Boards›Gameplay

Before you shitpost about 8.10 PBE Marksman Update

Total Eclipse·5/6/2018, 3:42:29 AM·42 votes·13,102 views
Consider the Following.

https://imgur.com/ptfvgF8 Before you downvote me to the League boards' Hell, please take the time to read the majority of the post. It's broken up pretty well so there isn't too much to cry about. I put a very large amount of time into it. I had to, because there is a lot to be realized before we can make any big claims about what these dozen or so changes to marksmen really mean.

https://imgur.com/PiuRgaE

TL;DR: The entire community is freaking out about the future of League instead of just playing in today's patch, and, moreover, while 8.10 PBE does have balance issues, fellow summoners, I beg you, simply take a step back and look at what PBE stands for. Public. Beta. Environment. Nobody ever said that these changes were the true. Final. 8.10 patch notes. The rest of the long story told short is that Riot is on the right track.

https://imgur.com/PiuRgaE

That track or path is for ADCs to be more fun to play, while being slightly less of a driving force in the game. What we are seeing is buffs to the ADC ability to 1v1 solo laners and/or to have longer or slower paced teamfights. This comes via buffs to lifesteal items item 3153 , item 3072, and bruiser-style items item 3156 , item 3026, while reducing the overall damage impact in teamfights mainly via gold efficiency nerfs to item 3087 , item 3094 , item 3046 , item 3085 , and nerfs to the biggest tank killer items item 3036 , item 3033 , item 3035. We also have some sweet new skill expression items item 3139 ( Placeholder icon for Stormrazor) and a totally reworked item 3508 Essence Reaver to look at in a minute, aimed to make the role less braindead for the enemy, and, more fun to play as. Woot. https://imgur.com/uRlxP7s Imagine a lategame faceoff between a Maokai and a less mobile ADC like Twitch. Expect a fight like this to be more of a brawl with Twitch having at least one defensively oriented AD item, and not having the Giant Slayeritem 3034-infused Last Whisperitem 3036 at his disposal. The fight would be less one sided in either direction. The extremely low/fast kill times people love to complain about are going up/getting slower as lifesteal/bruiser ADC builds gain power. Expect teamfights to last noticeably longer once this marksmen update hits.

https://imgur.com/DUlX084

In case you already read: 135165612343ZJ is a summoner who made a great post to the Gameplay boards. A lot of people have already read most of it, so I'm going to reference it a couple of times. He made wonderful arguments, but I'm looking at the matter from a slightly different angle. Which is that these changes are highly subject to change. This is what people are so grossly overlooking. We should focus on the good changes that we want kept, get hyped for that, and have faith that Riot has the brains to not fully commit to these currently-under-testing changes.

https://imgur.com/iDmJxEM

The bad. Let's get the bad out of the way. Front page post's Argument 3: On late-game ADC 3-4shotting "squishy" (less than 100 armoritem 1029) targets: Instead about freaking out about this new jacked up ADC BPS, simply acknowledge that item 3031 is currently very overtuned on PBE without freaking out about it like that version of IE is coming to the rift. Because I will tell you right now, and you can come back and cuss me out when 8.10 hits if I'm wrong, that version of IE will not make it to the live patch cycles. Again, this is a testing environment. The calculations done on the front page completely revolve around item 3031 being a "mentally handicappededly" (lol) broken op item. The calculations are accurate and indicate an issue, but save the shitposting for when the item actually hits live servers, IF it ever does.

https://imgur.com/oO22vdK

The good. Now back to the good part. SUPER COOL new shit marksmen get to work with: item 3139 Stormrazoritem 3139 -- This will be used on a number of champs, but to me it stands out as a bit of a bruiser item if built early because it gives fewer raw fighting stats than current ADC itemization, but gives a bunch of juicy movement speed for going the distance. Just imagine using this on Gravessummoner 11 Graves jungle and blitzkrieging the enemy top lanerDariussummoner 12 . You charge in, get your proc, and as you fly past him you also shred and cut him down with your black cleaver and its stacking damageitem 3071 . It also functions as a 4th or 5th item for conventional ADCs, because by then you're getting regular crits to proc it more often. Very comparable to how Jhin 's movespeed passive applies both to his 4th shot, and regular crits. And then there's the new item 3508 Essence Reaver. item 3508 -- Holy crap this item sounds absolutely insane, but it's probably overtuned as hell just like item 3031 . Just imagine a challenger player running this on Lucian. Its activation is tied to your ulti, but when it's up, you're going to have virtually no cooldowns as you weave autos. This item WILL have you slinging spells, like the real AD caster that some players (maybe even you) want to be. Could be amazing on AP/hybrid Varus for 8 seconds of massive DPS, hey maybe even Draven too, for nutty E uptime/spamming. Unless, of course, he opts for something with more raw damage. Options. Stat stick crit build, or this new Essence Flare item for the play-making potential. Good job Riot on this item design.

