When will riot adress the toxicity of multi form champions?

Knight SoIaire ··4 votes·540 views

i mean its nothing new that all of those guys are eating reworks or nerfs one after another and either they become something toxic ot the max or barely usefull

owerall the main problem with them is not strictly related to the toxic skills they usualy abuse because we dont realy lack that we have guys like darius who controll the entire lane with low cooldown q which has good damage and range which proves to be a similar level of toxicity that nidaele reaches when she blindly spams spears mid to late game but the main thing that keeps a champion like darius in check is the fact that he has weaknesses all around, and you have room to live in. in my opinion and i think that its a preety popular opinion, the problem lies in the sheer amount of tools those champions have that allow them to become a lee sin class generalist who unlike lee sin doesnt sacrifice that damage for being all round usefull

i mean look at elise (also she is coming back btw) -has % hp damage -is a mage -has cc -has sustain -has vision tool (the homing spider) -has mobility -has untargetability -has atack speed steroid -has movement speed steroid -has a homing skillshot that is actualy preety inteligent and easy to make plays with -has range -has meele empowered atacks

compare it to any champion who isnt a generalist, lets say yi -has a gapcloser with aoe dmg -has a heal -has a damage reduciton -has autoatack empowering passive -has a steroid to atack speed -has a steroid to movement speed -has ad steroid -has true damage -has resets -and has little untargetability

lists are comparable but elise wins at the amount of sheer tools/traits and covers loads of diverse roles with her skillset while master yi is put only into one direction being an offensive autoatacker with one defensive tool

so this puts riot to the point where gutting them seems fair because they are insane when given some reasonable numbers, since they cover loads of roles and work in loads of situations

but that does prove to make them useless nida was a similar example when right after the rework ap nidaele was branded trash becuase her spears werent rewarding and she couldnt keep the assasin playstyle up with that unreliability, so she became ad bruiser top which was toxic to the max as no toplaner could keep up with her and she was splitpushing while trap field watched ower her back, riot nerfed her ad and buffed something else (mainly tweaked her hunt) and got her to pre rework state again where she abuses her spears and pounce

so i would like to come to the conclusion that i reached once i started thinking about why i dont like those champions their main trait is the fact that they have 2 smaller but diferent skillsets that allow them to cover more playstyles but their main problem is that those playstyles mix and usualy make something insanely toxic as they usualy can have 100% acces to both of their forms at the same time, meaning an empowered version of lee sin class generalist

my conclusion is that multi form champions should have their capability to change forms reduced by increasing their cooldown, this way you deny their capability to abuse toxic playstyles, they will still exist but they wont be 100% accesible and will put them on downtimes where they are tied to one form for a longer time

ofc that will require some ballancing after but i think its better

5 Comments

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Generalist kit design is the problem. Not so much modal champions. Rek'Sai is a potential jungle health problem because versatility, but it's not due to her modal nature. Her two modes provide interesting gameplay and totally work in the game design.

Elise is a problem because she's good at too many things. Her problem is more that she's a fighter/mage hybrid than it is that she has 6 buttons. Her kit needs weaknesses in a serious way; not having them also means she's not allowed to have strengths. Basically, Elise is a problem in the same way that Diana is a problem; League really struggles to make hybrids that have both interesting play patterns and good counterplay options for the opponent.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

but it's not due to her modal nature. Her two modes provide interesting gameplay and totally work in the game design.

i agree with that one rek sais second form is strictly tied to utility/cc while her ground form is the damage

the same case is with gnar, someone in this thread said "The thing with Gnar is that his alt form is more of an Upgrade than a secondary form with different abilities."

but the problem arises when a champions with 2 forms is basicaly 2 champions without an ult merged together if they live separately i dont realy find it problematic but when both of them can be in action at the same time we get realy owerloaded generalist

Elise is a problem in the same way that Diana is a problem; League really struggles to make hybrids that have both interesting play patterns and good counterplay options for the opponent.

thats exactly the case

and i think that those " counterplay options for the opponent" should lie in the fact that each of their forms has less skills than a full champion if we limit their capability to switch forms the gaps in their separate skillsets become exploitable for the enemy and allow interaction that fawours them, yet does not realy limit the options for the form switcher

if you force nidaele to run and she cant get to human form fast she is useless since this is a form for cleanup or follow up on her spear if you force jayce into hammer stance and he cant get to cannon fast he is again defensless since this is a cleanup form on the other hand elise cant kill anyone in human form, on the other hand spider form doesnt have enough damage to kill someone with high hp so she wont survive a quick duell, and her rappel cant always allow her to escape as it is very conditional

ofc this sole change wont make everything good, but it will be possible for riot to actualy make those guys healthy

straight4free1 votes

Cooldowns for multi-form champions should only count down while in the form they can be casted in.

