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Elder Drag is stupid. (comment high elo)

Total Eclipse··7 votes·3,292 views

Killing many dragons prior to getting that juicy elder drag buff increases your true dmg burn, right? But now let's consider the fact that KILLING DRAGON MAKES YOU DEAL LESS DMG TO SUBSEQUENT DRAGONS. That's right. If you have 2 ocean drakes (useless) and 1 air drake (not going to carry you), you deal 20% less dmg to the already invincible final elder drag. Dealing 15,000 damage through around 140-160 armor sounds realistic. Until you have 3-4 drags, making you WANT the buff, and giving an already tanky as f---- mob up to 28% bonus invulnerability. Look I had opponents aced with 30 sec on their timers and we had 4 high dps champs right. at. the elder drag. We brought it to about half hp before their entire team was on us. The way it's set up, there is literally no safely securing this objective- unless you have 0 dragon stacks. In which case getting it gives you an extremely watered down burn. Remember, you get a fat 100% bonus dmg on the burn PER stack of dragonslayer, meaning when you actually want it, you can't have it. WHEREAS BARON. Ace ---> free Baron ---> 3.5 mins of push. The stats on Baron's buffs are COMPLETELY comparable to a 0-1 stacked Elder Dragon buff, plus you get the invincible minions, and it last almost twice as long. Ever tried to push with Elder Drag when youre against an Anivia ?

If we want Elder Dragon to be something you fight over for a long time, you need to get credit for doing all the hard work. Elder Drag is TIME CONSUMING. You run a MASSIVE risk of letting the enemy jungler smite for last hit when you DEVOTE literally 45 seconds killing this thing. Either give dragonslayer stacks increased smite dmg--- so the team with more drags and the team that wants Elder Dragon's buff the worst can have an edge on actually getting it, or simply just give the team that does 50%+ of the dmg gets the buff. Or some combination of the two, like damaging Elder Drag charges your next smite against it. The way it's set up, it's unrealistic to say "Ok invest ALL this time, literally to the point where it is ALWAYS contestable, just to risk having it all stolen." When in most situations-- you can just rush to Baron and kill it for a free buff that lasts twice as long and is probably better every time that you actually have it. Cuz 0 stack Elder Drag buff (the only one you get) is underwhelming.

Not a perfect post but I want some Diamond opinions.

40 Comments

BakedLotion12 votes

What the fuck ocean drake is amazing lol... If you have 2-3 ocean drakes you will be so much better at sieging

Total Eclipse1 votes

Cough do you realize that ocean drake disables when you cs? Yeah it literally never activates.

VoidStaresBack9 votes

Incorrect. It is active while not in combat with champions. So CSing and other lane events won't disrupt it if you don't take champion damage.

Total Eclipse1 votes

In game it just says out-of-combat. Meaning same functionality as mobi's, no ? Still doesn't feel impactful to me but at least it actually heals SOMETIMES.

VoidStaresBack5 votes

Yeah the tooltip is misleading, it's better to just look at the particles that come up when under its effects. I can stand in the middle of a minion wave, taking minion aggro, and the particles stay around and I'm healing just as quickly, but a champion autoattack or turret shot and it shuts down. That's why it's great for sieging, because it keeps your mana up while you're slinging spells at the enemy team.

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

Cough do you realize that ocean drake disables when you cs? Yeah it literally never activates.

It only deactivates if you get hit by champions you dumbass. If you're a ranged champion, not getting hit for 5 seconds is incredibly easy. Ocean is only useless if you like playing melee champions Cmon man, even a goldie would know this basic info. Infernal Drake isn't as good as you think it is. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xhAA7rOJ-psa-infernal-drake-isnt-nearly-as-good-as-you-probably-think-it-is My personal ranking would be Mountain > Ocean > Infernal > Wind.

Total Eclipse1 votes

Who is going to spend 5 sec not hitting a tower, not taking poke, not lifestealing on minions, not clearing jg ---- the healing is active for 5% of the game, making it next to useless when you look at how minimal that MISSING HEALTH heal is. So basically it's good when you LITERALLY STAND AROUND DOING NOTHING. From 20% back up to, 40% in 20 sec? So that you can what, look at your enemies as they respawn with full hp? Grats you just spent all that time regenning and doing literally nothing cuz you cant enter combat or you wont heal.

