"You're Bronze/Silver"

Daedalus871·Apr 8, 2015·64 votes·4,815 views

While this shouldn't be the end all argument and could use some support, it isn't a completely horrible argument. Of course, this depends on the type of argument you are using it against.

For an example: If I said "Supportplank is good, I have a ~70% win rate with him" and that was my entire argument, "You're silver, anything could work down there" would be an appropriate response. It'd be nice if you said why you think Supportplank doesn't work as well, but you provided a reasonable counterargument to my point.

However if I said "Supportplank is good, he has tons of harass, more gold income than most supports, can become a late game threat, global presense with ult, ad steroid for ADC", then "You're silver" is no longer an appropriate response as my reasons are no longer based solely on my preformanace.

TLDR: Elo can matter in an argument, but only when that argument is based solely off of performance.

119 Comments

KarlyrApr 8, 201529 votes

However if I said "Supportplank is good, he has tons of harass, more gold income than most supports, can become a late game threat, global presense with ult, ad steroid for ADC",

And then I say to you that support gangplank doesn't bring any peel to your adc, which is ultra bad. AND A GOOD ARGUMENT IS STARTED.

IcyPepperApr 8, 20159 votes

Yeah basically. Logic against logic, and fair to both sides.

Mr HyddeApr 8, 20152 votes

logic vs logic rarely occurs. even if you are logic xyz why he is good. rebuttal of stfu noob is nearly 100% gaurenteed

Daedalus871Apr 8, 20158 votes

Then I say "Slows are really underrated and GP can permaslow someone in his ult, plus he usually gets IBG or Randys".

But your argument brings up a reasonable point about supportplank, he lacks hard cc.

KarlyrApr 8, 20156 votes

But you know, thats all because I'm diamond.

https://www.getdigital.eu/web/getdigital/gfx/products/__generated__resized/1100x1100/Aufkleber_Trollface.jpg

But more seriously, it's not that much about the CC that it's about helping the adc. If gangplank would be able to "throw" his agrumes with his W, it might become a thing just because of the healing + (as you said) poke. He would still get out classed by sona and nami on the poke part (because of the range, mainly) but would also offer a good counter to hard engagers (annie, braum, leona)

And for the "more gold income part", this is flawed imo. Yes, you get a bit more gold from each cs, but you won't cs enough (with relic sheild) to make this really count.

Garlyle WildsApr 8, 20156 votes

Gangplank can't really peel off targets who've already jumped on your carry, yes.

That said, that's not the only form of threat opposing supports can bring to the table. I'd willingly run Supportplank against a Thresh or Morgana. Why? Simple: You can just body block their major CC and hit a button and the entire thing's over in about half a second. And then you laugh. It's honestly a lot more reliable than trying to help your ADC run away after they've already been CC'd for 2-3 seconds in a row.

It's still suboptimal, mind you.

KarlyrApr 8, 20151 votes

You pretty much summed it all up. You can body block CC with Gangplank, but the day that your adc gets CC'ed, well it's over, he's dead.

Seriously, if riot made it so that you can target the person that you want to CC remove... Oh god, support GP would probably be a thing.

Garlyle WildsApr 8, 20151 votes

Agreed.

Actually, to be real, I wouldn't mind if Gangplank became a common support and/or Riot worked to support it.

KarlyrApr 8, 20152 votes

But he's supposed to be a pirate ! A MANLY pirate !

Not Miss Fortune bitch. :P (Even though I'd enjoy piracy bot lane)

Ariel the CruelApr 9, 20152 votes

Don't knock double-pirate bot lane. It's brutal.

ShinjusukeApr 8, 20153 votes

Dunno why people don't use it, but Mikael's fixes the supportplank problem if you're good at using it. Not entirely, mind you, but it turns it from "gimmick" to "almost legitimate"

LeeDarkApr 8, 20151 votes

More gold isn't JUST from shooting the minions you get to take with Relic Shield. The global presence of his ult also allows for easy assists.

