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So I played against Ekko as Ziggs.

Daedalus871··1 votes·959 views

And I got destroyed. Like demolished. Granted I was a first time Ziggs, but I don't think that it accounted for all my deaths. Like nothing I did made a difference. Absolutely nothing. I tried hanging back, but he could still engage on my. I literally couldn't AA minions without him going all in on me.

So after the game, I went to the wiki and compared the ranges. Q: Ekko 1075 Ziggs 850-1400 W: Ekko 1600 Ziggs 1000 E: Ekko 750 total Ziggs 900 R: Ekko Global Ziggs 5300

Now I get that different champs are different, but Ziggs is a long range siege mage while Ekko is an assassin. Except since he is longer range than a siege mage, I'd say he is also a siege mage. Okay, maybe Siege mage is the right way to describe him since he doesn't play like that but he still out ranges them.

And he also beats out Xerath. Q: 750-1400 W: 1100 E: 1050 R: 5600

And Vel'koz, who is probably the longest ranged champion overall, barely out ranges him. Q: 1050/1485 W: 1050 E: 850 R: 1550

But not only does Ekko out range these champs, but he also out damages, out ccs, out mobilties, out bursts, out dpss. And this isn't even mentioning his "oh shit" button.

I fail to see any major weakness that Ekko has.

29 Comments

redniwediS3 votes

Ekko is amazing against a squishy opponent, especially one that does not fully understand the champion they are playing. He does have weaknesses, even if it was difficult to notice them in that match.

Daedalus8711 votes

The only weakness that I see Ekko having is if you can burst him before he can burst you.

redniwediS2 votes

And thus his enormous weakness to bruisers and fighters rears it's head. Why rely on bursting him first when you can just tank it and burst him anyway?

Daedalus8711 votes

Because he will sill burst you.

redniwediS2 votes

I don't think you're understanding. In lane, before Ekko has the chance to get fed, he can't burst down a bruiser. A bruiser will eat Ekko's damage, deal their own, and can easily win the trade.

Your experience here is with a squishy mage against an Ekko that quickly gained an advantage, so I can understand how it might seem that Ekko's burst is overwhelming, but as a bruiser main since season 1 I promise you this works.

Daedalus8711 votes

I hope you're only suggesting that as a temporary measure instead of a permanent solution.

redniwediS3 votes

I'm not offering either. I'm saying you can counterpick Ekko effectively, just like you can for every champion in the game. Why on earth would counterpicking be a "temporary measure"?

Daedalus8711 votes

Because so far, you have only offered counter picking a bruiser as the only counter play to him. While that may be fine, it is ignoring:

  1. Ignoring whether or not Blind pick should be considered, you only get to counter pick half of the time. Granted it's ignoring a lot of stuff, but it's decent enough.
  2. Not a lot of bruisers can handle the 750+ range that Ekko gets to chose if he can fight.
  3. Taking a bruiser mid doesn't always work well for you team comp. All that combined means that you have, at best, 25% of an acceptable solution.
redniwediS1 votes

I did say fighter, though my personal preference for bruisers definitely showed up.

For blind pick counterpicking simply doesn't work. You could just as easily end up against a Katarina in an unfavorable matchup as you could anyone else. Because of this I think it's safe to ignore Blind Pick when talking about this topic. If you're heavy into playing Blind Pick you want reliable champions over ones that best fit your team composition, so picking whoever you are best at is always preferable to someone who is strong against the current meta "big bad" for your lane but weak to other popular matchups.

As for the range, there's two things wrong with that. The first is that Ekko's Q is a slow skillshot. Anyone in a matchup that involves skillshots will have to dodge them, outsustain them, or lose lane. This isn't special to Ekko, and so I think that part can safely be ignored.

For the jump and the rest of his kit Ekko is required to get in close. It's the same weakness Riven has when fighting bruisers and some fighters. Some champions like Garen and Darius thrive against opponents who usually dictate fights. You position yourself to deny farm, forcing your opponent to either use ranged skills only, take free damage when last hitting, or engage in an unfavorable situation. I'll admit this takes a lot of practice to get right, as there's a fine line between forcing your opponent's hand and outright feeding due to ignorance.

Your third point is a legitimate concern, however it's one that, in a situation where people actually talk about their team composition, should be easily resolved. Most of the time people won't care about team composition until it's already halfway through the game and they realize they have too much of one damage type, or not enough range or engage or peel. That said there are AP bruisers as well, though I have not personally tested any of them against Ekko.

Daedalus8711 votes

The only way that you can guarantee a counter pick is if your on red team. Since you end up blue team half the time, it isn't a legitimate response to Ekko. Plus the whole I do believe that the game should never be entirely determined by picks or bans. It can give you an advantage, but it shouldn't determine the entire game.

As far as the range goes, Ekko doesn't need to lead with his Q. He can throw his stun, dash in (at which point, you'd turn to fight him), throw his Q, stun you, get a couple of AAs off and run. Most fighters can't really retaliate from that. And picking a fighter that can do that means you need to be red side. Which you don't always get.

Finally with the assumption that most people don't think about team comp, so we don't need to worry about it, you essentially forcing me into choosing to win lane and lose game or lose lane and lose game. I'd also like to point out that sometimes a bruiser is not what you need. Sometimes you need a Xerath/Ziggs/some other non bruiser.

redniwediS1 votes

Sorry, but all this post is showing me is that you're unwilling to listen to my opinion if it disagrees with your own. You're talking about things as if they were only on paper, where as I am not. I would have hoped you would at least concede to at least a single point in this discussion, but it would appear that if someone can change your mind on this it won't be me.

Hopefully you'll learn how to fight Ekko on your own, since you don't seem to be interested in other people offering help on that matter.