SwiftKitten885 votes

{quoted}

Who is going to spend 5 sec not hitting a tower, not taking poke, not lifestealing on minions, not clearing jg ---- the healing is active for 5% of the game, making it next to useless when you look at how minimal that MISSING HEALTH heal is. So basically it's good when you LITERALLY STAND AROUND DOING NOTHING. From 20% back up to, 40% in 20 sec? So that you can what, look at your enemies as they respawn with full hp? Grats you just spent all that time regenning and doing literally nothing cuz you cant enter combat or you wont heal.

A SUPPORT, a jungler setting up a gank, a person who is losing lane and cant CS safely, a person who has shove their lane and is roaming to gank another lane. and person whos is about to be tower dove. and it not just the HP regen that makes it good... its the mana regen...

MohawkBird2 votes

[deleted]

Total Eclipse1 votes

People are saying you have to take champ or turret dmg. Not what in-game tool-tip says, but this would make a difference.

Irelia Bot4 votes

If you have 4 drags and are going for elder drag which will give you a far greater boost if you get it then the the enemy team with 1 it should be risky for the higher reward you have to gain from it.

My answer is completely subjective but in being the team with more to gain there is an argument in it also being more challenging to get and in turn a greater risk.

Basic attacks and spells burn the target for (45 × Elder Dragon Elder Dragons slain) (+ 45 per Elemental Dragon Mark) damage over 3 seconds and increases the strength of Elemental Dragon buffs by 50%. This stack only lasts 120 seconds or until death.

So if your team has 4 elemental dragons and this is the second elder dragon that is going to be 270 damage as a burn over 3 seconds, That is not a small chunk of damage to say the least.

That is a greater reward then the 2 elder dragons and 1 elemental of the enemy team in this case which gets 135 damage burn.

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

The problem is that it's not just slightly riskier, after getting several dragons you can often full ace the enemy team have 3 survivors including your adc and be unable to kill the elder before the whole enemy team respawns and gets there. Sure, it should be hard to kill so it can't just be burned down when the enemy team is alive, but it's really lame that it's so hard to take even after winning a teamfight.

The power of the elder buff is already tempered by the 2 min duration (with no enhanced recalls or minions) whereas baron is much faster to kill and lasts 3.5 mins. Elder also has a 10 min respawn timer to baron's 7 min so you can have 50% uptime on baron and only 20% on elder.

Total Eclipse1 votes

I like the general idea of: the better the buff is, the more challenging it is to acquire. But essentially a 50/50 toss up for something that could be game changing is way too heavy of a risk when you can just spend 45 sec getting towers, power farming, etc. Mind you the 4-dragon enhanced super Elder Dragon also deals 80% bonus dmg. Which would be great for if the enemy team tried to kill you while you are fighting the dragon. But instead it still kind of deals 0 dmg and it just doesnt die fast enough- then comes down to that smite fest.

The high potency dragon stays alive for too long and this DRASTICALLY reduces the chance of actually acquiring the buff.

You cant even rush for Elder Drag when their jg is dead. Because he will respawn and homeguard there before it dies. You would need to start the Elder Drag fight, as a 5v5, not get distracted enough to still hurt the drag, THEN somehow single out their jungle DURING the objective fight or else ace them with a dragon pounding you for 12% current health with 30% armor pen. Yeah it's not THAT much dps, but in a realistic scenario you're supposed to ace the enemy team under this nonstop damage. To "secure" the objective.

IA9hRfpP5q2 votes

Ill always let the oher team start the elder dragon. , Ill always let the other team start it. That thing is too tanky to be worth, takes too much effort.

LU Vanilla Rice 2 votes

Okay wait, I am slightly confused. Are you saying Elder is harder to kill with the greater amount of dragons your team has? Or are you saying that the dragons beforehand are useless? Or are you saying elder is not nearly as good as baron? Or are you trying to say all of these? I just want to know what to comment on and such.*

A little enlightenment would be helpful, please and thank you! Also, a tl;dr would be good too ;).

