Everyone complains about CertainlyT but personally, I feel that Riot Jag is more problematic.

ModCaptainMårvelous··86 votes·23,678 views

Let me make this clear: This isn't a "FIRE RIOT JAG" or "REMOVE HIM FROM DESIGN" thread. However, I do feel that Jag should take a double-look at his designs and maybe reapproach how he handles making/designing a new champion, because there are some pretty rough problems that are consistently coming out with his champs.

For those who don't know, Jag is relatively new. He's currently responsible for three champions:

Camille Kaisa Aatrox (Rework)

Aatrox I won't go too much into, mostly because he was a rework and there will always be that group of Aatrox players who refuse to ever acknowledge that new Aatrox exists. However, pretty consistent problems appear on both Camille and Kai'sa that echo each other.

  • Both have a huge variety of tools.

Camille has diving/mobility, lockdown, auto-resets/empowered autos for splitpushing, ranged poke with her W, decent defensive tools and a wide variety of CC in a slow, a knock-up and a grounded/anti-mobility mechanic. Kai'sa has poke, % damage, mobility in both ms and actual mobility, mixed damage, AoE clear and defensive tools like stealth and shielding.

These characters have wide, jack-of-all-trade boxes that they can use in a variety of fights. It also means that they often have had situations where they excel at one thing over other champs: Camille probably has one of the strongest lockdown tools in the game. Kaisa's kit gives her an ok early...yet also a strong late.

  • Both have required heavy balance tuning.

Camille, on release, was so good she was played in 4/5 roles (Top, Mid, Jungle and even a support game in the NA LCS). She required having every ability she has nerfed until she was remotely ok in both pro and pub play. It doesn't help that despite what people say, Camille is quite pick-up-and-play. She's very simple to get a grasp on even if her skill ceiling is high.

Kai'sa has been a dominant pick since release and doesn't really have a HARD counter to go to that we've seen yet in pro play. She's still needing quite some balance tuning and it seems that even if she's not good in pub play, she's quite strong in pro play. With some many things to tune, Kai'sa has a ton of levers that the balance team has to pull to keep her sedated.

  • Both feel like improvements on old champs.

Camille and Kai'sa feel like what would happen if you showed me Vi/Vayne and told me "Make a better version of these champs". While not completely true, both have overshadowed their counterparts. Hell, it has gotten so bad with Vi that she's one of the two (I forget the other one) champions who has seen Zero competitive picks across all regions. Zero. NOBODY values her.

Vayne has it a bit better but because Kai'sa is safer in lane and has a roughly equal late game, with perhaps Vayne getting an edge, she doesn't see half the play she used to. It also doesn't help that the only tool Vayne has over Kai'sa is self-peel, which is often less useful in a fight than more consistent mobility and dodging.

###If Jag is reading this

Hey dude.

I get it. Designing champs is hard. Plus, I know that these are your first two champs so there are likely to be roadblocks that make it harder. I don't want you fired and I don't want you to come off as me saying you're an idiot. What I do hope, however, is that you'll improve your designs as time goes on and that your next champ can avoid being the problematic champ these two have.

I sincerely hope that your designs will get better and that you can still keep the "fun-to-play" energy that Kai'sa/Camille have without necessarily have to so heavily overwrite other champs or putting so many tools in their kits. You have all the potential in the world, I just hope you can capitalize on it.

#TL;DR

CT champions are all weird and varied but also have unique problems. Jag's champions seem to have consistent problems and ones that are more subtle and thus, last longer. Through a combination of adaptability, varied skills and being psuedo-improved versions of older champions, Jag's champions seem to have consistent problems that I hope get ironed out as he designs more champs.

156 Comments

MorganFreemanBot44 votes

Camille is busted basically however you slice it, and is just Vi + 1 (or + 5). Her release state was also fucking abominable, being given every tool in the book.

Aatrox and Kaisa, on the flip side, I don't feel are his fault.

First and foremost, let us remember that both of them received massive buffs within the first few days of their release.

