Boards›Gameplay

Aatrox's Potential thematically and mechanically

FlameHalbrdOkido··7 votes·3,989 views

So I know Aatrox isnt a super popular champ right now

Lets talk about why.

Even with his new kinda (I wouldn't call it a rework); he hasn't seemed to draw much attention.

This is given that some Aatrox mains consider the update to be a failure for not addressing the main concerns/drawbacks that they saw with his current kit, and even say that they have made those drawbacks worse, and also the rest of the community still doesn't see Aatrox as much of anything to give a hoot about.

Well thankfully this is just a partial update and Riot plans to do more so worry not! At least not yet.

I'd like to hear the communities thoughts, because I want a discussion that can address facts on Aatrox's current position from what he was in the past, the viable changes that you could see, or think should be done in the future with his kit, and finally how he is fitting with his theme and what more work could be done to help him reach his final and greatest potential thematically and mechanically.

I don't expect this post to garner much attention as it is Aatrox, there probably isn't a more uninteresting champion in the game (even with his recent news and that says something). Hopefully the Aatrox main community hasn't given up on him because they are most likely his last hope.

Now to my uninformed opinion, Aatrox does not require a full rework, he needs and update. I don't think that his abilities in their most basic form are all that bad, they all have potential to be great.

UPDATE: VERY IMPORTANT!! Possibly the BEST thing that can be done for Aatrox is to attatch the strength of his dmg and healing to his current HP on some abilities like Warwick who is a healthy Drain Tank.

What do you guys think of his passive? I think that as it stands it still fills the theme he had previously. It still allows him to revive and he casts abilities to use it. I also like that he has to keep fighting to obtain the revive. But it has many inherent problems.

It is a BIG problem that he might not be able to revive even if his revive is off CD.

The way that new passive seems to work, is that it locks Aatrox into a monotone pattern, fight to end or lose. Is this what riot was going for? It seems that some find this playstyle constricting to say the least, coupled with the fact that you get NONE of the bonuses till the end of the stacks, apparently the kind of build up isn't fun even it works for a window of power, which to some seems too short. Some argue that Aatrox doesn't have the base resistances or HP pool to reliably trade like this all the time. More in-depth analysis of the passive in the comments below.

My question is, if it didn't work for Ryze, why do they think it will work for Aatrox? Do you think Riot will end up making Aatrox work kind of like a combo machine gun AA ability champ similar to Ryze?

Possible solutions 1.) Blood Rush should only activate if Aatrox has attacked an enemy or has been attacked at max Blood Well

2.)The Blood Well fills up based on how many enemy champs Aatrox has damaged.

  • Aatrox acquires stacks for every ability cast + 1 stack (or maybe 50% of a stack) for every champ damaged beyond the first one

    • a)In addition Aatrox should get cleave dmg on his AA somehow, whether it be every AA while Blood Rushing or just every 3rd AA while using Blood Price (which would be a nice little buff). Or maybe every 3rd AA while using Blood Price while Blood Rushing

  • give the whole sword a hitbox that way it damages all units on its way to the primary AA target

3.)After the initial activation of Blood Rush, Blood Well decreases at at DECREASING rate (also meaning that it should last longer 6-8 sec). Additionally, the Blood Well after a Blood Rush should only decreased down to a minimum of something like 1% of his max HP.

Lets have some consistency here Riot if Zac and Anivia can always have their revives then maybe so should Aatrox, sure make it an extremely low HP revive if the player doesn't meet ur requirements, but at least allow them to get the revive if its off CD. We get that both Zac an Anivia can be killed as trade offs during their revive process, but just because u can't damage Aatrox during his revive doesnt mean it should be harder to obtain the revive even when its off CD.

  • there could a several second window between the activation of Blood Rush and when Blood Well actually starts draining.

4.) Put the revive on shorter CD, or make Blood Rushing either

  • reduce the CD by x seconds each time its activated
  • reduce the CD of the revive by 1 sec for every 1 sec Aatrox is dealing damage while sec Blood Rush is active.
  • Or maybe the revive CD is reduced for 1 sec for every x damage Aatrox deals while in Blood Rush.

5.) A slight build up in AS for every x% of the Blood Well, but it could only reach a cap less than his full potential when not Blood Rushing (maybe about half). While Blood Rushing Aatrox gains the FULL AS % buff and in addition the AD buff. This makes it a bit easier for Aatrox to get his stacks a lil faster.

  • a)Or above 50% Blood Well capacity Aatrox starts gaining some passive Buffs

Players miss the build up and hate having no bonuses until the window of power which forces an all in all the time and makes Aatrox risky.

6.) Blood Well heals Aatrox based on the time spent Blood Rushing at the end of the duration

  • a)Or damage he dealt while he was Blood Rushing at the end of the duration *b)Or keep it at the flat 40% HP but increase it by 5% for every champ unit w/in a certain radius

7.) Revive HP percent definitely need to be way higher then 30% for the work he has to put in compared to Zac or Anivia, at least maxing at 50% health like Zac.

8.) Change the stack # to 4 instead of 5

9.) Change the way Blood Rushing works

  • When it fills entirely, the Well empties immediately giving him a new buff - Blood Rush. While under the effects of this buff, dealing or taking damage versus champions will refill the Blood Well for the damage dealt. After 4 sec of the buff being active the Blood Well will begin to deplete on its own at a constantly decreasing rate and damage taken and dealt will fill the Blood Well at a decreasing rate.

  • While Blood Rushing, Blood Well drops to x% (maybe 50, 75, or 100)and remains there for (say 4 sec) during this time Blood Well wouldn't do anything on its own. Instead Blood Well partially refills when Aatrox damages an enemy champ, and when and enemy champ damages Aatrox, the Blood Well would partially drain.

    • a)The refill or drain could be based on each instance of damage or a % of damage.
    • a)If Aatrox is slain he gains the revive for what is left in the Blood Well, if Aatrox lives Blood Well maintains what is left for
    • a)Or perhaps instead the duration is lengthened by a set amount when Aatrox attacks and decreased by a set amount when the enemy attacks

10.) change how Aatrox gains his stacks

  • Each ability eviscerates Aatrox's target(s) leaving a pool of blood for every champion/large monster struck in a random location within 300 units of the unit. If Aatrox walks over this pool of blood he will consume it filling his Blood Well by 20% and increase his AS by 10/15/20/25% for 2.5 sec. Blood Well doesn't drain on its own unless Aatrox activates Blood Rush at max stacks. If an enemy champ/ large monster walks over a blood pool they will destroy it. Blood pools last 6 sec. Once Aatrox fills his Blood Well 100%, after 3 sec or upon dealing damage to an enemy he will Gain Blood Rush for 5 sec. During Blood Rush Aatrox gains 20/30/40/50% bonus AS and 25% AD, every AA eviscerates enemy champions/large monsters. While Blood Rushing every time Aatrox consumes a Blood Pool the duration is refreshed. At the end of the duration Aatrox will maintain the current % of Blood Well for 5 sec before it drains on its own completely. During this time Aatrox cannot Blood Rush. Aatrox's abilities will automatically add Blood Pools to his Blood Well if their AoE's intersect. If Aatrox takes an instance of damage equal to x% of his max HP, while there's anything in his Blood Well at any time, he will lose 20% of it. If there is anything in the Blood Well at any time and Aatrox is slain he revives for a % of his health equal to 50% of Blood Wells current %. Reviving drains the Blood Well. Blood Thirst Every 3rd AA heals Aatrox for x% max HP and draws in Blood Pools within 250 units Blood Price Every 3rd AA deals bonus damage and eviscerates the unit if its a champion or large monster Blades of Torment Will leave 2 pools of blood for each target if the target(s) are hit by both skill shots

*Gaining a takedown on a unit will leave behind a large pool of blood, in the location they were slain.

10.) Make Aatrox gain a decaying shield for 30% of his health instead of being untargetable and increase the revive HP to 50%

Q I know what u guys are gonna say (if anyone comments at all it is Aatrox after all) It moves too slow and its interrupt-able so its garbage.

Solutions 1.) if they increased the range I think that making it slow and interruptable would be an acceptable trade off. Thoughts? I also think that they should give Q a health scaling to help him make better use of HP items he needs. (Do health scaling take into account shield HP?)

2.) Once in the Air until he reaches the ground again he should not be targetable. Meaning this: during Dark Flight's 0.6 second cast time (into the air) and 0.3 second wind-up (pause mid air) Aatrox should not be targetable, but during the 0.3 second wind-down, he should be.

  • a) if 0.9 sec of untargetability is too much and take up to much of the power budget then just make the "0.3 second wind-up (pause mid air)" untargetable. Let Aatrox players show off their skill, and don't punish the player for using the ability cause it has such long delay, that should be punishment enough.

3.)Upon cast Aatrox dashes into the air half-way towards the target location, and after a brief delay slams into the target area

4.) Aatrox dashes into the air over a target location. After a brief delay the ability can be cast again at a different target location causing Aatrox to slam into the ground.

5.) Casting makes Aatrox take flight for 1.5 seconds, becoming untargetable and gaining 25% movement speed while hovering towards enemy champions. Recasting while mid-air causes Aatrox slam down at a target location. If time runs out Aatrox will dash towards the nearest enemy champion.

6.) Anything related to activating his passive should reduce Q's CD.

W Removing the HP cost was gud but nerfing the dmg reverted what good the HP cost removal did. Personally I think they are trying to shift some power around the kit to make room for better stuff that we have yet to see.

Possible Solutions 1.) The first hit of BP could always trigger the effect, and BT should only heal when he has something in his Blood Well.

2.) BT should also heal for bonus at full Blood Well and while Blood Rushing, since BP is buffed while Blood Rushing, BT should be too.

  • a)Possibly increasing BT's heal for each stack could help a bit.

3.) change the scaling of his heal to TOTAL health + a % of missing health, that rewards players for building tanky MUCH, better, while still letting him be harder to kill the lower he is.

  • on top of the % max HP regen, on each 3rd AA Aatrox could heal for a % of the damage taken in the last x sec.

4.) Aatrox should get cleave dmg on his AA somehow, whether it be every AA while Blood Rushing or just every 3rd AA while using Blood Price (which would be a nice little buff). Or maybe every 3rd AA while using Blood Price while Blood Rushing

  • give the whole sword a hitbox that way it damages all units on its way to the primary AA target

5.) it seems like WW was in a similar spot to Aatrox in terms of his regen with AA's and Riot deemed that unhealthy for WW and changed it and WW has been in a better spot ever since. While below 50% maximum health, Aatrox's AA heal him for a smaller amount (than currently), with the healing tripled to while below 25% maximum health

6.) Change W slightly

When Aatrox toggles the ability for the next 3 sec he increases his AA range by 250. They blade will fly from his hands and attacks units on its own. Aatrox will maintain the ability to AA through any form of CC for the next 3 sec.

E I think that this ability would be fine despite its weird skillshot if they put a reward on it for hitting targets with the end of it like Nidalee. Thoughts?

Solution 1.) Places mark that reduces the targets Armor for a few sec if hit at the end of range (or with both Skillshots). This would be an incentive for Aatrox players to go in with some AA's after hitting the target rather than just staying back a poking. It also indirectly buffs any nearby allies, which feeds into his theme of being an inspiring warlord.

2.) Should also deal double dmg if target is hit by both projectiles, b/c COME ONE it takes skill to land that, REWARD skill pls Riot. or the slow is doubled if hit with both skillshots or the Blood Well fills up for 40% if the enemy champ is hit with both skill shots

3.) Update the Ability Aatrox AA's twice dealing damage in a cone while sending out the skillshots. While AAing Aatrox gains a spellshield in front of him. The Skillshot benefits from W's bonuses if the 1st or 2nd AA of E counts as W's 3rd.

R I think a major failing point for Aatrox is his Ult, it should feel big an impactful for players to activate but it really falls short on that excitement. I once read a Rioter's comment, that for a champ to be fun they need to have some sort of advantage other the enemy that the enemy doesn't also have access to, that kind of breaks the game a bit, while still being a bit fair and not TOO rage inducing for the enemy team. This is what they said in a sense. Aatrox doesn't really have that, and it comes from his lack of measuring up to his theme. I think an updated ult could be what saves Aatrox

I'd like to think of a healthy vision for Aatrox is somewhere between Nasus and Kled. He should the powerful Raid Boss that powers up his teammates, by raisng their moral when they are weak. Like his lore says he should be able to take a losing battle and make it possible for the team to win it. Right now his ult just doesn't cut it.

Just an idea that Riot will never look at for R, because its Aatrox R A.) If Blood Rush is activated during the ult it should remain active throughout the duration of the ult. Except if Aatrox dies.

1.) Upon casting Aatrox marks all allies within range granting them a small % of Lifesteal when they are below 30% health. A small % of damage dealt to enemies by all allies within range is stored as HP in a shield for Aatrox. Aatrox's shield HP drops off at a rate of X HP per sec. While his shield persists a 550 unit radius bubble AoE surrounds him. Within this AoE

  • a.) allies gain armor for 50% of the shields HP. or
  • b.) ALL damage taken by allies is stored and converted into DoT dealing a % of the stored damage = to Aatrox's missing HP %( taking into account the additional shield HP%) every sec. Stored damage is signified as a Gray section in the HP bar.

Allies can stand over slain marked enemies for 1 sec to send a huge chunk of HP to the shield. After the duration Aatrox permanently gains a percent of the shield's HP.

2.) Any enemies slain during Aatrox's ult leave behind a large pool of blood, standing within this pool will consume it granting the ally champ massive HP regen for a duration.

