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"BURST KILLS EVERYTHING TOO FAST!"

Mira Arya Enthe··96 votes·5,537 views

"I have nooooo idea why anti-burst peel/heal supports and items are so strong tho. Better nerf them again so only mages can support."

Lulu Janna Nami Soraka

While I agree these champions have some frustrating aspects. For the most part they are fine. Yet anytime assassins, skirmishers, bursty ADCs, burst mages and divers get strong I see the same thing "Wtf why are supports strong!?!"

These champions naturally counter the burst and dives everyone has been bitching about for months. By denying instant kills they demand other more strategic approaches be used. It raises the value of sustained damage. And they can empower their tanks and sustained damage dealers. Which usually means fights will last longer. I don't think we should nerf these champions(except perhaps Lulu's harass or whimsy). I think we should buff the suffering tank supports to match their success.

Part of why nobody likes support is both the community and Riot often assume they are suppose to be powerless, minor digits added to their team with minimal effect except being a warding slave.

I begin to wonder if this community really does want damage toned down and tanks viable, since they bitch anytime something stops them from one shotting without counterplay.

And no they aren't countering the meta too hard or we wouldn't still have dozens of p/b burst champions.

157 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear15 votes

These champions naturally counter the burst and dives everyone has been bitching about for months. By denying instant kills they demand other more strategic approaches be used. It raises the value of sustained damage. And they can empower their tanks and sustained damage dealers. Which usually means fights will last longer. I don't think we should nerf these champions(except perhaps Lulu's harass or whimsy). I think we should buff the suffering tank supports to match their success.

This so much. This is why I can't stand these boards sometimes.

They want a solution to burst, and mage "supports" can't save them.

Only the true mage supports can.

But yet when they get back in the meta the boards want them gone. I mean this is just ridiculous. I can only think of a few fringe cases where these supports can be overbearing, and you mentioned most of them already.

But what do people say when these champs get strong?

"I can't burst people through an insert arbitrary number here HP shield!" Well gee, maybe if burst wasn't so bloody much, we wouldn't need shields like this, now would we?

But no, these boards just want their cake and to eat it too. But here's another good one.

"They make the laning phase boring."

Well, maybe if you stopped picking fights against champs like this, and tried to earn gold through CSing instead of supplementing missed CS for kills, you wouldn't have this problem. Either you get a bot-lane on a hair trigger where things blow up in this meta, or you get a more chill lane. Pick one for the love of--

/end rant.

Also give tank supports more love.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

The problem is shields are far too generic to "just counter burst" since they counter ALL damage and they last 5+ seconds so it isn't like you can wait them out. An ability that ACTUALLY counters burst is Galio's new ult which grants %DR for a VERY short period of time (I believe 1.5 seconds). The problem with shields is they counter all damage sources while EVERY singe shield in the game besides Locket gives an additional bonus because the shield itself obviously wasn't enough (Karma gives MS, Janna gives AD, Taric gives Armor, Face of the Mountain gives the slow on detonation, and Lulu gives her ADC over 2 B.F. swords per auto in mixed damage). Shields don't just make the receiver of shields unburstable, but also undamageable for the most part ESPECIALLY since Lifesteal is bought earlier on over half the ADC roster now (with BoRK first being optimal again). Kog/Lucian/Ashe+Lulu for instance can end up starting a fight with the carry getting chunked to half health (idk say an Ahri Charm+Q or something), Lulu proceeds to blow her load on the carry (WER+Maybe Locket) and then the carry is already back at full health WELL before the shield is broken due to the lifesteal+life-on-hit from Ardent Censer (another VERY overtuned item atm with AA reliant ADCs being reliant considering Kog/Ashe will probably heal 120+an auto due to runaans). Enchanters as they stand not only protect them from burst (the high "artificial health" from shields), but make them impossible to widdle down either because their shields have such short cds and also just let the ADC drain tank whatever sustained damage is coming their way.

tl;dr shields are far too generic to just counter burst and if we really want enchanters to strictly counter burst their "shields" need to act more like Galio ult and only last a shorter period of time and be stronger (thus only countering burst) and not be 5+ seconds and saying "f*ck you" to literally all damage aimed at the shielded target for 5+ seconds. You will ALWAYS get full value out of a shield in a teamfight because it WILL be fully drained, you won't always get full value out of short duration %DR (such as Galio ult) because results will vary (unlike ALWAYS shielding 300 damage or so). Changing this will also introduce skill expression into the support role outside of "use your shield on cd because it only has 2 seconds of downtime anyway".

Ralanr6 votes

Shields don't really counter dps. They counter burst because it ends up putting the abilities on cooldown so the burst champions can't do much until they are get off cooldown.

Dps doesn't have this weakness. You slow them down for maybe a second.

