How about bringing back junglers to...well, Jungle?

PaffWasTaken·Apr 19, 2018·71 votes·18,044 views

Remember the time where Junglers farmed monster and took epic ones as objectives?

Today they farm toplaners and take botlane as the objective. You can't deny it; junglers don't need to farm anymore to be impactful, they just need to start ganking/camping lanes at 3 minutes to be relevant. This feels horribly wrong since everything that happens in the game while in the laning phase is just relevant to the jungler: you can't fight your opponent laner at all without fearing getting ganked in return, so its almost a must to wait for your jungler early. You can't push at all at top since its basically asking to get ganekd by the enemy jungler. There's little to no lane duels because of this, so please, bring back the Junglers to farm more in their jungle, since its their place. Perma-ganking shouldn't exist

Edit: Wow, this thread really got split in half... on one side we have laners who are sick of being dependant of their jungler to do anything, and on the other we have the junglers who quite enjoy the fact that they lead the game. I admit, the jungle seemed pretty boring before when compaired to today's jungle, but giving you guys more fun shouldn't mean that laners (top and mid, mainly) should rely completely on you to have theirs, hency why Riot should find a middle ground

76 Comments

MorganFreemanBotApr 19, 201850 votes

So let me get this straight:

Boards complained for two years straight about junglers farming. They said that they didn't gank enough, had too much control of objectives, were too heavily rewarded for afk farming in a situation where they didn't have to risk laning against someone, and would emerge from the jungle in mid game (always with a fully stacked feral flare / devourer enchant, according to boards) and run an unholy rape train on the enemy team.

Now boards is complaining that the jungle is too gank centric; that the junglers spend too much time camping and ganking lanes when jungle camps have DECADES long respawn timers, offer low amounts of gold, and deal more damage than they used to.

Make up your fucking mind. The jungle either has to be farm centric or gank centric. If you have camps with respectable respawn times that reward appreciable amounts of gold and xp, farming will ALWAYS be superior to ganking because it does not depend on another player cooperating.

Ben SharpioApr 19, 201815 votes

{quoted}

So let me get this straight:

Boards complained for two years straight about junglers farming. They said that they didn't gank enough, had too much control of objectives, were too heavily rewarded for afk farming in a situation where they didn't have to risk laning against someone, and would emerge from the jungle in mid game (always with a fully stacked feral flare / devourer enchant, according to boards) and run an unholy rape train on the enemy team.

Now boards is complaining that the jungle is too gank centric; that the junglers spend too much time camping and ganking lanes when jungle camps have DECADES long respawn timers, offer low amounts of gold, and deal more damage than they used to.

Make up your fucking mind. The jungle either has to be farm centric or gank centric. If you have camps with respectable respawn times that reward appreciable amounts of gold and xp, farming will ALWAYS be superior to ganking because it does not depend on another player cooperating.

the worst part about jungling right now is when your team falls behind and takes your camps, AS WELL as you being counterjungled by the enemy and youre left with fuck all to do because you have 0 map pressure/0 winning lanes and the camps take so fucking long to respawn. It's just so awkward atm.

GigglesOApr 19, 201810 votes

Maybe I didn't ask for them to change it away from them just faming and leaving me 1v1... there needs to be a happy medium. Ganking shouldn't be a free kill.

MorganFreemanBotApr 19, 201812 votes

{quoted}

Maybe I didn't ask for them to change it away from them just faming and leaving me 1v1... there needs to be a happy medium. Ganking shouldn't be a free kill.

Good news: Ganking isn't a free kill.

Ganking is far more common than it used to be (due to the jungle redesign to accomplish exactly that), but overall it's not much easier than it's ever been.

Nausicäa Apr 19, 201810 votes

Ya except you're wrong. Ganking is a free kill a lot of the time depending on mid/jungle combos and the fact that damage in this game is now utterly retarded.

Mid laner CC's you, long gap closer jungler comes in, you're dead if you dont flash even with 0 items between them.

GigglesOApr 19, 20182 votes

I was gonna tell that guy bull shit. Has he not seen the 1v2 ganks of seasons 1-4 where you could either a walk out, or b potentially get a double kill?