I think that this ult better reflects Aatrox's theme from what we know from his lore WITHOUT just giving everyone a dmg boost which a lame stat check

Lets talk more about mechanics and theme for Aatrox below

75 Comments

Shadowwalker9 votes

Being an aatrox main myself I am unsure what I feel about these updates. Its mostly been negative with our fellow aatrox mains out there, and so far they dont seem to care about the opinions of that community and just forcing him to what they want him to be. In particular his passive its a go balls deep or die kind of thing. I think TONS of people hate that passive to stack and get all your stats or have no bonuses. With this short blood rush I think it has hurt his trades. It is great they removed health costs and that's a good step. They did also changed his damage on his E to physical damage which kills the AP Aatrox section of the community. I find that sad even though I never play AP aatrox. I know he will get a complete overhaul later this year (so long), but they really didn't touch his Q other than remove health costs. I find it interesting they removed hp cost on blood price but it got nerfed anyway so what's the point? On top of that if he doesnt have reliable attack speed outside being item reliant its easy to trade with him. And if he didnt go balls deep into blood rush he is dead. His passive only being procked in blood rush, this forces the player to be aggressive which isnt always possible in all situations. I wish they'd buff his abilities a bit or change up the numbers for his new passive to last longer. Make the stats maybe build up to its full blood rush potential and not be this all or nothing kind of thing. I really wish they'd listen and take him further than what they've done to change it. So far I just see the Aatrox community overwhelmingly lashing out at these changes, I find it sad because its the last people who were passionate about this champion. The balance coordinator for Aatrox intended to make his dueling power better but I'm not quite sure he should let this out into live until he buffs something. I also wish he'd get a skin related to his warlord war god theme like seriously. I hope more people speak out about Aatrox cause it seems literally everyone is keeping quiet or the message isnt getting out there.

LordGeovanni2 votes

find it interesting they removed hp cost on blood price but it got nerfed anyway so what's the point?

this and the changes to his passive are the biggest nerfs. its not a buff if you take away what is good at the same time you take away what was bad (not that blood price health cost was bad it fit thematicly and was an interesting way of balanceing the character.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

this and the changes to his passive are the biggest nerfs. its not a buff if you take away what is good at the same time you take away what was bad (not that blood price health cost was bad it fit thematicly and was an interesting way of balanceing the character.

I have to ask, why do u think Aatrox as a "HP cost champion" fell into the kind of position he is in w/o any major changes from Riot (Looking at uMordekaiser ) I mean Vlad and Zac are doing gud (i think, educate me pls), and Dr. Mundo while outdate a bit seems to fine and looks like he might be in the tank update at least all those champs got attention from Riot.

So if u dont think that the health cost (slowly chipping at ur health, till u get got by the enemy and not being fun paraphrasing Riot) was such a bad fit balance-wise and thematic-wise, then why did Aatrox end up in this position. Riot seems like they think the HP cost coupled w/ few other things but mainly the HP cost was a reason for him being unfun.

Besides I could totally see "just switching the way he uses his blade" not costing him health, what I would have liked to see tho, was BP draining the targets health every 3rd attack and putting it in the Blood Well and BT draining the Blood Well to heal him. That makes the most sense to me. Also I could see flying as just a part of his normal biological abilities, no reason for that to cost HP. Only E makes sense to cost HP cause he sends out a wave of damaging energy, its the only ability where he sends energy from himself so it makes sense that it costs HP. And from a game play point, u dont want a character like him sitting back & poking anways so u wouldn't want incentivize him using that ability often.

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

I have to ask, why do u think Aatrox as a "HP cost champion" fell into the kind of position he is in w/o any major changes from Riot (Looking at uMordekaiser ) I mean Vlad and Zac are doing gud (i think, educate me pls), and Dr. Mundo while outdate a bit seems to fine and looks like he might be in the tank update at least all those champs got attention from Riot.

So if u dont think that the health cost (slowly chipping at ur health, till u get got by the enemy and not being fun paraphrasing Riot) was such a bad fit balance-wise and thematic-wise, then why did Aatrox end up in this position. Riot seems like they think the HP cost coupled w/ few other things but mainly the HP cost was a reason for him being unfun.

Besides I could totally see "just switching the way he uses his blade" not costing him health, what I would have liked to see tho, was BP draining the targets health every 3rd attack and putting it in the Blood Well and BT draining the Blood Well to heal him. That makes the most sense to me. Also I could see flying as just a part of his normal biological abilities, no reason for that to cost HP. Only E makes sense to cost HP cause he sends out a wave of damaging energy, its the only ability where he sends energy from himself so it makes sense that it costs HP. And from a game play point, u dont want a character like him sitting back & poking anways so u wouldn't want incentivize him using that ability often.

I definitely see your point with having him be a champion that is a fighter to incentivize him to not stay back and poke. They left some health cost on E that is fairly not that significant anyway but something to punish him for sitting back and poking. It's nice they made him do more toward is warlord theme, but I think he just needs buffs to the passive, and making it windowed to 100% blood well is way too short of time anything could happen on the edge of when it is about run out. You can sometimes think you have your blood well but then you dont. Zac and anivia currently still get their passive for not really doing anything. Even if they are vulnerable its just they have more confidence. Removing HP costs was great but it seems like you have to be precise or you'll die a whole lot. I have linked this post to the Aatrox mains page in hopes people will give this post some attention and collectively express their opinions instead of one by one trying to get in contact with riot or ricklesbrandon (the aatrox balancer) which literally does nothing. Aatrox mains page: https://www.reddit.com/r/AatroxMains/

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

It's nice they made him do more toward is warlord theme, but I think he just needs buffs to the passive, and making it windowed to 100% blood well is way too short of time anything could happen on the edge of when it is about run out. You can sometimes think you have your blood well but then you dont. Zac and anivia currently still get their passive for not really doing anything. Even if they are vulnerable its just they have more confidence. I have linked this post to the Aatrox mains page in hopes people will give this post some attention and collectively express their opinions instead of one by one trying to get in contact with riot or ricklesbrandon (the aatrox balancer) which literally does nothing. Aatrox mains page: https://www.reddit.com/r/AatroxMains/

Yeah it seems the fact that the window of power is too short is a problem for many. Sure theoretically it could last forever, but on its own it does run down VERY fast, maybe if it were more like 6-8 sec it would feel a bit better (i mean they gave pre-new-rework Ryze 5 sec to use his "window of power" and i'll say again if it didn't work on Ryze what is the reasoning that it will work on Aatrox)

What buffs to his passive do u think he needs to be more like a warlord?

Thanks for the link, ill check it out

LordGeovanni2 votes

riot seems to be nerfing fighters with attack speed in their kit and making them ineffiecnet (Warwick Aatrox ) at pushing towers they already have to build defense to take away from their power and more defense than i previous seasons relying more on item effects than ad now they cant even use their in kit attack speed to push towers. split pushing is already a bad strategy and this is another nerf to it.

LordGeovanni2 votes

the reason Aatrox wasnt able to be in a good spot is because he was changed by riot so long ago that apparently you either dont remember or dont know (season 3) and left there until date. Blood price's self damage didnt matter because of the damage that you did to the enemy by taking way both yes you lower the amout of damage Aatorx takes himself but you also lengthen the time that the enemy lives and blood price was easily over riden by one or 2 life steal items. The reason why it was bad before was because Aatrox himself had such a bad base health pool i also think that both his base armor and base magic resist were bad too. a champion like aatrox should never have to build more than 2 defensive items not counting boots. item 3748 and item 3071 being largely defensive and as much defensive as they are offensive which isnt much either but aatorx is seemingly being pushed into this juggarnaut build which is gimped as he already is is gonna get him nerfed even more. this is why they took away his attack speed scaleing and made it even slower for a titanic hydra build. Aatrox by design scales with both ad and attack speed (and health) but all the items with those on it were taken away because adcs were useing them. item 3156 zephyr item 3071 . he isnt hybrid any more so dont expect him to go item 3091 item 3124 . and not hybrid and has no mana so 1/3 of item 3078 is wasted not to mentioneven with cdr his cooldowns are too long to use spell blade.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

the reason Aatrox wasnt able to be in a good spot is because he was changed by riot so long ago that apparently you either dont remember or dont know (season 3) and left there until date. Blood price's self damage didnt matter because of the damage that you did to the enemy by taking way both yes you lower the amout of damage Aatorx takes himself but you also lengthen the time that the enemy lives and blood price was easily over riden by one or 2 life steal items. The reason why it was bad before was because Aatrox himself had such a bad base health pool i also think that both his base armor and base magic resist were bad too. a champion like aatrox should never have to build more than 2 defensive items not counting boots. item 3748 and item 3071 being largely defensive and as much defensive as they are offensive which isnt much either but aatorx is seemingly being pushed into this juggarnaut build which is gimped as he already is is gonna get him nerfed even more. this is why they took away his attack speed scaleing and made it even slower for a titanic hydra build. Aatrox by design scales with both ad and attack speed (and health) but all the items with those on it were taken away because adcs were useing them. item 3156 zephyr item 3071 . he isnt hybrid any more so dont expect him to go item 3091 item 3124 . and not hybrid and has no mana so 1/3 of item 3078 is wasted not to mentioneven with cdr his cooldowns are too long to use spell blade.

But it seems like an objective for Riot is getting Aatrox in a better place for item? Since now he only has to worry about AS, AD and HP it should be easier for him to get the items he need to be successful now right? But the problem was always his low resistances and HP compared to other top laners?

Riot always does this all the time, see a champ is strong so they nerf em to a ok spot, then they see other champs abusing the original champs main items so they nerf the items, then the original champ that was in a decent spot ends up in the garbage and they for get to revert their nerfs to him to put him back in a gud spot.

But u must be forged in fire to be stronger, hopefully by the end of the year we will see a stronger better Aatrox thats much cooler and better balanced with a unique and fun play style.

LordGeovanni1 votes

and you cant build hp without building mr and armor it just wont work.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

and you cant build hp without building mr and armor it just wont work.

U can get AD and HP, you can get AS and HP. And getting Armor isn't going to hurt him. What I think an Aatrox wants more is life steal and there AS/LS and AD/LS items. Any armor or magic resist wouldn't hurt Aatrox's build as Diver because it enhances his survivability (I couldn't see an Aatrox reaching max operating capacity without a Seraks Gage and some Life Steal items).

LordGeovanni1 votes

there are literally 3 items in the game that give ad and attack speed left and you cant build 2 of them because of wasted stats (i see the passive causes aatrox w not to work too if it happens on the phantom hit) item 3153 item 3124 item 3078 and neither give enough attack speed for aatrox item 3153 used to give enough attack speed but the ad was bad now its the other way around. hp attack speed items none. hp lifesteal items none. not to mention that your aatrox will pop before even entering a fight you cant rely on w to heal on minions when grouped but you still have to be in the front of the team to engage the fight.

W2001 votes

The last thing I want to see is a lack of freedom in the item build. I think instead of building both health and damage at the same time, the rework should focus on building one after the other. Having one will give a powerspike and getting both is another. There was never any intention as far as I can suspend my disbelief that Aatrox was designed around any of the juggernaut items. What a lot of people misinterpret is his original role, someone who could tank more damage than others because he healed it back short-term. The phrase Drain-Tank would mean he is anti DPS. He wins a fight by outlasting it.

Since his hard early nerfs there's no prevalence of that outside of 1v1 or 1v2 situations. Re-doing the kit with emphasis on utilizing the strengths of HP and AD with attack speed built in the proc blood rush is closer to his intended purpose. Of course getting fighter items that grant both AD and HP would have to be worse on him than straight up damage or toughness. Where a juggernaut buys both stats first Aatrox would need more time to ramp up.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

The last thing I want to see is a lack of freedom in the item build. I think instead of building both health and damage at the same time, the rework should focus on building one after the other. Having one will give a powerspike and getting both is another. There was never any intention as far as I can suspend my disbelief that Aatrox was designed around any of the juggernaut items.

What a lot of people misinterpret is his original role, someone who could tank more damage than others because he healed it back short-term. The phrase Drain-Tank would mean he is anti DPS. He wins a fight by outlasting it.

I REALLY like this identifying Aatrox's unique strengths and weakenesses and comparing and contrasting them with what others might confuse him to be to clear up any misconceptions this REALLy helps to define his them.

So basically Normal Tank/Juggernauts are great/better against Burst damage compared to Aatrox, but weaker against DPS compared to Aatrox. This is because Tanks/Juggernauts attack slowly (or have burst damage) and have a lot of UPFRONT defenses where as Aatrox attacks quickly and has more DPS but less burst damage, and compared to the tanks/juggernauts Aatrox's defenses are backloaded meaning while Tanks are harder to initially take out Aatrox is supposed to be hard to finally take out. (Did I get that right?)

Re-doing the kit with emphasis on utilizing the strengths of HP and AD with attack speed built in the proc blood rush is closer to his intended purpose. Of course getting fighter items that grant both AD and HP would have to be worse on him than straight up damage or toughness. Where a juggernaut buys both stats first Aatrox would need more time to ramp up.

agreed, Aatrox needs AS/AD life steal / HP regen more than toughness really

W2001 votes

I sort of see role confusion regarding Aatrox all the time, and Riot always responds with his role is unique he's going to be a drain-tank.

Yes, he does not have any defensive steroid because that's what his heal is for. It was not meant for staying in lane to splitpush. Aatrox's intended role is as you describe it.

My rework idea has the primary role of Controller. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Controller_champion) And the secondary role of Tank. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tank_champion)

A diver with disruption, taking damage and healing it away. What's most important regarding Aatrox's role is his core idea. There can be variations, sure, but his conception has little to do with how the game plays now. I think somehow the rework will make that core idea work.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I sort of see role confusion regarding Aatrox all the time, and Riot always responds with his role is unique he's going to be a drain-tank.

Yes, he does not have any defensive steroid because that's what his heal is for. It was not meant for staying in lane to splitpush. Aatrox's intended role is as you describe it.

My rework idea has the primary role of Controller. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Controller_champion) And the secondary role of Tank. (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Tank_champion)

A diver with disruption, taking damage and healing it away. What's most important regarding Aatrox's role is his core idea. There can be variations, sure, but his conception has little to do with how the game plays now. I think somehow the rework will make that core idea work.

