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My personal stand on adcs ballance.

Knight SoIaire ··2 votes·943 views

So we face some problems with the ballance of adc's now. They prove to be the most valuable of all the classes atm which lead to resurrecting zilean as a pick, just to revive that adc.

So there is a problem because adcs are the stronger class atm, which had lead to countless discussions about meele champions being up, or ranged champions (adc's mainly) being op.

Also there is a problem that once we nerf one adc other one takes his place, and all we do is just spinning the circle.

I would like to share my personal idea of making adc's less of a nuisance to ballance. My idea is to take some of adc's offensive scalings, and give them harder and more defining utility or tools for describing their playstyle more instead of raw dmg. Why i speak about utility, when the dmg is the problem ? Well the thing is that all that currently popular adc's (lucian cait tristana etc) compete to the table is damage. The only real calculation to who is better in certain situation, is a comparison of range, dmg self peel and mobility. As far as adc's are so similar in both kits an purpose (Tristana and Cait are 2 sides of the same coin, long range adc, vayne is quite similar to lucian, and all of the popular adcs are made only to deal the dmg ) buffs or nerfs wont change anything, they will just shuffle the deck of what is top atm.

There are champions like Sivir, Varus, Quinn, Ashe and currently tested Kalista who sacrivice some slots for something besides an offense, but riot usualy gutts them ... why ? Because their utility easily pushes out the adcs with only dmg (being draven wont help you when sivir or varus ults), yet those adcs were usualy healthier for the game and enabled more playstyles besides stand behind your team and unload.

I think that adc's who compete something else to the team are far more healthy to ballance, because when they are on the weak side riot has a place to put some power in besides their raw power making them more usefull in their own spot instead of rotating the pool of simple dmg dealers, not to mention that they promote teamplay over selfish hamness.

Let me make a little summary. Pros of utility and special tools in adc's . -They are picked for what they compete to the team instead of the dmg they deal. -They promote teamworks over the babysitter playstyle (the team babysits their adc and tries to get the enemy adc). -They offer more space for ballance decisions.

Cons of diferent adc's. -If made to similar we are back on the starting point (buffs and nerfs shuffle the deck). -They might be overwhelming in certain teamcomps (but hey... we already have loads of oriana ball carrier comps, so i feel free to consider it a good thing, yet i wont list it as a pro). -They might reshape the game. If they wont be the dmg then probalby someone else will take their place (thou autos are the strongest dmg in the game, so no caster nor mage will probably have the same impact as an adc).

21 Comments

xDingwithsalad1 votes

hard to read what you type when you type like this you know what im saying thanks buddy

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

That damn interpunction.

xDingwithsalad2 votes

Just saying, you'll get more people to actually read your stuff when you don't type like you're 7.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Dont worry ... i fix the stuff

Done251 votes

balance*

But yea. Characters who offer just pure damage tend to either not due enough damage to win, or kill you faster than you can kill them. They can't really DO anything else.

Kuroi861 votes

Mobility vs utility, it's a matter of skill.

Can Lucian dash out of the way before Varus' ult hits him, popping the blighted quiver stacks on Lucian?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

mobility vs skillshots you mean also you speak about trades so its not realy relevant to the post (main topic is how to ballance adc's as a class that interacts with other classes in kinda healthy manner)

Kuroi861 votes

Utility= CC, often skill shots. Most of the most popular ADC aren't simply picked for their damage output. It's a mixture of that plus something else. Lucian brings a measure of mobility, wave clear and some lane bullying properties. Cait brings exceptional lane bullying properties to the table with her range and EQ combo. Trist brings a powerful scaling tool to the table as well as a good measure of safety with her jump and ult.

Scaling them back in favor of placing more utility onto ADC would hurt the class as a whole because we're neglecting one of the main purposes of the ADC. Tower pushing. The ADC is the way it is because it's the best class for taking towers and pushing to end the game. Even melee ADC cannot do this without a significant risk to themselves.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Well the thing is that all that currently popular adc's (lucian cait tristana etc) compete to the table is damage. The only real calculation to who is better in certain situation, is a comparison of range, dmg self peel and mobility.

Dude pls read what i write, its not nice when you argue with me, using the arguments that i used in the first place, to prove the point that i already explained.

Scaling them back in favor of placing more utility onto ADC would hurt the class as a whole because we're neglecting one of the main purposes of the ADC. Tower pushing.

Not exactly tower pushing, thout they do it quite good. Adc deals the highest dmg and does not need any form of mana to do it (lifesteal is on top of it), adc's are the best counter to tanks etc etc . When we speak about tower pushing bruisers outclass adc's by farr with their atack empowering skills+ trinity force procs (i speak about what i see in game, bruiser needs less ad and can do it faster than an adc, depends on the champ ofc).