Feel ApathyApr 20, 20185 votes

The lee sin with elder lizzard,tiamat landing a Q and splashing 3 people for a tripple kill...

They complain about a warwick running at them in a straight line these days..

GigglesOApr 20, 20184 votes

I’ll raise you a I’ve banned Lee every game I could since he’s been released.

EnloctApr 19, 201811 votes

{quoted}

So let me get this straight:

Boards complained for two years straight about junglers farming. They said that they didn't gank enough, had too much control of objectives, were too heavily rewarded for afk farming in a situation where they didn't have to risk laning against someone, and would emerge from the jungle in mid game (always with a fully stacked feral flare / devourer enchant, according to boards) and run an unholy rape train on the enemy team.

Now boards is complaining that the jungle is too gank centric; that the junglers spend too much time camping and ganking lanes when jungle camps have DECADES long respawn timers, offer low amounts of gold, and deal more damage than they used to.

Make up your fucking mind. The jungle either has to be farm centric or gank centric. If you have camps with respectable respawn times that reward appreciable amounts of gold and xp, farming will ALWAYS be superior to ganking because it does not depend on another player cooperating.

No that is completely a false dichotomy.

Camps that give no gold and take forever to respawn means you HAVE to gank.

Camps that are super rewarding means you shouldn't gank unless its easy/safe/free/etc.

In both cases your choice is made for you and that is the problem. I should have to make a decision between doing the two, not have it be obvious 100% of the time.

MorganFreemanBotApr 19, 201811 votes

{quoted}

No that is completely a false dichotomy.

Camps that give no gold and take forever to respawn means you HAVE to gank.

Camps that are super rewarding means you shouldn't gank unless its easy/safe/free/etc.

In both cases your choice is made for you and that is the problem. I should have to make a decision between doing the two, not have it be obvious 100% of the time.

Except that's not how it works.

Ganking vs farming can be explained pretty simply; Ganking is risk for reward, farming is no risk for reward.

That immediately creates problems, because both outcomes give a reward but not a risk. As a result ganking is high risk for high reward; this has ALWAYS been true and will literally never change.

This leaves the balancing level on the camps; the risk (aka the damage they deal) needs to be tuned properly for the reward (gold and xp given). Currently the reward for farming is absolute shit; you get negligible gold for surprisingly high amounts of damage, and you also can't 'just keep farming' forever because you run out of camps.

Now it's not the respawn timer which is a problem. The s2, s3, and s4 (to a lesser extent) jungle all gave you the option to power farm because of how quickly camps respawned.. The problem was that the damage and / or experience + gold ratio was off. You could power farm, but camps gave so little xp and gold that it wasn't worth it. A single kill was worth the gold and xp of 3 camps BEFORE you factor in objective pressure and what you can gain from minions.

S5 and S6 were the swing. The jungle was swung to having a gold stream close - but not quite as good as - a solo lane if you power farmed it. A successful gank was still worth 2 camps + all of the other bonuses, but why would I risk it as a solo que jungler? I don't know my laners, they may not participate in the gank / bait the fight in and I may totally waste my time, which sets me behind the enemy jungler who's power farming. Or even worse, I may die to the enemy and lose even more.

The risk vs reward here is super important. A farm worthy jungle is AWFUL for junglers because it makes it the absolute most punishing role in the game, because we can only farm or fight. We don't get to do both. As a result season 5-6 were characterized by the jungler who fell behind (generally by dying / failing a gank) staying FAR behind, losing all of their objective and lane pressure as they scrambled to try and stay relevant.

This is where we got catchup xp from; so that junglers didn't have to power farm in order to not have a gigantic level deficit.

Now we're to a point where farming is important - you need to clear to stay relevant on levels due to catchup xp and camps actually give respectable amounts of gold - but the respawn timers make power-clearing literally impossible.

The current jungle literally is the happy medium; both farming and ganking are important, but junglers do not lose all relevance and importance the first time they fail a gank and / or die.