https://imgur.com/LCpQ8fE

The good, continued. Front page post Argument 1: On bot lane's sustain: Does anybody else remember in, roughly, season 6 or so, when every trade won in lane was seen as and felt like success? Talking about mostly all lanes. Because I do, and I clearly remember a LOT more skill expressive solo kills. Back then we didn't have things like rejuve biscuits, corrupting potion, a super strong dorans shield, scalar lifesteal doran's blade, fleet footwork/warlords bloodlust, second wind... The damage you dealt used to stick. And we're getting back to that with these changes. A little bit. We've got ADC regen nerfs across the board, and the most abused keystone for non-interactive levels of sustain and safety, Fleet Footwork (FF), is on it's way off the throne. Again, good job Riot.

https://imgur.com/BB3JRmB

Argument 2 of the front page post: on ADC's 2-item powerspike: I'm going to skip this one because like OP said, I see a lot more of the 3-item powerspike in today's meta. And the issues of the 3-item powerspike have already been discussed, simply sit tight for the nerf for the new item, item 3031 Way of the Wanderer 3.0 item 3070Yasuo

https://imgur.com/DUlX084

If you read this far, then good job. My goal is for people will give a little praise to the balance team stepping up to make massive, ballsy, skill expression oriented changes like this to shake up the playing grounds. Feel free to discuss and share opinions below, just be respectful and keep the toxicity to a minimum please. :)

See you on the Rift, summoners.

-Rob

https://imgur.com/GtYayUJ

62 Comments

KoKoboto5/6/2018, 3:53:30 AM38 votes

Players being this skeptical should be warranted considering the fact they went through with those Poppy nerfs :T

TS Media5/6/2018, 5:38:20 AM13 votes

90% of things that make it on the PBE go through. There's almost relatively no change once a decision has been made on PBE. People need to stop using PBE as an excuse now. The only time riot readjusts anything on PBE, is when there's a huge outcry against it.

DragonIgnis5/6/2018, 6:04:06 AM10 votes

The ADC changes aren't on Patch 8.10. They're on Patch 8.11.

What on PBE is for 8.10 versus 8.11

Been seeing some uncertainty as to which changes currently on PBE are potentially in 8.10 versus which are aiming for 8.11. Quick rundown below as a result for anyone interested:

8.10:

  • Champion changes with the exception of marksmen base stat changes
  • Scuttle change, Runic Echo change, Talisman change
  • Bounty change
  • Plus likely some more champion adjustments that will come later in the cycle

8.11:

  • AD item changes
  • Marksmen base stat changes
  • Hail of Blades (new Domination keystone)
  • Plus some other stuff that won't hit PBE until the 8.11 PBE cycle

-Meddler's QGTs 5/4/18

Rito has another set of PBE iterations for their changes. Hopefully, they improve on their changes and fix the flaws that have been pointed out.

hhaavviikk5/6/2018, 6:07:23 AM7 votes

it's difficult to see them as up for change considering riot's clear favoritism over the years for the ADC class so I can't help but dislike and get angry over the changes

Tahminatrix 5/6/2018, 4:15:01 AM7 votes

My only problem is item 3508 combined with item 3071 and item 3036 With the higher crit rate in place, those 3 items can easily fit into an adc build and the problem I have with that is ad casters are already annoying as hell for tanks because there are no items to counter it. Sure adcs still got auto...but more damage from abilities is more damage that tanks have no way of negating...

item 3047 item 3143 both will help with the autos..but what do you build against the spammable armor shredding abilities...lol armor?

Actually

item 3110 item 3082 might stop the ability spam but considering it is reduction based on remaining cooldown ...having more attackspeed over a certain threshold wont help very much anyway and they will still be spamming abilities less than 20% slower. Which is still great except....

item 3110 doesn't have any hp nor does it have a high enough range...so youre basically asking to be shredded...maybe changes to this item could fix everything...