I am not sure that classifying Aatrox as a Controllers or making him more geared toward being a Controllers is true to Aatrox's identity

"Controllers are defensive casters that oversee the battlefield by protecting and opening up opportunities for their allies."

Aatrox is offensive not defensive and he's not a caster. U could argue that overseeing the battle field is something that could be an avenue for Aatrox, but its more like he's in the thick of it, not outside looking in. Aatrox also doesn't protect anyone, he has them fight to protect themselves. But at least he does open up opportunities for allies...thats pretty much the only Controller thing he does.

Aatrox is a Diver, Fighter and Non-Conventional Tank, maybe with a slight lean towards being a Non-Conventional Vangaurd tank.

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

this and the changes to his passive are the biggest nerfs. its not a buff if you take away what is good at the same time you take away what was bad (not that blood price health cost was bad it fit thematicly and was an interesting way of balanceing the character.

Definitely. They need a lot of efforts on this passive for building stats as it goes or doing something that helps him as he progresses with building the well. I don't see blood price as much as useful other than just toggling it on after you get bork with this rework just because it does a little extra damage. It's nothing to even fear for the enemy though and that's what he lacks in comparison to what his theme sports.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

They need a lot of efforts on this passive for building stats as it goes or doing something that helps him as he progresses with building the well.

So perhaps what would be best is a slight build up in AS for every x% of the Blood Well, but it could only reach like a max less than his full potential (maybe about half). then while Aatrox is Blood Rushing he gains the FULL AS % buff and in addition the AD buff.

Can u elaborate on this specific point?

{quoted}

it's nothing to even fear for the enemy though and that's what he lacks in comparison to what his theme sports.

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

So perhaps what would be best is a slight build up in AS for every x% of the Blood Well, but it could only reach like a max less than his full potential (maybe about half). then while Aatrox is Blood Rushing he gains the FULL AS % buff and in addition the AD buff.

Can u elaborate on this specific point?

His theme is a scary warlord who turns the tide and what not and he is supposed to be a feared menace. His lines can at times revolve around him talking to his sword that "they will fear us". But of course that is just not the case even after these changes I don't think anyone is scared of seeing Aatrox coming to lane or have a reason to run from him.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Being an aatrox main myself I am unsure what I feel about these updates. Its mostly been negative with our fellow aatrox mains out there, and so far they dont seem to care about the opinions of that community and just forcing him to what they want him to be. In particular his passive its a go balls deep or die kind of thing. I think TONS of people hate that passive to stack and get all your stats or have no bonuses. With this short blood rush I think it has hurt his trades. It is great they removed health costs and that's a good step. They did also changed his damage on his E to physical damage which kills the AP Aatrox section of the community. I find that sad even though I never play AP aatrox. I know he will get a complete overhaul later this year (so long), but they really didn't touch his Q other than remove health costs. I find it interesting they removed hp cost on blood price but it got nerfed anyway so what's the point? On top of that if he doesnt have reliable attack speed outside being item reliant its easy to trade with him. And if he didnt go balls deep into blood rush he is dead. His passive only being procked in blood rush, this forces the player to be aggressive which isnt always possible in all situations. I wish they'd buff his abilities a bit or change up the numbers for his new passive to last longer. Make the stats maybe build up to its full blood rush potential and not be this all or nothing kind of thing. I really wish they'd listen and take him further than what they've done to change it. So far I just see the Aatrox community overwhelmingly lashing out at these changes, I find it sad because its the last people who were passionate about this champion. The balance coordinator for Aatrox intended to make his dueling power better but I'm not quite sure he should let this out into live until he buffs something. I also wish he'd get a skin related to his warlord war god theme like seriously. I hope more people speak out about Aatrox cause it seems literally everyone is keeping quiet or the message isnt getting out there.

Ok so what u think Aatrox needs in terms of his passive is more ways to play around with it besides diving and fighting it out? I can see that is a gud point, because this new passive does force him into that type of play style; one could say its quite singular or straight forward, and I am not sure if thats what Riot wanted for their champs...I was under the impression that they wanted their champs to be more than one dimensional especially with what I have heard with recent news on the tank updates. I guess for them Aatrox has an identity crisis and they don't know what they want him to do.

To my understanding one of the problems that they were trying to fix with the old Aatrox Passive was the fact that either u were fighting and building up the Blood Well, or you were losing it while u did nothing and it would often be gone before you could get into a fight again.

I guess they thought that, with it balanced that way, it didn't feel gud and it wasn't fun (In this sense I also understand why the last iteration of Ryze with his stacking spell casts didn't work out either, it goes to show that passives like these don't seem to pan out well). So they tried to fix it by making more like Rengars Passive, where u really didn't have to worry about it running out because it does so instantly, besides you only need it to be up while ur fighting anyways.

So maybe the solution is to make it work more like Rumble where above 50% Blood Well capacity you start to see some passive Buffs and at 100% u get the revive. But i could definitely see how a gradual build up of passive buffs could work. But should the revive only be @ 100%, or does it go back to working similar to the old revive.

I also agree that the health cost removal on most of the abilities was a gud idea.

I must ask is the removal of AP Aatrox really that bad? Sure i could definitely see him having split scaling on E/R being nice, but as an AA champion w/ 2 abilities scaling AD, i could see that Riot though that having abilities with diff scaling posed a difficult choice for players with their builds when old and new Aatrox kinda needs HP, AD and AP to be successful. If u take away AP, then he can just focus on AD and HP or Armor. I dont think that its the worse thing to worry about.

Honesty a skin is the last thing i think anyone should be worried about, lets get him in a gud position first.

and thanks for commenting for ur opinion and info

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

Ok so what u think Aatrox needs in terms of his passive is more ways to play around with it besides diving and fighting it out? I can see that is a gud point, because this new passive does force him into that type of play style; one could say its quite singular or straight forward, and I am not sure if thats what Riot wanted for their champs...I was under the impression that they wanted their champs to be more than one dimensional especially with what I have heard with recent news on the tank updates. I guess for them Aatrox has an identity crisis and they don't know what they want him to do.

To my understanding one of the problems that they were trying to fix with the old Aatrox Passive was the fact that either u were fighting and building up the Blood Well, or you were losing it while u did nothing and it would often be gone before you could get into a fight again.

I guess they thought that, with it balanced that way, it didn't feel gud and it wasn't fun (In this sense I also understand why the last iteration of Ryze with his stacking spell casts didn't work out either, it goes to show that passives like these don't seem to pan out well). So they tried to fix it by making more like Rengars Passive, where u really didn't have to worry about it running out because it does so instantly, besides you only need it to be up while ur fighting anyways.

So maybe the solution is to make it work more like Rumble where above 50% Blood Well capacity you start to see some passive Buffs and at 100% u get the revive. But i could definitely see how a gradual build up of passive buffs could work. But should the revive only be @ 100%, or does it go back to working similar to the old revive.

I also agree that the health cost removal on most of the abilities was a gud idea.

I must ask is the removal of AP Aatrox really that bad? Sure i could definitely see him having split scaling on E/R being nice, but as an AA champion w/ 2 abilities scaling AD, i could see that Riot though that having abilities with diff scaling posed a difficult choice for players with their builds when old and new Aatrox kinda needs HP, AD and AP to be successful. If u take away AP, then he can just focus on AD and HP or Armor. I dont think that its the worse thing to worry about.

Honesty a skin is the last thing i think anyone should be worried about, lets get him in a gud position first.

and thanks for commenting for ur opinion and info

I personally don't think AP Aatrox being taken out with his E change was a big deal and it focuses it more to his main AD auto attack style rather than an off meta build. But I was just mentioning it kills off that section of the Aatrox community who enjoyed that. I don't think the passive should be only procking while blood rush is there because he only seems effective in that little window and absolutely anything can happen after that window and if he can't hit anything or get hit (not the greatest alternative) he loses the ability to revive even if it is off cool down. This is what angers a lot of people. summoner 14

W2001 votes

I find that the mini-update awoke a silent majority, and after collaborating with current or former Aatrox mains I've compiled a list of ideas/mechanics for the future rework that would be most fitting to the character. Every rework should expand on what a character was made to be, and have abilities that reflect the base idea of his character or the expanded concept of each item build/playstyle. Ex. Old Warwick was implied to be a manhunter but never recieved more than a single lackluster ability and a mention in the lore. New Warwick feels like playing a horror movie monster and has a focus in his lore focusing on tracking down chem barons.

The numbers are all fairly low because of precautions Riot takes when applying change to a kit. It's probably best that he doesn't come out too strong instead of too weak because he's in need of changes that make him less flawed and one-note in the future of the game. The changes can always be revoked but the idea behind them remains, a procced buff to nudge Aatrox into the fight.

If it makes you feel better I'm revising enough ideas and concepts to make a difference against destructive criticism. Anybody with a couple hundred thousand or more mastery points on Aatrox is who me and my friends listen to. There's always former and current mains of Aatrox that are great people.

Shadowwalker3 votes

ALSO what I absolutely hate is how jungle Aatrox is now weaker. He can't solo dragon anymore early cause you don't get the reliable attack speed buffs. And most of the time you wont gank with much blood well up. Because you have to have built it up beforehand and it's so damn short that by the time you get to lane you have an incomplete blood well. Maybe when you pull off the full combo he will get the full blood rush but is that always reliable with an ability like his Q? I'd have to say no on that one.

W2001 votes

I'm always considerate of how people play Aatrox and in what roles, there's several things the mini-update fell flat in trying to do. I'd like your opinion on certain mechanics like blood pools, the heal being based on damage taken, blood rush lasting longer/refilling on monster kills, and giving Aatrox more utility like a knockback or dash. Keep in mind all these mechanics would play off each other to balance how good his laning and jungling are comparatively.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I'm always considerate of how people play Aatrox and in what roles, there's several things the mini-update fell flat in trying to do. I'd like your opinion on certain mechanics like blood pools, the heal being based on damage taken, blood rush lasting longer/refilling on monster kills, and giving Aatrox more utility like a knockback or dash. Keep in mind all these mechanics would play off each other to balance how good his laning and jungling are comparatively.

are u responding to me or someone else?

I think the "blood pools" are a critical thematic and mechanic addition that enhances Aatrox's own game play and counter play in a healthy way while giving him some buffs if he plays his cards right. Its a passive that he DOESNT have to kind of fight in order to get what he wants but he works it it, there are rewards for each stage of the build up and there are opportunities for him or the opponent to outplay each other as Aatrox attempts to build his resources.

I think that the "heal being based on damage taken" is great for Aatrox playing different roles in a healthy as well as a thematic match.

"blood rush lasting longer/refilling on monster kills," This I am unsure about, because Blood Rush refreshes its duration on each AA for champions, but I can see that JG monsters and enemy champs are very different so I think its ok.

"and giving Aatrox more utility like a knockback or dash" These I think I am against, not because I dont like them but because Riot will make the rest of the kit pay for adding more mobility or more CC. If any I think only one of the two could be picked, b/c if both were then the kit would have to be balanced to be weaker for the added stuff. the original Q already gives a dash and a knock up (and E has a slow). I am pretty sure that only one champion has 2 different dash abilities I dont think Aatrox would be one to get two dashes, getting kited is supposed to be one of his weaknesses he's not supposed to be very mobile. I also feel that a knock back wouldn't be good for a champ that needs to maximize DPS and AA's to do his best.

U didn't like any of my "impale" suggestions?

W2001 votes

I try for a separate opinion often, with my friends the discussion is been there done that. I'm asking these questions in other places but posted here to get a reply from say shadowwalker225.

Blood pools are likely what makes or breaks his laning phase, instead of being about poking it's about the blood pools and taking poke. There's about as much counterplay as you could get when the champion your against requires a filled resource that you can stop from building.

Blood Rush is very unsatisfying in practice. The hard nerf as it was, is instead of a good passive amount of attack speed... We get Blood Rush which gives the same attack speed for... four seconds. It hit Aatrox's jungle clear hard, and it hits even harder when realized Blood Rush does not last any longer than four seconds against monsters no matter what. To keep the clear up to speed the proc needs to last longer and get a reset so at the very least the proc can bridge the gap between one camp to the next. The old bloodwell's passive attack speed started draining when switching to the other side of the jungle without clearing, the least blood rush should be able to do is keep the attack speed from the death of one camp to the next. Around level 6 blood rush should be easy to maintain and always have the buff up clearing jungle.

At least the utility in his kit would give him teamfight prowess. That and him becoming the most role-versatile champion. He's always a fighter, and a diver, wherever he may go. The useful tools in his current state for diving and teamfighting are as follows: Dark Flight. Blood Rush. There's good 1v1 abilities like Massacre, Blades of Torment. Things Aatrox can do while auto attacking are limited, leave no impact, unsatisfying, and blood rush doesn't make it feel any better. I know a compromise would have to be made, no champion gets a lot of utility with compensation for doing anything other than support. I know you don't like gimping Aatrox and I know there are people completely opposed to a support Aatrox. There is no right answer. Not yet at least. There was a lot of brainstorming to come up with an E that wasn't poke. It couldn't be poke. If I haven't yet convinced you about that, think of Trydnamere with a wave-clear poke tool. Or Xin Zhao with a pantheon style spear throw.

The impale suggestion went over my head, I imagined it'd be like a Jarvan W without flags. Until now I basically didn't think about it. Now that I have I don't know if that's healthy or cohesively a good idea because of how it'd work in lane and in a fight. If it was intended to combo with the knockback, that's on the other side of the abilities. Could be the most clunky combo to pull off.

It's also exactly what Leona's E does but with a slow instead of a root. Leona

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I try for a separate opinion often, with my friends the discussion is been there done that. I'm asking these questions in other places but posted here to get a reply from say shadowwalker225.