Ark Angel HFBApr 20, 20185 votes

Farming in the jungle should be a risk...

That is the fucking problem.

It should be a risk of you spending HP and Mana to take the camp, and the reward should be in line.

But since the camp has no risk... and takes very long to come back.

There is not risk AND little reward so people have pretty much stopped doing it as a main play style.

You can win a game by ganking as a jungle, you can't win a game by taking every camp as it spawns and all the dragons during laning... that is a problem.

MorganFreemanBotApr 20, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Angel HFB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=0006000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T17:48:06.578+0000)

Farming in the jungle should be a risk...

That is the fucking problem.

It should be a risk of you spending HP and Mana to take the camp, and the reward should be in line.

But since the camp has no risk... and takes very long to come back.

There is not risk AND little reward so people have pretty much stopped doing it as a main play style.

You can win a game by ganking as a jungle, you can't win a game by taking every camp as it spawns and all the dragons during laning... that is a problem.

The current early game jungle is the most dangerous it's ever been. It's actually so dangerous that smite now has a healing factor; something which was never needed prior to the current camp tuning.

Beyond that, we've actually had what you're asking to before; a jungle which beats the absolute snot out of champions early game, and doesn't give them any powerful tools (Talisman / machete / smite heal) to recover from it. The problem is that this sort of jungle amplifies the problem I mentioned, and heavily favors invades.

When this has happened before, the entry bar has been inordinately high. Primarily because said bar was "Can you survive the Elise / Lee / Vi meeting you at your second buff camp?"

If the answer was no then thanks but no thanks; you simply weren't a viable jungler. Anywhere. You were not welcome because the power picks were SO powerful that they'd clear their jungle, clear yours, and kill you into the bargain.

Furthermore: Jungling shouldn't be a pve ordeal, because that's boring as shit. Making camps too dangerous - regardless of reward - means that the best junglers are the ones who kill the enemy jungler, which is the wrong way to move things because it makes the viable pool extremely small.

The ultimate reality, and the one which most of the lazy players on Boards won't like, is that we've actually never had a better jungle than we do now. This one has a (decent) balance between encouraging you to clear it and farm it, but also not letting you afk farm. It also hurts and taxes junglers enough that invades are possible (depending on MU) and you're not always healthy enough to gank.

The primary negatives are death timers, tower weakness, and how mind-blowing fast ADC's hit their insane power spikes. This takes the jungler role and warps it to basically being a second support; get a little action in top lane early on, then center every single decision you make on botlane. Successful lane sweeps around the 7 - 10 minute mark easily lead into a first tower (this isn't the jungler's fault; it's Riot's fault to making towers so squishy) at which point the early game officially ends and mid game rolls around.

Most issues with 'junglers' right now are bleed over from ADC's and towers, because Jungler's are uniquely effected the strength of every objective, and laner, on the map.

Ark Angel HFBApr 20, 20182 votes

"The current early game jungle is the most dangerous it's ever been. It's actually so dangerous that smite now has a healing factor; something which was never needed prior to the current camp tuning."

And just like that you show how you don't fully grasp the jungle's history or the current state of the jungle camps powers...

Season 2 added EACH camp restoring mana and hp because of how hard it was wrecking people... it was based on % missing HP&Mana.

Then they shifted that to Red buff with smite having effects on camps... red buff being a major heal...

Then a smite upgrade would even allow for it to heal as it has for a good while now.

Now red buff and smite split that function...

The talk of ADC being too strong is on point, but what you don't realize is that at high level play in all of those seasons far more champs worked than you are saying. Naut and Sej were monsters... Assassins were in a good place, mages were still strong in the jungle as well with Fid and Diana being wicked in the right hands.

In short as much as you think this jungle is tough... it is in fact much weaker than season 2 and don't get me started on pre-nerf chickens wrecking anyone that wasn't an aoe jungler.

MorganFreemanBotApr 20, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Angel HFB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=000600020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T21:23:34.617+0000)

"The current early game jungle is the most dangerous it's ever been. It's actually so dangerous that smite now has a healing factor; something which was never needed prior to the current camp tuning."

