At the moment double CC mage is becoming the norm in bot lane, and crowding out all competition. We need more magic resist options! Hexdrinker is the ONLY viable magic resist item for marksmen, and considering the majority of them are very attack speed dependent it's an extremely expensive buy.
Anime Fizz6 votesNot only bot but mage top, mage mid, basically mage everywhere because mage items are broken and MR is the worst stat the game.
No good MR items to rush or even build at all in every single class, because you know they had to nerf the only good early game mr option we had (hexdrinker), meanwhile fking armguard and the abomination that is hourglass exists.
I honestly feel like every champ should have like 40 or 50 base mr at lvl 1, its just stupid on how strong mpen is and how weak MR is.
Denelix1 votes[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-25T04:02:13.866+0000)
Not only bot but mage top, mage mid, basically mage everywhere because mage items are broken and MR is the worst stat the game.
No good MR items to rush or even build at all in every single class, because you know they had to nerf the only good early game mr option we had (hexdrinker), meanwhile fking armguard and the abomination that is hourglass exists.
I honestly feel like every champ should have like 40 or 50 base mr at lvl 1, its just stupid on how strong mpen is and how weak MR is.
???????????????????? no
Ragnaveil5 votes"Mages are weak though, people aren't abusing them" -Mages. If a Orianna with Aery Resolve is able to survive a Panth early game, then idk what else speaks to the amount of bs that the mages are weak statement is. Dont get me even started on Vlad sustain.
FenjaminBranklen2 votesvlad imo is supposed to be a niche case of a mage with sustain but in exchange no hard cc. You're right about ori, though.
WoonStruck1 votesPretending Vlad has anything other than super minor sustain outside of low HP empowered Q before 2 items.
[sg-miss-fortune]
His sustain is still complete trash early. I think you're just salty because Aatrox's sustain got nerfed.
Schenix1 votesSustain is more in pertinence to neutralizing a lane in this case. You can't just bully him out easily, and a good Vlad will make it difficult to make anything stick, or to get out of the lane "ahead" more than 300 gold.
So you can pick most of the champion pool with an expectation to be a bully or win lane, but he can keep you locked in without clear advantages beyond a mild gold differential unless he missteps. Makes keeping the pressure on hard because you have to just keep dealing with him, and are having the top laner kept busy.
Jerry SeinfeId2 votesimagine trying to defend the abomination we call vladimir.
Ahri Baka3 votes"Mages are weak though, people aren't abusing them" -Mages. If a Orianna with Aery Resolve is able to survive a Panth early game, then idk what else speaks to the amount of bs that the mages are weak statement is. Dont get me even started on Vlad sustain.
She can't, that Panth is just horrible
Ragnaveil1 votesOh she can. She very much can. Just like Annie.
Ahri Baka3 votesOh she can. She very much can. Just like Annie.
Then you didn't play against her or you are just biased ( well it's both ) , she can't , Panth easily wins the match up , he has higher numbers. Even Annie can't win against Panth , the player really must be bad if he loses to those champions.
Ragnaveil1 votesI think you like to make mages out to be weaker in the early game, when thats not really the case.
anatasjhsh014 votesMages needs to get out of bot lane
booNflesruoYnaB4 votesMages are not allowed to be good or even playable in a melee assassin meta. Mages are supposed to be free gold for the melee assassins otherwise something is wrong and needs fixing.
LTK KoRo4 votesmelee assassin meta xd, nice joke buddy. There are two good assassins right now, Akali and LeBlanc.
Baby Ghoul4 votesMages are not allowed to be good or even playable in a melee assassin meta. Mages are supposed to be free gold for the melee assassins otherwise something is wrong and needs fixing.
I'd be more sympathetic to mage mains if you guys didn't try to abuse the meta yourself by going bot anytime a chance opens up.
We all have to deal with melee assassin BS. It needs to be fixed for sure.
That doesn't mean you should be doing an insane amount of damage bot lane.