Instantly allows them to be balanced.

Instead of, using Elise as an example, E-W-Q - To Spider Form - Q - W, and then whenever she wants being able to go back and use at least W and Q again, she has to actually wait for cooldowns other than her E.

The E can have its CD reduced to make it not imbalanced, and Elise can be buffed elsewhere to not make her useless.

Erockandroll1 votes

I have so many answers for this. Mostly because Duel form champions are too broad and they have very different conditions that they are used in. (and honestly not all duel form champions are Generalists.) the only common notation I noticed is that a duel form champ will have a good Early game because they have access to more abilities.

Jayce : probably the most Iconic Duel form champ. The problem Riot had was one Form (noticeably his cannon form) became favored and riot balanced mostly around it's use. The two forms are disjoint.

Nidalee : She solves some of the Disjointness in her Duel form by allowing one form to interact with the other. (her on the hunt) I honestly feel like her current kit is good and can be worked with. Her numbers may be a bit strong, but her kit is fine.

Gnar : The thing with Gnar is that his alt form is more of an Upgrade than a secondary form with different abilities. His Mega form is the Team fighting tank, who locks up the enemy team. And his mini form can't do anything because he's building tank. He can only kite the enemy with his low AD build while waiting for his mega form to be ready.

Personally I thought he would be better as a fighter, but he got balanced as a tank. In fact I recall from the old champion concept forums that you should not use Rage on a tank. Because the tank needs to be at his strongest point going into the fight, rather than part way though.

Elise : not quite sure about her, and how her kit works.

The only other thing I notice about duel form champs is that they are always caster Oriented. And based on what their spells do. This also gives them good burst going from one form to another, and unloading all your spells. with the exception of Gnar, you could balance them around their mana costs. Something that constantly limits Jayce.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

your points are good while champions like gnar and rek sai are a diferent story (both of them are insanely unique, and as you noticed with gnar their second forms have diferent purpose than simply switching the playstyle)

normal duo form champions like jayce nidaele and elise are insanely similar

each of their forms is made for diferent playstyle, usualy one is an opening/poke form while the second is for cleanup/finishing enemies off

the problem that i find to make them toxic is the fact that they get acces to both forms basicaly at the same time time so they dont rely on switching their kit to fit the situation better, but instead use the exact skills that they need at the specific second always getting the most suitable tool for the situation

for instance jayce normaly sits in cannon form, his intended playstyle is o poke with cannon and go in, so the best counterstrategy is to get on him when he is squishy and ranged and force him to change the form into the one that fawours you but all that will happen is that he will change the form use e and continue the artilery barrage before you even manage to back off

nidaele ? pokes as human and goes only when target is poked, but every time you come close to her she pounces twice and is back in human form again not to mention that spear is already halfway to your face

elise? one form is a mage specializing in poke/utility engaging the fight, second form is for all inns and assasinating, best counterplay is to get heat on her before she pokes you down, but all that will happen is that she will use rappel, fall down change to human stun you and run away with spider form already ready to finish you off

owerall those chanpions are made realy well, their tools are usualy made in a way that forces them to play in a wery specific way and both of thir forms have advantages and disadvantages that are usualy opposite, so when they get to use both forms basicaly at the same time they have barely any weaknesses

i feel that thats the main problems there are champions who outrange nidaele, but nobody complains because they cant run away as good as nidaele so enemies kill them oncethey get them there are champions who poke better than jayce, but they cant just disengage so good so again they die once caught

while elise isnt so abusable owerall since her kit is short ranged and she isnt so safe bus there are champions who outperform her separate forms but they just dont compete that follow up or utility

in the end most frustrating is the lack of downtime those champions have jayce and nida poke you 24/7 and disengage every fight without stopping to poke you elise does everything at the same time being both an utility mage and an assasin

im jsut stating my opinion that their ballance is broken as far as they can effectively sit in both forms at once

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