And just like that you show how you don't fully grasp the jungle's history or the current state of the jungle camps powers...

Season 2 added EACH camp restoring mana and hp because of how hard it was wrecking people... it was based on % missing HP&Mana.

Then they shifted that to Red buff with smite having effects on camps... red buff being a major heal...

Then a smite upgrade would even allow for it to heal as it has for a good while now.

Now red buff and smite split that function...

The talk of ADC being too strong is on point, but what you don't realize is that at high level play in all of those seasons far more champs worked than you are saying. Naut and Sej were monsters... Assassins were in a good place, mages were still strong in the jungle as well with Fid and Diana being wicked in the right hands.

In short as much as you think this jungle is tough... it is in fact much weaker than season 2 and don't get me started on pre-nerf chickens wrecking anyone that wasn't an aoe jungler.

Wait.

Did you legitimately just try to say that this jungle is weaker than the season 2 jungle? The jungle which was designed specifically to let any champion jungle, and often times was? The jungle which Alistar, a champion with insanely low damage in all regards, was able to safely and effectively clear, and even rule the jungle role?

What the actual fuck are you talking about?

The previous jungle incarnations which had % missing health and mana return were less dangerous than the current one; this is pretty demonstrably true by how much sustain (mana and health wise) you get out of your completed smite item. That alone puts every jungler miles ahead of past generations for their ability to sustain in the jungle. Then, when you couple it with smite healing, it ramps the whole thing upto 11.

Despite that, plenty of champions these days still have dangerous clears. Nocturne, for example is a sitting duck after his first clear; any participation in the level 3 gang-bang in top lane is probably his death. Several others need to chew through both charges on their renewable potion to be at 90% once they clear two buffs + 1 camp.

To put this in perspective, I used to full-clear the s5 jungle on Trundle or Xin without backing or using any healing charges, and I'd end up at 90% hp on both when I was finished. This jungle is SUPER dangerous early game, it just provides tools to mitigate said danger.

AMYS GRAVEApr 21, 20182 votes

The current early game jungle is the most dangerous it's ever been.

That is 100% false. The early game jungle is almost as forgiving as it has ever been. In the past we have had metas that lasted for 6 months or more where only three junglers have been at all viable.

PANAGIA PARTHENAApr 19, 20184 votes

I was not checking here 2 years ago but why cant we have middle ground?Also it would be fine if gank oriented junglers like lee and elise could gank more than farm, but the fact that a kayn/yi/rengar/warwick can camp a lane for minutes with the laner knowing that if he gives just 1 kill he can fuck the rest of his team up, get outdueled/oneshoted for the rest of the game and losing his first turret is not nice.

MorganFreemanBotApr 19, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=PANAGIA PARTHENA,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2018-04-19T22:08:48.674+0000)

I was not checking here 2 years ago but why cant we have middle ground?Also it would be fine if gank oriented junglers like lee and elise could gank more than farm, but the fact that a kayn/yi/rengar/warwick can camp a lane for minutes with the laner knowing that if he gives just 1 kill he can fuck the rest of his team up, get outdueled/oneshoted for the rest of the game and losing his first turret is not nice.

A few points.

1: To your previous post (about the 2:30 gank), junglers do not perform this gank because they "have nothing else to do".

This gank happens because it has always happened. Clear buffs, hit 3, and try to screw top lane has been the early game jungle pattern for as long as there has been an early game jungle pattern. It's literally always been a thing, and is not new.

The reason it's currently so fixated is because.. you don't want to keep clearing your jungle. The way jungler items work currently is that half of your sustain **and half of your bonus xp ** from camps is locked behind completing your smite item. This means that clearing a camp after hitting 3, but before you have your smite item, is a detriment. Said camp will kick the snot out of you and reward you with less xp, leaving you at a noticeable level disadvantage for the early section of the game.

2: Giving a single kill in the extreme early game (I.E. pre six) is no more dangerous than it has ever been. If being down one kill completely shuts you out of your lane - without further jungle intervention - than your problem exists entirely between the chair and the keyboard.

