"Riot should balance around top tier play"

Arya Riven·Jan 23, 2017·35 votes·2,034 views

I agree. But with some concessions.

While I agree in general. Garen's current kit, along with some other point and click stat checks, cannot be balanced for the current pro scene. These generic stat check champions would have to be buffed to insane numbers to be viable. And then would become more reliable and thus too strong. This happened with Shyvana, Udyr, Yi and Olaf before. Granted New Shyvana might be more balancable like new Darius is, as Darius now has options and counterplay, but overall stat checks being balanced around top tier play will never be viable.

This is exactly why the Warwick rework is so good. While it kept his fantasy, it gave him counterplay and options. Allowing for future tuning for high tier play. While a champion like Garen, this will not work without a rework.

90 Comments

Big LincolnJan 23, 20178 votes

why does everyone use Garen as the go to stat check when ADCs are the biggest stat checks in existence

AhristocatsJan 23, 20173 votes

Draven Jhin you see stat checks? i see kits that can be played around

Big LincolnJan 23, 20178 votes

exception not the rule

Vayne Tristana Kindred Quinn KogMaw Twitch Urgot

range is the ultimate stat check

AhristocatsJan 23, 20172 votes

agreed

TurquoiseYoshiJan 23, 20172 votes

Because marksmen are very squishy, allowing for the counterplay of getting on top of them and bursting them down while they attempt to kite you away. Garen just kinda runs at you and you might die, while he's tanky enough to not die immediately when he runs in.

Big LincolnJan 23, 20175 votes

you can counterplay Garen by keeping him away from your important teammates, he has no ability to prevent being peeled aside the one slow cleanse

LostFr0stJan 23, 20173 votes

They don't balance for pro, they balance for Plat/Diamond tier.

Arya RivenJan 23, 201721 votes

They should balance for challenger and master tier. The game would have fewer issues. Noobs can adapt and practice. Pros can't become less good for the sake of finding a balanced version of League.

LostFr0stJan 23, 20173 votes

Why? Plat/Diamond is already a smaller and more skilled portion of the playerbase, part of what makes league awesome is that its skillfloor is accessible to all types of players. Its a nice balance between competitive and everyone else.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20177 votes

Because this means high diamond+master+challenger should get a plat level to get a balanced game which doesn't make sens

i'm playing in diamond2/1, and Sona is FAR different in balance state than in plat/diamond, 53% win rate in plat+, and 48.9% win rate above d5, i don't even know what's the win rate in d1+ probably inflated by the low sample since no one picks her

WoonStruckJan 23, 20171 votes

People that can't reach plat MMR don't seem to understand that Plat actually isn't that good. Bronze through Gold players are just REALLY bad at the game, comparatively.

Plat is where you start to understand the game.

LauchmelderJan 23, 20173 votes

There's a difference between understanding and being mechanically able to get up there. If it comes to decisionmaking and warding I'm quite good, but my mechanics are worse. That's why I now main champions like Azir, Cassiopeia or Ryze. They require decent mechanics to pull off well.

WoonStruckJan 23, 20172 votes

Mechanics are a learning process just as much as the rest of the game.

You have to understand and execute on those mechanics to succeed more often than others just like you have to understand the game and execute on that knowledge to succeed more often than others.

There is a difference, sure. But you still have to understand both in order to really start to understand the game.

LostFr0stJan 23, 20171 votes

Plat/ Diamond level; not Plat. The playtest team is Diamond+ (with rare exceptions).

While I realize that difference with champs, I still don't see why that would make it a better game overall. We'd just end up with more pubstompy champs.

AhristocatsJan 23, 20176 votes

because it encourages low elo players to become better at the game, but if you nerf garen and xin zhao for them they won't have this in their mind instead of "playing around this champ"

but like it was said above we need to stop making stat-check melees that don't let you play around their kit unlike darius

second thing is that the game will be SO MUCH BETTER IN HIGH ELO everyone doesn't care about this but i do because i play there, i just talked right now with a master tier mid lane player (Ninetails LFT) he's sick of playing the game in competition (go4lol) because it's always the same picks

LostFr0stJan 23, 20171 votes

Low elo players won't get better at the game regardless of balancing. They'll just find something else to complain about and blame their team for instead of improving themselves. We both know that. All that this "improved balancing" would do is turn away new players by raising the skillfloor. I can already see the "go back to practice mode" posts now.

You are saying that Darius is a shining example, correct? I agree that Darius has good counterplay (dodge pull and GTFaway so you don't proc his passive and kill your team) and it's cool that he's still very viable in high elo since his team can still enable him to get stuff done in fights. The other melees don't have that and I think that's the real problem here.

