If you want Precision to be open to more Mages, we will need another Legend row Rune.

Illâoi Evê Siôn·Feb 10, 2018·30 votes·1,932 views

Because most Mages don't want Attack Speed or Life Steal, and taking Tenacity, although it is good against most lane opponents, just feels bad.

You could add a Legend Rune that stacks Mana or Mana Regen (flat or %), or you could add one that breaks the mold with an Arcane Blade or Spellsword effect or something similar. If it was a Spellblade effect, it could work the same as the other Legend Runes with increasing flat damage and an Ability Power ratio (or the other way around).

46 Comments

leakinbFeb 10, 20188 votes

Meanwhile there is no runes for bruisers

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 201849 votes

Meanwhile, there are a dozen other threads to be salty about that topic in. Go find one of those.

ShablagooFeb 10, 20184 votes

Ya man this is a mage salty post, mage sympathizers only. I'm being sarcastic though, mages have the most op tree do they really need another?

invisiblecat1Feb 11, 20181 votes

This issue isn't about having an OP tree Sure some champions are incredibly strong with Comet, but what about the ones that can't take comet or Aery They are forced to take Phase Rush which sucks, so they need more options

ShablagooFeb 11, 20181 votes

Can I just ask which, mages don't benefit from comet? Also phase rush is the same as it was before, so if that is true those champions must've always just sucked.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

phase rush is the same as it was before

Oooh, bad way to get on the Boards' bad side.

ShablagooFeb 13, 20181 votes

Funny thing is which mages actually dont benefit from comet too? I can't believe I feel into that trap. And mb I guess having to use three skills is just to much right?

SohleksFeb 10, 20185 votes

Yeah this thread is right. A row of useless [for ap] keystones is part of the problem. TBH though the tenacity is not bad though.

The lifesteal one is just being a bytewaster atm. It's too undertuned to be a good value. They could make it compelling but it might just become an issue.

Or maybe just a tiny tiny amount of spellvamp could get the rune on. Would have to be so small tho or it'd be a problem. Then you get into weirdness of how to make the rune adaptive and the ironic-ness that some AD casters would prefer the vamp.

I like the sound of a spellblade.

Z3SleeperFeb 10, 20181 votes

I take it on Urgot for the sole reason that every other one is trash on him but sometimes Triumph is the best rune for the occasion so I take Legend: Tenacity with it.

Teridax68Feb 10, 20183 votes

First off, I think both Legend: Bloodline and Ravenous Hunter might both be better off in Resolve under just one single omnivamp rune, as they both aim to make the user more survivable through sustain. Similarly, Tenacity is a mechanic more fitting of fighters and tanks than marksmen, and so deserves to go on Resolve as well. Life steal as a mechanic is extremely specific and benefits only one class, as does attack speed, which is why I also think it would help to make the precision tree itself grant adaptive AD/AP, and only offer bonus attack speed via select rune options. Having takedown-based bonuses is a great idea, but might be better off with effects that benefit all damage-dealers, such as a scaling Spellblade effect as mentioned in the OP, or even some kind of Luden's/Kircheis-type bonus damage every few attacks and casts.

Additionally, in order for Precision to be worth picking on everyone, I think its keystones should stop being tuned as heavily around marksmen. Fleet Footwork does not need to synergize specially with crit, but could very well use a buff to its AP ratio to better accommodate mages looking for sustain (though this kind of sustain effect might itself be more appropriate for Resolve). Press The Attack runs on pretty much the same general rules of application as Phase Rush and Electrocute, so in this respect it might help to make it stack on abilities as well as attacks, and then perhaps put more emphasis on its damage amp, and less on its bonus damage to avoid conflict with Electrocute. Lethal Tempo is intended to synergize purely with autoattackers, and so doesn't need changes in this respect, imo.