Furthermore, this has always been a thing, and is not intelligent. A jungler jacking it in top lane for eons is retarded; top lane is the least important land and has the least objective control. You should pray to god that the enemy jungler camps top, sits in a bush, and wastes his time. Any farm you lose is perfectly fine; it gives your team the opportunity to crush more important lanes, clear up easier to take towers, and secure dragon.

MuffledGarbageApr 20, 20182 votes

1: u rite but ganks haven't ever been as volatile as they are now for Toplane. Toplane is able to be camped while junglers lose nothing if the enemy jungler isn't as smart(which happens a LOT thanks to Riot's matchmaking being pretty bad)

2: u rite 50%. Dying once in lane in previous seasons meant that the 0/1 player would have to play safer under tower and farm up to scale later. As of right now, that's not possible for most lanes. If a toplaner dies and goes 0/1, the enemy toplaner will be able to buy defenses and then play keep-away with the 0/1 toplaner and the 0/1 toplaner's minions

A jungler jacking it toplane for eons is them getting free gold. If I have to not farm toplane because of an Enemy jungler, I am relying 100% on MATCHMAKING RNG to give me a better team than what my opponents have. If I just so happen to have ONE opponent who stomps their lane while I am gold starved, my team will lose because that's 2 lanes that lost the game.

That, in turn, means the snowball goes towards the enemy team and they can roam which spreads the gold-value

MATCHMAKING RNG is what you're telling people to rely on when you say "Any farm you lose is perfectly fine; it gives your team the opportunity to crush more important lanes, clear up easier to take towers, and secure dragon"

All of that sentence says is "if your teammates are better than the other team, you win. If they are worse, you lose"

This proves you agree that toplane has little/no impact on the game if toplane is camped by a jungler

ForFoxSakesApr 20, 20183 votes

{quoted} The way jungler items work currently is that half of your sustain **and half of your bonus xp ** from camps is locked behind completing your smite item.

This is wrong. You get the same bonus exp regardless if you have your smite item or machete/talisman. You just get bonus sustain because it combines the effects of the machete and talisman compared to just having one

Junglers are hard ganking at level 3 right now because thats the only time where they're on even levels and items to solo laners

iDemaciaApr 20, 20186 votes

Your problem is assuming that those two groups (1 asking for more ganks and a 2nd asking for more farming) are the same people just because the post is on the boards. Why do people always do this?

SpecterVonBarenApr 20, 20188 votes

Except both of those groups talk and act as if the other doesn't exist and make it out as if the way they want it is clearly the correct choice and Riot is a bunch of idiots and scumbags for not immediately chattering to whichever group is currently whining.

AmWhaleIRLApr 20, 20189 votes

{quoted}

So let me get this straight:

Boards complained for two years straight about junglers farming. They said that they didn't gank enough, had too much control of objectives, were too heavily rewarded for afk farming in a situation where they didn't have to risk laning against someone, and would emerge from the jungle in mid game (always with a fully stacked feral flare / devourer enchant, according to boards) and run an unholy rape train on the enemy team.

Now boards is complaining that the jungle is too gank centric; that the junglers spend too much time camping and ganking lanes when jungle camps have DECADES long respawn timers, offer low amounts of gold, and deal more damage than they used to.

Make up your fucking mind. The jungle either has to be farm centric or gank centric. If you have camps with respectable respawn times that reward appreciable amounts of gold and xp, farming will ALWAYS be superior to ganking because it does not depend on another player cooperating.

People gotta blame somebody for their own mistakes amirite?

YumaS2AstralApr 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

So let me get this straight:

Boards complained for two years straight about junglers farming. They said that they didn't gank enough, had too much control of objectives, were too heavily rewarded for afk farming in a situation where they didn't have to risk laning against someone, and would emerge from the jungle in mid game (always with a fully stacked feral flare / devourer enchant, according to boards) and run an unholy rape train on the enemy team.

Now boards is complaining that the jungle is too gank centric; that the junglers spend too much time camping and ganking lanes when jungle camps have DECADES long respawn timers, offer low amounts of gold, and deal more damage than they used to.