Big Lincoln11 votes

ok, buff more supports, but remove all instant point and click heals, shields, and all their targeted CCs. if they're going to be the pinnacle of balance then they should be able to fuck up

no more Lulu slapping her unmissable E, Locket, and Redemption down on her carry as soon as a caster minion aggros her

you can't complain about "no counterplay" if it doesn't go both ways

Ben Sharpio8 votes

adding skill to the support role is something support mains dont want. They want to be able to continue to point and click low CD shields that give incredibly stupid buffs to ADCs

Big Lincoln8 votes

i already know i'm right, lol. the healthiest support designs I M O are Nami Braum Bard Thresh Taric. between all 4 of them, they can actually fuck up or they have to have a 'condition' to something like their healing. Bard's needs 10 seconds to charge, Taric needs to give up his passive damage if he wants to have a sub-par heal (and it makes him burn through his mana) and his shield sucks for squishies since it has no flat values, Thresh's shield is ass, and Nami's heal has the bounce mechanic for an interesting mechanic.

no targeted CC, delayed spells, etc. great designs

these ones Soraka Janna Lulu Sona Alistar are dog shit

Penns3 votes

Tru but the Lulu mains are here FeelsBadMan xd

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

Lulu's primary if not only problems are whimsy's stength and/or her harass. Other than that she is fine. Know how many mastery points I have on Lulu? 0.

Penns3 votes

That and the fact that her W gives a hypercarry like fking 80% attack speed or something + makes them sanic for 4 seconds on ~6.5 sec cooldown while giving them her passive damage. Oh and the fact that she gives her adc over 1500 effective health... at level 11... with 2-3 items.

Mira Arya Enthe15 votes

Oh oh! Let's list Fizz's abilities and strengths that make him a champion and say he is stupid because of it... or Darius, Garen, Jhin, Shyvana, Leona, etc.

Naming what a champion's abilities do isn't an argument. Of course she shields, heals and buffs allies. She is a fucking support enchanter.

Penns3 votes

There is a difference between "abilities and strengths" and broken ass stuff tho lol.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

No. See you are one of those gut it into dust people.

"I agree fizz could use some nerfs to x and y" says the fizz main.

"NOT GUD ENOUGH HE STILL DOES X, X AND X HE NEEDS MASSIVE NERFS TO EVERYTHING AND HIS ITEMS TOO!!!!!" Says the boards member.

I don't get into that shit. Her whimsy and harass need nerfs. Otherwise she is just countering thw bullshit damage meta. Especially with nerfs to exhaust.

Mira Arya Enthe16 votes

Aside from her melee ranged Q what on Leona is targeted? Headbutt could be a skillshot, if we make it AoE on the hit :^ What point and click CC does Braum have? Bard? Thresh(hardly needs buffs tho) Blitz other than his E? Taric? Nami? Sona? Soraka?

For Whimsy, Janna's slow perhaps.

As for shields, heals and buffs. No. They do not interact directly with the enemy or "outplay" them directly. There is nothing to "dodge". Making them skillshots would just require toxic compensation buffs and lead to Vayne flaming every time she dodges heal.

Penns9 votes

Problem is that they dont have any counterplay themselves and Lulu Janna are by far the 2 best supports atm. "Counterpicks" are fine but they should still require some skill to win, they are champions too.

Mira Arya Enthe26 votes

Whimsy has no counterplay correct. Other than that these champions are fine. I play Shyvana primarily. Kiting is my weakness.

Penns5 votes

Shields in general have no "counterplay" unlike heals, items like Locket and items with %heal/shielding power just make it worse. You play Shyvana primarily, you dont rely on your burst.

Mira Arya Enthe9 votes

Except I do. Shyvana builds 3 damage items and relies on jumping on the enemy Jhin and going "E-AA-Q-TH" and hoping that kills them or leaves them close enough to finish before she gets peeled or killed. Her burst at full build on a squishy is between 1600 and 2400 depending on her build and if they have GA or not. Shyvana is a Diver/Juggernaut hybrid. But she lacks CC of either and has no in fight sustain in exchange.

No shields in videogames have solid counterplay for all classes. They are not suppose to. Like true damage they are suppose to be played around.

Penns1 votes

She builds 3 on hit damage items. So.. yea.

Mira Arya Enthe5 votes

Bloodrazor, TH, Mallet and BotRK. Sometimes suppliment one for Tri-force. Puns of damage when combined with her kit.

Ralanr30 votes

The counterplay to shields is breaking them or waiting them out.

Mira Arya Enthe11 votes

^

Penns5 votes

That would work if... idk.. https://i.gyazo.com/72f170579c57c83b4eaee27c8414a3ff.png wouldnt be a thing. And even then there would be no counterplay for assassins that all got more predictable with their reworks.

Ralanr24 votes

Almost as though assassins are meant to be hard countered by shields and supports.

Big Lincoln8 votes

but I thought riot was trying to get rid of hard counters ?_?

it's okay for supports though, huh?

Ralanr16 votes

Until they remove all targeted hard CC then I'll have to disagree. They aren't removing all, just making less common.

Besides how else are supports going to counter assassins? Can't heal the dead.