Kaisa received same-patch hot fix buffs. On the very next patch, every single ability (+ her passive) received substantial buffs. So in the span of one hotfix + one patch she received buffs to every ability (multiple buffs to her Q), increased attack range, and increased AD scaling.

Aatrox as well, within days of his release, received hotfix buffs to 3 out of 4 abilities + his base health. He then immediately received more hot fix buffs to his Q.

It's worth noting that in both cases (Aatrox and Kaisa), 'buff to an ability' is a slightly term. I'm not talking like +5 damage per level to each ability; these buffs were in ALL cases a combination of things. More like +5 damage, -2 second CD, +10% scaling all rolled in for each ability. They were serious changes which IMMENSELY increased the power of EVERYTHING they touched.

This next part is going to rub a lot of Boards the wrong way, but that's fine given most of Boards is braindead monkeys who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

At a kit level, Kaisa and Aatrox both take a substantial amount of skill to play effectively.

For example I've recently been playing some Aatrox jungle. I consider myself a competent jungler, but my first 10-15 games were total ass. I got dumpstered, and even when I got lucky and flailed my way to getting ahead through little skill of my own.. I still got curbstomped. I'd still call myself far from good, but I've got the worst of the learning curve (imo) under my belt and it shows

Aatrox and Kaisa dumpster tier winrates upon release because, put simply, the champions are hard. They do a lot more than right click, mindlessly mash Q, and win... Which is all you need to be average at a LOT of champions in League.

That's fine. If both champs had received only minor buffs (or at least not IMMENSE hotfix buffs), they'd probably still be strong right now because people have gotten time to play them and get used to them.

The problem is.. that didn't happen.

Aatrox received immense buffs (3 abilities + base health) within TWENTY FOUR HOURS of going live. Kaisa received an entire kit buff (all that wasn't touched was base health, regen, & base attack speed) within THREE DAYS of going live.

As a result they went from just 'high skill' to 'high skill and massively over-tuned'. This makes them must picks not just because better players can make their kits work, but because those kits are too strong when they CAN be forced to work.

At a baseline, this issue represents a fundamental problem with League vs Dota.

Riot balances for all levels of play to some degree. Dota does not.

Dota has a vibrant pro scene because champions are exclusively balanced for that high end. This means there are heroes which have 60% winrates in low elo and others with 40%, but both are balanced at the pro scene.

Riot has recently been trying to push its design into hyper-drive. They want to move away from simplistic Garen & Jinx designs (straight forward & low skill requirement), and shift into champions which have huge learning curves and are almost impossible to master. This is a problem which is only going to get worse as that happens.

HaIlMonitor19 votes

Right now I feel like the only real issue is Kaisa is WAY too Hybrid. By being able to unlock all of her bonus spells with just two a few items buys seems oppressive. Also when you can build everything except for like 3 items (melee only) and do your job it makes it impossible to really deal with her.

Linna Excel2 votes

Do you think her bonuses should be bigger, but require more items invested in them such that she can't get all 3?

Imperial Pandaa3 votes

Would a scaling cost perhaps work? Like after upgrading on ability with items, you need more of the next stat to upgrade the next? For simplicity I'm going to use 100 as a base. Base (apply bonus before each stat): 100 ad for Q upgrade 100 ap for W upgrade 100 atk speed for E upgrade

So you get the E first. 150 ad for Q 150 ap for W

Now you get Q. 200 ap for W.

Something scaling like that?

Jaspers2 votes

Scaling sounds fair, if they keep it, I don't understand why she has this second passive when Syndra's passive doesn't even do anything until level 8, I'd be happy if they just removed it and balanced the missing HP better.

Each stat scaling to high amounts makes the player commit to a build. My problem with Kai'Sa at the moment is primarily her mixed damage and diversity of builds. You can literally buy any AD or AP on her, no joke, they all work. I can't build AP Caitlyn and be successful, it's pretty much Crit or don't bother.

I'd first swap her E, not to attack speed but crit.

Then starting stats are: 100bAD 100AP 50% crit

Once you get the first one: 200bAD 200AP 75% crit.