Garen and Xin aren't viable in competitive for the same reason Tryndamere isn't. They get shut down easily in the one thing they can do. That doesn't mean that Riot doesn't balance all three of them around Plat/Diamond+.

Isn't the pause between new champs right now to solve exactly what you guys are talking about? To find ways to buff underperforming champs for high elo while not buffing them in low elo since it'll expand on mechanics not used often there?

I think the Yi meditate stuff is clever, and I'm excited to see what else they'll think up.

I have an additional question: Do you lump Illaoi in there with Garen or ?

AhristocatsJan 23, 20172 votes

{quoted} isn't the pause between new champs right now to solve exactly what you guys are talking about? To find ways to buff underperforming champs for high elo while not buffing them in low elo since it'll expand on mechanics not used often there?

then you're balancing the game around high elo, high elo is diamond1/master/challenger to me, because the difference between d1 and challenger is way way way lower than d1 and d5

{quoted} I think the Yi meditate stuff is clever, and I'm excited to see what else they'll think up.

Indeed, i love this yi buff so much (not a yi main but want a balanced game)

{quoted} I have an additional question: Do you lump Illaoi in there with Garen or ?

No, illaoi literally has her 5 spells working together while giving counterplay and isn't rightclicking=gg like tryndamere, she's in darius's tier of design

what i like with yasuo/fiora/gp is as hypercarries 100% of their damage don't come from AA like trynd or yi, yasuo has to hit his Q and i see a lot of yasuo missing it, fiora has to hit vital points and as a darius player when i'm against a fiora believe me that i use it, and gp's barrels of course

Champions shouldn't be like xin zhao, getting stats and rightclicking while having no gameplay

Sona is a bit like that, she just has spells you use without gameplay and pray that it's enough (except her passive)

LostFr0stJan 23, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UbTIsOZ1,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-23T21:14:16.862+0000)

then you're balancing the game around high elo, high elo is diamond1/master/challenger to me, because the difference between d1 and challenger is way way way lower than d1 and d5

Then I guess we have no quarrel and we'll be set in a few months. If it works I have no doubt they'll keep doing that. I don't mind that as long as it's not "accessible" to the people that don't even read their tooltips.

Indeed, i love this yi buff so much (not a yi main but want a balanced game)

No, illaoi literally has her 5 spells working together while giving counterplay and isn't rightclicking=gg like tryndamere, she's in darius's tier of design

Was hoping you'd say that^^ So I can't even remember the last champ that was designed without that then... Aatrox probs? But he's on the change-block too...

what i like with yasuo/fiora/gp is as hypercarries 100% of their damage don't come from AA like trynd or yi, yasuo has to hit his Q and i see a lot of yasuo missing it, fiora has to hit vital points and as a darius player when i'm against a fiora believe me that i use it, and gp's barrels of course

Yeah, Yasuo especially has that low elo vs high elo problem. Maybe with the shift in power from E incentivising him to max Q people can finally stop banning him and then they can buff him a different way so that higher elos can actually use him again...

Champions shouldn't be like xin zhao, getting stats and rightclicking while having no gameplay

They plan on reworking Xin (It was in one of the redposts; I could prob dig it up) he has long been outclassed by the other divers.

Sona is a bit like that, she just has spells you use without gameplay and pray that it's enough (except her passive)

Her passive is so much fun. Especially when you mess with the enemies' heads by using W powercord and they have no idea why they didn't do full dmg.

Aside: did the recent Sona shift make her better up there or nah? I'd think you'd be able to get in more passive procs late, but I'm guessing the current bot meta isn't exactly Sona-friendly.

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Aside: did the recent Sona shift make her better up there or nah? I'd think you'd be able to get in more passive procs late, but I'm guessing the current bot meta isn't exactly Sona-friendly.

for a moment she was balanced in high elo, by balanced i mean a perfect win rate but it broke her hard in plat+ where her win rate was like 58%

that's why i told you we have to balance the game around high elo and plat+ isn't high elo because there is a difference between plat+ and d1+

Overall the bot meta isn't friendly to Sona who is one of the best teamfight support if riot wants to make her viable in high elo without breaking low elo they have to rework her

conclusion: she's garbage, i only met one Sona in my 300 ranked games of d1/d2 (except myself of course) the only challenger who plays her is AWildApSona as full ap mid, this is sad support sona is in a sad spot

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

I think that was just a meta thing :/ Right now all of her most hated opponents are bot. 5 Enemy bot fiestas probably don't help either lol.

Anywhere that comes to mind where they could Yi her? I know they did the whole tagging allies with W (prob annoying), but anywhere else?