Blood pools are likely what makes or breaks his laning phase, instead of being about poking it's about the blood pools and taking poke. There's about as much counterplay as you could get when the champion your against requires a filled resource that you can stop from building.

So u think its a gud idea or a bad idea?

Blood Rush is very unsatisfying in practice. The hard nerf as it was, is instead of a good passive amount of attack speed... We get Blood Rush which gives the same attack speed for... four seconds.

So then the idea I had that taking in a Blood Pool increases his AS for 2.5 would be good right? It kind gives that "rotate through ur casts and AA's" idea vibr right, i though that was gud for gameplay.

It hit Aatrox's jungle clear hard, and it hits even harder when realized Blood Rush does not last any longer than four seconds against monsters no matter what. To keep the clear up to speed the proc needs to last longer and get a reset so at the very least the proc can bridge the gap between one camp to the next. The old bloodwell's passive attack speed started draining when switching to the other side of the jungle without clearing, the least blood rush should be able to do is keep the attack speed from the death of one camp to the next. Around level 6 blood rush should be easy to maintain and always have the buff up clearing jungle.

Ok I see ur point slaying a monster in a camp should reset the timer.

At least the utility in his kit would give him teamfight prowess. That and him becoming the most role-versatile champion. He's always a fighter, and a diver, wherever he may go. The useful tools in his current state for diving and teamfighting are as follows: Dark Flight. Blood Rush. There's good 1v1 abilities like Massacre, Blades of Torment. Things Aatrox can do while auto attacking are limited, leave no impact, unsatisfying, and blood rush doesn't make it feel any better. I know a compromise would have to be made, no champion gets a lot of utility with compensation for doing anything other than support. I know you don't like gimping Aatrox and I know there are people completely opposed to a support Aatrox. There is no right answer. Not yet at least. There was a lot of brainstorming to come up with an E that wasn't poke. It couldn't be poke. If I haven't yet convinced you about that, think of Trydnamere with a wave-clear poke tool. Or Xin Zhao with a pantheon style spear throw.

I am not against giving Aatrox utility. Its just how u go about giving Aatrox the utility and how it interacts with the rest of the team. U can't give off the impression that Aatrox is "protecting his allies on his own." Im not against Aatrox giving utility to other champs in some sort of way, but it can't seem like a traditional support in any way because to Aatrox players thats just not Aatrox to them. If anything I feel like Aatrox could have the utility that in the end could do the exact same thing as the supports utility does; but unlike normal support utility where it takes effect immediately on the ally, Aatrox's should probably only activate when the ally takes the action that he wants them to take, because that is more reminiscent of his theme. Either that or have Aatrox directly debuff enemies that by extension indirectly buffs allies (what did u think about my Impale mechanic ideas, i could see those going on Blades of Torment or Slaughter (but i dont think Aatrox can get another dash)). I can see Aatrox being Aatrox with and the E being poke.

The impale suggestion went over my head

Ok I made a few impale suggestions, which one went over your head?

I imagined it'd be like a Jarvan W without flags. Until now I basically didn't think about it. Now that I have I don't know if that's healthy or cohesively a good idea because of how it'd work in lane and in a fight. If it was intended to combo with the knockback, that's on the other side of the abilities. Could be the most clunky combo to pull off.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

So glad theres still a few people that care, at first i didn't think writing about this mattered but I am glad that it does, lets keep the discussion going.

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

So glad theres still a few people that care, at first i didn't think writing about this mattered but I am glad that it does, lets keep the discussion going.

I honestly tried starting multiple discussions on Aatrox I got one reply and one of them was just complaining about my paragraphs. So I can see people just literally don't give a shit about Aatrox. He has such potential to be a menace on the riot just hasn't put enough effort there and are pushing his update to later this year.

Shadowwalker2 votes

{quoted}

I honestly tried starting multiple discussions on Aatrox I got one reply and one of them was just complaining about my paragraphs. So I can see people just literally don't give a shit about Aatrox. He has such potential to be a menace on the riot just hasn't put enough effort there and are pushing his update to later this year.

This post if you look at it has gotten over 100 views its just people don't seem to care enough about Aatrox to even respond or put their input on the champion even if it isn't negative.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

I think the best thing for Aatrox right now is to fix his passive, if the last passive had inherent problems this new is about the same, I can't tell if its better or worse, but its still a step. In terms of his passive it needs to be balanced more around Aatrox trying to obtain the active and the enemy trying to deny it, both sides need fair advantages and disadvantages. The best course seems to be a Reverse Zac passive

Passive: Blood Well

Each ability eviscerates Aatrox's target(s) leaving a pool of blood for every champion/large monster struck in a random location within 300 units of the champion. If Aatrox walks over this pool of blood he will consume it filling his Blood Well by 20% and increase his AS by 10/15/20/25% for 2.5 sec. Blood Well doesn't drain on its own unless Aatrox activates Blood Rush at max stacks. If an enemy champ/ large monster walks over a blood pool they will destroy it. Blood pools last 6 sec. Once Aatrox fills his Blood Well 100%, after 3 sec or upon dealing damage to an enemy he will Gain Blood Rush for 5 sec. During Blood Rush Aatrox gains 20/30/40/50% bonus AS and 25% AD, every AA eviscerates enemy champions/large monsters. While Blood Rushing every time Aatrox consumes a Blood Pool the duration is refreshed. At the end of the duration Aatrox will maintain the current % of Blood Well for 5 sec before it drains on its own completely. During this time Aatrox cannot Blood Rush. Aatrox's abilities will automatically add Blood Pools to his Blood Well if their AoE's intersect. If Aatrox takes an instance of damage equal to x% of his max HP, while there's anything in his Blood Well at any time, he will lose 20% of it.

If there is anything in the Blood Well at any time and Aatrox is slain he revives for a % of his health equal to 50% of Blood Wells current %. Reviving drains the Blood Well.

Blood Thirst Every 3rd AA heals Aatrox for x% max HP and draws in Blood Pools within 250 units

Blood Price Every 3rd AA deals bonus damage and eviscerates the unit if its a champion or large monster

W2001 votes

I love the reference to the sword taking in blood, and the encouragement of playing him jungle is equal to the lane with the evisceration system. I'm not sure his abilities should cost blood pools though, it'd be too restricting.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Post I made on Riots Aatrox post. Posting it here to keep everything together

It's good that some steps are being taken to fix some of Aatrox's old problems. It seems like a lot of his problems are mainly stemming from his passive and I can see why. It functions as window of power making him stronger when he has it filled up and it also grants him access to a revive.

Additionally unlike other revives, once Aatrox is "killed" you cannot stop him from coming back. Other champions have clear counter play that balances out their revive. Aatrox doesn't and because of this in addition to his passive's buff that make his Passive MUCH stronger. Because his Passive is taking up so much of his power budget it seems that in order for and attempt to balance him out to be made, two things have been done.

1st the rest of kit is sub optimal and second the difficulty to achieve the revive has been increased. This it seem is what has been done to balance out what appears to be a very OP passive for what it brings to the table compared to others. Its a problem that Aatrox gets stronger AND gets a revive while using the passive. Its hard to balance having both.

While it seems this is a step towards making a better more balanced Aatrox, it has introduced more problems. The old passive had inherent problems that have already been explained by Riot, but so does this new passive. And I am not talking about from the point of view of the Aatrox player. I am talking about the interaction between Aatrox and the enemy.

For enemies its basically "dont let Aatrox get to use his passive"...Because right now he just uses his abilities then gets Blood Rush. For an enemy their options are avoid getting damaged or damaging Aatrox which means running away. Because either Aatrox beats u or u beat Aatrox and he just comes back to run away or finish u off. Its really a lose-lose scenario for the enemy. And if they don't force him to use his revive it'll always be a threat. Without his revive, whats even the point of an Aatrox player going Blood Rush anymore? Its so hard to build up and then maintain that the Aatrox player is better off avoiding a fight until the revive is back.

...is this healthy for game play? It basically means that each time Aatrox Blood Rushes he get stronger, but b/c it also means he gets a revive that seems to encourage enemies to just avoid interacting with him since it means that they will help him keep his passive up. Or they will wait for the 4 sec to be over then go in for the kill. Which means Aatrox's chance to show off that strength just ran out.

I really think that the way Blood Well either builds up or declines needs to be thought over and redone, because as it is now it's inherent problems seems to put it into a dead end with no solutions.

Perhaps enemy damage shouldn't refresh Blood Well's duration, because that seems SUPER counter intuitive. It leaves the enemy with really only one choice RUN, otherwise they run the risk of dying or helping Aatrox keep his passive up. Shouldn't the enemy get a chance to counteract Aatrox's passive rather than trying to find a way to deal with it after Aatrox is ready to use it?

It makes sense that enemies would want to stop him from using his passive. Because the passive gives Aatrox two advantages the counter play must be balanced and FAIR to both players.

Currently Aatrox gains 20% of Blood Well on each ability whether he has successfully used it on an enemy champ/ large monster or not (correct me if I am wrong). This was done I suppose in order to pay homage to the original Blood Well, but here's the problem. There was a HP cost for filling the Blood Well in the past and that created an advantage that the enemy could take advantage of, that's gone now. If anything this adds power to the new passive not balance it out. So obviously this is why it lasts so short now and doesn't come with an AS build up. Aatrox pays nothing for the 20% blood well and the interaction between Aatrox and his target suffers for that. Aatrox directly suffers because his passive takes away power from the rest of his kit like this.

If there is going to be any power added into the passive and the rest of Aatrox's kit there needs to be a way for enemies to also play around the passive and negate Aatrox. If Anivia and Zac are balanced with their passives be negate-able after "death" then Aatrox needs to be similar. I belive this is the path to a healthied easier 2 balance Aatrox

Either Aatrox loses his invulnerability while reviving (likely a BIG no-no for the Aatrox players) or you front load the counterplay. Find a fair way for enemy players to stop Aatrox from 1 activating Blood Rush, and/or 2 for enemies to decrease the effectiveness of Blood Rush while its active. It could be a minigame/ outplay potential/ bout of strength any combination of the three, it doesn't matter what needs to be there is counter play.

This adds 2 benefits for Aatrox 1st and the best is more interaction between players, second it brings more balances and counterplay to Aatrox's strength, which means more power can be put back into Aatrox's kit (within reason).

How should this be done? I have numerous suggestions if anyone is willing to read more at a later time if anyone still cares enough to ask.

Honestly I think the basic Abilities themselves are pretty much fine in their basic ideas. Its just that the passive for ALL that it does without having any proper interactive counter play sucks up all the potential that his basic abilities could have. NOT the mention the ult which is SUPER lack luster, but I dont blame anyone, that passive is like a weed; nothing can grow with its roots set in so deeply, if it isn't changed it will sap Aatrox of all chances of growth.

W2001 votes

I believe the change for turning the passive into a proc was intended so that there was counterplay, a step in the right direction. But every basic ability Aatrox has is old.

The Q was intended to be best used to dodge a skillshot and then knock up a target, half of the time neither happens. It's too slow, like ZAC but worse.

The healing W is a good example of how Aatrox is unhealthy, it used to scale with AD and the healing went from amazing to horrible over the champions lifespan. Good for jungle sustain, but better in lane.

And the E, by far the worst. It's good in three situations: Spam poking farm and a champion in a lane, slowing champions that are chasing you, and slowing champions running from or on top of you. It's boring, got a thin hitbox, and has nearly no use in a teamfight.

The ultimate is not something a tanky champion would have, it's an attack speed steroid that nukes everyone nearby. But without AD or AP it falls just as short as you say, even an increased attack range doesn't stop massive kiting.

With new abilities he could be a lategame champion that would win teamfights by outlasting them, buffing an adc or melee carry alongside them would help. The passive is destructive and somehow more controversial than Trydnamere's ult because you get it at level 1, it's not fair when fed and it's just alright when not. I'd like to see further counterplay to bloodrush because I would've kept it, just have it charge slowly (but consistently) and last longer. Maybe it could have something to do with crowd controlling the blood rush away. What do you think about having it diminish when CC'd?

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I believe the change for turning the passive into a proc was intended so that there was counterplay, a step in the right direction. But every basic ability Aatrox has is old.

Thank you very much for your input

Honestly I dont think its enough "counter play". Having Aatrox have to stack up his passive is just a balance measure a gate mechanism if u will against the strength his passive offers.

U should tell me what u think counter play is. For me its what allows an enemy to negate your champ an advantage they would normally get unless of course the enemy took an action that countered your champs play style (take Poppy's or Zac's passive into consideration). With the way Aatrox's passive is currently set up all it does it make it harder, longer (and some would say more frustrating) for Aatrox to achieve his passive and his buffs.

On to the abilities I would say they mostly just need updating

Q Yes I would agree especially since Aatrox can still be hit by skill shots while way up in the air. I am going to add some more change ideas to the Q so tell me what u think.

W I'm under the impression that Riot thinks its bad for game health for a champion to gain resistances/health from building damage, its not really fair to the enemy that a champion could cover two opposing benefits with 1 item, especially when some items will already give health and AD on their own. I think thats why they switched the scaling to 5% health, because it will also allow Aatrox to build a bit tanky w/o feeling bad for doing so.

E can also be used to help u land your Q. It also reduces kiting potential so you can keep AA'ing. It has 2 skill shots that converge which makes it good for jg clearing camps with numerous monsters (especially the Raptors since the big one most sits in the back). And I think its good that Aatrox can have a bit of poke in lane. Also u must remember not every ability in a champs kit has to be the MOST exciting, if it serves a purpose that assists the rest of the kit, while remaining true to the theme of the character. I'd like to hear ur thought on my E suggestions tho.

The ultimate: it's an attack speed steroid that nukes everyone nearby... thats all it is and thats what I am saying is a problem its a huge missed chance for Riot to do something thematic.