Then 300bAD, 300AP or 100% crit. Balance her around the idea she is committing to 1 build isntead of buying a Rageblade, StormRazor, Zhonyas and Deathcap and it still being okay.

TehNACHO6 votes

Can't get all 3 is a strong phrase, but making it more difficult to get all three until the late game sounds more right.

Let's recall that Kai'Sa is modeled after Vayne, and she was meant to be a late game carry. I'm perfectly alright with a fully augmented 6 item Kai'Sa. The balance team's job at this point is deciding when and where Kai'Sa should hit her power spikes. HaIlMonitor has a point in that she can get away with building practically anything and still being powerful, which seems like a far cry in terms of design from other late game carries.

Dat Kat27 votes

Shout out to every Aatrox main that got shit on by this guy's work.

Luminier10 votes

Yeah, feelsbad. By my personal definition (and probably a good chunk of others), a good rework preserves a champion's personality and playstyle and enhances on it.

Aatrox is both completely different in terms of personality and gameplay, and not for the better for anyone who loved him before. By my definition, the Aatrox rework was a failure.

Devilangel61612 votes

I cannot think of a single full rework that has preserved both personality and playstyle. Every one has changed one or the other completely.

Lb went from an assassin to a control mage

Graves went from a short range burst adc to a power farm burst jungler

Poppy went from literal 1v5 cause only one guy could touch her to "nope your all going home"

Galio went from reflecting damage back with his ultimate to control mage support mid laner who has map pressure.

Now I'm not saying these were all aweful reworks, although Lbs I will say was, but the fundimentaly changed the play style of the champs.

Neokilljoy8 votes

Warwick

Èpicwyvern4 votes

{quoted}

Shout out to every Aatrox main that got shit on by this guy's work.

:'(

Frosted Tips16 votes

The whole thing about people hating the Aatrox rework because he "lost his identity" is completely ridiculous. Aatrox got reworked because his "identity" was not unique and was not really healthy. The reason it took so long to rework him (pretty much was told he would receive a rework 1 year after his release) is because he had nothing really unique about his kit. Pretty much they had to rethink his entire design around his lore and being a Darkin.

I would argue that Kai'Sa is a perfect combination of two champions. Kha'Zix and Vayne. She is actually what would happen if you took 50% of those two and put them together. Like Kha Q and Kai Q do more damage when the champion is isolated. Kha W and Kai W are both void spikes and are ranged harass. Kha R and Kai E are nearly identical except Kai gets an attack speed buff aswell.

Camille is like what everyone has said. What Vi should have been, but she has way too many tools.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Entire ADC line up rework when? None of them has any identity besides rightclicking you to death in different skins.

Frosted Tips3 votes

If you believe that is true then you obviously don't play them. Yes alot are similar, but they are all unique in some way. Most notably their laning phases.

Sharpest glasses3 votes

felt same when i read

. Aatrox got reworked because his "identity" was not unique

SennaFirstPick2 votes

then why aren't many, many other obnoxious champions not getting removed from game?

why is yi allowed to stay in game? why trynda? why jax. aatrox needed a rework. aatrox didn't need to be removed from game.

Auz the Ripper4 votes

By “identity” a lot of us Aatrox player mean the “character identity” and while I personally would have liked more autoattacking, I would have been happy simply if he didn’t get turned into “generic angry dude with a voice filter #3”

Linna Excel12 votes

To everyone complaining about the aatrox rework: he needed one.

As for Riot Jag, I think he needs to give his champs more defined weaknesses.

Frosted Tips11 votes

Can't agree more. Nice simple message that is correct.

Moody P9 votes
  1. no he didn't, aatrox was fine, his only flaw was not being marketable

  2. new aatrox is 10x more toxic

MorganFreemanBot7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8MtVjYr,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2018-10-14T20:30:03.043+0000)

  1. no he didn't, aatrox was fine, his only flaw was not being marketable

  2. new aatrox is 10x more toxic

Old Aatrox did not have a gameplay identity.

"Dude who attacks really fast and heals from it. But he also has a GA passive!" is not an identity.