Total Eclipse1 votes

I said only ocean drake is useless. Drags before 35 min are worth taking otherwise. I do believe that Baron is 100x the better objective to take, with confidence in success in mind. The buffs are comparable. But the likelyhood of pulling off the Baron kill is so far greater that any question as to which buff is better in the first place becomes irrelevant. And Elder Drag IS harder to kill the more dragons you have already killed. 28% harder when the buff is at it's best.

LU Vanilla Rice 1 votes

Okay. As for the ocean drake being useless, it is generally regarded as the weakest dragon, but all dragons have their own strengths. For ocean drake, it allows sustain. During sieging or a turret defense, in between the waves coming, ocean drake can heal either team for a fair amount. An early ocean drake can also help junglers sustain, and even laners can benefit from it too.

Dragons before 35 are worth taking, and elder drakes are too. Personally, I prefer baron as well, but it's situational. 3 infernal drakes and a cloud would be very nice with an elder drake buff. 2 ocean drakes and a cloud are not nearly as good, but it is still worth taking if baron isn't up, or depending on your comp.

And yes, elder is harder to kill with the more buffs you have. But killing elder is generally done for 3 reasons: when you have a lot of buffs, when the enemy team has a lot of buffs and you want to deny them more, and when there is nothing else to take at the moment. So it should be more challenging to take it for those who have the buffs, and less challenging when people are trying to prevent the other team from getting them.

Elder can be very good, and in some circumstances it can be much better than baron. In general, however, baron is regarded as the better buff. Just, don't underestimate the power of drakes to influence a game! ;)

Total Eclipse1 votes

We're not discussing "the power of drakes to influence a game." Mountain, Infernal, and Cloud drake ALL have the ability to influence a game and its playstyle, especially when you get multiple in a row. I guess ocean drake is not atrocious after learning it DOES activate for cs. But this shit is not what Im worried about because aside from slight* balance issues, early drags are great for the game imo.

We're talking about how STUPIDLY risky a full stack Elder Drag buff is compared to an easy mode Baron snag, and also how a low stack Elder Drag is also not worth taking because it is weak and still takes a moderate-long amount of time.

Take reg drags. Forget the Elder Drag 9.5 times out of 10. Baron whenever possible. This is the obvious point of discussion, not whether simply 4-stack Elder Drag buff is strong. It's strong. But it's the single most unreliable choice in the game right now. Whereas Baron is a consistent game winner.

LU Vanilla Rice 1 votes

For an elder dragon, the more dragons you have, the riskier it is, given the extra damage and damage reduction. And this makes sense. High-risk, high-reward. And when you don't have a lot of dragon stacks, elder is a good option if you're thinking more for the late game. But baron is still a great tool for late game as well.

Elders are hard to take, but can influence more than baron. I personally believe baron is the better buff in terms of mid-late game, but elder dragon (even with little stacks) generally works better in the late game.

Im The Jayce God2 votes

Dude, all the dragons are good.

Inferno - Obviously the damage buff, wows Mountain - Do 223 true additional damage to the enemy towers (3 mountains) Air - Dont have to buy boot, extra item slot Ocean - Great for staying in battles longer

MagikarpIsBoss1 votes

You still have to buy boots. You only "don't" when you have 3 since it gives you free mobi passive. But it is only out of combat. You still need boots or in fights you will be super slow and you will loose out on the bonuses they give (like mpen, as, armor, etc).

Jabberwöcky2 votes

Only things i can think to do different on the Dragon are as follows.

The more dragon buffs you previously have, the more % damage of its armor you can ignore to do true damage, or to a certain amount. If you have 0 buffs previously, you do normal damage (this help stops turn overs in games, but rewards the team that is actually securing the dragons).

As for the Buffs it gives/rewards. I believe that it should boost whatever buffs you have, to its max amount. Like if you have one Air, one Ocean, Two fire. It gives you the third tier to all of those that you currently have (notice how i didnt say Earth? so it wouldnt give that). Then ontop of that, it gives you a Tower burn damage on attacks possibly.