From my point of view it looks like everyone picks adc's just for the dmg and the stuff i already mentioned (and you showed into my face without reading my post, you hurt my feelings), while adc's could compete much more in much healthier/funnier way. look at sivir or varus and even quinn, all of them are the ADC's yet none of them is doing the same stuff as lucian cait or tristana riot's ballance puts those carries on the bottom of their class because whatever utility they have it can easily make a dent twice as big as an adc who has only dmg without making them just dmg dealing bots

Kuroi861 votes

Dude pls read what i write, its not nice when you argue with me, using the arguments that i used in the first place, to prove the point that i already explained.

I did. You think that scaling back the damage on damage oriented ADC and reworking EVERY ADC to being more utility oriented would be a fix all for the class. Which in theory could work. I don't agree with the ideal because it sounds bland but to each their own.

Not exactly tower pushing, thout they do it quite good. Adc deals the highest dmg and does not need any form of mana to do it (lifesteal is on top of it), adc's are the best counter to tanks etc etc .

When they hit their phase of the game yes. Though this is of course in their own realm of damage. ADC' do dps, which other classes can do of course, but it is what ADC' do best. Other classes excell at other forms of damage, such as burst or dot.

When we speak about tower pushing bruisers outclass adc's by farr with their atack empowering skills+ trinity force procs (i speak about what i see in game, bruiser needs less ad and can do it faster than an adc, depends on the champ ofc).

Eh, up to a point yes. Bruisers have better pushing power early, but the ADC out scales them late game. A factor that makes certain marksmen popular as ADC is build in abilities that scale with stacking AD and AS for basic attacks. There are some exceptions to this, but it's one of the strongest tools for the ADC.

From my point of view it looks like everyone picks adc's just for the dmg and the stuff i already mentioned (and you showed into my face without reading my post, you hurt my feelings), while adc's could compete much more in much healthier/funnier way.

That's not Riots fault. That's simply the meta. People want to play certain champs, eliminating them from the game for the name of diversity would just be a terrible idea.

look at sivir or varus and even quinn, all of them are the ADC's yet none of them is doing the same stuff as lucian cait or tristana

Varus is my main ADC, I know what he's capable of. His damage isn't the problem. He's not meta due to the fact that he's low mobility. Sure Varus could use some tweaks to help him synergize better with crit builds, but that's hardly enough to keep him out of pro play.

riot's ballance puts those carries on the bottom of their class because whatever utility they have it can easily make a dent twice as big as an adc who has only dmg without making them just dmg dealing bots

The "dmg dealing bots" are popular due to their mobility or range. Champs like Varus or Quinn CAN best them in lane. It's a match up of skill. People find the dodge button a lot easier to hit than the stun button.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

meta is to pick what is most effective, when sivir got meta we saw those nerfs quite fast i just dont like nerfs that serve the purpose of spinning the wheel, because all we get from this is one op champ after another , or good champs getting useless because riot needs to make their champion pool look diverse (and most of us know that its not true, picks switch but the group always remains quite small)

Kuroi861 votes

Riot only really gets involved when they feel a champ has too much influence on the meta. Lucian and Trist have both seen some tweaks lately, but when was the last time you saw Draven, Cait or Vayne get any real adjustments?

Truthfully, what is most effective changes with every match. When against Lucian, you have certain ADC that are best for countering him. A different set of ADC are best when against Draven. Not to mention supports. The meta is actually a lot bigger than people think. You've got the current top meta picks (which everyone think is it for the meta), and then you've got their counters which can also have a significant effect on the meta.

Now, Riot has stated that they are in support of the meta, as it shows the community feed back (the meta is set up by the players, which to a large degree are led by the pros, many people see what pro' play and believe that those champs are the top picks and thus a meta is formed.) Riot tries not to go throwing nerf sticks unless they feel something stirring in the meta is toxic or overbearing (Old Soraka top, Alistar jungle, ect.)

Even now, Riot is working to try and add more diversity to the jungle. Many jungle tanks were considered bad picks, Riot buffed them. This made no change to the meta, so Riot net out some nerfs to the top jungle champs in the hopes of opening the door for more diversity in the jungle, still no major change. Even now, Riot is looking to completely rework the jungle and adjust countless champs numbers in order to try and add more diversity in the jungle.