That said, the reason GP is a bad support is that he doesn't really fit into any particular support role. He certainly isn't a sustain support, meant to help a late game ADC just stay in lane safely and farm. He has poor hard engage, even once he hits six, compared to other hard engage champs. And while he has decent poke, it isn't as good as a true poke support like Sona. All he really offers is (since he is a support) VERY VERY late game damage. At a full five items, since the other item slot would be filled by Sightstone, he would offer more damage than most other supports. This would pretty much require not needing Mikael's, and having good engage potential in other roles on the team. Even then, he would probably only work as a specific counterpick to something like Morg, where he can completely negate her Q for pretty much the entire game if he bodyblocks well.

He is in for a rework, I think, though, and it would be interesting to let his oranges be tossed to other champions. An AD support is something we don't really have yet.

Daedalus871Apr 8, 20152 votes

From personal experience, GP counters hard engage supports, such as Leona. Generally, you're farther up than your ADC, so you become the target of aggression instead of your ADC. They go in, you eat some oranges, get out of CC, heal, pop a cap in their ADC, and run away.

Healing supports, however, tend to counter him.

Mecha MaIphiteApr 8, 201587 votes

He has all his peels left over from eating those oranges.

HeadHonchkrowApr 8, 20154 votes

You sir, have made my day

H0riz0n234Apr 8, 20152 votes

You just got rekt kid Supportplank here I come.

10TicklerApr 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And then I say to you that support gangplank doesn't bring any peel to your adc, which is ultra bad. AND A GOOD ARGUMENT IS STARTED.

Slows Don't Peel

Quality posts from Platinums folks

KarlyrApr 9, 20151 votes

Never wrote that slows don't peel. Gangplank 7% isn't even something you should consider during a laning phase honnestly.

Michael C137Apr 8, 20156 votes

I love how a good majority of people in this thread just skipped over the elo part and jumped right into talking about Ganplank. Yo ho ho, and a bottle of.... RUM! Gangplank

Garlyle WildsApr 8, 20155 votes

Hey, I'm always up for a good Gangplank thread.

KoddaApr 8, 20155 votes

I hate it when im playing ranked and we have a conversation like that, then if i win he just says "shut up silver noob"

It's funny since if im in silver then he's also silver, so they just called themselves a noob. Too bad they don't acknowledge it.

FirexSaberApr 8, 20155 votes

It seems like a lot of people missed the point of this thread. The thread isn't actually about arguing about GP support, it was just an example of a conversation that could be had. o.O

Also maybe bronze/silver players don't know what they're talking about as much as higher elo (which is why they're silver and bronze) BUT these are forums. Forums are here so people can talk about whatever it is they want to talk about. Being told what their elo is isn't very helpful, as I'm pretty sure they already know what it is.

Maybe that argument would be fine in say, a pre-game chat since there isn't much time, but when people are looking to have conversations, posting that is pretty useless. You might as well not be posting at all since it doesn't push forward the conversation.

Big HansApr 8, 20154 votes

Considering that the playerbase of silver and bronze make up the majority of all LoL players then you could say the experiences and opinions of the players in those tiers are more relevant then that of challengers who make up the 1% of the 1%.

Daedalus871Apr 8, 20156 votes

I would, but Riot seems to like balancing around the LC$.

Curling VeigarApr 8, 20154 votes

I have a feeling the person who said "you're bronze/silver" is one of those people stuck at the bottom of gold 5

ShinjusukeApr 9, 20151 votes

In any situation, Gold V is still better than Bronze/Silver. That's why the overwhelmingly vast majority of players are cut off below Gold.

Silents429Apr 8, 20153 votes

Except your rank doesn't tell people your elo.

Judging anyone by rank is fricken stupid. Some people simply don't play or enjoy ranked, and get good at the game with normals (me) yet I still have to listen to morons tell me I was a bronze last season despite me only playing the promos and nothing more, and somehow me being bronze invalidates anything I say.

Daedalus871Apr 8, 20152 votes

It's a close enough approximation.

Silents429Apr 8, 20152 votes

No it isn't. It doesn't mean jack for people who don't play ranked.

KarlyrApr 8, 20151 votes

Elo does exist in normal, but is a lot less structurated then it is in ranked. In normal people do all sort of crazy stuff. The elo there is a lot less valuable than in ranked play.

Yes judging people solely by their rank is dumb. But you gotta give credits to them too. top 10% isn't something you should rub in people face, but something that they should at least try to listen to.