XinZhao , Warwick , Udyr , & Olaf had that playstyle on lock. MasterYi &Tryndamere also a very similar gameplay loop as well, being "fast attacking duelists" who benefit heavily from life steal.

Aatrox didn't have an identity. He was just a couple of different aspects of otherwise very similar champions cobbled together, given a nonsensical GA passive, and set loose on the rift.

With the exception of Tryndamere , every single one of the mentioned champions have received at least one rework (in some cases majorly, in others more minorly) to combat their innately stat-check profiles and make them a little more interactive to play against or as.

You'll also notice that all of the mentioned reworks solidified a part of their identity, doubling down on it.

Warwick as the relentless hunter who chases down wounded prey and, like a cornered animal, becomes more dangerous when wounded.

Olaf being the unstoppable force who rushes through hell to kill his foe, completely unstoppable inescapable.

XinZhao being the penultimate diver who leaps onto a chosen enemy, clears the stage, and runs them through with his spear.

MasterYi being a snowbally piece of shit.

So what does that leave Aatrox? The hunter, the duelist, the unstoppable reckless killing machine, the piece of shit everyone hates. We have so many variations of drain-tank diver that it was crowded out. There wasn't any more ground to explore.

And Aatrox personality.. didn't exist. His entire taunt line up - all fucking 5 of them - were "Fight and be a hero or die and be a cowrd" with a few extra words.

His entire personality was "FIGHT ME!" but elegant word choice.

So they doubled down on that.

Newtrox is still the same "FIGHT ME!" guy, with the same impressive vocabulary and somewhat poetic speech patterns, but he's given a reason for it beyond War-Is-Cool.

Gameplay wise they went with, again, the only thing they had. "FIGHT ME!"

As an ancient body-snatching swordsmen who hates mortals and sees them as nothing more than upstart insects, his kit is built around proving that he's more skilled than his enemies. His kit flows surprisingly well, and represents a lethal duelist well (MUCH better than Fiora 's rework does) who wants to work his enemies over, show that he's better than them, and then kill them once they're humiliated. This is achieved well, because an Aatrox who works you over with hitting every edge of his Q has indisputably out-played you.

Aatrox is an entirely new champion yes, but there wasn't much of a champion to start with. If you really want to play oldtroxx then just go pick up Xin or something, it's almost exactly the same gameplay with very subtle difference.

Power Cosmic2 votes

{quoted}

Old Aatrox did not have a gameplay identity.

"Dude who attacks really fast and heals from it. But he also has a GA passive!" is not an identity.

XinZhao , Warwick , Udyr , & Olaf had that playstyle on lock. MasterYi &Tryndamere also a very similar gameplay loop as well, being "fast attacking duelists" who benefit heavily from life steal.

Aatrox didn't have an identity. He was just a couple of different aspects of otherwise very similar champions cobbled together, given a nonsensical GA passive, and set loose on the rift.

With the exception of Tryndamere , every single one of the mentioned champions have received at least one rework (in some cases majorly, in others more minorly) to combat their innately stat-check profiles and make them a little more interactive to play against or as.

You'll also notice that all of the mentioned reworks solidified a part of their identity, doubling down on it.

Warwick as the relentless hunter who chases down wounded prey and, like a cornered animal, becomes more dangerous when wounded.

Olaf being the unstoppable force who rushes through hell to kill his foe, completely unstoppable inescapable.

XinZhao being the penultimate diver who leaps onto a chosen enemy, clears the stage, and runs them through with his spear.

MasterYi being a snowbally piece of shit.

So what does that leave Aatrox? The hunter, the duelist, the unstoppable reckless killing machine, the piece of shit everyone hates. We have so many variations of drain-tank diver that it was crowded out. There wasn't any more ground to explore.

And Aatrox personality.. didn't exist. His entire taunt line up - all fucking 5 of them - were "Fight and be a hero or die and be a cowrd" with a few extra words.

His entire personality was "FIGHT ME!" but elegant word choice.

So they doubled down on that.

Newtrox is still the same "FIGHT ME!" guy, with the same impressive vocabulary and somewhat poetic speech patterns, but he's given a reason for it beyond War-Is-Cool.