Maybe have frozen heart also multiply your armor by a small %, thornmail and Rammus wont be able to synergize with it without sacrificing tons of damage..as slow

This way only tanks that are trying to help their team will build it, and it makes another option as opposed to item 3193 item 3190 as those items don't give hp either. so its a choice between defending against burst or defending against autos.

T4underbolt5/6/2018, 12:54:19 PM6 votes

Do you know why your optimizm wont end well? Because riot already proved many times they can bring even the most broken and dumb sht from PBE to live even if million posts of feedback has been warning about it being broken. Additionally the current numbers shows that ADCs will deal even more dmg than now and because with same build they will achieve 100% crit that means they can build items that they were usually skipping e.g. lifesteal items. We have fleet footwork and supports that shields and heals so there was no reason to buy lifesteal. And now as there is no need to buy 4 items to get 100% crit and a lot of dmg at the same time they will additionally build lifesteal. So not only they will still have crits and massive sustain, but also additional sustain from items and true dmg and consistency while the build only costs 700 gold more. This is ridiculous.

I called it before we saw the changes that riot will only perform power shift that will look like nerfs but in reality it will be buffs just to shut people up. And here we are they are doing it and from 3 years of experience with GC and Meddler as lead designers im 100% sure the changes will be shipped like they are now on PBE with at best slight changes that dont really influence anything. Additionally shield changes that were supposed to be shipped to 8.6 patch has been moved once and now again after 8.11. Im telling you already riot doesnt intend to fix shields at all. They will keep them like this to ensure marksman and bot lane is the only lane worth caring for and the only strategy is be a slave to bot lane, get them ahead or lose. tanks will keep being priority pick and will be able to win/survive lane without doing anything at all so they can be always relevant and protect adcs even if the player behind it is bad. Just to again ensure adcs are untouchable.

Your post would be legit if riot actually listened to pbe feedback and would be open to actually make all lanes having impact. Unfortunately ranged champions and especially bot lane is being glorified and favourised. They dont WANT to change it. So trying to stay positive and see what happens will only lead to disappoitment. Even all that talk about mages being able to be picked bot. Its bullsht. They wanted kennen bot as a mage, but they tried to force him into standard adc build. What people had in mind was playing AP builds in bot not being forced to play crit or on hit build on mage. And this is what riot had in mind. Which means they know they wont nerf adc items. More. The items will be so strong that any champ will be able to build AD/AS and thats what they call brining mages to bot lane. ITs not ziggs like bot lane. Its troll crit ahri like mage bot lane.

woodvsmurph5/6/2018, 6:25:54 PM5 votes

Guys, we're making galio scale insanely off ap... nobody freak out.

community - this hasn't hit live yet, but I guarantee it's gonna be broken and stupid op

hits live...

Ok guys, we might have gone a bit overboard so we're toning down the ap scaling on galio.

...

Guys, we're buffing ardent censer to reinforce pro players not just spamming tank supports; it's going to be okay, even though we know it's already pretty strong in solo queue w/o the buffs. We want an exciting world's.

community - pls no; ardent is already strong and adc's are quickly becoming the only carry; kog'maw doesn't even have to kite to 1v5 - just get a janna shield and ult and he's invincible.

community - it's been over a month - pls nerf ardent

community - for real, can we pls nerf ardent and enchanter supports already

...

Ok guys, ardent may have been a LITTLE bit overtuned, so we're nerfing it and making a ton of changes to everything with runes reforged. It's gonna be great and increase diversity across the board.

...

We're making some updates to help udyr because we don't see him enough in high level play. Just some minor buffs to his damage and whatnot.

community - um riot, that's gonna be broken; could you maybe just give him a better gapcloser besides running really fast? That's what he needs - just like garen and voli.

No. We're going with our buffs.

community - uhhh, did that triforce into full tank udyr just kill a full hp maokai in 4 q's? That seems a TINY bit OVERbalanced. But I guess it's ok in Rito's eyes, because udyr can be kited - with his 500 movespeed he gets every 2 sec by popping bear stance lol. Real balanced here.

So, uhhh, we noticed udyr's winrate went up more than expected and are toning him down just a bit.

community - winrate up more than expected? lol. Toning him down JUST a bit? lol

We're making some updates to adc's...

community - so... nobody panic right?...