It's not because you are bronze that you are wrong on everything. It just means that you know less overall.

Knowledge is hard to evaluate. It overlaps and everything. But when a higher ranking than you starts an argument with you, (A proper argument) and you come back with a line along the lines of : "You don't know shit". Well... I don't want to be rude, but he was probably right and you were probably wrong.

I'm not saying everything a high rank player says is cash. But discuss with them. A proper argument will either make you learn from the game either show an aspect that a higher ranked player might not have seen. And sometimes even both.

And for the "I'm not playing ranked because of player judging me", as I always say, if someone judges you solely by your rank, they are just dumbasses and are not worth to talk to.

Silents429Apr 8, 20152 votes

It's not because you are bronze that you are wrong on everything. It just means that you know less overall.

No that is not how it works. Rank doesn't imply experience, when dozens of situations exist that could have brought them to that point.

Higher rank does not mean experience a person who gets to diamond on his first season doesn't have more experience then a bronze player thats played since season 1.

I played the game since season 3 and I only played ranked for half a month last season, Me being bronze doesn't mean I lack any knowledge or experience.

A problem occurs when people associate being wrong with low rank, and being right with higher rank.

KarlyrApr 8, 20152 votes

Let's leave the completly free insult of the "cocky stuck up" out of this.

Being higher ranked means more experience which means (by definition) to more knowledge. Having experienced more different scenarios also implies knowing how to respond to them.

From theory crafting new "OP" champions from a patch notes, this is open to interpretation since it brings something new, unexpected, not experienced. People will react differently at each elo.

But higher experienced people will know how to handle these new scenarios quicker because they have more experience with similar scenarios.

I'm not discrediting bronze or silver players. They know some too. I said it, will keep saying it, won't stop saying it. But there are more chances of a bronze being wrong about the game than a diamond being wrong.

Which is also why the most random viable innovations comes from lower ranked play and inspire some higher ranks. AP tryndamere wasn't something Voyboy invented, some random dudes in lower elo clearly tried that out and it worked. But I'm also pretty sure Voyboy didn't take it right as it was and made some adjustements to it. He also knew when to bust it out with the meta champions.

Silents429Apr 9, 20151 votes

No. Higher rank doesn't mean more experience. More experience means more experiences. Just because someone spent there time grinding in ranked instead of normals doesn't mean he has more experience then a guy playing for the same amount of time but instead only does normals.

Experience = Time

And unless the diamond fellow has been playing for a large amount of time, I don't give a rats ass what his rank is. Majority of the League playerbase is silver and bronze, and a lot of those people have played for at least 2 years now, they have more experience then a lot of high ranked people because they have seen and played more matches, they have experienced more changes then they have.

I would damn sure listen to a 2 year silver ranked person over a 1 year diamond ranked person.

KarlyrApr 9, 20151 votes

If I transcribe your affirmation to "real life". You would listen to a 20 years homeopath over a 10 years doctor ?

Do you realize that experience doesn't only come with time in that specific game / domain, but also with all the background that the person has.

If a diamond player calls for drake after X play, there is a reason behind it but he might not have the time to explain why in game. The same goes with a doctor vs the homeopath. The docotor learned at school most of the possible outcomes and will try to take the best path for the patient. The homeopath on the other hand, dismiss what the doctors says and treats his own ways ending in "He would have died anyway from regular medecine"

This said, I'll say it back once more because you seem to forget it, I never said that in theory crafting, the opinion of a bronze player should be discounted, it's just less likely that the player knows all the variables opposed to the diamond player who experienced a lot more of them and is able to judge what is the best decision for the best outcome.

Yandere CarryApr 10, 20151 votes

bronze players dont know anything and need to copy what higher elos do. diamond players are op.

KarlyrApr 11, 20151 votes

You did not understand a single thing I said. I said that most innovation comes from low elo that gives a spark for the higher rankings most of the times. But lower rankings sometimes just start that as a joke.

From there if there is really potential Diamonds will "upgrade that idea even further. Lower elos have great ideas, but even more of bad ones.

Yandere CarryApr 8, 20152 votes

gangplank is bad in general. Making him super poor and removing all the good things more traditional supports do for adcs doesn't help that in anyway.