Gameplay wise they went with, again, the only thing they had. "FIGHT ME!"

As an ancient body-snatching swordsmen who hates mortals and sees them as nothing more than upstart insects, his kit is built around proving that he's more skilled than his enemies. His kit flows surprisingly well, and represents a lethal duelist well (MUCH better than Fiora 's rework does) who wants to work his enemies over, show that he's better than them, and then kill them once they're humiliated. This is achieved well, because an Aatrox who works you over with hitting every edge of his Q has indisputably out-played you.

Aatrox is an entirely new champion yes, but there wasn't much of a champion to start with. If you really want to play oldtroxx then just go pick up Xin or something, it's almost exactly the same gameplay with very subtle difference.

Dude, they deleted Aatrox before reworking super outdated Volibear. The difference was Aatrox's enormous business potential bc of his release which was the biggest ever in the games history.

Ætheist2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Power Cosmic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8MtVjYr,comment-id=000b000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-14T22:05:22.030+0000)

The difference was Aatrox's enormous business potential bc of his release which was the biggest ever in the games history.

Are you talking about his original release or the release of his rework? Neither one was anywhere near the biggest release in this game's history, as far as I'm aware.

I'm like 90% sure the biggest release by a measurable metric is either Jinx or the reworked Gangplank.

  • "Get Jinxed" is the second most viewed video on League's YouTube page (making it the most viewed original League content on the channel because #1 is an Imagine Dragons song, and not counting Worlds songs by bands, Get Jinxed has nearly twice as many views as the next runner up, the Twist of Fate cinematic).

  • Gangplank's rework got an entire game mode, new announcer VO (the first custom announcer ever) and an ARAM reskin dedicated to it, as well as gaining a new base design halfway into the event and literally dying for a period of time.

Moody P2 votes

Volibear isn't outdated, just out-stat'd. Don't project your anger onto a champ who doesn't deserve it.

Power Cosmic2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8MtVjYr,comment-id=000b0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-14T22:28:44.827+0000)

Volibear isn't outdated, just out-stat'd. Don't project your anger onto a champ who doesn't deserve it.

Analysis is not anger. If Volibear is not outdated, than how can Aatrox need a rework (deletion). If you can't realize that you never will. They both have Crap gap close Q, passive steroid W, Weak zoning E, and Big Steroid Active R's with a Passive that gives sustain. Facts are facts, if you can't see the disrespect shown to Aatrox fans, then it just shows the quality of people in this community. Riot should be wanting to make the community better not divide it with greedy motivations.

Moody P4 votes

don't ask me dude, i hate the aatrox rework and i know my bear's about to get the same treatment

Luminier10 votes

{quoted} Aatrox is an entirely new champion yes, but there wasn't much of a champion to start with. If you really want to play oldtroxx then just go pick up Xin or something, it's almost exactly the same gameplay with very subtle difference.

Yeah, you sound like you never played a game of old Aatrox in your life. It's like comparing new Aatrox to Riven. They sound similar on paper but they play completely differently.

Kazekiba3 votes

{quoted}

Old Aatrox did not have a gameplay identity.

And Aatrox personality.. didn't exist. His entire taunt line up - all fucking 5 of them - were "Fight and be a hero or die and be a cowrd" with a few extra words.

His entire personality was "FIGHT ME!" but elegant word choice.

What they did was they got rid of the "War artist, True Neutral deity that acts behind the scenes but influences history on a global scale".

"This battle... will be my masterpiece!" "They called my work a 'Hack job'!" something about blood is paint and war is his canvas, iirc.

Discarding that and instead giving him this awful stereotyped accent somewhere-between-russia-and-germany (because playing on old mid-20th century American fear-based stereotypes is GREAT character design, guys!) will likely stand as the biggest sin of Riot's champion design team, period.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

{quoted}

What they did was they got rid of the "War artist, True Neutral deity that acts behind the scenes but influences history on a global scale".

"This battle... will be my masterpiece!" "They called my work a 'Hack job'!" something about blood is paint and war is his canvas, iirc.