Heck the AD itemization change earlier this season was meant to help shake up the ADC role and change things up some. They may do it again this next preseason just to mix things up again. Who knows.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Riot only really gets involved when they feel a champ has too much influence on the meta. Lucian and Trist have both seen some tweaks lately, but when was the last time you saw Draven, Cait or Vayne get any real adjustments?

riot is weird in this way sometimes when something gets in the meta they go ham on the nerfs till that thing gets realy crappy and completly disapears from lcs (sivir got just pushed out, lb talon and other assasins are only touched when they appear in lcs, and i suspect that we will get a rotation of the entire assasins pool because they compete adc killing potential, so one after anotyhet will rise and fall) but there are other times when they say "pros adjusted to it and we dont want to completly change their enviroment" just like they said with tristana maokai and even morgana, in case of maokai it wasnt even long after his op rework (couple weeks and riot stated that pros already assimilated maokai to the fullest and taking him away is equal to removing the core of their picks)

its jst a random factor whether they kill something ot just tell us that they wont touch it

when it comes to jungle i wouldnt blame the jungle itemisatiion but the champion design for death of jungle tanks they lack the tools that would force enemies to focus them, they were popular only because jungle didnt give enough gold for a bruiser to live there(but lets leave the tanks for diferent discussion)

Kuroi861 votes

A lot of champs need tweaking, Riot has a long list of adjustments that they are working on. Many champs end up jumping to the top of that list when they hit pro play because that can have a MASSIVE impact on the meta with people seeing ways that a single champ can be absolutely dominant. Truthfully, Kassadin, LB and Talon might have kept their silence forever if they had never seen pro play.

Comparing assassin' to ADC really isn't fair. An ADC should never win a 1v1 against an assassin without a Major advantage going into the fight. That's just how the classes are made to interact. Trist and Maokai have both seen nerfs this season, yes they are still strong picks, though that isn't so much them being op as these champs synergize insanely well with the strategies that the pros use and can be pretty easily worked around. Morg I never really saw any issue with, people just forgot that bot comps other than all in exist.

You're close but not quite right when it comes to the jungle. It wasn't itemization or design that caused tanks to be pushed down. It's the fact that people discovered that early game duelists (bruisers) could easily counter jungle and gank tank junglers. Let a tank jungler hit his late game and most bruisers will run just as hard as the rest of their team to escape the tank. But the weak point of the tank is his early game, it has to be in order to afford him such a monstrous late game. But that is the risk you take when picking a tank. You acknowledge that you will have little influence early game, your goal is to farm as much as possible as fast as possible and get your items so that you can start being the monster that your team needs to push for victory.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Comparing assassin' to ADC really isn't fair. An ADC should never win a 1v1 against an assassin without a Major advantage going into the fight. That's just how the classes are made to interact.

im not speaking about them soloing eachother assasins will be played in lcs because their role is on demand (dmg dealers are always squishy, assasins counter squishies) as fas as they do their task riot will nerf them (cause no counterplay etc etc) which will only result in lcs picking up the untouched (yet) assasins and just rolls the dice (hence the example of assasins getting nerfed)

discovered that early game duelists (bruisers) could easily counter jungle and gank tank junglers.

its not that assasins are demanded class, its just that lcs playerd discovered that damage dealers are susceptible to burst you can change any argument into anything with this logic tanks dont compete sht so they dont get played, and they cant just get buffed to viability cause they would be plainly op

your goal is to farm as much as possible as fast as possible and get your items so that you can start being the monster that your team needs to push for victory.

i think you confuse a tank with udyr (also tank farms so slowly that he wont get his items fast enough, which makes him a weaker and slower version of a bruiser)

tanks are indeed durable etc and can eat an adc, but tank items alone wont get them enough dmg to not get ingored so they dont soak the dmg as they are supposed to r just get killed by an adc from the backline also when im speaking tanks i exclude braum and maokai since those 2 are actualy working and up to date tanks (oh the memories when i tried to play nautilus top, either ran oom or lost a trade, but i had my fun )

Trist and Maokai have both seen nerfs this season

for maokai those were more of a love taps
trista was rather held untouched till the very end of the championship still riot said that they dont want to nerf them till worlds end and indeed they held tristana quite long with that while maokai was nerfed very slowly

Morg I never really saw any issue with, people just forgot that bot comps other than all in exist

morg recieved the victorious skinn victorious skinns are granted to a champion that was most influencial in the season (thou i agree that i didnt feel her being so powerfull)