"With new abilities he could be a lategame champion that would win teamfights by outlasting them,"

agreed

"buffing an adc or melee carry alongside them would help."

this is controversial depending on how its done, some people who play Aatrox FLAT OUT reject any idea that Aatrox would assist allies in anyway.

"I'd like to see further counterplay to bloodrush"

agreed

"Maybe it could have something to do with crowd controlling the blood rush away. What do you think about having it diminish when CC'd?

I think diminishing his Blood Well with CC is a bad idea b/c CC is already a strong counter against Aatrox. Both old and new Aatrox needs to be AA'ing or using abilities to fill the Blood Well, and CC stops that and allows enemies to kite him to he can't do it anymore. CC'ing him is already a big disadvantage for him w/o it directly effecting his Blood Well, b/c it already effects the Blood Well indirectly

W2001 votes

Counterplay to Aatrox already exists, and it's a hard counter.

item 3143 item 3110 item 3033 item 3165

I'd think these items still dumpster Aatrox after a reworking of his abilities.

Maybe the only way a support ability can be put on him, of which would make his teamfighting a lot better, is to make sure it either does damage or passively does something. I'm still in thought about blood pools and how they would give an advantage to the team. It'd be well, very different than what a traditional support or team player would do. But I would also love to see Aatrox drawing in blood pools and leaving something behind for teammates to follow. The counterplay to it could be the blood has a health bar or can get stepped on by the other team, something that matters in a teamfight and makes Aatrox a threat.

And the W granting two stat benefits, yeah there's value to that. Many valuable abilities or champions that artificially increase gold are being reworked. An example of how extreme the W could go is Dr. Mundo. He triple dips his gold by only buying health to get bigger, more damage, and more regeneration. I think that the silver lining is that if neither one is better than the other and can't do much without other abilities, there's a solid powerspike for buying one very damaging item and then a very tanky item. Either one can come first and presents better use of one style of play. Being a jack-of-all-trades early in the game should be minimized, Aatrox's best hope is as a specialized late-game teamfight carry picked in solo-queue to show flashy plays and chosen in ranked or competitive as a good pick in teamfight oriented compositions.

The E, the poke and jungle clear and setup ability, is old. Riot doesn't want his lane to be press E to win. At least that's what they say, I think it doesn't feel satisfying outside of chase. Instead of Aatrox jogging at someone who got hit by the... magic? Sword? It'd be more fantastic as anything else. A gap-closer or movement speed buff serves it's chase purposes, but a jungle clear or lane focused ability should look like and AOE slice. If I had less room in my idea of a rework the E would be the sword slash knockback. Alternatively it could be a vertical swing that reached further and slowed. Both versions could help jungle clear but only the alternative is meant for any kind of poke. The way I play Aatrox is get an enemy to half health with blood price, then Q blood price. I use the E to slow or build passive - never as any good poke. People who have a million mastery points or higher tell me E is the best ability to level first. I find it as unsatisfying as Miss Fortune's -Make it Rain-. It's outdated ability setup. Something like Trundle's E could stand the test of time but not this AOE slow snorefest. I am very biased about this ability.

Back to the counterplay, you can prevent him from stacking a passive by seeing the bar and taking that opportunity to all in or get a gank. It needs experimentation to see if it works as enough to stop a faster curve into the late game. The bar should build slow enough to get something done about Aatrox and the result of not stopping that bar should be a more devastating buff. It's like letting Nasus get Q stacks, it should feel rewarding to stop and be a more difficult situation when left unchecked. Aatrox as a solo laner should be easy to counter, like how he was for a long time. But Aatrox in other lanes or the jungle would be dependent on map control. The less towers his team has on you, the easier it is to ward up and see him coming. If an Aatrox is spotted on the map without blood rush at the ready he's vulnerable.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Counterplay to Aatrox already exists, and it's a hard counter.

item 3143 item 3110 item 3033 item 3165

I'd think these items still dumpster Aatrox after a reworking of his abilities.

Counter play should not be limited to buying an item to negate a champions kit, while its a viable stratgy that shouldn't be all u need to counter a champion, sure they could offer advantages or create disadvantages for the enemy. But for REAL counter play, it shuld be based more decisions made in the thick of the moment of battle.

Maybe the only way a support ability can be put on him, of which would make his teamfighting a lot better, is to make sure it either does damage or passively does something.

It can't do damage b/c then they would have to nerf him for that. Also damage buffs are lame stat checks and Riot will never do them again. Think of it like a aura thing, and Riot is kinda dispositioned to think that there are better alternatives. If Aatrox gives anything to an ally it should only be activated by the ally taking some sort of action against the enemy, it can be passive, but that passive should only activate when that ally takes and action against the enemy.

I'm still in thought about blood pools and how they would give an advantage to the team. It'd be well, very different than what a traditional support or team player would do. But I would also love to see Aatrox drawing in blood pools and leaving something behind for teammates to follow. The counterplay to it could be the blood has a health bar or can get stepped on by the other team, something that matters in a teamfight and makes Aatrox a threat.

either it gets stepped on, or the enemy has to stand on it for a sec to destroy it, doesnt make sense for a pool of blood to be target-able

And the W granting two stat benefits, yeah there's value to that. Many valuable abilities or champions that artificially increase gold are being reworked. An example of how extreme the W could go is Dr. Mundo. He triple dips his gold by only buying health to get bigger, more damage, and more regeneration. I think that the silver lining is that if neither one is better than the other and can't do much without other abilities, there's a solid powerspike for buying one very damaging item and then a very tanky item. Either one can come first and presents better use of one style of play. Being a jack-of-all-trades early in the game should be minimized, Aatrox's best hope is as a specialized late-game teamfight carry picked in solo-queue to show flashy plays and chosen in ranked or competitive as a good pick in teamfight oriented compositions.

The E, the poke and jungle clear and setup ability, is old. Riot doesn't want his lane to be press E to win. At least that's what they say, I think it doesn't feel satisfying outside of chase. Instead of Aatrox jogging at someone who got hit by the... magic? Sword? It'd be more fantastic as anything else. A gap-closer or movement speed buff serves it's chase purposes, but a jungle clear or lane focused ability should look like and AOE slice. If I had less room in my idea of a rework the E would be the sword slash knockback. Alternatively it could be a vertical swing that reached further and slowed. Both versions could help jungle clear but only the alternative is meant for any kind of poke. The way I play Aatrox is get an enemy to half health with blood price, then Q blood price. I use the E to slow or build passive - never as any good poke. People who have a million mastery points or higher tell me E is the best ability to level first. I find it as unsatisfying as Miss Fortune's -Make it Rain-. It's outdated ability setup. Something like Trundle's E could stand the test of time but not this AOE slow snorefest. I am very biased about this ability.

Im telling what Riot has said, sometimes an ability HAS to be boring in order to make the rest of the kit feel more impactful. Not every ability HAS to be 10/10 LCS BIG PLAYS. As long as it fills a use: poke, slow, AoE wave clear, set up for Q / kite negator that allows u to be more sticky to keep landing AA's, fills up Blood Well. Look at all those uses, no its not super exciting but does what it needs to do. Sure I'd love it if it did somthing else cooler, but it does what I need it to, so I am cool with it.

Now what would probably make it more satisfying is if BOTH skillshots could deal damage to the same target and if that happened it gave a bonus effect such as a BIGGER slow or an armor reduction, or if hitting with both skillshots gave u 2 stacks of Blood Well (or for my passive 2 Blood Pools). Would u be more satified if they did that? It means E requires more skill to get the most out of it.

Back to the counterplay, you can prevent him from stacking a passive by seeing the bar and taking that opportunity to all in or get a gank. It needs experimentation to see if it works as enough to stop a faster curve into the late game. The bar should build slow enough to get something done about Aatrox and the result of not stopping that bar should be a more devastating buff. It's like letting Nasus get Q stacks, it should feel rewarding to stop and be a more difficult situation when left unchecked. Aatrox as a solo laner should be easy to counter, like how he was for a long time. But Aatrox in other lanes or the jungle would be dependent on map control. The less towers his team has on you, the easier it is to ward up and see him coming. If an Aatrox is spotted on the map without blood rush at the ready he's vulnerable.

U already know how I feel about "counter play" implemented in this kind of way

W2001 votes

I think the rework is necessary, reading over how these are justified. Here's a slow summary of my favorite concept; Aatrox is a front-line support carry that decides the fight based on who he targets as the best ally to protect and the most dangerous enemy to target.

Blood thirst/blood price should feel a lot more important, and the cost of health to do more damage to the enemy is perhaps the most unique thing in his kit period. It can be toggled at any time and makes a 1v1 situation easier to handle and in a teamfight there's more of a choice. The healing of the W should be strong below 50% health to aid his jungle clear, and the damage of the other side of the coin should be based on how much missing health an enemy has. This third auto attack should feel satisfying as an execute and relieving as a heal when taking damage.

I do not have any numbers to suggest for blood thirst or blood price. They are both situational and should not be generally strong abilities, but enough healing should be done for Aatrox's jungle clear and enough damage should be dealt to low health targets to feel satisfying. Keeping blood prices self damage is good for consistency, but I don't feel strongly about keeping it.

Aatrox's passive Bloodwell should charge with healing done when blood thirst is active, as a red bar. And should charge with damage done with abilities when blood price is active, as a purple bar. Each bar is individual and will display to teammates and enemies what Aatrox is capable of.

When the red bar is full, Aatrox for the next 10 seconds gains Blood Rush. Upon revival by Blood Rush the red bar cannot be filled for 210-160 seconds based on level. The red bar charges when Aatrox heals himself with his W, or a teammate with his Q. It can also be more slowly charged with his E, if the teammate is healing off of the bonus lifesteal.

-Blood Rush: Grants 25-75% attack speed based on level and will revive Aatrox upon death, at the cost of depleting the bar and removing Blood Rush. If Blood Rush expires without a revival only 50% of the bar will be drained.

When the purple bar is full, Aatrox for the next 4 seconds gains Darkin Strength. The purple bar charges with damage dealt to others by abilities, not self damage. When doing damage to a non-structure with blood price, dark flight, or slaughter it's charged.

-Darkin Strength: Grants 25% base attack damage and 15-50% lifesteal against champions based on their level. Upon champion kill 2 more seconds will tick. If Darkin Strength expires without getting a champion kill only 50% of the bar will drain.

After 6.5 seconds of being out of combat your current bar will rapidly drain. If your current bar is empty the other one will drain.

These changes alone give Aatrox a point of strength and weakness. In a solo-lane facing Aatrox you pay attention to which bar he's building, the only way for him to stop building a bar is to drain them out of combat. This makes his plays easier to predict and plan ahead for, but making them powerful enough to bother planning against. When the bars aren't full Aatrox's early game is notably weak. Especially when he's by himself. This is the time to gank or poke him out of lane. If you let him get his buffs he'll faceroll in a trade.

Now for the rest of his kit. You will get two Q's and two E's, which one depending on if you have blood thirst or blood price toggled.

While blood thirst is active:

Q- Blades of torment - Aatrox takes a heavy swing at all enemies in front of him, knocking them back dealing physical damage (25 / 50 / 75 / 125 / 175 +70% bonus AD) and healing a nearby ally champion for 5% of their missing HP. (CD: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10)

E- Vengeance - Aatrox points his sword at an ally and gives them a few short words to inspire them, granting +15% tenacity and +5-50% lifesteal based on level. Vengeance is displayed on a champion as a circle of blood under their feet and lasts 3-6 seconds based on level, it will also expire if Aatrox dies. CD: 11

While blood price is active:

Q- Dark Flight - Aatrox takes flight for 2 seconds, avoiding skillshots and gains 25% movement speed while hovering towards enemy champions. When in mid-air, pressing Q again will have Aatrox slam down at a target location knocking up enemy champions in the center of the impact and dealing physical damage to all nearby units (10 / 35 / 60 / 95 / 120 (+ 70% bonus AD) CD: 14 / 12.5 / 10 / 8.5/ 8 Cost: 5% of current health), not recasting Q will refund a quarter of the cooldown.

E- Slaughter: Aatrox charges forward a short distance, taking reduced damage and leaving a trail of blood behind him that grants teammates +25% movement speed. If he collides with a unit he impales the target causing them to bleed for (120% of AD over 6 seconds.) This ability can be cast midair. (CD: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8) (Cost: 30 health)

These are longer cooldown abilities that give a choice in when to go in and when to get out, Aatrox can be very mobile and damaging but at a price. The knockback and knockup are best used defensively, but with the right team composition these tools are also very usable initiation. Generally you get the same window of time to pull off a combo as they all come off cooldown around the same time. Aatrox's lategame is improved greatly when these cooldowns are lowered at level 18, and if he invested in cooldown reduction there's potential to knock the enemy team around every 6 seconds. Full AD Aatrox is improved with outplay potential in being airborn, and multiple abilities to chain instead of (Q -> Third Auto -> R). And tanky builds can be bodyguard support that initiate hard and keep pushing forward. With enough preparation for a fight he could get both blood rush and darkin strength, give Vengeance to his ADC and target anybody he sees as a threat. If the fight is lost then, it was faulty positioning.

How is this going to be balanced, you may ask. Well think of other champions with expansive kits like Lee Sin or Nidalee, it's all about the combo. If Aatrox is in lane alone he's vulnerable without his buffs and cooldowns up. In a teamfight if you target Aatrox he'll either sink or swim under the pressure, his heal won't be reliable enough if he's not tanky and his damage won't be amazing if he's not damage. His gold requirement isn't unobtainable anymore now that he can build up power without items. But there's a larger power spike for when he either builds tank or damage, and an even larger one when he buys both. This is what a fighter could do with a support start. It leaves an open slot for another great teamfighter and the team composition would fit nicely, instead of his old unfit for most state.

Aatrox's ultimate should be left unchanged but could use a nerf in how much magic damage it does. Massacre would be the highlight of a fight as it should be used to end them, execute one enemy after another in a tighter area like the river or jungle with continuous blood prices.