Discarding that and instead giving him this awful stereotyped accent somewhere-between-russia-and-germany (because playing on old mid-20th century American fear-based stereotypes is GREAT character design, guys!) will likely stand as the biggest sin of Riot's champion design team, period.

I feel like everybody brings up the same three lines when talking about how great the old Aatrox was, but personally, I see a lot of better lines in new Aatrox. His long movement lines sound so good when you're just walking back to lane and listening to what's going on with him. People seem to think new Aatrox is just "BIG SCREAMY MAN ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG", which I thought at first too, but once you actually play him for a bit, you can see that a ton of his lines are actually quite solemn. Heck, just go to the League wiki and search Aatrox/Quotes.

"Once in noble battle, I screamed against the silence. I stood as light against the darkness. Now, I serve a new master... oblivion..." "They will call me villain... Come, let me earn their hatred, again and forever." "I touched the stars, and saw the glorious light of a thousand suns! Now, blinded by this elegance, how could my purpose be anything... but dark..." "No beast so fierce, but knows some touch of pity... But I know none... and therefore am no beast. (Laughs)"

For me, when I tried to play old Aatrox a few times, he was basically just this weird guy who repeated the same lines over and over again in this weird fish bowl voice. New Aatrox's lines will certainly stick with me longer than:

"Violence is elegance." "Peace is the greatest lie of all." "True warriors are born in blood." and the variations of "Fight and be remembered as..."

I get the whole thing about not wanting the old Aatrox gone; I get it. But Old Aatrox wasn't some objectively better masterpiece of a character; he wasn't even really much of a character. He also didn't really fit into the lore well, except for his relationship with Tryndamere. But this new Aatrox actually helps solidify what the Darkin are and places them in the world of Runeterra quite well.

A few things that I've got to agree with you on: Why is Aatrox Russian? Like, he's from Shurima, and we know what Shurimans sound like... And they don't sound Russian. So, uh... Why tf does he have the accent?

Also, it'd be neat to see that whole behind-the-scenes warmonger concept get expanded upon. Something better designed in this current age of LoL lore. Might be able to fit as well, but I think Riot's narrative team could definitely do it.

Auz the Ripper1 votes

The problem with new Aatrox is that “vengeful fallen Demi-god” thing is already in the game in several other characters with variations. Renekton in particular is near identical in basic premise of “guardian corrupted by the thing they were guarding people from” and now both came from the same area. It’s a played out archetype in many forms of media even besides that, it’s even the main antagonist of the Bible.

The only character in the game close to old Aatrox is jhin and they have an extreme difference in scale and methods

Ætheist3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8MtVjYr,comment-id=000b00010000000400000000,timestamp=2018-10-15T18:06:03.040+0000)

The problem with new Aatrox is that “vengeful fallen Demi-god” thing is already in the game in several other characters with variations. Renekton in particular is near identical in basic premise of “guardian corrupted by the thing they were guarding people from” and now both came from the same area. It’s a played out archetype in many forms of media even besides that, it’s even the main antagonist of the Bible.

The only character in the game close to old Aatrox is jhin and they have an extreme difference in scale and methods

The only person Aatrox actually wants revenge on specifically is the Aspect of Twilight, though (and even then the Aspect who actually sealed him is long gone, so he has to settle for Zoe instead).

Everyone else are just pawns for him to see fight, exactly like the old Aatrox, only now he actually has a purpose in doing so (if old Aatrox actually had a reason for inciting wars beyond enjoying it, it was very vague).

New Aatrox specifically wants to cause Ragnarok. To see all of Runeterra, man and god alike, destroy themselves in one final conflict, in the hope that it will free him from his curse.

Like someone else said, the new Aatrox still has some of his former nobility. It's just easy to gloss over it because the impact of his new voice makes it seem like he's nothing but a big ball of rage.

Mind you, I don't have anything against his old VO. I think that sort of characterization has potential on a demon based on the sin of wrath. You know, like how Evelynn is lust and Tahm is gluttony. Assuming they continue the theme of demons based on sins.