It's genuinely not fun to play against, and building against that isn't realistic for a marksmen because of their specific builds. Support items tend to come with MR of some sort, but it isn't enough to deal with the supremacy that mages have bot lane early game and it will never be that early because they don't get enough gold.
The rise of mage supports bot lane is an even larger issue that has been brewing for quite some time that has been put on the back burner since we all had to ban Pyke, and now probably Blitzcrank too, but it wasn't forgotten. The removal of Sightstone due to everyone in pro play abusing it removed a barrier that mages had when coming bot lane. They couldn't just build straight damage without putting the lane at risk. Now you can just start building damage right out of the gate and it's a reason why snowballs can happen so quickly bot lane. There's no trade off.
thefatlazycat4 votesMages are not allowed to be good or even playable in a melee assassin meta. Mages are supposed to be free gold for the melee assassins otherwise something is wrong and needs fixing.
It's a burst Meta, mages and assassins are the strongest, but because of how strong AP items are and how weak MR items are mages outperform assassins
WoonStruck3 votesMR doesn't need to be adjusted at all. Mage items just need nerfs.
Ahri Baka3 votes
Frontline Fury3 votes[{quoted}](name=Ahri Baka,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-09-25T07:40:39.909+0000)
try buying that in lane against any one of these and see how long you live anywhere but behind your turret, outside turret range to avoid the long-range spells on 2-3 second cooldowns.
Ahri Baka5 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-09-25T08:08:10.463+0000)
try buying that in lane against any one of these and see how long you live anywhere but behind your turret, outside turret range to avoid the long-range spells on 2-3 second cooldowns.
In lane? It works heavily vs Ziggs, Zyra , Veiger and Zilean. Veiger early dmg is a meme in the first place , he just scales too hard but has nothing to do in laning. On the other hand ye Vel, Brand Syndra and Cass all are either dps maged or got true damage , only the 450G item might not be enough but it can still do a lot ( except vs Brand, fu*@ that champion , tho you can still avoid some of his skillshots )
Ragnaveil2 votesYou forgot 
and her one rotation one shot she can do under your turret.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesyou seem to be lagging behind a couple years cuz there's no way annie is oneshotting unless she's fed rn. like there's plenty actual bs out there you coulda brought up. like 
.
Ragnaveil1 votesShe actually can funnily enough. Just need to equate runes and her power at level 6. She runs ignite. She doesnt need to be fed, because she as a mage has one thing that never got adjusted: cooldowns and base damage. Q has a 220 max base + 80% AP, on a 4 second cooldown, with a cd reducer and full mana refund on unit kill. W has 70 (not sure what rank it would be at 6) + 85% AP, on a 8 second cooldown. The only spell whos base and ratios are not out of wack is her R.
Pika Fox3 votesMerc, hex, qss, play and position better, deaths dance
You have enough options.
Speeedy2 votesyou want adc to rush 
and 
? When over half of the ADC roster doesnt even build DD. If your playing a crit ADC then you do 0 damage till full build.
Pika Fox1 votesyou want adc to rush
You do more damage alive than dead. And the ADCs job isnt to deal damage, its just to kill towers and dragons and baron. You can go DD > PD > RFC > IE just fine. Remember, theyre running a kill lane. Their objective taking potential is much lower. You being able to survive and get gold is more important than being able to deal damage.
Plus, AP champs are by far burst champs. Survive their burst, and you win by default.
Frontline Fury1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2019-09-25T14:22:07.999+0000)
Merc, hex, qss, play and position better, deaths dance
You have enough options.
Except that any mage can 100-0 any bot lane champion with 3 spells, while bot lane champions can land their entire spell rotation perfectly and still have to basic attack 12+ times to kill their lane opponent. And don't forget you not only have to stand still to basic attack, you also have to get in range of your target - unlike champions like who happily runs away from you while throwing out their entire spell rotation mid-movement, where getting hit once is often a death sentence.
