Nah guys, minion block totally isn't an issue

Theorchero·Aug 27, 2016·122 votes·5,794 views

https://i.gyazo.com/80c8493d51a11fa3a68fd44984b3d3a6.gif

104 Comments

MatezoideAug 28, 201646 votes

What the people that defend this dont understand is that nobody is mad at minion block itself.

Minion block has existed in League since forever.

But this? This is absolutely ridiculous. 3 minions and Shen is completely trapped. He cant even awkwardly walk through them like you would in earlier seasons, he is legitimately snared. Even if he killed a caster minion, one of the melees was ready to take the place of the one away from Ekko, while if he killed one of the other two, he would have to go completely around them, even closer to Ekko.

And it isnt just minion block. Colision has been an issue for a very long time. Trundle puts his pillar near a wall and you are stuck. Your champion will actively take a longer path if theres a single minion on the way. Melee champions can barely CS or trade inside waves because of fear of getting stuck.

This is not how minion block is supposed to work. You should be punished if you are surrounded by minions, thats fine, but when half a wave alone is enough to completely turn you into a sitting duck? Even your own allied minions? Thats is an issue. And what champions suffer the most from this? Immobile ones, especially melee.

Hecarim could go through minions since forever, and that was never an issue. The only reason he actually became broken is because of how opressive this mechanic is.

MaizieaAug 28, 20162 votes

It goes both ways, plenty of people complaining about minion block just expect to be able to run through minions and have nothing happen whatsoever.

Gnart Even CloseAug 28, 20161 votes

ok, first of all most people don't expect that. and second of all, why is that even such a bad thing? is it because people can hide in their wave to dodge skillshots? because if that's the problems, then the mechanic could just be changed so that champions displace minions instead of get blocked by them. everybody is happy that way, since you have to move the minions and thus can't just hide in your creeps, but also don't get killed by your own minions.

ElikainAug 28, 20163 votes

I see no problem with Darshan's Shen. He dashed right in the Bermuda's Triangle of 3 caster minions and since his hitbox was larger than any of the spaces in between them, he has gotten stuck and minions were already focused on top of him, not moving an inch. This was just an unlucky situation. Very, very rarely happens unless certain conditions are met.

I'd only accept champions displacing minions in situations where champions manage to cram themselves in a space much smaller than their hitbox, which is exactly how this situation looks to me. So yes, although an unlucky situation for Darshan, this particular minion block looks fishy. Although this is an intended function of minion block, because Shen's hitbox was much larger than the minion space he managed to get himself stuck in, he effectively got snared until the minions that blocked him were dead.

Pika FoxAug 28, 20162 votes

The issue is that he didnt make any real mistakes, and got punished for it harshly. As a player, it is nearly impossible to tell how minions are going to react to your movements exactly, and if youre going to get "stuck" inside them as a result. He tried to taunt ekko, and failed. He dashed into some minions. His punishment should have been free damage from ekko from the dash and minion agro for added damage. NOT minion blocked into being unable to move and dying for free due to something he couldnt have predicted nor prevented.

ElikainAug 28, 20161 votes

Again, this doesn't look like a bug. Minion block works as intended except that Darshan managed to find a special case where minion block is way too harsh and should be impossible as he is a much bigger target than the space he managed to get stuck in.

Aurelion Sol's and Kindred's bugs existed from the moment they were shipped to live and yet, the bugs were only discovered in LCS because they were ridiculously tricky to reproduce. The chance of them being discovered is so low but it still happened, after a number of games - and in LCS no less, documented on a recording. I'm only saying that this looks like such a case as minions don't travel in that formation, just waiting for a poor soul to fall for their elaborate trap.

Pika FoxAug 28, 20161 votes

I never stated it was a bug, i stated it was a major issue that needs to be addressed because this is not healthy for the longevity and playability of the game to have a random mechanic that removes all player input until they die for free, without any input from the enemy team.

And you dont even need a special case for this to happen, it can happen merely walking through lane depending on minion pathing and wave size. Its happened to me a few times as support trying to freeze the minions before tower for my ADC.

ElikainAug 29, 20161 votes

Again, the minion blocking is working as intended but there may be a few edge cases where this is too harsh. It didn't happen to you as you described because melee minions will attack you from the front while ranged minions will attack you from the back, all from one side. They will never try to pincer you in their attack formation, preventing you from moving.

This only happens in certain rare cases where people foolishly attempt to plow through a minion wave, only to find themselves focused by all of them because they are the only target in sight or they have attacked a champion and a Call for Help has been issued by all minions who switched focus on the attacker and started following him. Things only get worse for the attacker if he's inside the minion wave and then the minion block becomes apparent as minions can quickly make walls from being close to each other and the attacker having to pathfind his way out of there.

Pika FoxAug 29, 20161 votes

"They will never try to pincer you" Not entirely true. They attempt to attack what is nearest, and move to get in range to do so. Given a big enough wave, and some rng pathing, they can swarm around you and minimize your own movement. This is especially true when your own minions clash against them.