If we think of somewhere that separates super high level Sona from average Sona, we can build on it and maybe suggest something to them.

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If we think of somewhere that separates super high level Sona from average Sona, we can build on it and maybe suggest something to them.

if you want to do this while keeping her current kit, then you need to massively shift her power into her passive, because it's the only thing that requieres decisions, and the only thing that has versatility+gameplay

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

Needed to do this; reached boards cap :P

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UbTIsOZ1,comment-id=000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T10:11:08.338+0000)

if you want to do this while keeping her current kit, then you need to massively shift her power into her passive, because it's the only thing that requieres decisions, and the only thing that has versatility+gameplay

Yeah, I had a feeling it had to be her passive, but I can't think of a way to do this without making it so that more than one key decides the passive proc that gets used. Then if I do a version (lets say that uses the last 3 keys) I can't think of a way where QQQ or WWW or EEE isn't the best proc.

I also don't want to take away from the moment by moment decision making.. But maybe that wouldn't be bad since it would nerf people that don't plan?

I guess 2 would probably work, but that might shift more of her power to late game which I don't think is wanted.

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

in 2013 a Sona player asked riot if she could be reworked to be similar from invoker in dota2

basically the order of Q/W/E made a different power chord and you couldn't stack a stack of powerchord by using 2 times same spell which would ended with 6 different power chord Q+W+E Q+E+W W+Q+E W+E+Q E+Q+W E+W+Q

zileas answered by saying that they don't want league's champions to have too much knowledge meanwhile Ryze was released with ten thousand billion of combo

the other thing you could do is simply make power chord stronger with numbers while nerfing a bit Q/W/E

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

That was 2013 though... hmmm

She's so squishy ;.; I think the problem was that she couldn't stay there long enough to even get the passive she wants if it's 3+cds on the abilities you'd need :/ ... unless there was a reset or something, but that adds power to Sona, not good Sonas... If it was 2 abilities it wouldn't be as"locked" as 3 is and the crappy Sonas would still get a passive but not the full nuances of it. They just spam off cd. What if there were pauses where she needs to save cds for a bit to get a better one? Or is that a no-no? There would still be more "hidden" ones then (like W and E powercord in low elo right now...) QQ QW or WQ WW WE or EW EE EQ or QE

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

What if there were pauses where she needs to save cds for a bit to get a better one?

didn't understand you there

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

So you hit E then wait for E to come off cd again to use it after the other E for the specific powercord. Would add tempo.

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

of course this idea works

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

Is that sarcasm QQ or are you legit saying it would actually work?

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

it increases her skillcap, something needed for a lot of reasons so yes it can work, everything that can increases her skillcap while not changing a lot her kit can work

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UbTIsOZ1,comment-id=000000000000000000020000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T12:08:36.422+0000)

it increases her skillcap, something needed for a lot of reasons so yes it can work, everything that can increases her skillcap while not changing a lot her kit can work

so, we'd need the new passives then. (I switched the matchings so they end in the same key instead to not alienate current Sonas.)

Powercord: QW or EW---> current W Diminuendo ---dmg reduced EQ or WQ---> current Q Staccato ---dmg WE or QE---> current E Tempo ---slow

These next ones would be the pause powercords; can call them "Fermata" ("hold/pause") in the tooltip:

EE---> Andante "at a walking pace" or Ritenudo "suddenly slower/held back":

Sets them to base ms, removing all bonus ms from items, runes, masteries etc. They aren't locked at this ms, it just "resets them" to it so their allies can still ms boost them after the cord hits to save them. Wears off after 1.5 seconds.

WW---> Pianissimo "very soft" or Estinto "non-existent, as soft as possible":

negates targets damage output for .25 or .5 seconds? <---probably too busted...

QQ---> Spiccato "Distinct, separated" special Staccato for stringed instruments; hers doesn't have a bow though :( or Sforzando (sudden strong accent) or Forte :

Tagged allies get a bonus on their next auto too? IDK kinda blank on this one.

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

staccato bonus damage needs to be changed to something else cause it's worthless on support sona

else i don't know about your ideas but your passive system is good

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

I thought her Q bonus dmg was her pressure in lane? Not sure what else could it be replaced with, it's kinda iconic even on support Sona...

Any suggestions, even random single-word ones would be nice. I can sift through and build on that. I just don't know Sona well enough to remove/replace it myself.

Hmm, maybe I should make a separate post and hope for a bunch of wild Sonas to attack it? Would you be cool with that? I would of course credit our conversation here as the source of it.

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

Boards broke again...