Idk, im only mid gold, so i cant really speak for high elo, but i usually see as Elder Dragon and Baron, what i would like to call "the throw pits" as most of the time, people get caught there doing it, and throw their lead by dying to the enemy team while doing it, and they take the buff and push. So either way, either the dragon needs a significant buff to its buffs, or weaken it way down.

Seenan2 votes

Cloud Drakes start to get real useful if you have 2-3. The rotating and roaming speed is fucked up. Picture an Annie flanking you in less than 5 seconds with Cloud Drakes + Ludens, boots. 488 MS, iirc. I just did that, tbh. 2 CDrakes is another set of t2 boots, 3 is nearly a free mobi passive.

Total Eclipse1 votes

I agree with this analysis and even 1 is not "useless". The buff made it a viable and worth-taking objective, imo.

Only Play Darius2 votes

The solution is to only take Stone Dragons.

The RNG Dragon rework was half-baked and you just pointed out a major flaw that I hadn't thought of yet.

CaptnJakSparrow2 votes

I only get the elder dragon if I'm Master Yi with 2 stone dragons.

Otherwise there's no point. If you get the dragon you were already winning so hard that it didn't matter, or the team that was winning threw really hard trying to get the dragon and you win off of acing their stupid asses and getting the dragon + pushing with their 60 second res timers.

SwiftKitten881 votes

ocean drake is best drake of all... but i agree that elder is stupid

Total Eclipse1 votes

Nope. Infernal Drake is 100% no contest best drag. Cloud and Mountain are comparable and unique which I like. Ocean is trash.

SwiftKitten888 votes

{quoted}

Nope. Infernal Drake is 100% no contest best drag. Cloud and Mountain are comparable and unique which I like. Ocean is trash.

... ocean drake might be bad if your Vladimir who already has stupid health regen and is manaless.

but an early ocean drake can easily win you every lane

Total Eclipse1 votes

read other comment. ocean drake doesnt activate in lane.

VoidStaresBack5 votes

Wrong. The actual affect of the ability from 6.10:

SEA GOD’S CLAIM Restores 4/8/12% of your missing health and mana every 8 seconds if not damaged by a champion or tower in the last 5 seconds

Penns1 votes

was*

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

I think it's more of an objective you take given the opportunity when there isn't something better (Inhib or Baron). If your team doesn't feel it's worth it at the time, it's perfectly ok to ignore it until the time comes. Whether the enemy would want it is a factor too, so (for example) if they have 3 Infernal Drakes and Baron isn't up, they are probably going to want it and you can either contest it just to keep it away or push while they are taking it.

TL;DR - It's not about being good or bad, it's about opportunity.

Total Eclipse1 votes

"When the time comes."

But there is literally no point in time where the enemy does not have a chance to contest this objective. Why would a team with an advantadge spend their "tactical decision" on an unavoidable 50/50 tossup? When Baron is a 100% free objective availible 80% of the time Elder Drag is up? Elder dragon will virtually and realistically always come down to a smitefest. Yet one team has to choose to spend 45 entire seconds hacking away at it. Now imagine a world where choosing to start Elder Dragon means that the enemy team has to deny you killing it. They kill you while you attempt to kill Drag. It doesnt die for a long time but if it gets finished before they kill your whole team, you turn and burn. Way more fun. Healthier objective. Dealing a large % of Elder Drag health gives you an edge at getting the buff. Makes sense to me.

five oh tree 1 votes

4 high dps champs and it took you 30 seconds to bring it to half? what a fucking joke, not even worth reading the rest of the post.

Total Eclipse1 votes

I guarantee that all the Elder Drags you have taken were not 4-stacked with Ancient Grudge.

five oh tree 1 votes

I have. It doesn't take 4 high dps champs 30 seconds. Anyway, they had 30 seconds on their timers, AND THEN THE TRAVEL TIME TO DRAG PIT. so more like 45 seconds. Post is clearly full of shit.

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