And this is not "working as intended". This kind of scenario is unintended, its just a side effect from how they want it to function, but it clearly still needs updates to prevent this kind of scenario. Especially when this behavior stops proper gameplay, such as wave tanking to stall, or in this case, a decent attempt at a trade. Even assuming he landed the taunt, he would have still died, even though he made the correct play.

Warlord ZudaneAug 29, 20161 votes

He didn't make any real mistakes? He dashed into a group of minions. That's a mistake.

Pika FoxAug 29, 20161 votes

Yeah, no. Shen at his level can tank minion agro for a few seconds. If he landed the taunt he could have out damaged ekko for the small trade and backed off. It also would have stalled the wave a small bit, as the minions would have focused him over his own minions for a few seconds.

It wasnt a "mistake", his mistake was missing ekko.

DeynaTaggerungAug 28, 20161 votes

Well actually your allied minions are programmed to move aside after a half second or so. It's because they were enemy minions and he only got into that spot by using a dash that goes through them.

To be clear, THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED MINION BLOCK SINCE AT LEAST SEASON 3. They had that little experiment last year and everyone hated it so they went back to their original code. Stuff like this has been happening since forever, and since it's so infrequent provided you're not being a goober it's never really been a problem.

The other issue is it's a pretty hard thing to fix. You shouldn't be able to walk through minions like they're not there, so now we have some mechanic that impedes movement. But you can't just make an exception if a champion can't move allowing you to go through because that sounds like a great way to introduce bugs to the game. Also how do you know if someone's really stuck, sometimes you can move like a tiny bit but can't get far so how do we account for all of these factors properly?

ArkatraAug 28, 20164 votes

They DID change minion block at preseason. Check the early season6 patches. You'll suprise.

BloodyTomponAug 29, 20161 votes

Which was reverted back to the same functionality. I mean, it was changed technically, but it was moved back so in a comparison there is no difference.

ArkatraAug 29, 20161 votes

They did revert the changes of "behaviour of a minionwave", but the minion collision changes have stayed.

BloodyTomponAug 29, 20161 votes

They reverted both.

DemiMaxAug 29, 20161 votes

They removed that part from Hecarim passive, its now on his E, and if i recall Fizz is also able to walk through units permanently, so why isnt Hecarim too?

UnpaladinAug 27, 201634 votes

Rest in Peace CLG Darshen your death will (hopefully) not be in vain

adidasAug 27, 201620 votes

Such a fuckin joke

Handy Sandy Aug 27, 201615 votes

Yea, I never got hit by a nidalee spear and instantly died because I couldn't dodge it because of minions. Yep, never happened to me...

item 3070

SwiftKitten88Aug 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yea, I never got hit by a nidalee spear and instantly died because I couldn't dodge it because of minions. Yep, never happened to me...

nid spear dones't GO through minions. it would hit the minions.. not you.

if you get caught by ENEMY minions.. that's your own fault...

Handy Sandy Aug 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

nid spear dones't GO through minions. it would hit the minions.. not you.

if you get caught by ENEMY minions.. that's your own fault...

I was stuck between a wall and the minions walking down the lane T_T

FreezerFlareAug 28, 201611 votes

Let singed ignore unit collision pls

RiteshAug 27, 201610 votes

No way Riot can ignore it now lmao

Starfish HAug 28, 20169 votes

I mean he dashed into a group of minions what else would happen? And there's no point here since people want ally minion block gone. That's enemy minions. So yeah it isn't an issue.

General Esdeath Aug 28, 201613 votes

I'd prefer if it was all gone.

SinlaireAug 28, 201615 votes

minions should atleast slowly shuffle out of the way instead of standing there staring you in the face going, "well this is a little awkward for the both of us" and not doing a damn thing about it.

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 20166 votes

That's not "unfair" minion block (pretty unlucky though)

Remember how they removed Hecarim's perpetual ghosting and he dropped straight to shit-tier and can no longer be played top?

That's because being able to walk through minions is OP and frustrating when you have nothing to hide behind as a top laner.

Hecarim's old laning pattern was: Walk through minions > Q > Walk back and the opponent can't retaliate because they can't follow thru minions AND abilities don't draw minion aggro

Now imagine Renekton, Riven, Darius, etc being able to do this with the only difference being you can follow them (not that you would want to). And it wouldn't work if they removed ally minion block but not enemy minion block because whoever had the bigger minion wave to hide behind would win every single trade no matter what

General Esdeath Aug 28, 201625 votes

Hiding behind minions is for skill shots and Grave's AA, not for hiding from a melee range champ.

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 20164 votes

Did you ever play against season 5 Hecarim?

General Esdeath Aug 28, 20161 votes

Yeah, I did. I used CC and kiting. Or I took a tank and his burst was useless.

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 20163 votes

I used CC and kiting. Or I took a tank and his burst was useless.