Daedalus8711 votes

I would make a concession if there was anything that I thought should be conceded.

So far you have only suggested countering Ekko with a bruiser, which I have brought up 3 problems with: You don't get to counterpick half the time, he has a greater effective range than pretty much every bruiser, and picking a bruiser mid doesn't work well with every team comp. Your response was unconvincing.

Below you say that suggesting counterpicking is a way to see how open minded someone is, but there are major flaws with counter picking that I have pointed out.

  1. You don't always get to counter pick.
  2. Your counter pick isn't always good for your team.
redniwediS1 votes

A final post from me then.

  1. In situations where you don't get to counter pick you always run the chance of ending up in an unfavorable lane. That is a flaw of Team Builder and Blind Pick, and as such it doesn't really have anything to do with Ekko.

  2. Why not? Any situation where your team forces you into a bad matchup is bad for your team, is it not? If your team is willing to work together you won't have this issue, as there are both AP and AD bruisers in this game, some with burst and some with more sustained damage. If that is such an unflexable pick that your team ends up in a bad situation someone was unwilling to work with your team in champion select, and so it's their fault, not the fault of the bruiser pick.

Daedalus8711 votes

  1. All you have suggested so far is counterpicking. Nothing else. So what happens if Ekko is last pick red side? Oh right, you don't get to counterpick. It is an issue that extends to draft pick as well. And it wasn't meant to be something wrong with Ekko, but rather a flaw with saying "Just counterpick".

  2. If my team is set up for a poke comp, then I probably also be pokey. If 3 of my teammates are melee, then I should probably pick a ranged champ. If they have shit tons of cc, then I probably don't want to be a bruiser. And if I am 3rd or 4th pick, then it is my responsibility to make sure my pick goes with the rest of the team.

redniwediS1 votes

See, this is why I don't want to have this conversation anymore. Your counter to my reply to point 1 is a very, very minor chance that applies to any champion. It's not specific to Ekko, and can be easily ignored by anyone but you apparently.

For 2 just pick a pokey champion, or someone with good disengage to protect your pokey champions if you have a poke comp. You're ignoring just how varied bruisers are in capability just so you can have a flaw with this to point out.

You're just pointing out tiny issues with my points (which is a well known sign that someone has lost an argument, but doesn't want to admit it. Seriously, look that up if you don't believe me.) so you don't have to come up with more of your own. This is a sure fire way to ruin a conversation.

Next time you're in a discussion like this put more effort into new points, rather than beating counter points like they are a dead horse. Nit picking arguments is bad style.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you're understanding. In lane, before Ekko has the chance to get fed, he can't burst down a bruiser. A bruiser will eat Ekko's damage, deal their own, and can easily win the trade.

Your experience here is with a squishy mage against an Ekko that quickly gained an advantage, so I can understand how it might seem that Ekko's burst is overwhelming, but as a bruiser main since season 1 I promise you this works.

If the only counterplay to Ekko that you can come up with is "just counterpick him", then there's something wrong with the champion, lol. Or you just don't know what the counterplay toward him is (nor do I, I've only laned against him once).

If you're going mid and you have to first pick without knowing your opponent you won't always have the luxury of counter picking.

redniwediS1 votes

It's hardly the only counter play, however it's the easiest to type at 2:30 in the morning. It's also a good way to see if people are willing to accept a differing opinion.

LordGeovanni1 votes

this is how it should be but his passive is jsut to large and avalible too often for him to lose the rest of his kit is balanced

DrNova1 votes

And poking him to death. He is melee, and his ult heals last four seconds. If you have buun just poking him over a few min, that ult loses any meaningful heal

Daedalus8711 votes

But he can avoid poke if he places half decent. Like hiding behind minions or making you choose between poke and wave clear or falling back and farming with Q.

DrNova1 votes

He cant avoid poke more then anyone else can, and he avoids less then most mids because he's melee and cant sustain famring with Q alone for any length of time.

A high amount of mid champs poke can easily get around a minion in front of him as well. Most poke mid's have spells that bypass minions if you want, damage through them, appear wherever you click, or straight out targeted.

ShuffledPancake2 votes

siege mages are meant to poke while taking towers, ekko doesnt do that.

Daedalus8711 votes

No, he just out ranges Siege mages.

ShuffledPancake1 votes

he cant siege well tho. he takes turret aggro.

Daedalus8711 votes

Then he presses R.

ShuffledPancake2 votes

Why use r to do a shitty siege job, makes no fucking sense. he is a bad sieger and will stay that way.

Daedalus8711 votes

Cause he just got one person of his choice to back/die. Meaning he essentially did a siege mage job with a higher percentage of success.

ShuffledPancake1 votes

To Seige - Allowing your AD Carry or anyone really to come up and poke the tower down with a few shots moving in with your minion waves. And then with the other members of your team poking down the enemy, so this then creates alot of pressure for the enemy, and usually pushes them back for a free tower or potentially an engagement when the tower falls.

Usually a team would do it after getting baron, for the health regen not what ekko does/can do

LordGeovanni1 votes

ekkos one non damageing skill than you can easily put your w directly under you and jump out of out ranges ziggs w how the hell does he count as out rangeing these champions ekkos q is relitabely close until it pushes out in a larger sphere as a slower movement that part is easily dodgeable and the so is the pull back. the only time ekko would use his e is if he gets 2 stack of q on you. with velkoz too velkoz can lay down his w for harass and q for poke and slow and use his e if ekko ever gets too close. only problem is with ekko is that he does so much damage due to his high scaleing and base damage skills and high scaleing and base damage and low cooldown passive ekkos ult global with in the range of exactly where you were 4 seconds ago

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