Pika Fox1 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2019-09-26T10:32:27.210+0000)
Except that any mage can 100-0 any bot lane champion with 3 spells, while bot lane champions can land their entire spell rotation perfectly and still have to basic attack 12+ times to kill their lane opponent. And don't forget you not only have to stand still to basic attack, you also have to get in range of your target - unlike champions like
Its called positioning and animation cancelling.
Frontline Fury1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a00010000,timestamp=2019-09-26T12:56:35.872+0000)
Its called positioning and animation cancelling.
Yes, let's see you outposition , , or 
lmao
Pika Fox1 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-26T19:35:12.982+0000)
Yes, let's see you outposition
I do it all the time. Im a support main, and actually play most of them, so i know their cast ranges. (Also its hilarious you have veig and brand listed.... Neither can kill you unless youre literally ontop of them. Hell, veig cant even flash kill you from full like annie or brand can)
Frontline Fury1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-26T20:20:41.146+0000)
I do it all the time. Im a support main, and actually play most of them, so i know their cast ranges. (Also its hilarious you have veig and brand listed.... Neither can kill you unless youre literally ontop of them. Hell, veig cant even flash kill you from full like annie or brand can)
Veigar doesn't need to 100-0 you. He can drop his stun every 6 seconds or so, preventing you from retaliating against him and his lane partner while allowing them to freely aim their spells on you. Every. 6. Seconds.
Pika Fox1 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U7ejIcHo,comment-id=000a00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-27T04:00:31.430+0000)
Veigar doesn't need to 100-0 you. He can drop his stun every 6 seconds or so, preventing you from retaliating against him and his lane partner while allowing them to freely aim their spells on you. Every. 6. Seconds.
If veig presses E, doesnt trap you, then moves up to get his spells in range to threaten you, hes dead. If your support doesnt all in his ass for being stupid, wasting his only defensive CD and over extending, your support isnt playing the game right. Throw is a draven, lucian, or jhin adc, and its a free kill, potentially free double.
That shit is just free gold for naut, blitz, pyke, leona, alistar, morgana, lux...
Jesi Oni2 votes
No longer a troll pick?
🤣
preternatural2 voteshashinshin was right guys, just say it so we can get to doing something else.
Bugog1 votesHashinshin says so much that it would be an anomaly if he didn't get something right.
But Hashinshin's view of balance is anything that doesn't immediately fold to "bwewsers" at every point in the game is broken.
preternatural1 votesHashinshin says so much that it would be an anomaly if he didn't get something right.
But Hashinshin's view of balance is anything that doesn't immediately fold to "bwewsers" at every point in the game is broken.
lol where do people get this idea that saying the same thing 4 days in a row is saying "so much"
preternatural1 votesanother day when my isp is playing ball. he did mention that mage skill shots move faster than adc's can dodge before boots 2, while lux was in her pomp. also that MR items are poor but everyone already knows that.
Bugog2 votes
are one of the best items in the game. The tenacity is the reason to get them, but the MR negates early sorc boots and provides more survivability on top.
If you're running into a dual mage bot lane they are a good buy.
preternatural1 votes
If you're running into a dual mage bot lane they are a good buy.
actually rune tenacity is better than mercs. only fiddle might necessitate mercs lol, everyone else you're better off just getting flat dmg or hp.
Bugog1 votesI don't get your comment.
What flat damage or hp is competing with mercs?
The rune tenacity isn't stronger than mercs, and you have to get a number of stacks to get it there, so I'm confused by your comment. Not everyone wants to go precision tree either, which is just another problem.
The Kombinator2 votesOr maybe give the mages some real mana costs. I hate, that many of them can spam spells in the first 10 minutes without mana issues. By the time you actually need mana you have enough gold to recall, and get tear. After that it's over. You can spam your stuff forever.
Or make enchanter's protective cooldowns less a bit, or increase the poker mages' skills higher. Right now if you hit your shield perfectly as Lulu. A Vel'koz, or Brand can attack before you shield is off CD.