Kazekiba1 votes

Breaking news: Champion with barely 80 seconds of dialogue repeats the same lines a lot in a 35 minute game. Ever played Veigar or Jax?

Also I never mentioned any of the four lines you quoted; talking solely about the "This battle will be my masterpiece", and his taunts to Tryndamere, etc. Why does new Aatrox have 0 interactions with Tryndamere now? That's lame.

old Aatrox was also tied to Jax, Noxus and Demacia's feud (possibly) ... and there's no reason to throw away the old to add the new. You can have both, and thats what I wanted.

also I want his old E, as awful as it was its better than half a vayne tumble that gives AD for 0.75 seconds.

Ætheist2 votes

{quoted}

Why does new Aatrox have 0 interactions with Tryndamere now? That's lame.

  • When Attacking Tryndamere "I killed your tribe. Now, join them!" "Tryndamere! This is your destiny!"

  • Encountering Tryndamere "(Laughs) Yes, Tryndamere! I am the cause of your suffering! See if you can cut justice from me!" "I wait for you, Tryndamere! Come, take your vengeance!" "Remember the screams of your kinsmen as you fall to me, Tryndamere!" "Rage? You are just flesh, Tryndamere, ready for harvesting!"

He also has an encounter line for Jax now, which is more than he had before. In fact, Tryndamere was the ONLY champion he had lines for before, and only two lines at that.

jocomotion10 votes

Certainly T = Frustrating mechanics that aren’t fun to play against Jag = Overloaded kits that are overbearing to play against

Got it.

ModCaptainMårvelous31 votes

{quoted}

Xypherous has also created a lot of abominations http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Kuo-Yen_%27Xypherous%27_Lo Repertoir as well http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/David_%27Repertoir%27_Capurro

Xyph and Rep also have huge catalogs of champs, with both great successes and failures. There's bound to be good, decent and flops. Nobody has made 100% perfect designs.

Jag, however, is up to 3. Two have been jack-of-all-trade balance problems and one is difficult to talk about without someone kicking down the door and screaming about how it's not the true Aatrox.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

In no fucking way xyph has made good champions

jesus

all his champions without exceptions are the most powerful generalists of the game with low/no mana costs

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

{quoted}

In no fucking way xyph has made good champions

jesus

all his champions without exceptions are the most powerful generalists of the game with low/no mana costs

Iunno man I like Orianna and Naut, plus I can appreciate Riven although that's more so from animation canceling.

Ætheist5 votes

Kai'Sa also makes Kog'Maw kinda irrelevant, doesn't she?

Like, maybe Kog still scales better (I'm not actually sure if he does, since Kai'Sa scales really hard), but Kai'Sa has a better almost everything else.

Also, seeing Kai'Sa build a sort of hybrid AP/on-hit build makes me wonder why nobody builds Nashor's on Kog. Especially when Kog is so heavily reliant on his W being up.

Nope, ignore this post. I'm stupid and wrong and a brain-dead retarded moron.

AirKingNeo5 votes

He's the man responsible for killing my second favorite champion. Other designs he makes are too loaded and he refuses to fix them.

He is a not a good designer. I do not like him.

stone the blacks5 votes

Ok but Rabid LLama is really good

he made Bard AurelionSol | Hexakill, Legend of Poro King, Dark Star: Singularity

Im not Biased

Thaumaturge Void3 votes

Regarding Aatrox ;

Lore: I do not like the new Darkin lore, especially not Aatrox’s. I can accept the Darkin being involved with Shurima and the Void. I can accept corrupted Ascendants. I cannot accept them being the same thing. Now we technically do have 5 Darkin by definition (Ascendants who no longer are noble but only exist to gain power).

I can accept Aatrox once being something more noble. I can accept Aatrox being desperate to find/keep a host and eventually get out of his sword. I cannot accept him being obsessed with total destruction and a rage machine. He was much better when he was in control of major events regarding wars in Runeterra, and had a better personality than “kill kill kill”. Used to at least pretend he cared for a side in a major conflict and help them in order to further his own plans, now absorbs both sides to help destroy reality. (How’s he gonna destroy Space-Time again? By making a body so large it collapses in on itself? Can’t say for certain he knows what the World Runes are, and he doesn’t seem able to absorb abilities of his enemies, only bodies.)