In conclusion the champion would play a lot differently if reworked, but there's no loss of identity for him. If any huge changes come to Aatrox so be it! The champion will remain to be fun for a good amount of people that play him. If you like or dislike what I'd like to see, there's so many opinions that you can't please everyone. I just have fun sharing my piece.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I think the rework is necessary, reading over how these are justified. Here's a slow summary of my favorite concept; Aatrox is a front-line support carry that decides the fight based on who he targets as the best ally to protect and the most dangerous enemy to target.

The basic idea of this kit is controversial for two reasons. 1st i'm sure u might have read the comment within this post discussion already, but there are Aatrox players who DO NOT consider Aatrox the type of character to support allies in ANY way. They reject the idea. I am open to it, but just kno many oppose the idea of a support-ish, ally protector Aatrox. If anything passive support/protecting that is strengthened by the allies own actions is a better reflection of Aatrox rather than active support/protection.

Blood thirst/blood price should feel a lot more important, and the cost of health to do more damage to the enemy is perhaps the most unique thing in his kit period. It can be toggled at any time and makes a 1v1 situation easier to handle and in a teamfight there's more of a choice. The healing of the W should be strong below 50% health to aid his jungle clear, and the damage of the other side of the coin should be based on how much missing health an enemy has. This third auto attack should feel satisfying as an execute and relieving as a heal when taking damage.

I'd say that this is a really gud idea, except for the health cost. Sure its unique, but as a squishy-ish AA'ing champ that relies more on AD and AS than HP, it doesnt seem like a gud idea, it punishes Aatrox for building what he wants rather than HP. And it enhancing the feast/famine thing thats not gud. The excute on Blood Price tho seems like a VERY gud idea, if Ekko can have it so should Aatrox

Aatrox's passive Bloodwell should charge with healing done when blood thirst is active, as a red bar. And should charge with damage done with abilities when blood price is active, as a purple bar. Each bar is individual and will display to teammates and enemies what Aatrox is capable of.

This is the 2nd controversial thing. Too much is going on with the kit at this point, sure other champs get 7 abilities but Aatrox only ever had 4, this is too much change that Aatrox players will balk at.

When the red bar is full, Aatrox for the next 10 seconds gains Blood Rush. Upon revival by Blood Rush the red bar cannot be filled for 210-160 seconds based on level. The red bar charges when Aatrox heals himself with his W, or a teammate with his Q. It can also be more slowly charged with his E, if the teammate is healing off of the bonus lifesteal.

-Blood Rush: Grants 25-75% attack speed based on level and will revive Aatrox upon death, at the cost of depleting the bar and removing Blood Rush. If Blood Rush expires without a revival only 50% of the bar will be drained.

When the purple bar is full, Aatrox for the next 4 seconds gains Darkin Strength. The purple bar charges with damage dealt to others by abilities, not self damage. When doing damage to a non-structure with blood price, dark flight, or slaughter it's charged.

Having 2 separate resources/ resource bars along with 2 separate activated passives is a huge burden on knowledge on the Aatrox player and his enemies, one bar is enough to keep track of.

-Darkin Strength: Grants 25% base attack damage and 15-50% lifesteal against champions based on their level. Upon champion kill 2 more seconds will tick. If Darkin Strength expires without getting a champion kill only 50% of the bar will drain.

After 6.5 seconds of being out of combat your current bar will rapidly drain. If your current bar is empty the other one will drain.

These changes alone give Aatrox a point of strength and weakness. In a solo-lane facing Aatrox you pay attention to which bar he's building, the only way for him to stop building a bar is to drain them out of combat. This makes his plays easier to predict and plan ahead for, but making them powerful enough to bother planning against. When the bars aren't full Aatrox's early game is notably weak. Especially when he's by himself. This is the time to gank or poke him out of lane. If you let him get his buffs he'll faceroll in a trade.

Now for the rest of his kit. You will get two Q's and two E's, which one depending on if you have blood thirst or blood price toggled.

While blood thirst is active:

Q- Blades of torment - Aatrox takes a heavy swing at all enemies in front of him, knocking them back dealing physical damage (25 / 50 / 75 / 125 / 175 +70% bonus AD) and healing a nearby ally champion for 5% of their missing HP. (CD: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10)

E- Vengeance - Aatrox points his sword at an ally and gives them a few short words to inspire them, granting +15% tenacity and +5-50% lifesteal based on level. Vengeance is displayed on a champion as a circle of blood under their feet and lasts 3-6 seconds based on level, it will also expire if Aatrox dies. CD: 11

This is just a stat buff, its not very interesting or interactive. E is not a gud abilities

While blood price is active:

Q- Dark Flight - Aatrox takes flight for 2 seconds, avoiding skillshots and gains 25% movement speed while hovering towards enemy champions. When in mid-air, pressing Q again will have Aatrox slam down at a target location knocking up enemy champions in the center of the impact and dealing physical damage to all nearby units (10 / 35 / 60 / 95 / 120 (+ 70% bonus AD) CD: 14 / 12.5 / 10 / 8.5/ 8 Cost: 5% of current health), not recasting Q will refund a quarter of the cooldown.

I LOVE this new Q idea, mind if I borrow it for the post ideas?

E- Slaughter: Aatrox charges forward a short distance, taking reduced damage and leaving a trail of blood behind him that grants teammates +25% movement speed. If he collides with a unit he impales the target causing them to bleed for (120% of AD over 6 seconds.) This ability can be cast midair. (CD: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8) (Cost: 30 health)

These are longer cooldown abilities that give a choice in when to go in and when to get out, Aatrox can be very mobile and damaging but at a price. The knockback and knockup are best used defensively, but with the right team composition these tools are also very usable initiation. Generally you get the same window of time to pull off a combo as they all come off cooldown around the same time. Aatrox's lategame is improved greatly when these cooldowns are lowered at level 18, and if he invested in cooldown reduction there's potential to knock the enemy team around every 6 seconds. Full AD Aatrox is improved with outplay potential in being airborn, and multiple abilities to chain instead of (Q -> Third Auto -> R). And tanky builds can be bodyguard support that initiate hard and keep pushing forward. With enough preparation for a fight he could get both blood rush and darkin strength, give Vengeance to his ADC and target anybody he sees as a threat. If the fight is lost then, it was faulty positioning.

How is this going to be balanced, you may ask. Well think of other champions with expansive kits like Lee Sin or Nidalee, it's all about the combo. If Aatrox is in lane alone he's vulnerable without his buffs and cooldowns up. In a teamfight if you target Aatrox he'll either sink or swim under the pressure, his heal won't be reliable enough if he's not tanky and his damage won't be amazing if he's not damage. His gold requirement isn't unobtainable anymore now that he can build up power without items. But there's a larger power spike for when he either builds tank or damage, and an even larger one when he buys both. This is what a fighter could do with a support start. It leaves an open slot for another great teamfighter and the team composition would fit nicely, instead of his old unfit for most state.

Aditionally for balance Lee Sin and Nidalee each only have 1 supp ability, this Aatrox has 2 which means his AD, AS, or healing would have to take a nerf to balance him out.

Aatrox's ultimate should be left unchanged but could use a nerf in how much magic damage it does. Massacre would be the highlight of a fight as it should be used to end them, execute one enemy after another in a tighter area like the river or jungle with continuous blood prices.

In conclusion the champion would play a lot differently if reworked, but there's no loss of identity for him. If any huge changes come to Aatrox so be it! The champion will remain to be fun for a good amount of people that play him. If you like or dislike what I'd like to see, there's so many opinions that you can't please everyone. I just have fun sharing my piece.

W2001 votes

I do understand now, my other ideas are a hell of a lot less complicated and different when explained to another person. And changing Aatrox like this is no incremental change - There's people who would get mad (Even though his role as a top laner is unharmed). Everything in the kit I came up with comes from someone's passion to play this champion:

Some people wanted aerial combos and some sort of way to dodge ganks in a non-janky way, and I couldn't agree more. I've escaped tons of times on Aatrox, it's a fun experience of Q-ing over a wall and dumping an AOE slow. But that's in lower divisions. The higher up the ladder the harder it is for any of his kit to function the way it's intended. Especially during slow teamfights where Aatrox has no place going in or going out.

Others spam-picked him when he first came out because of how fun it was to jungle Aatrox, it was bitter-sweet when lane Aatrox was a lot better at the time because of how overpowered he came out. (He abused items like Randuin's Omen, there was no counterplay)

Me and my close friends that play together for more or less to avoid toxic teammates have all played Aatrox for at least 200k mastery points, wanted to fix Aatrox's main problem; he is a melee carry. These types of champions have all been either given assassin like qualities or turned them into fighters, ex. Fiora. A melee carry is unhealthy in league for several reasons, the main issue is you cannot get close enough to do any meaningful damage without being blown up or kept back. They also are easily kited and suffer more than anyone else under crowd control. This issue applies more to organized play than soloqueue (where most Aatrox players are) but as a low tier champion we wanted to make him viable. This in itself is what makes my points controversial, a lot of players that pick Aatrox are in it for soloqueue fun and don't like how other champions lane in comparison. Full AD Aatrox for seasons of not being in the patch notes could be the longest lasting strategy without Riot stepping in to nerf it in the game.

I can now go into why these were the final result.

The passive was the trickiest, and it shows, two resource bars is the most uniquely complicated a champion might ever be. This concept was more about what could be and not a direct suggestion to Riot. So we came up with two separate bars that buff Aatrox's damage when full. One would fill up when Aatrox is healing poke away and presents an opportunity to go in with 10 seconds of attack speed and a revive on death. The other purple bar is domestically what an aggressive player would fill to deal as much damage as possible, then use the attack damage and lifesteal to kill and heal back up. Many times there was disagreements in the discord for one bar or two. The final decision was that if there was only one bar, the buff would have to be generally nerfed in how you get it or the payoff. And that would mean less potential to do any damage.

The hurting W, some people like it some people don't, I've seen both types with convincing arguments. If there's one unique thing about Aatrox before the mini-update, it's that he hurt himself to auto attack. And that damage scaled with AD. It's the strangest health cost in the game because the only thing you get out of using it was a burst damage auto attack. With Mordekaiser there's the incentive to farm or get multiple auto attacks in. The blood price was titled and made into a powerful lane tool to poke or combo with a Q and murder. It doesn't make any sense, so I don't know if it's good or bad to have. I would've trusted the data from Aatrox play after the mini-update but the winrate and damage has all tanked.

The Q/Q and E/E thing, it enables more complicated combos. The edge in a teamfight is his mobility tankiness and damage wrapped into one tight package.

The going airborn thing wasn't particularly inspired, people have been wanting Aatrox to use his wings. What I wanted was something that was intended for his old Q that could function a lot smoother. In the Aatrox spotlight it demonstrates how you could dodge and ability and then knock a champion into the air, but that's not how it ended up in practice. I dare even say it's impossible to get both of those uses out of the old Dark Flight in a real game. So a 2 second duration and moving faster towards enemy champions could be the edge needed for a longer distance surprise attack in the likes of bot lane river or top lane tribush.

The knockback and heal a teammate isn't limited to support, it does damage and knocks someone back. The utility in that could be hilarious in the jungle or river. I guess it'd be most similar to Syndra's E, a move to setup something else. A gank from Aatrox would be him flying over somewhere sneaky and coming in to knock the enemies into tower or somewhere they don't wanna be. Not as powerful as a perfect Alistar or Gragas play but it's not slow and janky so a lot better than a single knock up that could easily miss.

The dash of sorts is for solo or team benefit. People could always follow the trail and start fighting, but alone I think it should only be able to go through walls if Aatrox used his Q to hover above. A selfish escape that covers more distance when you Q -> E -> Q over a wall. It costs HP but would be the bread and butter of getting in or getting out because teammates pick up the trail. That's the kind of sacrifice his health costs should bring, good initiation or escape. Nothing is guaranteed when you have bad positioning so in soloqueue he might be diving the backline with this instead.

I guess it's my fault for putting in an oldschool ability. I just want something Aatrox can do to inspire a teammate to go in before the big red guy starts going ham. It's in good intentions, but just as flawed as blood boil. If you have a suggestion for a good anti-CC or indirect heal ability this would be the slot to fill. I know the blood pools idea could work around this.

I do believe if this was how the rework went it would be attack speed that'd come the hardest.

There's no doubt with Massacre and Blood Rush up that's a humongous amount, so early game Blood Rush might give less attack speed and the most value he could spend with his gold would be Beserker's Greaves into either damage or tank stats. Getting both in late-game is what could come back from a losing game, winning a few fights with Aatrox healing to mitigate damage is a good basis to take back objectives.

Of course when I say mitigate, there's an unused idea. If you've ever played world of warcraft you'd know blood death knights can use an ability to heal back damage taken in the past few seconds. This would be a more constructive heal for the jungle and teamfights, and less in lane. Because damage in lane is taken slowly up into the point the enemy goes all in. It's not anything special if used without taking damage for example against a preoccupied minion wave, but would be rivaling warwick sustain in the jungle. If there's any sort of tank Aatrox that I'd like to play it isn't a black cleaver titanic hydra bruiser, it's a high HP fast attacking tank that takes more damage than others just because he'd heal it back short term. If the heal is to be kept meta healthy it should be based on missing health % as well as damage taken in the last couple of seconds. For the sake of consistency and identity, the missing health % would show good scaling below half health.