I think one of the biggest issues with Precision is that, as a tree, it's currently designed to synergize almost exclusively with marksmen, but otherwise has no true unifying theme. There are tons of runes in the tree that, for some reason, offer sustain or durability, and would be better off in Resolve, whereas Presence of Mind would likely be better off as a competitor to Manaflow Band in Sorcery. The Combat subtree is fine as a list of situational damage bonuses, but the rest of the tree is mismatched, and makes little sense other than to offer a grab bag of stats that are especially appealing to a single class over all others. Updating the Legend row to include a more mage-friendly rune could be a good step towards opening the tree up, but I suspect a lot more would be needed to make it truly as accessible as the other trees.

SpoofghoulFeb 10, 20183 votes

I find precision as a whole to be pretty much closed to most roles other then marksmen

It is overloaded with % dps amplifiers

+7% damage isn't going to do so well for a tank or support as a mage its meh i mean sure it can help but it doesn't really work as well for burst as for any dps source other trees often have better options to pick from for lighter dps or burst patterns anyway

That tree seems to heavily favor AD dps

Even the keystones all revolve around basic attacking

Meanwhile other tree's at least have good options for most roles whether it's for poke like aery or comet or more cdr or boots don't get me started on the tank tree which is like a hey lets cram 5 different roles into this tree making it meh for all it's users i mean it has good stuff it's just that it solely focuses on 1 from of defense which is health or sustain or shields with utility stuff crammed in

It could have offered alternative defense steroids instead of these utilities and better scaling for fighters and tanks

I like the idea of a legend rue for precision though since it lacks anything for mage/caster play stiles.

I also think the keystones should get a pass in order to open up this tree for other classes since they all revolve around basic attack dps

Take Lethal tempo for example, it could offer additional cdr or attack speed adaptive not sure how to do this but it's an idea Fleet footwork could also work with spells if spell casting could also grant stacks and if it could be procced by casting a spell could even synergize with something like ludens might make cassio retarded tho

just some thoughts

YuGiHoFeb 10, 20182 votes

Spellsword would only be good early for most mages when u have no stack and buy the time it is good its too late in the game to get any use unless u are a lich ban user.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20183 votes

In the early game, Spellsword (with a base value) could help with last hitting and in the late game it would scale up to be a better Scorch, so it would definitely fit the Precision theme. It would probably still be better than the other three options, too.

YuGiHoFeb 10, 20181 votes

Scorch is awful late game the pacing of the game is the only reason people take it over storm and what non lich bane mage would be weaving autos into their combos? the only one i can think of is lb because riot messed her combos so bad she even had to buy gunblade and lich bane to even function as an assassin.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20186 votes

Every Mage auto attacks? I mean ... Anivia probably doesn't too much, and Cassiopeia, and Fiddle, and Karthus. But otherwise on everyone else you're just wasting your time/damage not auto attacking.

YuGiHoFeb 10, 20182 votes

why would u ever auto trad into marksman/ enemy mages, unless your auto range is also = to your spell range i dont see that being a wise decision outside of lane phase

KynamiFeb 10, 20184 votes

Ahri and Evelynn like to work a few autos into their combos. Ahri tends to try sneaking an auto or two in early in lane when mana sustain is an issue. Both currently have uses for Lichbane for all-ins... both have a charm that gives a couple quality seconds of being able to sneak in a couple autos in the middle of the burst combo, and which is a reasonable thing if you are trying to stay in just long enough for the 1.5s lichbane proc to come back up for the second slap across the enemy's face.

Handy Sandy Feb 10, 20186 votes

Even Anivia autos because her range is so long

Moonfall SaberFeb 10, 20182 votes

Spell Vamp

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

Do you mean Spell vamp?

Moonfall SaberFeb 10, 20181 votes

yea

AwesomeGuyDjFeb 10, 20182 votes

Wait, how does riot want precision to be more open to mages? Was this on one of the dev posts, or a pbe change that i missed?

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

All Paths are supposed to be open to a variety of classes. They offer different means of benefits more so than different kinds (not just damage, but sustained damage vs poke vs burst, not just mobility but kiting MS vs combo coupled with Slow Resist vs Burst on a Boots active for target access). Precision is pretty exclusive to Marksmen atm. It should allow anyone who wants to deal more sustained damage, though.

But, uh, to answer your question, this thread is inspired by this comment of Meddler's most recent Quick Gameplay Thoughts.