A lot of champs need tweaking

unfortunately i think that the list of champions that need tweaking is longer than the list of champions that dont its the heritage of the policy that riot held in the past (2 champs every month, didnt matter how unballanced they were) which made champions unoriginal and competed quite much to the pool shufling nerfs (heca got nerfed? j4 and vi do almoust the same thing so ill play them not, that was s3 mentality and it usualy worked that way )

still im happy at the work riot is doing lately (thou the increasing pace of champion releases scares me a little) they touch the champs making them unique so they arent as suspectible to this mechanic (dice rolling nerfs) yet adc's are kinda lacking here, they arent very versatile,the kits and uses difer quite much but it realy feels like the pool of competetively picked adc's are just those who turned out better at range dmg safety comparison (what i mentioned in my first post)

Kuroi861 votes

assasins will be played in lcs because their role is on demand (dmg dealers are always squishy, assasins counter squishies)

Mages can burst just as hard as assassins, assassins are simply faster and include mobility. While mages bring some level of CC and a lot of AOE damage to the table.

as fas as they do their task riot will nerf them (cause no counterplay etc etc) which will only result in lcs picking up the untouched (yet) assasins and just rolls the dice

It's more than that. Assassin' are tricky to balance because of the very definition of their existence. They are meant to jump in, deal fast burst damage and try to get a kill, then jump out hopefully unscathed. The problem is, most assassins either do this too well, or not nearly well enough.

i think you confuse a tank with udyr (also tank farms so slowly that he wont get his items fast enough)

tanks are indeed durable etc and can eat an adc, but tank items alone wont get them enough dmg to not get ingored so they dont soak the dmg as they are supposed to r just get killed by an adc from the backline also when im speaking tanks i exclude braum and maokai since those 2 are actualy working and up to date tanks

No, I define tanks differently from how you do. A tank brings a few different tricks to a team fight. He brings disruption, giving him the ability to lock down or throw the enemy team into disarray while allowing his team to get off their damage. Others bring a considerable threat level in the damage they deal. Many bring a combination of both. Tanks aren't meant to be the main damage source for their team, they're meant to engage for their team and force the enemy to focus them.

morg can outpoke pokers

Lulu, Lux, Nunu, Orianna, Sona, Soraka, Syndra, Zilean and Zyra would all like a word with you.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Mages can burst just as hard as assassins, assassins are simply faster and include mobility. While mages bring some level of CC and a lot of AOE damage to the table.

mages cant reach the backline and unlike adc's they can go oom or have stuff on cooldowns (so they wont just hit the tank) if a mage would wait in the teamfight to burst the adc he would sit and do nothing most of the time just to have his stuff up when adc comes close exception is oriana ball carrier comp which allows for pinpoint long range burst

The problem is, most assassins either do this too well, or not nearly well enough

the ones who do it too well are the ones who didnt get nerfed already and slowly lcs will pick em up

the ones who dont do it nearly well enough are the nerfed assasins who either rely on snowball that they cant get
or just get removed by zhonyas (zed is the exception because he can splitpush or just use the mark as a gapcloser) because assasins go mid

He brings disruption, giving him the ability to lock down or throw the enemy team into disarray while allowing his team to get off their damage.

But the weak point of the tank is his early game, it has to be in order to afford him such a monstrous late game.

those 2 exclude themselves distruption does not scale with items and if you are distruptive you are definetly not getting a monstrous late game

Tanks aren't meant to be the main damage source for their team, they're meant to engage for their team and force the enemy to focus them.

for me the tank is a bruiser with a tank items or a meele support(yup i totaly neglect the existance of other tanks than the supports and tanky bruisers) usualy they draw the focus by being dangerous (they can dive the enemy adc and enemy team is forced to collapse on them)
whiletank role was always supposed to be the damage soaking class that does not deal dmg ... riot was experimenting with tools to make them work that way but until now they managed to make only braum and mmaokai a working tanks (mao just reduces the incoming dmg wbile braum forcefully takes it on himself)

and why would you focus a guy that cant realy hurt you ... just kill his adc and then finish him off or let your adc ravage him while he tries to peel (if he peels enemiies have no real frontline so i think that adc could just kill the enemy adc or a midder, still tank dies last cause he has nothing that would make you want to kill him first)

Lulu, Lux, Nunu, Orianna, Sona, Soraka, Syndra, Zilean and Zyra would all like a word with you.

compare dodging (morganas q is twice as broad as it looks) and tankynes of those supports, not to mention that you threw here a couple of non supports (syndra, ori, and nunu ) if morgana hits her q and enemy hits her, morgana will usualy come on top of the trade cause she is just tankier (sona soraka and zyra cant take hits, so getting snared is a death sentence) zilean might get angry at the black shield (yeah the wersatility of her kit hits quite hard) speak what you like but the fact that she got the victorious skinn means that she dominated the supportt class this season

Kuroi862 votes

mages cant reach the backline

You hit the nail on the head, this is why assassins took over mid lane from mages.