Devilreaper XIII5/6/2018, 8:29:04 AM5 votes

what are you talking about??? riot is ALWAYS off track [zombie-brand-facepalm] i bet we will see buffs only and no nerfs or very insignificant little nerfs like usual.

RocketRelm5/6/2018, 9:00:20 AM5 votes

First off, I commend the effort in this post. And I agree with a lot of the good points of the changes. For productive discussion the rest of this post may some slightly negative, so taking the time here to say I appreciate the rational discussion format.

That said, I think I can shine some light on the reason people are upset. It's not even strictly about "will they get it right eventually", although that is a part of it. For the most part, riot tends to go really aggressive on nerfs and only rarely will they take out the feather duster and gently pap things to make sure they stay perfectly 100% viable after the changes. For ADCs, the opposite seems to hold true.

What would be the worst we'd have if IE was released in an undertuned state? ADCs would be somewhat icky to play for a patch? They'd still be mandatory and centerpieces in every game. They'd just pick up other, noncrit scaling builds? Unlikely unless those builds were individually OP (and they'd have to be hit anyway if they were). ADCs would delay it to a third or fourth item, when they have another source of AD to make the crit "really" multiply damage? Good, that's the stage of the game where the "AD Deathcap" belongs anyway.

On a personal note, I do trust riot to get IE right eventually. I do not trust riot to get IE tuned before it hits live, and if it does, this massive surge asking them to look at it will likely be the "reason" it does. "Don't complain, we fixed IE, because you complained." isn't the best reason not to be upset. Often times Riot uses the excuse "PBE isn't for balance, it's for bugs", and of the balance issues that slip through the cracks onto live, the biggest group tends to be niche combo items with a single champion, but directly "after" that is the catchall "things that make ADC stronger".

Thanks for your time, if you actually read all of this.

Yordle Xayah5/6/2018, 6:32:15 AM5 votes

TL;DR: The entire community is freaking out about the future of League

Not really. After years of balance under Meddler I just roll with whatever thing they make. I don't particularly get the feel that they know what they're doing but I don't know what I'd do myself (I'd probably destroy the game) and my only real concern is Trist drops to like 45% after the changes but I have Zero way of knowing if this will happen, and even if it does, there isn't much I can do about it.

Me at this point with League Balance: [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

AetherArising5/6/2018, 7:10:50 AM5 votes

I appreciate the well thought-out thread, you did your research my dude, but skepticism isn't wholly unwarranted considering the favoritism towards ADCs for the past several years. If riot does tune IE and ER well (and stormrazor is a biiiiit op right now, yknow, just a tadddd. I do think that'll get tuned properly though since its a new item and not a pre-existing rework) then i'll be content with the upcoming changes,

but i gotta be super skeptical considering that almost every change as of late has been "Oh nah don't worry we'll fix it by pre-... i mean mid-.... uh, NEXT season" kind of change.

Good post, 9/10, but i wouldn't trust riot to know what they're doing so blindly, personally.

Nalisai5/6/2018, 7:14:55 PM4 votes

Stormrazor + Teemo, Twitch, or any stealth jungler is going to be insane. Maybe even Pantheon after ult. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Tamera5/6/2018, 4:17:36 AM4 votes

(づ◔ ͜ʖ◔)づ

NineTailedMystic5/6/2018, 7:47:49 AM4 votes

What we are seeing is buffs to the ADC ability to 1v1 solo laners

Which shouldn't happen easily? Why should they be allowed to 1v1 someone 1-3 levels higher than them?

My Waifu Vanilla5/6/2018, 6:04:01 AM4 votes

ADC changes are not shipping until 8.11. Even more reason for these kneejerk reactions to stop flooding the boards. 3 weeks to change things so stop flooding the entire front page with 12 posts saying the same thing. Confine it to one so more opinions can see the light of day.

jocomotion5/6/2018, 3:43:28 AM3 votes

Wow, your post is Waaaay fancier than mine: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/HdpUcHsw-all-of-the-adc-changes-and-what-they-mean

ZackTheWaffleMan5/6/2018, 5:39:06 AM3 votes

Upvoted for old, good Bill Nye.

Spacesuit Spiff5/6/2018, 1:02:59 PM2 votes

Good use of dividers.

If your whole point is that the PBE stuff is subject to change, what's the problem with us discussing the current version? Doing so just increases the chance riot actually fixes it. Sure you could tone police but a) extreme stances can actually help establish the starting assumptions of the conversation, and b) threads you'd approve of on this topic probably wouldn't get upvoted as much.