{quoted}

Definitely open to mages in precision primary and it was something we thought about during keystone development in particular (e.g. adaptive damage on PTA or the AP ratio on Fleet Footwork). Hoping the precision stat split opens up a few more opportunities for that to be an effective choice, the Attack Speed's still arguably too much of a barrier there for many mages though, even at only 50% of its previous value. That does then beg the question of how much playstyle bound stats like that are appropriate on the trees, and that's something we don't have enough of a consensus on ourselves yet (but are certainly actively discussing).

It was in respone to this comment:

{quoted}

Are you guys ever experimented with opening up precision for mages? I mean making it more viable to go into precision as a primary tree? Now mages can only go sorcery and only a selected few can go domination, and probably none of them can go precision, even though there could be an interesting gameplay with a DoT pattern with PTA for example. In contrast ADCs can go precision sorcery inspiration maybe even domination, and do fine. Thoughts?

Steel BlossomFeb 10, 20182 votes

...taking Tenacity feels bad? I've never felt bad for having bonus Tenacity on anyone...

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20182 votes

Most minor Runes in the other Paths offer more tangible rewards for Mages, especially since Tenacity only kicks in for a split second during your opponent's combo and has to stack up because it's a Legend Rune. And against some enemies Tenacity doesn't work, so you're left without a good rune from the Legend row, like when you're playing against an AD Assassin or anyone with a knock-up instead of an immobilize.

Of course, in that situation you should just take another Path, but this is to answer your question.

Steel BlossomFeb 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhRMEHUc,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-02-10T15:56:44.788+0000)

Most minor Runes in the other Paths offer more tangible rewards for Mages, especially since Tenacity only kicks in for a split second during your opponent's combo and has to stack up because it's a Legend Rune. And against some enemies Tenacity doesn't work, so you're left without a good rune from the Legend row, like when you're playing against an AD Assassin or anyone with a knock-up instead of an immobilize.

Of course, in that situation you should just take another Path, but this is to answer your question.

None of the Legends are for laning, though. By their stacking nature, they're all tools more geared toward the mid-late game, where teamfights and rotations happen more often. And, maybe it's because I'm just spending retirement in ARAM now, but having extra Tenacity in teamfights feels super good on literally every champion I play.

LordGeovanniFeb 11, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Steel Blossom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhRMEHUc,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-02-10T15:52:50.974+0000)

...taking Tenacity feels bad? I've never felt bad for having bonus Tenacity on anyone...

ive never felt the effect of tenacity except versus nasus.

TeCoolMageFeb 11, 20182 votes

Make the AS rune adaptive AS/CDR (higher is which is closer to cap 2.5 AS or 40% CDR cap)

SkorchFeb 10, 20181 votes

I mean Attack speed isnt USELESS on a mage, being able to reliably last hit saves mana. The only issue is it has to build up over the first 5 to 10min in which case itll get less useful as you get mana.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 10, 20181 votes

Just remove these stats

TopperHFeb 10, 20181 votes

A tree specifically made for auto-attackers doesn't really suit mages. How shocking !

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

A tree (BF EDIT: allegedly) specifically made for auto-attackers could suit Mages with just a few small changes. How impressive.

But to fulfill my sarcasm quota: A tree specifically made for Mages does really suit auto-attackers. How unfair ! whine whine whine

DracocrashFeb 10, 20181 votes

fleet footwork scales with ap, its not lifesteal.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

Talking about the Legend row.

Acheron16Feb 10, 20181 votes

It's a tree made for people that auto-attack (more precisely, ones that want attack speed).

You don't see me opting into Resolve with Guardian and then complain that my Lucian doesn't use that tree completely.

Precision as a secondary tree more than fulfills the requisites, it's Riot's fault that they make the stat bonus fixed instead of allowing you to choose what stars you want.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's a tree made for people that auto-attack (more precisely, ones that want attack speed).

It currently is a Path for those people but it wasn't made just for them, nor is that Riot's sole intention for the future of the Path.

You don't see me opting into Resolve with Guardian and then complain that my Lucian doesn't use that tree completely.