What does any of that have to do with Hecarim's laning phase? That's what I'm talking about here.

You're telling me that at levels 1-3 you had enough CC by yourself to stop Hecarim? Or enough attack speed to kite him? Or enough defensive items to resist him?

Unless you mained Gnar/Kennen, the only champs that actually had enough CC/kiting potential at that point in the game, then you're thinking of the wrong thing.

I KNOW Season 5 Hec was OP because I used him to climb through the ranks, I wasn't even that special at Hec either. He was so cheesy because of his oppressive ghosting passive in addition to his ability to run Teleport/Ignite. The only thing I had going for me was that I had watched a replay of Dyrus doing it so I knew about the cheese and nobody else in Silver did.

General Esdeath Aug 28, 20163 votes

Levels 1-3 he didn't have enough damage. And when I saw him I just took Vayne or Kennen top. Was fun watching him charge E and I would just use their E's to get away. And no shit you climbed with cheese in Silver. I still win in gold with Riven because of the blue buff minion cheese Dekar showed me.

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 20163 votes

Levels 1-3 he didn't have enough damage

Bullshit, now I know for a fact you're lying

You either played against really bad Hecarim players or you haven't played against Season 5 Hecarim top lane.

Bladerunner7777Aug 29, 20161 votes

Levels 1-3 he didn't have enough damage

ofc Hecarim doesn't magically 100-0 at level 3 like maybe a Leblanc. This is how you play Season 5 Hecarim since you clearly don't seem to know:

Start Wolves for level 2

Recall and TP top

Walk through minions to get to enemy

Walk away

Walk up

etc

Once you poked them down a decent amount, go in and start spamming Q mixed with auto attacks

Once the enemy is committed, pop W and ignite. It is almost impossible to outdamage the amount of healing Hecarim gets with Q damage + ignite damage

Very few champions in the game could win a level 2 trade with Hec unless they were also a lane bully and they also took ignite (Renekton and Darius were pretty good against him).

Also, Hecarim couldn't get in range to Q a ranged champ such as Kennen/Gnar so obviously he can't kill them. Why did you even bother bringing up "how I beat Hec last season with ranged champs" when this is a discussion about creep block and Hecarim's old laning pattern vs melee champions (the majority of toplaners).......

Also, I found this funny:

I still win in gold

Gold 5 0 lp xd

General Esdeath Aug 29, 20161 votes

I'm not playing on Angus, glad you're trying to insult me because you lost an argument online :) And they said Nami mains are friendly. Smh. Found the one in a million.

Dominick DestineAug 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Remember how they removed Hecarim's perpetual ghosting and he dropped straight to shit-tier

Uhhh https://champion.gg/champion/Hecarim

You want to try again?

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 201617 votes

Do you even know what I'm talking about?

This nerf was at the very beginning of the season, ever remember seeing Hecarim around that time? He had around 44% winrate if I remember correctly

edit: I like how you didn't keep the "and can no longer be played top" part of the quote. Then you click champion.gg and you see 93% role rate for jungle when last season it was about 50/50 Top/Jungle

xScarfyAug 28, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Hecarim's old laning pattern was: Walk through minions > Q > Walk back and the opponent can't retaliate because they can't follow thru minions AND abilities don't draw minion aggro

That sounds like Yasuos current laning pattern: Dash through some minions with E, hit you with Q and dash back with E.

Bladerunner7777Aug 28, 20167 votes

I believe Yasuo's Q draws minion aggro though, unlike Hecarim

Hecarim was walking through minions, pressing Q, and walking back at literally no penalty at all. The only way to beat it was "be a ranged champ"

JSTIN8Aug 29, 20161 votes

Or play a sustaining tank like nasus and watch him burn through mana

Bladerunner7777Aug 29, 20161 votes

u just triggered me

I forgot how much Nasus countered Hecarim. Once you're withered there's almost nothing you can do as Hec in a fight.

In Season 5 if I ever got stuck in this matchup I would just rush Ninja Tabi Homeguards (I did this every game regardless) and try to snowball botlane with a Homeguard TP as soon as possible.

DemiMaxAug 29, 20161 votes

Don't understand the downvotes, you're right.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoAug 28, 20163 votes

item 3046 what minion block?

KensueAug 28, 201630 votes

[deleted]

l Helios lAug 28, 20162 votes

Meanwhile... Fizz

Not saying you're wrong. It's just he gets a ghosting passive. Sucks man.

LatetotheRaceAug 28, 20164 votes

That's why he was doing so well top imo. Easy and free harass, he usually didn't even have to use trickster to back off after a trade.

l Helios lAug 28, 20165 votes

It's really bad. Imo, the passive isn't healthy and does nothing but make him frustrating for top laners. I don't mind the AA reduction, but the ghosting needs to go. There's better things that could be done to make Fizz not cancer.

BloodyTomponAug 29, 20161 votes

Shit! More people are discovering the Freelo ADC Xerath build!