Make up your fucking mind. The jungle either has to be farm centric or gank centric. If you have camps with respectable respawn times that reward appreciable amounts of gold and xp, farming will ALWAYS be superior to ganking because it does not depend on another player cooperating.

You say that as if the boards were a single entity and all people here had the same opinion

MorganFreemanBotApr 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You say that as if the boards were a single entity and all people here had the same opinion

Of course Boards constitutes different people with different opinions, but there are still a lot of shared opinions.

Throw out a thread about ADC's being too strong right now and you'll farm upvotes and positive opinions; state the opposite and get ready for the downvote fairy to come bugger you.

Saying that Yasuo isn't a toxic anti-fun hyperscaling lane bully (add more buzzwords as you please) is met with masses of people throwing out pages of tears and downvotes aplenty.

Saying that tanks are overpowered will earn you cheers of agreement, saying anything which disagrees earns cries of outrage.

Boards may be different people, but in a 'broad strokes' sense there tend to be unified opinions. The forums, generally speaking, represent a group of highly vocal players who just aren't great at the game; who want to scream, shout, and fling poo until their perceived grievances improve rather than self analyze and assess.

One of those perceived grievances used to be the way junglers played; that their revenue stream from farming was too reliable and they hit spikes too reliably, so they should have to gank and run risks in order to gain gold and stay on par / close in items as a better way to express their skill.

Those people got their wish, and now they're bitching about it while forgetting this is **exactly **what they asked for.

Avios1Apr 20, 20183 votes

I'm alright with people ganking instead of farming, but I'm not okay with how little risk is involved, especially lvl 3 doubles full HP 2v1 vs. me who is only level 2, busting my teleport (i don't take it anymore, personal preference) and then promptly dying again even though they didn't back and busted all of their summs on me.

It just don't feel natural for toplane to be dominated so easily. I don't mind getting ganked, I mind how effortless it is.

MuffledGarbageApr 20, 20182 votes

It's almost like the boards is made up of different groups of people that have different preferences [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Quil EvrythingApr 19, 201825 votes

As far as I recall, this is "working as intended". because riot deliberately nerfed jg xp, with the explicit goal of forcing junglers to gank or fall behind?

420 gramsApr 19, 201821 votes

But then junglers lose impact because when your lanes start getting solo killed, what can you do?

Plus have you ever just cleared the jungle for 20 mins? It's very boring

BLIGHTBRINGERApr 19, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T18:25:39.925+0000)

But then junglers lose impact because when your lanes start getting solo killed, what can you do?

Plus have you ever just cleared the jungle for 20 mins? It's very boring

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/1/1b/Does_Not_Compute_Emote.png

It seems that everyone is finding every aspect of this game boring if it doesn't mean trying to kill one another non-stop.

ForFoxSakesApr 20, 20184 votes

So flipping this to laners PoV then, you think they'd be ok if it was a farm fest in lane with zero interaction with your opposing laner allowed and it's all just about who can last hit better for 15 min. Then at the end of that time we see who wins a 1v1/2v2 brawl based on last hitting abilities? Laners also are not allowed to roam because no one wants to have an unfair impact on another laner apparently

That's basically what people bitching about but just tagging it to junglers

PANAGIA PARTHENAApr 19, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-19T18:25:39.925+0000)

But then junglers lose impact because when your lanes start getting solo killed, what can you do?

Plus have you ever just cleared the jungle for 20 mins? It's very boring

Well jungle should be the more PvE centered role.I'm not saying u should only farm, but the free time you have to camp lanes is excessive and more of a filler than a choice.Ganking top at 2:30 because u have nothing else to do is not fun for either the jungler or the top laner.It's not a choice, its something that 90% will happen and both parties have to play around it, its braindead.Im fine with getting camped and the rest, when its impactful if i dont die.Because right now a jungler can camp a lane sitting in a bush for a minute, and making the laner missing a cannon is worth it, because the jungler has a high probability of not getting punished.

