think his damage and numbers are REALLY nice right now. I like the idea of the R buff you're talking about here. How about allowing E to slow if it doesn't his a wall? It gives a little wiggle room to not be reliant on walls or terrain, and since it's only a slow, it doesn't completely negate the strength of fighting near said terrain.

The other thing I thought about, although on second look I'm not entirely sure about the validity of, is allowing his E to recast his ult. It's practically the same animation and effect, and I don't speak for everyone, but there have been times where, in the heat of the moment, I got confused and tried to use E to recast.

Colbi Jak1 votes

{quoted}

Have you considered giving him QOL buffs instead of damage? I think his damage and numbers are REALLY nice right now. I like the idea of the R buff you're talking about here. How about allowing E to slow if it doesn't his a wall? It gives a little wiggle room to not be reliant on walls or terrain, and since it's only a slow, it doesn't completely negate the strength of fighting near said terrain.

The other thing I thought about, although on second look I'm not entirely sure about the validity of, is allowing his E to recast his ult. It's practically the same animation and effect, and I don't speak for everyone, but there have been times where, in the heat of the moment, I got confused and tried to use E to recast.

I like the changes that dropped for him on 7.20 personally but as much as I love playing Ornn, and part of me would relish my new favorite champ getting stronger, honestly I don't think he needs the slow if he misses terrain. He can literally create terrain with his his Q and sets up well for a CC combo doing so. I feel he doesn't need anymore buffs than what he got in 7.20 for the time being.

Side note to Riot, Not sure how much love you guys feel like Ornn is getting but I just wanted to say that he's my absolute favorite champion right now. The lore work you did for him is just awesome and his game play really felt like the character I read about in the stories. I know everyone has an opinion on how good he is right now but the biggest reason I play him as much as I do is simply cause it's fun.

Ornn

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Just my pov, but i think Ornn is already strong enough and don't need stat buff... At least for laning phase he hit hard enough despite... as most tank (its stupid if u ask me btw).

rtbf125513271 votes

please for the love of all things i am the original Ornn Bot of oce please please give him back his unstopable on his w or place it on his ult so hes a true demi god at heart

Ahris2 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Ornn/

Best Ornn has 57.XX% winrate

For reference best Ahri has 55.XX% winrate.

He already has a high winrate when played by mains, so ofc Riot isnt going to buff him much. He is like Ryze. Played by mains and he destroys the game.

edit: though i would say Ahri is a trash midlaner so it is a bad comparison.

Ben Sharpio1 votes

how does that website work exactly? I looked up scarra on NA and he has a 61 percent winrate with Ornn. How does that website calculate these stats?

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Averages.

Ahris1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Corsair Sion,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Uzfrn0ew,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-08T20:59:26.252+0000)

how does that website work exactly? I looked up scarra on NA and he has a 61 percent winrate with Ornn. How does that website calculate these stats?

Takes the average of all ornn mains(with X number of games) if I understand it right.

Also you even got a rioter to comment.

PhearBunny2 votes

I don't think Ornn is bad. I think hes good even, I just think its impossible to notice....Because the meta consists of Tank Buster+Enchanter and everyone else is just fodder.

This Is Your Dad1 votes

He could use a better passive. Buying in shop is cool, but hardly anyone gets his upgraded items because they're not worth it. I'd suggest new passives on upgraded items instead of raw stats, to allow people to use it before very very end game.

Spideraxe1 votes

I know Riot Sotere already answered your stuff but you can always reach out to Squad5 on twitter for Ornn and Ivern thoughts since he made them

Iota Theta1 votes

While I agree that buffing W isn’t the best option, he isn’t crap at all elos. Idk what sites you’re checking, but leagueofgraphs.com shows him at 46.2% at diamond+, which is just above Zac, Naut, and Gragas. The only Vanguards above 50% at that elo are Sion at 50.7 (looks like he’s good at more than just low elo), Maokai at 50.4, then Rammus at 52.4 and Sejuani as the highest at 54.9. He’s hovering at the lower middle of the pack, which is still fairly good for a tank.

What he doesn’t need are damage buffs, but yes, buffing W will do little now with all that it already does.

LordGeovanni1 votes

The skill curve for tank champions is for allies to make use of the tanks 1 cc rotation. Orrns cc rotation is pretty much his ult since you cant hit q E. but the delay on the come in and out means that you will rarely hit it on a good amount of people. the rest of ornns mastery is having a tank to initiate so you can be a disruptor basically impossible in solo que because people dont want to be tanks because tanks are basiclly less powerful supports if people see one tank no way in hell are they gonna pick another mostly because since tanks are robbed of all their damage they arent a threat if people dont follow up on their engage and people in solo que never follow up on your engage unless your team has a numbers advantage so you realisticlly have to engage pick some one off and survive long enough for you team to dick around register than you have numbers advantage then walk to join you.

DöömFjjst1 votes

Ornn is honestly fine, you just gotta stack HP and Damage, ignore the E althought it scales on MR and ARMOR he is mundo, and mundo is not tank tanky, is just giant health monster, what you need to is Q and E a 0.25 second later and you will see how well it syncs

as for W MY GOOODDD

get item 3151 and watch the damage shred and get item 3022 for a sexy follow up, its truly a marvelous site and I love how they fix and made him even stronger.

so far I take item 3020 item 3022 item 3151 item 3001 item 3083 item 3071 upgraded version

Colbi Jak1 votes

{quoted}

Ornn is honestly fine, you just gotta stack HP and Damage, ignore the E althought it scales on MR and ARMOR he is mundo, and mundo is not tank tanky, is just giant health monster, what you need to is Q and E a 0.25 second later and you will see how well it syncs

as for W MY GOOODDD

get item 3151 and watch the damage shred and get item 3022 for a sexy follow up, its truly a marvelous site and I love how they fix and made him even stronger.

so far I take item 3020 item 3022 item 3151 item 3001 item 3083 item 3071 upgraded version

I haven't tried that build. I'll give it a shot and see how it plays. Thx for sharing.

Ornn

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