the ones who do it too well are the ones who didnt get nerfed already and slowly lcs will pick em up

the ones who dont do it nearly well enough are the nerfed assasins who either rely on snowball that they cant get or just get removed by zhonyas (zed is the exception because he can splitpush or just use the mark as a gapcloser) because assasins go mid

Zed is one of the only assassins considered by most to be balanced. He's high risk/high reward. He can crush his opponent, but in return he has to place himself in the line of fire. He has no CC and no damage negation other than dodging skill shots. He gains but a moment of untargetability from his ult. That's it. The rest of his kit is balanced around the skill to see an attack coming and move out of the way.

those 2 exclude themselves distruption does not scale with items and if you are distruptive you are definetly not getting a monstrous late game

Have you seen a late game Nautilus? Not only can he provide enough disruption to send the enemy team into disarray, but he's more than tanky enough to eat every ult on the enemy team and still have some health left to go. His disruption is what makes him a threat. Either they focus him and give his team freedom to go to town, or they TRY and focus his team and he gets carte blanche to jump in the middle of them and lock their team down long enough for his team to go to town.

and why would you focus a guy that cant realy hurt you ...

Because if you don't you won't have the chance to hurt anyone.

compare dodging (morganas q is twice as broad as it looks) and tankynes of those supports, not to mention that you threw here a couple of non supports (syndra, ori, and nunu ) if morgana hits her q and enemy hits her, morgana will usualy come on top of the trade cause she is just tankier (sona soraka and zyra cant take hits, so getting snared is a death sentence) zilean might get angry at the black shield (yeah the wersatility of her kit hits quite hard) speak what you like but the fact that she got the victorious skinn means that she dominated the supportt class this season

They're still listed as supports, secondary, but still supports. And we run into the issue, you don't know what a poke comp is. A good poke comp will never be worried about Morgana hitting her Q. A poke comp is build around an ADC and support with a high degree of ranged poke. Ezreal, Caitlyn, Corki, Kog'Maw, Varus. These ADC excel at this. Combined with the before mentioned supports and they can just sit behind their minions last hitting and throwing random shots at the enemy. Morgana' Q does not go through minions.
Every single support mentioned can poke (a lot more frequently than Morg can throw out Q) from behind minions. Without a jungle camping the bot lane (and leaving top and mid to roll over you lol) or pushing the wave so hard Morg steals half the CS, there's no way Morg can properly get through to be a real threat. FYI, look at the cooldown on Black Shield, compare that with the main poke cooldowns on all of the supports listed. Morg would cry.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Not only can he provide enough disruption to send the enemy team into disarray, but he's more than tanky enough to eat every ult on the enemy team and still have some health left to go.

this one is plainly stupid (sorry for being an ass here but its truth)

why would anyone ult that nautilus he will get his cc off anyway, but there is nothing that would make you hit him instead of his adc (besides stupidity of ppl who play soloq )

you call tanks strong when enemies play to make them so by the same example i can call kata op, cause if my team just does not use cc she will kill us all, but kata's main weakness it to be cc'ed and focused fast while tanks weakness is to be ignored (and this is what happens 90% of the time)

tanks are tanky but they dont have anything that would make this tankyness usefull, THEY GET IGNORED because whatever they have they will use it anyway but then they are just a meat sack walking around the fight

thats why i called braum and maokai the only working tanks ,becuase while they dont compete any damage they are always negating that dmg, while oother tanks just throw out their cc and spectate because whether they tank that dmg is enemys choice.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Not really. If you ignore a tank, he will simply walk to your adc and ensure that they cannot participate in the fight for quite a while.

Tanks like alistar can literally knock mvp's into your team.

New Sion can create a very large window of oppornuity for your team to engage safely.

Many tanks are also excellent at protecting their backline,

Ignoring any member of a team is asking to lose.

Kuroi861 votes

You say ignore the tank. But here's the thing. If said player is good with their champ and knows how to tank. One if not two of the enemy team NEED to focus the tank!

The job of the front line is to initiate, to hold off the enemy and hold the line. The job of the ADC is to attack whoever is the closest to them. Guess who the front line and ADC need to focus?

When it comes to diving past the front line, that typically falls into the realm of mages and assassins to try and accomplish in order to circumvent the front line and go after the ADC.

You say they have nothing to make them useful. Let me put it this way. If you ignore Volibear, you're going to die. If you ignore Nautilus or Leona, you will be CC locked until the enemy team pops you. A tank is not a unit that you can afford to ignore, not when they've hit their late game. If you can just walk past them and ignore them, then you've only played against some terrible tanks that don't know the first thing about being a tank.

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