Gameplay: I do not like Aatrox’s new gameplay, especially since it doesn’t play to his theme of improving himself with the bodies of his enemies well. Old one he was a terrifying being that coerced one side to fight against impossible odds, which his old kit didn’t fit well with either, but it did fit better than this one.

The original passive would have fit infinitely better than the current one because it plays so well with the theme of improving yourself with your enemies. Original Q fits better since personality-wise he would rather charge straight in than be a pansy and fight at range first, in fact if he’s supposed to be colossal now then the Q would have made even more sense. Both Ws surprisingly fit both of their themes to me, original being about manipulating battles, new being about inescapable death. The new E is better than the old one, but I think something else would have been better. Both Ults are bad in my opinion, though the Original fits the theme better as a manipulator than the New, since the New is again supposed to be about using your enemys’ bodies against them but only reacts to harm to yourself.

Appearances: The Original will always be better. To compare;

Original:

New:

One of those guys looks cold and calculating, maybe gonna kill you, maybe not. The other looks like he tripped and fell on his back after stepping in dog crap and is now expressing mild disappointment with his teeth.

All in all, I hope the next time they rework him, hopefully they will eventually, that they do it right.

SanKakU3 votes

Aatrox rework is garbage, not a huge fan of Kai'sa, and no comment on Camille since I haven't really had a chance to play her much.

Bjørnetjenesten3 votes

Riotjag's designs might have "overloaded" kits, but usually never any game breaking mechanics. This is a good thing, since the numbers can be changed to balance them easily.

Lets take Camille as an example: She was hotfix nerfed 1 week after release and several nerfs followed afterwards to get her in the right spot. IMO she is a perfectly balanced champ that have clear strength and weakness and a very straight forward no nonsense kit. Nowhere close to someone like Zoe Akali or Yasuo, where you feel completely outclassed and powerless in certain situations, especially because they break the game in fundamental ways that feels extremely unfair.

Same goes with Kaisa her numbers need to be tweaked and she will be fine.. nothing like Kalista who is completely impossible to balance, since her kit breaks the game.

Stars Shaper2 votes

I don't think it's right to show this antagonism toward a champion designer unless they really mess up thematics and kits of champions.

Also we should remember that while a champion (be it a new one or a rework) is handled mainly by a single person, it's not like they are working in a sealed room and the product gets released without further polishing and discussion around the entire champions/reworks team. Ultimately, the entire team ins involved in it.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U8MtVjYr,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-10-14T17:54:12.694+0000)

I don't think it's right to show this antagonism toward a champion designer unless they really mess up thematics and kits of champions.

Also we should remember that while a champion (be it a new one or a rework) is handled mainly by a single person, it's not like they are working in a sealed room and the product gets released without further polishing and discussion around the entire champions/reworks team. Ultimately, the entire team ins involved in it.

I mean I'm not exactly showing antagonism or telling him he's bad at his job/he should be fired (See: Every thread about CT). However, I did want to be critical of his designs and say that his kits are kind of leaning toward the problematic and that I hope he improves from Cam/Kaisa.

And while he wasn't the ONLY designer, he was the lead designer. I don't think he's terrible or anything, I just think his champs need a bit more polish and I hope he can iron out the problems they seem to have.

Packun Flower2 votes

Both are pretty bad but I'd rather live in a world where league doesn't have Yasuo or Zoe (Ironic isn't it?) than a world where jag's champs don't exist

I do acknowledge though that Camille was absolutely the most overloaded champion to be released ever. The nerfs and tweaks to her kits helped but release wise she was just awful to fight against, she literally did every single thing ever.

what a nightmare that was.

Thaumaturge Void3 votes

OG Aatrox was a good counter if you could play well enough.

Sharpest glasses2 votes

If he could, he wouldnt complain about Yasuo

MadNoff2 votes

_ In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so. But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new. The world is often unkind to new talent, new creations. The new needs friends._ - A long-faced dude who eats rat food.

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