Sometimes though, I wonder... If any of the die hard aggressive Aatrox fans really want any change other than a direct buff to the old kit. And what Riot is going to do about that.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Some people wanted aerial combos and some sort of way to dodge ganks in a non-janky way, and I couldn't agree more. I've escaped tons of times on Aatrox, it's a fun experience of Q-ing over a wall and dumping an AOE slow. But that's in lower divisions. The higher up the ladder the harder it is for any of his kit to function the way it's intended. Especially during slow teamfights where Aatrox has no place going in or going out.

agreed

The hurting W, some people like it some people don't, I've seen both types with convincing arguments. If there's one unique thing about Aatrox before the mini-update, it's that he hurt himself to auto attack. And that damage scaled with AD. It's the strangest health cost in the game because the only thing you get out of using it was a burst damage auto attack. With Mordekaiser there's the incentive to farm or get multiple auto attacks in. The blood price was titled and made into a powerful lane tool to poke or combo with a Q and murder. It doesn't make any sense, so I don't know if it's good or bad to have. I would've trusted the data from Aatrox play after the mini-update but the winrate and damage has all tanked.

I think its safer if the Health Cost are removed from Q and Blood Price. Whats the point of going in or using enhanced AA on a champion (that doesnt normally build tanky) if it only hurts you to do so? Its counter intuitive, sure unique, but healthy for Aatrox? No. Any ability that cost health that a champ NEEDS to use to be useful makes more since on a champ that gains more benefit from building tanky. the health costs on W also enhances the feast/famine thing, its what Riot doesn't want so if u ask me health cost on W are out the window

The Q/Q and E/E thing, it enables more complicated combos. The edge in a teamfight is his mobility tankiness and damage wrapped into one tight package.

I could see Aatrox's kit being set up similar to Rek'Sai's being "ok" where depeding on the toggle of W he gets different Q's and E's. But having 2 diff resources and 2 diff activation is too much on top of that.

I do feel like Q - Blades of Torment is a bit weak, but it serves a purpose, perhaps it would be better if it reset his AA timer. E- Vengeance is the weakness ability and won't work unless changed from a stat buff. Perhaps if the Ally granted the Buff; when attacking the last champion that attacked them, gained lifesteal if below 30% HP and was immune to soft CC. I think this is better b/c then it relies more on the allies actions, and its not a simple stat buff anymore, they have to take a specific action to gain the buff. I really like the Q- Dark Flight, but I think E- Slaughter would be better if it didn't have a bleed (they removed that from most champions except Darius), if it didn't have the reduced damage thing (too many tools i think), if it didn't leave a trail that grant allied MS (definitely too many tools, switch it to a slow possibly). Instead have the unit he collides with be slowed, and have reduced armor. Instead the impale should do this: If Aatrox collides with a unit he impales them causing them to be launched 100 units in the direction Aatrox faces in the next 0.5 sec. Also u didn't want him to have poke anymore? What if he cast the old version of E and if it hit a champ he automatically dashed to them?

The going airborn thing wasn't particularly inspired, people have been wanting Aatrox to use his wings. What I wanted was something that was intended for his old Q that could function a lot smoother. In the Aatrox spotlight it demonstrates how you could dodge and ability and then knock a champion into the air, but that's not how it ended up in practice. I dare even say it's impossible to get both of those uses out of the old Dark Flight in a real game. So a 2 second duration and moving faster towards enemy champions could be the edge needed for a longer distance surprise attack in the likes of bot lane river or top lane tribush.

I agree except 2 seconds is too long a duration of un-target-ability it should be 1.5 sec like the other spell shields

The knockback and heal a teammate isn't limited to support, it does damage and knocks someone back. The utility in that could be hilarious in the jungle or river. I guess it'd be most similar to Syndra's E, a move to setup something else. A gank from Aatrox would be him flying over somewhere sneaky and coming in to knock the enemies into tower or somewhere they don't wanna be. Not as powerful as a perfect Alistar or Gragas play but it's not slow and janky so a lot better than a single knock up that could easily miss.

I also think that 2 CC abilities might be too much CC for Aatrox, u have him doing a bit too much on top of the utility u have given him, Riot is cutting down on how much they allow champions to do nowadays

The dash of sorts is for solo or team benefit. People could always follow the trail and start fighting, but alone I think it should only be able to go through walls if Aatrox used his Q to hover above. A selfish escape that covers more distance when you Q -> E -> Q over a wall. It costs HP but would be the bread and butter of getting in or getting out because teammates pick up the trail. That's the kind of sacrifice his health costs should bring, good initiation or escape. Nothing is guaranteed when you have bad positioning so in soloqueue he might be diving the backline with this instead.

Why should Aatrox have to lose health to initiate? Thats a problem because whether u are running or initiating you would want to be healthy to survive. Also it just makes thematic sense. If Aatrox has wings it stands to reason that flying wouldn't be a problem for him, why should a biological ability cost hp for him to use? Same goes for W it could be reasoned that the sword just changes the way it work, or Aatrox changes the way he swings and swings harder, why should that cost health?

I guess it's my fault for putting in an oldschool ability. I just want something Aatrox can do to inspire a teammate to go in before the big red guy starts going ham. It's in good intentions, but just as flawed as blood boil. If you have a suggestion for a good anti-CC or indirect heal ability this would be the slot to fill. I know the blood pools idea could work around this.

Yeah if u want to use the Eviscerate and Blood Pool mechanics, it could work like this: E- Vengeance - Aatrox points his sword at an ally and gives them a few short words to inspire them, granting them a Blood Wells mark for 5 sec. The mark causes each basic attack to eviscerate the enemy champ / large monster that damaged them or Aatrox last. If the ally walks over any Blood Pool they will consume it (both Aatrox and that Ally can "share" Blood Pools) Granting them 200% increased HP regen for x sec. (Or they could possibly gain any other buff.) It shouldn't expire on Aatrox's death due to his Lore.

Massacre's AS could be increased by a % while Blood Rushing rather than just having both AS % buffs stack on top of each other.

Of course when I say mitigate, there's an unused idea. If you've ever played world of warcraft you'd know blood death knights can use an ability to heal back damage taken in the past few seconds.

Like Tahm Kench? What if Aatrox's Blood Thirst healed him for a % of max HP + a % of the damage dealt to him in the last x sec

This would be a more constructive heal for the jungle and teamfights, and less in lane. Because damage in lane is taken slowly up into the point the enemy goes all in. It's not anything special if used without taking damage for example against a preoccupied minion wave, but would be rivaling warwick sustain in the jungle.

Agreed this is a gud idea, im adding it to my list of suggestions

If there's any sort of tank Aatrox that I'd like to play it isn't a black cleaver titanic hydra bruiser, it's a high HP fast attacking tank that takes more damage than others just because he'd heal it back short term.

this right here is KEY to Aatrox CORE identity and MUST NOT be forgotten or misconstrued. REMEMBER this when they finally get around to the Diver Update or his Rework/update and they make a post asking the community about Aatrox core theme.

If the heal is to be kept meta healthy it should be based on missing health % as well as damage taken in the last couple of seconds. For the sake of consistency and identity, the missing health % would show good scaling below half health.

Agree if its set up like this also gains an indirect buff if Aatrox builds more tanky so it all works out.

Sometimes though, I wonder... If any of the die hard aggressive Aatrox fans really want any change other than a direct buff to the old kit. And what Riot is going to do about that.

riots not gonna keep the old kit and definitely not the old or this new passive each has its inherent problems

W2001 votes

That's good tinkering, probably for the best. I haven't got much feedback since the idea was finished and now it can make a lot more sense. The health cost argument is never going to be my call with any other situation... But with this set of abilities it'd be better to have no health costs since nothing scales off of self-damage anymore. The passive alternative to separate bars is -

Blood Well - Aatrox fills his Blood Well through healing done (Based on Level), and it empties after being out of combat for 6 seconds. When the Blood Well is filled, Aatrox gains Blood Rush for 8 seconds and +25% tenacity. During Blood Rush, dealing/taking damage against enemy champions or killing a large/epic monster will completely fill the Blood Well and refresh Blood Rush duration. When Blood Rush expires the Blood Well will rapidly drain. If Blood Rush expires without reviving or getting a champion kill/assist only half of the bar will drain.

Blood Rush: Aatrox gains 25% increased base AD and 25% / 40% / 55% / 70% bonus attack speed. Upon taking fatal damage Aatrox will revive over 3 seconds, recovering 30% of maximum health +25% damage taken in the past 6 seconds over the duration. Aatrox cannot revive more than once every 210 / 180 / 160 / 140 seconds. Blood Rush does not expire on revival.

Changing the passive to this, making Vengeance into a blood pool system for allies to follow, and getting rid of all utility from his dash and replacing it's bleed with a 1 second slow would make a complete diving fighter. Blades of Torment could also be the auto attack reset ability for aggressive players, I would want the knockback's role in a fight to be like how Aatrox swatted Trydnamere aside to kill his kin.

Aatrox in a lane has been about trading with the enemy, even if it's negative. I want it to stay that way without giving too much flat healing. Making it more dynamic with damage taken is a good start, adding the aspect of stabbing at a champion instead of wooshing a skillshot is a much less boring lane all-together. Press E to win should be changed to heal enough poke to get a buff that turns the tide.

Massacre might need to be nerfed. I acknowledge it's too much to balance, but it's always been a cool ability. I think there's hope to keep it cool yet. With the mini-update the ability was changed so it would fill 20% of the blood well with each champion hit. So here's an idea to change Massacre:

Passive: Blood Rush lasts 4 seconds longer, Aatrox gains bonus attack range during Blood Rush. (While blood rushing Aatrox moves like his old ultimate)

Active: Aatrox draws in the blood of his foes, dealing magic damage to nearby enemy champions and filling 25% of his Blood Well for each enemy champion hit. Heals for 15% of damage done.

Magic Damage: 75 / 125 / 175 (+ 100% Missing HP)

I agree with a lot of your points, I think I'll revise the concept and see what my friends think. Thank you.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

Blood Well - Aatrox fills his Blood Well through healing done (Based on Level), and it empties after being out of combat for 6 seconds. When the Blood Well is filled, Aatrox gains Blood Rush for 8 seconds and +25% tenacity. During Blood Rush, dealing/taking damage against enemy champions or killing a large/epic monster will completely fill the Blood Well and refresh Blood Rush duration. When Blood Rush expires the Blood Well will rapidly drain. If Blood Rush expires without reviving or getting a champion kill/assist only half of the bar will drain.

Why does the B.W. only fill thu healing? I think adding Tenacity puts too much stuff in his passive. And I think it usually takes a bit longer than 8 sec to finish off JG camps in the early game (educate me if I am wrong), but that migh be ok? Why did you want to want to make it so that if Aatrox isnt killed after Blood Rushing it only drains half the bar?

Blood Rush: Aatrox gains 25% increased base AD and 25% / 40% / 55% / 70% bonus attack speed. Upon taking fatal damage Aatrox will revive over 3 seconds, recovering 30% of maximum health +25% damage taken in the past 6 seconds over the duration. Aatrox cannot revive more than once every 210 / 180 / 160 / 140 seconds. Blood Rush does not expire on revival.

Changing the passive to this, making Vengeance into a blood pool system for allies to follow, and getting rid of all utility from his dash and replacing it's bleed with a 1 second slow would make a complete diving fighter. Blades of Torment could also be the auto attack reset ability for aggressive players, I would want the knockback's role in a fight to be like how Aatrox swatted Trydnamere aside to kill his kin.

I think if the allies get the blood pool system through Vengence then Aatrox needs it on his own main passive for consistency and clarity reasons, it shows how well the kit plays with itself (This Aurelion Sol Passive and W for example). I guess a 1 sec slow on the dash is ok. And it does make for a better diver.

Aatrox in a lane has been about trading with the enemy, even if it's negative. I want it to stay that way without giving too much flat healing. Making it more dynamic with damage taken is a good start, adding the aspect of stabbing at a champion instead of wooshing a skillshot is a much less boring lane all-together.

"Press E to win should be changed to heal enough poke to get a buff that turns the tide."

Explain this pls.

Massacre might need to be nerfed. I acknowledge it's too much to balance, but it's always been a cool ability. I think there's hope to keep it cool yet. With the mini-update the ability was changed so it would fill 20% of the blood well with each champion hit.

I think more could be done with it. As it stands it fills a mechanic position in the kit fine, but I find it lacking in the thematic department

Passive: Blood Rush lasts 4 seconds longer, Aatrox gains bonus attack range during Blood Rush.

I think the passive should just be active for the whole duration of the ult either automatically or the instant he activates Blood Rush it stays until the end.

W2001 votes

The Blood Well used to fill through self-damage done, this was something to stack the bloodwell up slower. I think there's potential to feel more like a drain-tank if instead it fills through healing. Drawing in blood from his foes to get more power, taking damage on purpose to heal more. Tenacity as a stat can be obtained via a mastery, elixr of iron, and mercury treads. It's a stat that Aatrox would need to not be shut down in a teamfight because he was and still is easily CC'd away. But he doesn't get very much value with his kit by buying elixr of iron instead of elixr of wrath, or mercury treads instead of berserker's greaves, and I doubt more than a third of players will be investing in the Swiftness mastery. Fiora was given an ability that can block CC among other things and an AOE heal to no longer have the inherent problem being a melee carry brings, Trydnamere can become immune to death during crowd control. Even Master Yi can Q to avoid a stun. Aatrox has nothing in his kit to combat CC and maybe he never will. He'd be better off somehow getting CC reduction without indirectly sacrificing attack speed or healing. Now that doesn't mean I'm right, I'm no better than the guy that designed Irelia. In some situations I look at a champion and think what'll bring them into a viable spot for solo-queue and competitive. After a finished piece I think about what made them not work in the first place, and I second-guess myself even to the point of making the champion a counter-counter. The result could be too much packed into one champion but I'm glad you haven't yet criticized too heavily for that. Often I need someone to tell me something something is too much before I get it all in a good spot, I hope it shows with all the input and new ideas I've brought.

There's a good kit synergy with Evisceration and Vengeance, someone might prefer to take E first for the slow/heal early. Having it on the passive and realized with the active is what'd give blood price a purpose other than deal damage faster. Anything that makes the kit synergize is welcome.