Speeedy2 votesI played against a 
and it was a joke of a lane. Pre 6 it was a good lane and everyone was even no kills but soon as they both hit 6 either brand or myself was getting nuked even with 
. It completely was unfun with minimal counterplay. They had the most basic strategy of have xer spam until he hits one of us twice. Then syndra would walk up to stun & ult and we would die.
item needs a hard nerf since it is so good compared to the AD counterpart. 40AP, 300 mana (goodbye mana issues), CDR, and restore mana on leveling up and all I can get is 40AD for the same exact cost with 
.
How am I supposed to keep pace with them when their first item is 
at 3200 gold that solves their mana problems, gives big damage, waveclear, CDR vs my first item 
at 3400 with a 25% chance to do more damage. I know I can auto attack more but I can't really do it without attack speed.
WalkingInACircle2 votes"Enduring the damage" is the wrong response. Asking for items that completely neutralize magic damage champs is dumb and lazy.
Beating a lane like this depends on what tools the botlane fighting them has. Hook supports are very good at it. Blitz, Nautilus, Pyke most of all. Adc wise I know comet Ashe dumpsters poke botlanes. Champions like Jhin and MF should have answers.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votes"b-b-but mages week, me no have diverse itemsation"
I don't think mage botlaners need to go, i quite like lux support (as hated as it is). but i still find it funny how these boards whine about the botlane carry role being 95% marksmen when mages can literally play every single position in the game, fuck one of those adc they complain about is just an ad mage.
Pandemic Punch1 votesRemember when this game had Tanks to deal with Mages?
Daddy Ants1 votesLet's not forget that almost every single Marksman will build Phantom Dancer at some point in the game
Hexdrinker does NOT stack with Phantom Dancer.
OtterlyLost1 votesI don't mind mages botlane on principal; its fine, whatever. In practice, however, double mages (like Zyra/Xerath or Lux/Syndra or Morgana/Swain) is incredibly problematic. You have to dance around like a god and know their exact hit boxes all the time constantly. There's two of them constantly lobbing out spells, one of which doesn't even have to focus on farming. Its exhausting and you're just inevitably going to be hit by something unless you're like scripting or something. And often times getting hit by one spell means that you're about to get by at least two to three more. Its not likely you'll survive that. Its such a punishing lane.
The best you can do is get merc treads but I often find I miss the early AS that Grieves give. There's hex drinker but if you're someone like Tristana or Jinx or Cait, that item has already put you 1300 gold behind your opponent who doesn't have to optimize specifically for you; why is a mage going to build an armor item for a champion that doesn't do that much damage to them early on the principal that the champion is intended to scale for late? This isn't even touching on how Hex Drinker directly interferes with building PD later, the item you want to try and cushion you against everything instead of just mages. And you can't build PD first because you won't have any damage at that point.
Its not a good situation.
I'm not asking for mages to be removed. I am, however, asking that if they're dead set on bot lane diversity, they need to balance these new picks for the bot lane. They need to be balanced with the idea that they're facing often immobile, squishy champions who have limited defensive itemization options. Either the new champions to bot lane need to be balanced for that that or the marksmen should be rebalanced to better deal with the new things. Neither of these have happened and its been an issue since 8.11, which was a huge part of Marksmen Main's issues with the new diversity. There was nothing provided to marksmen to equip them to deal with new lane opponents.
Linna Excel1 votesThanks riot. Your bold decision to force mages out of midlane is paying dividends. Metas like this wouldn't be possible without you.
Snark aside, it's pretty clear that riot prefers assassins as the mid lane class. Mage players like playing their champs and if they have to go bot, they will.
RekSai CoffeeCo1 votesWell If you all really think this is a problem there is a saying I heard of in the past but have problems remembering the last part of it which starts as,,
If you can't beat them - - - - space - - - -. I really have no idea what the last two 4 letter words are but I think the first letter of the first word is J.