Big Lincoln4 votes

how come supports are exempt from the rules being applied to everyone else, then?

or, actually, just enchanters, because tank supports actually do have decision making, whereas the likes of Lulu and Janna and IVERN can just smack their shields on you and cock-block you disproportionately hard to the effort you put in to go for the kill.

is this healthy? Ivern's even more obnoxious about it because you can pop the shield and it'll still damage and slow you; him and Lulu have low CDs on their shields, too (Janna builds enough CDR that it's on a .5 second downtime assuming the shield never dies), so even if you manage to pop it it's unlikely that they won't be able to throw another shield on them before you can finish them off unless you're the hardest of burst champions like Veigar

this doesn't strike me as good design. the support isn't doing anything mechanically to stop you through smart play or good timing, they're just throwing additional stats onto their teammates that you have to try to burn through, and they're going to do it every time it's off CD until one of you chickens out or dies.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

supports counter assassins assassins counter carries carries counter supports

Its almost like they employ the principles of perfect imbalance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=perfect+imbalance+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Deal with it.

Big Lincoln5 votes

assassins were reworked specifically so that carries could counterplay them and beat them if they played well

huh, guess that perfect imbalance meme isn't working out after all

AMYS GRAVE15 votes

Well rengar and kha still 100-0 you from stealth, so it looks like those reworks didn't exactly do what you claim they were designed to do. Also its not a meme, its a game design principle.

Nuparu8 votes

And the end result is that LB got gutted for being broken, Rengar is still amazing at oneshotting people, Kha'Zix hasn't changed very much, and Talon bursts you even harder than before now.

What changed? Most carries still can't do a thing against Assassins.

DKM Bismarck3 votes

Talon does not burst harder than before as you cannot return R as it disperses like you used to be able to, and W returns slower too. Old Talon burst in 0.5 seconds if done perfectly

Imperial Japan5 votes

Instead your R can go all onto one enemy and you have a bleed which provides for more burst DAMAGE potential. Am I incorrect? The time may have gotten shorter but the burst got heavier.

Ralanr2 votes

Supports will probably be reworked later.

Spoofghoul2 votes

Sion Oh but you can heal the dead !!

you can even give them shields and speed ups

it gets even better when ardent censor/athene are involved

TLDR you can turn sions passive into a supermanzombie it's pretty disgusting haha

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

I wonder how long a sion passive can be kept alive by a team with heals for days.

How do you summon vandril to test this?

Spoofghoul1 votes

hmmm pretty long i think you will want to have item 3072 because the selfdamage targets its shield first

ZILLAGULA2 votes

[deleted]

Glory ln Death2 votes

Then break it.

ZILLAGULA2 votes

Such counterplay, wow. Not like that if I break it, the shield has already done what it needed to do.

Glory ln Death3 votes

So the shield fulfills its purpose. How is that a problem? You might as well complain that an auto attack dealt damage. What is the counterplay to an auto attack?

2Charmnot2Charm3 votes

I just don't get it, if the support is being a big problem then someone needs to do their job and kill that stupid support so the rest of the team falls apart.

It doesn't have to be when a 5v5 fight has already started, it could be as simple as catching that player out before anyone could react unless for whatever reason the people complaining team has 0 pick potential.

Glory ln Death3 votes

Exactly. There's way more counterplay to heals and shields than just break the shield or wait it out. Kill the support first, kill the support before the fight, zone the support away from the carries, stun the support so they can't use abilities, etc.

HeeroTX4 votes

It's almost like the biggest problem people have with supports is that Solo-Q is one giant Fiesta.... [zombie-brand-mindblown]

ZILLAGULA1 votes

[deleted]

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

This is why you're plat

Alright look at how many rank games i played in the last30 days and say that again smart ass :^)

Not like the Lulu also have the tools to protect herself and usually has exhaust as well.

That's what the CC is for, so she can't cast anything except for exhaust (if it's even up) which means she won't be buffing anyone not even herself.

Seriously do you people just draft a team comp with no CC/pick potential and complain when a support or ez mode champs like XinZhao MasterYi roflstomps you?

Not everyone on your team has to burn their cooldowns for the lulu just the one with the cc needs to while everyone else kills her quickly it's not rocket science.

ZILLAGULA1 votes

[deleted]

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

30 days as in i didnt play as much as i did at the first two months of this season, jesus you are so stupid.

You sure are letting that diamond icon go to your head.

Targon9 votes

I feel as though Lulu, Janna, etc... are borderline necessary when almost any champion can burst a squishy. What sucks though is that Assassins are meant to burst squishies so they're affected the hardest. Meanwhile there are a bunch of champions that have such high burst even when building 1-2 damage items and tank after wards, and without Locket, Redemption, and the CC these defensive supports offer - most ADCs would be completely useless.

Errastas4 votes

The problem is everyone wants to play an assassin or whatever champ they really like into every matchup instead of only into the favorable ones. Like if you pick an assassin when their team already has picks that will completely shut you down, that's on you.

Namira Bot7 votes

I remember a month ago I was reported for picking Lulu support.

now people are complaining.

lol

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