WTBeGirl100EUhrApr 20, 20182 votes

If you're ganking top at 2:30 it's because you did a 3-camp clear. There are 6 camps plus scuttles. Quite a lot of junglers have the option of doing more - although usually not all - of those camps. It's not because there's "nothing else to do". It's because you'll be level 3 and the poor top laner you're looking to go dump on should be level 2 and that's pretty much the only time you'll have that advantage.

AmWhaleIRLApr 20, 20186 votes

{quoted}

If you're ganking top at 2:30 it's because you did a 3-camp clear. There are 6 camps plus scuttles. Quite a lot of junglers have the option of doing more - although usually not all - of those camps. It's not because there's "nothing else to do". It's because you'll be level 3 and the poor top laner you're looking to go dump on should be level 2 and that's pretty much the only time you'll have that advantage.

Yes cause these SUPER predictable ganks that happen QUITE often aren't easily avoidable right? Seeing complain about that is a surefire sign of blaming a different role for their own mistakes. It's super super easy to avoid, ward, respect, learn from your mistakes. Stop whining to Riot to coddle you.

SteelflameApr 20, 20183 votes

This. You only have a very short window of time most games where you, as the jungler, are at a lead in levels compared to all other lanes. Once this lead is up, it's gone for the rest of the game usually, unless you also get some solo XP from holding lanes (Say in 1 for 1 trades where you then shove the lane hard to force it to reset). This is your prime time of power as a result. In the early game, levels are the only real combat advantage, as no one has had the chance to recall for gold spending yet, and its letting you set a 5 level vs 2 level situation in top. An almost assured win. Ganking bot would be most likely a 7 level vs 4 level, not anywhere near the level disparity, and a situation in which the potential backfire is far greater if it fails, and mid tends to be tougher to gank due to the shorter lane and higher ranged champions in that lane meaning you only have a distance of 600-700 units to apply pressure in many cases, compared to a distance of 1500 units to apply pressure to the enemy in top.

TheSingularityApr 20, 20182 votes

Sometimes you don't have an option in the farming department

saltranApr 19, 201811 votes

I'm fine with junglers having impact on early game and ganking.

I'm the only one?

AmWhaleIRLApr 20, 20185 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with junglers having impact on early game and ganking.

I'm the only one?

You're just one of the few who learned how to ward and respect them.

PANAGIA PARTHENAApr 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're just one of the few who learned how to ward and respect them.

I do ward and respect them, can i play the game now please?

AmWhaleIRLApr 20, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=PANAGIA PARTHENA,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-04-20T02:21:36.053+0000)

I do ward and respect them, can i play the game now please?

I don't understand how people still die to this shit, it's so god damned easy to keep track of where the JG is, ward for him, respect him, and avoid him. And to be perfectly Frank you SHOULD be able to camp a lane. If someone's bad enough to die over and over to JG ganks cause of disrespect they don't deserve to be coddled. They deserve to lose LP like the rest of us. The moment you take away ganks and roams is the moment you take all agency away from the JG role. And all those times people love to say "JG did nothing", that would get worse. You can't have both! People love to complain about JG's not ganking them despite their laner being pushed, but people also love to complain about being ganked often. Like what is the solution here?! Maybe instead of whining about both you guys actually offer some solutions for once, no wonder Riot doesn't ever respond to any of these, no point. And no, "Make camps spawn sooner" is not a viable solution. Because then champs like Shyvana would be OP and then the complaints about afk farm junglers would start piling up. I don't see any realistic solution here at all.

The Yetii RiderApr 20, 201810 votes

And just how do you propose we make junglers farm more? Decrease XP on camps? They'll gank and take lane CS to make up for it. More XP on camps? They need to farm even less now. How can we even force them back to gank more rarely?

Ark Angel HFBApr 20, 20183 votes

You make the camps harder to kill... but make some camps help you kill the others...

Like grump speeds up your attacks against monsters, or krugs de-buff monsters so they don't hit quite as hard.

You gate the good rewards of the jungle behind them actually hurting to take.

And you make the dragon/herald objectives be much harder early, if one or both of those effects isn't in place.

Remember when supports shifting a dragons agro back and forth was a skill that was rewarded?

You add more things like that to the rest of the jungle.