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UbTIsOZ1,comment-id=00000000000000000002000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T13:22:43.765+0000)

staccato bonus damage needs to be changed to something else cause it's worthless on support sona

else i don't know about your ideas but your passive system is good

I thought her Q bonus dmg was her pressure in lane? Not sure what else could it be replaced with, it's kinda iconic even on support Sona...

Any suggestions, even random single-word ones would be nice. I can sift through and build on that. I just don't know Sona well enough to remove/replace it myself.

Hmm, maybe I should make a separate post and hope for a bunch of wild Sonas to attack it? Would you be cool with that? I would of course credit our conversation here as the source of it.

Dabrick01Jan 23, 20171 votes

Not entirely true. They balance MOSTLY around Diamond+

BUT

They still take notice of balance issues in Pro Play and use them to balance the game.

They may play ON the same game as us, but they do NOT play the same game as us.`

AhristocatsJan 23, 20173 votes

if they did this yasuo wouldn't have been nerfed

Dabrick01Jan 23, 20172 votes

He was getting a bit too powerful up in the diamond level, but his power level and win rate went up as you went down leagues. He was getting too powerful over all levels and needed a bit of tweaking to his early game.

CochoJan 24, 20172 votes

If they balanced for the monkeys I play with/against in plat XD LOL

i know they don't, but the thought was just hilarious

LostFr0stJan 24, 20171 votes

ikr^^"

PennsJan 23, 20172 votes

"Darius has options and counterplay" good one xd Jk, on paper he does, but it still feels oppressive af when the "easy to kite" "juggernaut" runs at you with item 3742 and has a hook with standard adc range as well as 2 heavy slows lol.

Arya RivenJan 23, 20172 votes

Darius has plenty of counterpicks and counterplay in master and challenger. He is a tad overtuned atm. But Riot is nerfing him. His design is solid however.

PennsJan 23, 20172 votes

Counterpicks maybe, but counterplay? Idk.. My problem with those juggernauts/tanks like Darius or Singed that are "easy to kite" is that they arent, with all that move speed from items and spells. At least not without cc locking them 5v1, which I wouldnt really call "counterplay".

AhristocatsJan 23, 201711 votes

counterplay is not getting hit by the blade of his Q this one alone counters 50% of his kit counterplay is disengaging while he has noxian might counterplay is killing him asap before he has 5 stacks

all of this is better than vayne's counterplay

cocacolalipsJan 24, 20171 votes

a good darius will W you for the slow right before he Q you, which makes it unavoidable without a dash on demand, so yeah, right back at you, no counterplay, but counterpick, you need a spammable dash to do anything (good luck finding lotta champions with spammable dashes on 5 seconds cooldown before cooldown reduction btw)

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

No, W into Q is something that can be done but should not be used to justifie the need to pick dash champions

because you can also slow darius and this will prevent him to run enough units to get the blade, you can also CC him, and darius can't use W everytime before using Q

cocacolalipsJan 24, 20171 votes

W is a 90% slow at lvl 1, Q and W have the same cooldown, there might be a small gap between level 5 and level 9 maybe depending on how he levels up his stuff, but that's pretty much irrelevant since once he hits 6 you are dead either way unless you are kayle or wukong (oh look you also need to counterpick his R, fun stuff)

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

i'm talking about fucking teamfight, in teamfight you don't have the time to hit W in some cases

{quoted}

pretty much irrelevant since once he hits 6 you are dead

then we're not playing the same game, no point in continuing to argue here

cocacolalipsJan 24, 20171 votes

rofl, who cares about teamfights, mages stomp teamfights on every map at every point in the game, that's irrelevant, summoner rift games are over in the laning pahse by the 10 minutes mark when you are 0-6 against darius with a 3k lead gold + dragon + soon baron + soon inhibitor + super minions

AhristocatsJan 24, 20171 votes

We do in high elo

{quoted}

rofl, who cares about teamfights, mages stomp teamfights on every map at every point in the game,

surprised? mages are picked 99% of the time

{quoted} you are 0-6 against darius with a 3k lead gold + dragon + soon baron + soon inhibitor + super minions

get good at the game seriously lol

cocacolalipsJan 24, 20171 votes

rofl, you cant argue for crap, darius will dumpster you in the laning phase unless counterpicked (the whole discussion you know, counterplay vs counterpick) and will win the game from there, you acknowledged that fact with your ignorant "teamfight duh" reply.

edit: you are actually a darius one trick LMAO, you lost all credibility bye.

Arya RivenJan 23, 20173 votes

Counterplay.

Dodge pull Dodge Q Play around his stacks Understand his ult resets All in him when he misses his Q All out him when he has 5 stacks