Good. A better example would be Grasp of the Undying since that's actually a damage Keystone, but even so, Resolve is harder to compare to Precision than Domination or Sorcery is, since the focus of those three is damage and the focus of Resolve is durability. Still, Precision is the narrowest Path of all five, so opening it up to other playstyles without disturbing its current users is not something you complain about, it's something you strive for.

Precision as a secondary tree more than fulfills the requisites, it's Riot's fault that they make the stat bonus fixed instead of allowing you to choose what stars you want.

Which requisites do you mean?

SirsirFeb 10, 20181 votes

Theres no reason for mages to main precision unless they use attack speed anyway Kayle , so having a row they can't spec in (unless they are AS based champs) doesn't really matter. If they are taking it secondary they can just take Triumph/Presence+CDG like everyone else

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 10, 20181 votes

I could see any Mage that buys Lich Bane taking Precision primary as a sustained damage, spell-weaving type playstyle. The important thing is that you would have the choice/the niche would be covered.

FCJAAAAGOOOOFeb 11, 20181 votes

I think Bloodline could be a potentially good sustain rune if it counted towards all damage and not just autoattacks.

LordGeovanniFeb 11, 20181 votes

idk why tenacity or lifesteal is in the percision tree .

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 11, 20181 votes

Tenacity is an important stat to Fighters and Lifesteal offers sustain based on damage dealt. They both seem like good fits for a sustained damage Tree. Why do you think they shouldn't be in it?

LordGeovanniFeb 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Illâoi Evê Siôn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhRMEHUc,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2018-02-11T21:40:32.619+0000)

Tenacity is an important stat to Fighters and Lifesteal offers sustain based on damage dealt. They both seem like good fits for a sustained damage Tree. Why do you think they shouldn't be in it?

Sure people say so but like i have said ive only ever noticed a diffrence versus 1 cc. after several years. and sure it may benifit fighters but it doesnt fit the theme of prolonged fights through precision not like the tree was made with melee fighters in mind at all anyway. also lifesteal hasnt been viable on fighters since riot raised the crit chance gained from each crit item which lead to adcs getting high damage more consistently and killing fighters before they could reach adcs in short windows leading for fighters to have to build like tanks and only use damage items that are 70% defense or cdr item 3071 item 3053 item 3748 more.... no wait thats it except for situational item 3812 and item 3078 users speaking of which isnt viablely usefull without

VoraciousXFeb 11, 20181 votes

A Spellblade would likely be abused by a lot of other champions(MF for example doesn't really need attack speed, and her Q proc's spellblade, so uh....yeah. The same could be said for other champions).

Legend gives lifesteal, attack speed, and tenacity, so perhaps movement speed. I can't see many champions wanting that over lifesteal, it could work with the sorcery tree(namely Celerity and Waterwalking). Another option would be CDR, but I dunno. I mean you can get 15% CDR from 2 other trees combined, but then again with it being in an entirely different tree you couldn't take all 3 so it might be balanced. 1% CDR per takedown doesn't really seem that empowering though, but who knows.

RyrynounetFeb 11, 20181 votes

but to have an useful spellblade you need at least a little amount of ap tho

VoraciousXFeb 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Ryvals,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UhRMEHUc,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2018-02-11T12:17:41.041+0000)

but to have an useful spellblade you need at least a little amount of ap tho

Spellblade doesn't have a specific damage type. It's dependant on what Riot wants it to do. For example, Lich Bane requires you to have some AP for it to scale, but it still depends on your base AD. Trinity Force is purely your base AD, but it's 2x your base AD instead of 75% of it. Iceborn Gauntlet is 100% of your base AD and the size of the slow field increases with armor. Spellblade is purely extra damage, with the common thing being that it is based on your base AD. If you remove that and make it purely extra damage, they can't make it pure AP or else it'll remove the possibility of AD damage dealers using it, and the rune system is about freedom of choice. If they were to add it, it'd have to be adaptive damage and that would set some champions over the edge(especially champions who actually use spellblade items, but other champions like MF as well).