Each camp should have smart ways to take them, that might be a bit slower but will negate some of the heavy damage.

ForFoxSakesApr 20, 20183 votes

There will always be some junglers who can just abuse this and power farm even more efficiently then go to gank before another jungler can even finish 3 camps. Will make so many junglers not viable just like the start of last season where only a handful of junglers were playable and super OP

If the camps are too hard to kill or take too much time, then the jungler wont even bother w them and just go gank and leech lanes even more

Ark Angel HFBApr 20, 20181 votes

Listen... if the camps are hard to take... it encourages counter jungling and 1v1s in jungle.

Looking to find and kill a low hp jungler who was just trying to farm... but doing so by expending hp was a big part of seasons 2, 4 and 5... and many long time jungle mains remember those seasons as some of the healthiest for jungle play.

And the ones that can't farm at the rate of the best farmer?

They play like every jungler that is in the game right now... ganking to create a team advantage.

MorganFreemanBotApr 20, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Angel HFB,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Up4lRGmr,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-20T18:56:22.641+0000)

Listen... if the camps are hard to take... it encourages counter jungling and 1v1s in jungle.

Looking to find and kill a low hp jungler who was just trying to farm... but doing so by expending hp was a big part of seasons 2, 4 and 5... and many long time jungle mains remember those seasons as some of the healthiest for jungle play.

And the ones that can't farm at the rate of the best farmer?

They play like every jungler that is in the game right now... ganking to create a team advantage.

That's not how it actually worked.

The seasons you're referencing squeezed almost all diversity out of the jungle. The only champs really worth playing were those with strange base stats and damages, so basically just fighters / divers / bruisers who had the right mix of gap closers, hard CC, and damage to fight / gank coupled with aoe damage and sustain to clear.

Nothing else was allowed unless it was insanely over tuned.

Zac was pretty much the only tank which saw any action - when the jungle has historically been the refuge of tanks - because of how powerful his ganks with E were.

Assassin junglers such as Eve (pre rework) were not passable unless overtuned; make no mistake that current eve would not be remotely viable in that style of jungle, she would get farmed and taken out of the game before she hit six and gained her invisibility. Kha'zix wouldn't be strong either because his level 2-4 dueling isn't powerful enough, and his clear actually hurts him.

Tanky junglers who have decent ganks, but low 1v1 potential, were virtually unplayable. Amumu and Rammus are both in decent spots right now, as is Cho, and they would completely disappear were the jungle to be switched back to that.

Lastly, fighter champions with brittle early games but powerful late games such as Hecarim, Kayn, and Olaf would have extremely hard times, and probably see even less success and lower amounts of play.

KetiApr 20, 20186 votes

item 3649

Snowman ArcApr 20, 20186 votes

Honestly, I prefer the more farm-heavy jungling. It gives more option to express skill in the jungle. Now, it's all about if you have good teammates to assist you in ganks. If they make is farm-heavy again, then you can 1v1 the enemy jungler in ways like contesting more camps, counterjungling, objective control etc. It makes a more fun dynamic.

Feel ApathyApr 20, 20185 votes

And what happens when the jungler farms enough and kills you 1v1?

RIOT JUNGLERS ARE TOO STRONG AND HAVE TOO MUCH AGENCY NERF THEM!

Snowman ArcApr 20, 20182 votes

Well, if one jungler managed to farm so much more than the enemy jungler to get a big lead to easily 1v1 them, then that's perfectly fine. It feels like a true 1v1. I don't see what is the problem with your post.

Feel ApathyApr 20, 20181 votes

Wasn't implying JG vs JG, but a JG vs a top laner or a mid laner for example. - Something that never happens unless the JG pops off.

MuffledGarbageApr 20, 20182 votes

Junglers would be rewarded for out-farming a lane though... and that jungler would have to be WAY ahead in farm to kill another champ that easily after powerfarming assuming it'd be around a 10-minute powerfarm

In that specific situation, it was the midlaner's fault for not farming and getting XP from minions that would have led to a death

Your situation is assuming the jungler is more skillful than the other players :\