Daedalus871Apr 8, 201519 votes

This is a perfect example of where a ranked card would be appropriate. It's mostly mindless sheep babble.

Yandere CarryApr 8, 20152 votes

this isn't a ranked card. this is a logical argument. a more ranked card answer would be in response to someone pulling that "Oh but iceborn gauntlet" argument... would go about

"Iceborn gauntlet is extremely expensive. stop assuming you're magically fed to hell. just trust me, it sucks. stop thinking bronze tactics work in elos where games dont last 60 minutes"

Daedalus871Apr 8, 201512 votes

I said pulling the ranked card on you would be acceptable in this case.

Example: You: GP is bad in general. Hypothetical Diamond Player: Shut up you gold noob. You don't know squat.

In that case, it would be acceptable for said diamond player to play the rank card as your argument is mostly mindless sheep babble.

Yandere CarryApr 8, 20151 votes

Only flaw with that is that it isn't sheep babble. GP is just bad. There are a lot of reasons as to WHY he is bad.

Me:GP is bad because X reasons.

Hypothetical diamond: shutup gold noob.

Me: what about X reasons

hypothetical diamond: oh yea, im not retarded... good point.

Laughing FishApr 8, 201511 votes

Thing is, you haven't actually given "X reasons".

BetaDude40Apr 8, 201511 votes

Except you never provided a reason as to why Gangplank was bad. So you don't even have X reasons if you've never specified what X is.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbApr 9, 20152 votes

Supportplank doesn't work because:

His harass runs him out of mana after a few Qs. On top of that, the gold increase from your Q isn't even going to get you much extra.
Unless you're running targons, your adc will not appreciate you taking last hits for your Q.
His ult sucks unless you build AP, in which case, the only other good spell you have is oranges, and maybe lich bane on Q
The only thing you peel is oranges. The piddly slow on his passive doesn't get you shit, and you ult isn't up often enough to be worth using just for that.
Most supports offer some form of engage or disengage. GP offers a minor ms buff and a global ult with a slow and shitty damage. While that can be, hypothetically speaking, a form of either, it's extremely subpar for both.
No hard cc.
No heals.
Late game damage potential is also covered by most viable mage supports, and better. Annie and Brand come with hard cc, and better damage. They don't have to choose between builds, either.
Minimal escapability.

Basically, all he really adds to a lane is his poke and minimalsoft cc. Other supports that have poke can usually spam it more, and come with more utility on top of that. The reason this works in silver is because a lot of silver supports are there for a reason. Many can't ward for shit, don't know how to apply pressure, can't help set up last hits under tower, aren't proficient on their champ, don't know when to push or freeze, don't know when to go for kills or back off, or just generally suck. If they think supporting is standing there soaking xp and not doing anything until you get engaged on, of course you win on GP.

The thing is, you'll see all variety of shit like that in silver and especially bronze. So yes, fucking anything works in silver. Just because GP has some poke and soft cc doesn't make him viable as support. By that logic, anyone can support. Honestly, if you want an unconventional support, pick ashe. Longer range poke, better hard engage (if well aimed and timed, can be 4 seconds (also read: a free kill)), more (fuck tons) slow, crit potential in lane, long range vision ability.

GoofleApr 9, 20152 votes

Bla bla bla, x champion is good, y champion is bad but I'm still trash at the game, so does it even matter?

KomePrePongoApr 8, 20151 votes

Bronze\silver players have biggest ego in this community, because they are sure their opinion is significally relevant than opinion of higher ranks, because they are majority. That's so lame.

Hellish ProphecyApr 8, 20154 votes

So you generalize EVERY Bronze/Silver with that statement?

Michael C137Apr 8, 201511 votes

Nah dude plat players have the biggest ego's.

How do you know if some one is platinum in league of legends? Don't worry, he will fucking tell you.

KarlyrApr 8, 20157 votes

^This. Currently plat 4 and oh god is that true. Even in ranked game which are evenly matched people just go "Let me do what I do". Me : BUT HELP US WITH DRAKE GOD.

Wait... I just said that I was plat 4... So I have a big ego according to your statement... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Michael C137Apr 8, 20154 votes

HAHAHAHA I was gonna say.... +1 for good sport though!