Aatrox in lane has historically been frustrating. Comparing his lane to his jungle, one is a lot more fair. The sustain of lane Aatrox was what made him able to abuse items near release. Melee champions couldn't out-trade him and ranged champions never got meaningful poke without Aatrox healing it all back. Not to mention he has his own poke that scales well early. There was and is no decision making when playing a lane-push robot, the idea is ward up and push until stopped. Then push again. It was an inevitability that Aatrox would be doomed from the start. I've seen a lot of footage of the poke more E spam, it's too much of an advantage when he can throw out damage and keep himself healthy from a distance. I don't think armor reduction or two separate skillshots intersecting is going to save this ability. My idea of an Aatrox lane looks more like a guy always up in someone's face to soak up damage and squirt it away like a sponge, he's not a very threatening target until he's soaked enough. Him trading without blood rush means a lot less blood thirsts and less ability damage. The counterplay is either not hitting Aatrox so much or killing him before he can get off the ground. After doing one of those two start pushing against him, starving him of his bloodwell so he's a lot more susceptible to burst damage. (Ganks realistically) Eventually this forces Aatrox to jump onto someone without Blood Rush, he needs to heal to get it full so it's already not in his favor. The abilities that do his best damage do not heal Aatrox apart from auto attacks and his ultimate. After level 6 Aatrox won't likely go in without trying to get blood rush, it's an important stat buff to keep him alive. His ultimate is the fastest way and that's on a long cooldown.

The thematic department is making blood rush feel satisfying to get. And even more to use! More simply put, if you didn't get it before, the additional benefits that his ultimate brought will be transported to blood rush passively when leveling up the ability. When a point is put into Massacre... Blood Rush lasts 12 seconds instead of 8, 12 seconds is the duration of the old ultimate. Blood Rush grants the additional attack range. The active of the ultimate is a method of revenge. It scales off of missing health, building HP means more nuke when low health. It also heals for 15% damage done, this means the blood well fills faster and being surrounded with low health is turned into a major advantage. 100% of your missing health applies as magic damage to up to 5 enemy champions. 15% of 500% your missing HP = 75% missing health. Gaining that much health and filling the bloodwell is what happens when the ability hits a whole team. There would be a damage cap at 1000 HP so building more than 2 health items won't be viable. The theme of drain-tank is carried to the ultimate, the fight lasting longer means more damage and healing. Every number can be tweaked. They might even at this point be just for show.

I'm sure making an ultimate that benefits blood rush in some way during the effect is what you'd like to see. I respect that, there's just no way to make one that obeys the rules of the proc. If it's meant to enhance bloodrush to not tick down or last the duration of a separate spell it defeats the purpose of having the buff refresh when dealing or taking damage. (To put in perspective how clunky that is take for example in Miss Fortune's kit: Marking a target with Love Tap reduces the cooldown of Strut. What Love Tap doesn't do is prolong the effects of Strut. Her kit instead of getting the attack speed buff longer is focused on having the ability up more often. Like how in my concept the ultimate helps blood rush proc. Abilities can be actively enhanced by each other like Renekton's fury bar, but his active abilities cannot enhance his passive abilities.) Sadly it'd be more complicated and likely buggy to make the Aatrox ultimate activate a pretty much different version of blood rush that lasts as long as the ultimate does. And mechanically, it makes sense to get blood rush from drawing in an enemies blood rather than getting it regardless of hitting any champions.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

The Blood Well used to fill through self-damage done, this was something to stack the bloodwell up slower. I think there's potential to feel more like a drain-tank if instead it fills through healing. Drawing in blood from his foes to get more power, taking damage on purpose to heal more. Tenacity as a stat can be obtained via a mastery, elixr of iron, and mercury treads. It's a stat that Aatrox would need to not be shut down in a teamfight because he was and still is easily CC'd away. But he doesn't get very much value with his kit by buying elixr of iron instead of elixr of wrath, or mercury treads instead of berserker's greaves, and I doubt more than a third of players will be investing in the Swiftness mastery. Fiora was given an ability that can block CC among other things and an AOE heal to no longer have the inherent problem being a melee carry brings, Trydnamere can become immune to death during crowd control. Even Master Yi can Q to avoid a stun. Aatrox has nothing in his kit to combat CC and maybe he never will.

Aatrox Q should def let him not take CC, that or give the ability some other buff/get rid of one of the limitations of it.

He'd be better off somehow getting CC reduction without indirectly sacrificing attack speed or healing. Now that doesn't mean I'm right, I'm no better than the guy that designed Irelia. The result could be too much packed into one champion but I'm glad you haven't yet criticized too heavily for that. Often I need someone to tell me something something is too much before I get it all in a good spot, I hope it shows with all the input and new ideas I've brought.

What if Aatrox gained Tenacity that scaled with his AS? It could be called Battle focus or something (but then it does let him double dip on stats)

There's a good kit synergy with Evisceration and Vengeance, someone might prefer to take E first for the slow/heal early. Having it on the passive and realized with the active is what'd give blood price a purpose other than deal damage faster. Anything that makes the kit synergize is welcome.

Aatrox in lane has historically been frustrating. Comparing his lane to his jungle, one is a lot more fair. The sustain of lane Aatrox was what made him able to abuse items near release. Melee champions couldn't out-trade him and ranged champions never got meaningful poke without Aatrox healing it all back. Not to mention he has his own poke that scales well early. There was and is no decision making when playing a lane-push robot, the idea is ward up and push until stopped. Then push again. It was an inevitability that Aatrox would be doomed from the start. I've seen a lot of footage of the poke more E spam, it's too much of an advantage when he can throw out damage and keep himself healthy from a distance. I don't think armor reduction or two separate skillshots intersecting is going to save this ability. My idea of an Aatrox lane looks more like a guy always up in someone's face to soak up damage and squirt it away like a sponge,

ok i see ur point there (that sponge reference tho, funny). in that case ur version of Blades of Torment with the Cone sword swipe is ok (i just dont think it should have a knock back)

he's not a very threatening target until he's soaked enough. Him trading without blood rush means a lot less blood thirsts and less ability damage. The counterplay is either not hitting Aatrox so much or killing him before he can get off the ground. After doing one of those two start pushing against him, starving him of his bloodwell so he's a lot more susceptible to burst damage. (Ganks realistically) Eventually this forces Aatrox to jump onto someone without Blood Rush, he needs to heal to get it full so it's already not in his favor. The abilities that do his best damage do not heal Aatrox apart from auto attacks and his ultimate.

I do hope that they do something to improve Aatrox's counterplay and make it more interactive, it doesnt have to be Eviscerate and Blood Pools, but something. One thing I am hoping they do is that he gains more blood well if an ability has hit more than 1 champ/large monster that incentives him being a Diver. Aatrox's ult doesnt heal him, im confused.

After level 6 Aatrox won't likely go in without trying to get blood rush, it's an important stat buff to keep him alive. His ultimate is the fastest way and that's on a long cooldown.

The thematic department is making blood rush feel satisfying to get. And even more to use! More simply put, if you didn't get it before, the additional benefits that his ultimate brought will be transported to blood rush passively when leveling up the ability. When a point is put into Massacre...

Ok so this is ur kit idea i get it now (don't think Blood Well should fill off healing done tho, i see how it works with W and the ult, but thats also kinda double dipping, i admit that its cool, but damage/ combat buff in addition to healing... it could work, but i dont kno)

Blood Rush lasts 12 seconds instead of 8, 12 seconds is the duration of the old ultimate. Blood Rush grants the additional attack range. The active of the ultimate is a method of revenge. It scales off of missing health, building HP means more nuke when low health. It also heals for 15% damage done, this means the blood well fills faster and being surrounded with low health is turned into a major advantage. 100% of your missing health applies as magic damage to up to 5 enemy champions. 15% of 500% your missing HP = 75% missing health. Gaining that much health and filling the bloodwell is what happens when the ability hits a whole team. There would be a damage cap at 1000 HP so building more than 2 health items won't be viable. The theme of drain-tank is carried to the ultimate, the fight lasting longer means more damage and healing. Every number can be tweaked. They might even at this point be just for show.

I'm sure making an ultimate that benefits blood rush in some way during the effect is what you'd like to see. I respect that, there's just no way to make one that obeys the rules of the proc. If it's meant to enhance bloodrush to not tick down or last the duration of a separate spell it defeats the purpose of having the buff refresh when dealing or taking damage.

Ok i get that, valid point, makes sense, ur right in that regard

Sadly it'd be more complicated and likely buggy to make the Aatrox ultimate activate a pretty much different version of blood rush that lasts as long as the ultimate does. And mechanically, it makes sense to get blood rush from drawing in an enemies blood rather than getting it regardless of hitting any champions.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

#Talking about the "counter play" with Aatrox's passive. I think they are more of inherent problems than opportunities for the enemy to counter play against Aatrox. Basically its Riot saying,

"Here are Aatrox's new weaknesses, now u know how to abuse them."

Thats not really counterplay thats abusing Aatrox's assigned weaknesses which are there to balance his passive's strength. There is so much more potential for real counter play if the passive is done in a way that gives both Aatrox and the enemy equal footing for a majority of the time.

I think that Riot has given his passive the wrong kinds of gating mehcanisms/balance measures that aren't really fun or engaging for anyone and this the game play and game health suffers for that.

Counter play should be based on the decisions and actions that each player takes against each other, whether it be based on the environment of what action the other player took. Each decision should have its pros and cons, that will allow either player to gain the upper hand. And when a player makes the right decisions and out plays the enemy they should be rewarded, meaning they should gain the CLEAR advantage.

I would like to argue that counter play shouldn't be limited to abusing a kits given weakness

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

What if they switched around some abilities in Aatrox's kit?

What if they put the passive on E and the E in the passive

Passive: Blades of Torment Every 12/10.75/9.5/8 sec (reduced by 1 sec every 3 AAs), Aatrox AA's twice sending out two converging energy waves in the direction that he is facing slowing enemy champions hit. The energy waves either deal bonus damage and fill the Blood Well for 20% (x # of enemy champions hit) using Blood Price or heal Aatrox for 5% of his max HP (x # of enemy champions hit) using Blood Thirst.

E: Blood Well Passive: Aatrox fills his Blood Well through his abilities. Each Ability fills 20% of the Blood Well (☆). If there is any % in the Blood Well upon taking fatal damage Aatrox will revive over 3 seconds. During the revive Aatrox recovers x HP% equal to 50% of what % the Blood Well was when he was slain over the duration draining the Blood Well. Revive is on a 180/165/150/135/120 CD Active: Blood Rush Aatrox can cast Blood Rush at any point that there a % in the Blood Well. Aatrox gains Blood Rush for 0.5 sec for every 10% in his Blood Well. While Blood Rushing Aatrox gains x% increased base AD and x/x/x/x/50% bonus attack speed. (☆)

(☆) indicates differences in how Blood Well works: either the current Blood Well, or the Eviscerate - Blood Pool Mechanic i have come up with. Either way the passive is probably better on E than as a main passive. Even if the revive is only available while Blood Rushing it makes more sense that the player can control when they will and wont have the revive.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

maybe Aatrox should only get the % dmg dealt in the last x sec heal on every 3 AA using Blood Thirst while Blood Rushing its a pwerful combat buff that probably shouldnt be active all the time. Ekko and Tahm have theirs on a CD, so Aatrox shouldn't get his all the time it should be part of his window of power.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Ok final assessment. I think the biggest problem with Aatrox has been ans still is his passive because of the way it is set up and the strength/ tools it offers the counter play that it was implemented with just didn't and doesn't work out. Additionally currently the way that the passive pays off with the work put in is less than optimal.

I believe the root of the problem is in the way that the counter play is set up. Counter play should NOT be primarily playing to the weakness of a champion's kit. Although it is a factor, it should not be the leading factor, because this will lead more to a binary or pre-dictated set of actions that each player will take and leads to a stale play style for both players.

Counterplay needs it root in the decisions that each player makes around the tools available to them (Ex. Kits, environment, other units, knowledge). It doesn't matter how counterplay is implemented in this way as long as it IS. Although I like the idea of the Eviscerate and Blood Pool Mechanic, I think many Aatrox players would be a lot more happy when the direction of their play style is controlled more by their own actions and not dictated by the limitations/rules of the kit.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

UPDATE!!!

Some one brought up a good point about a Viable drain tank: Warwick vs Aatrox

"I think it's because his drain-tanking is tied to his health and abilities, meaning he can't just drain-tank forever, like Aatrox could."

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

1.) Aatrox marks all allies within range granting them a small % of Lifesteal when they are below 30% health. 2.) a small % of damage dealt to enemies by all allies within range is stored as HP in a shield for Aatrox. Aatrox's shield HP drops off at a rate of X HP per sec. 3.) While his shield persists a 550 unit radius bubble AoE surrounds him. Within this AoE 4.) ALL damage taken by allies is stored dealing a % of the stored damage = to Aatrox's missing HP %( taking into account the additional shield HP%) as DoT. Stored damage is signified as a Gray section in the HP bar. Allies can stand over slain marked enemies for 1 sec to send a huge chunk of HP to the shield. After the duration Aatrox permanently gains a percent of the shield's HP.

b.) standing within a blood pool from an enemy takedown will consume it granting the ally champ massive HP regen for a duration.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by FlameHalbrdOkido

So...y'all are about to tell me...
Story, Art, & Sound185 comments
80
votes
Comprehensive Zaun Dictionary/Field Guide
Story, Art, & Sound53 comments
55
votes
Bullet Hell Champion Concept: Akara, The Gun Mage
Concepts & Creations30 comments
25
votes
How Would You Propose to Make Any Percieved Unfair Champion More Fair
Gameplay191 comments
19
votes
Comprehensive Noxus Dictionary/Field Guide
Story, Art, & Sound15 comments
12
votes
Champion Concept: Parnell, the Raging Furnace
Concepts & Creations7 comments
9
votes