PowerSlave9935/6/2018, 3:31:40 PM2 votes

Not only that ADC will be stronger but everyone will abuse those items.

Solari Fortune5/6/2018, 3:44:36 PM2 votes

I just would like to note that while your post is good

All the Marksmen stuff is happening in 8.11 not 8.10 it is just going to go through 2 cycles of PBE

BestPudgeNA5/6/2018, 4:47:58 PM2 votes

{quoted}

TL;DR: The entire community is freaking out about the future of League instead of just playing in today's patch, and, moreover, while 8.10 PBE does have balance issues, fellow summoners, I beg you, simply take a step back and look at what PBE stands for. Public. Beta. Environment. Nobody ever said that these changes were the true. Final. 8.10 patch notes. The rest of the long story told short is that Riot is on the right track.

The problem with "taking a step back" is these aren't even a good starting point. These changes are just straight up net positives for most Marksman and it shouldn't need testing just High school level math to understand it. Riot has also has a long history of shipping changes that are even more broken then these, Galio Q one shots in 7.21 hello? On top of which they did about 4 sets of changes to other changes on PBE and didn't even touch the ADC ones other then Stormrazor(which was slightly buffed for ADCs).

That track or path is for ADCs to be more fun to play, while being slightly less of a driving force in the game. What we are seeing is buffs to the ADC ability to 1v1 solo laners and/or to have longer or slower paced teamfights.

They don't need to make ADCs more fun to play they need to make the more balanced. Playing against ADCs that can 1 v 1 solo laners and Junglers is nonsense the team fight DPS gods shouldn't be remotely competitive in a 1 v 1 for champs that are supposed to dominate 1 v 1s.

Tik1155/6/2018, 5:13:41 PM2 votes

I know I shouldn't retort to this arguably well written thread but I will do so to point out one thing with your mentioning of "its overtuned on PBE"

Riot has had a VERY poor track record of having overtuned and absurdly powerful things go through the PBE and come out in just a bad state, See: Irelia rework, Zoe, Kalista, Janna Buffs, Galio Buffs just to name a few.

Saying "it is overtuned it'll be changed!" Is no longer reassurance, it is a hope that what you said DOES happen.

2Charmnot2Charm5/6/2018, 2:13:46 PM2 votes

that version of IE will not make it to the live patch cycles. Again, this is a testing environment.

You aren't wrong about pbe being a testing environment, however what riot mainly cares about when it concerns pbe is BUGS.

They won't balance/tune things too much till after it hits live since the pbe playerbase is small (Only one pbe server and it's in NA, so enjoy the lag people from anywhere outside of NA) and the general skill level of said players is not good enough for accurate testing.

LordGeovanni5/7/2018, 6:17:21 AM1 votes

Adcs dont need to be better at fighting solo laners they need to not dominate while folding to their supposed weakness that they just kite out with superior movement speed with no gimicky condition like item 3044 item 3742 or item 2053. most of the time and most of them either have built in mobility self peel or both

Spankyhams5/6/2018, 2:40:05 PM1 votes

What irks me the most is that people who build a zeal item but don't build IE and vice versa get Nerfed pretty handily(Esp those who build IE without crit. Because the new IE w/o crit is like 66% gold effect or something dumb like that) and the justification for that is because with the double crit passive it makes crit build 90+% gold efficient. item 3046 + item 3031 = 60% crit-chance / 6,500/ 6,172.5(Worth of stats) / 94% efficient w/o passives item 3046 + item 3094 + item 3031 = 120% Crit Chance/ 9,300 / 8,720(Worth of Stats) / 93% efficient w/o passives I honestly wish that crit Carries had more options in terms of itemization because you nerfed wake up time but also their build path. Because either have no damage or no survivability(Which in theory is a great idea.) BUT what they are missing is lane bullyies who already have a good early game and a decent mid game get super buffed because their kits already have enough damage to mitigate the mid-game dip that crit carries are going to have. I think crit carries are going to become awful and anyone with a steroid(Sans Xayah) is going to build on-hit. Just because it takes so long to ramp your damage. Games already don't last that long to begin with so it will be a miracle if you can get to 4-5 items and come online. (Sorry for bad grammar I got up like 30 mins ago) Tl:Dr : Good Ideas, Poor execution