Can Someone Explain the Philosophy Behind Bruisers/Juggs?

Vekkna··2 votes·1,058 views

Disclaimer: This isn't a QQ thread. Generalizations are generalizations; outliers are outliers. Ex: talking about mage mobility, Syndra and Zyra are typical of the generalization while LeBlanc and Ahri are outliers.

I'm genuinely trying to understand the philosophy behind the champ balance of guys like these:

Volibear Trundle DrMundo Rammus Darius Garen Gnar Shyvana Renekton TahmKench Malphite Nasus Hecarim Shen Nautilus Pantheon Sion Udyr XinZhao JarvanIV

There's a lot of variation there, but the common theme is that they can all kill squishies while building tank. They're also either very fast, have severe slows, or dashes (or a combination). I recently started playing Illaoi and played a lot of Singed before he got hit hard this patch. I would put them into this category as well.

I thought that playing Illaoi would help me understand better, but it ended up reinforcing the feeling that bruisers are simply the strongest class in league. The only time I remotely struggled with in an equal 1v1 was, of course, against a Gnar. In fact, there were multiple times that I caught somebody in a combo and killed them by accident. In other words, I had built so little offense that it didn't even occur to me that the enemy might possibly die. I've literally blurted out "whoa!" or "holy shit!" on occasion after vaporizing an opponent.

Honestly, I just don't understand why tanky fighters do so much damage while having so much effective HP. Mages and assassins typically have around 1/3-1/5 of these guys' EHP, but mages and assassins aren't putting out 3-5x the damage in a combo given equal income.

This comes down to the weaknesses of the different classes. Squishies have to kite, and bruisers have to catch, right? But squishies have to kite or die, and bruisers have to catch or....what? Beyond that, kiting is inherently more mechanically demanding than chasing something down. Landing skillshots on the run, stutterstepping, managing cooldowns, and animation lock are all more difficult than chasing at a high move speed and using your speed boosts and gapclosers on cooldown. In short, the kite/chase paradigm puts squishies at a risk/reward disadvantage while also being much harder to execute in general. Why is balance tipped so heavily towards bruisers? If you disagree, explain why and based on what experience.

Useless Backstory: I started feeling there was an inherent power imbalance between tanky champs and squishy champs around the Devourer patch. I was languishing in low Silver and got tired of every enemy champ being a threat. After having played only mages (and Teemo), I picked up Singed. With all of zero experience playing either a melee or a tank, I went from Silver 4 to Gold 3 series in exactly twenty days and had a Singed win rate of around 70%.

Having reached my goal of Gold in my first season, I decided to branch out and learn two of the coolest champs that I sucked with: LeBlanc and Katarina. Turns out, it's a lot easier to whine about LeBlanc than to play her (ha!). I stuck with Katarina and did really well with her until preseason. Now I'm back down to Silver 2 after, again, playing mages (and one assassin).

So here I am again, stuck in Silver and resigning myself to the fact that I'm going to need to pick up another bruiser to climb back to where I left off with Singed. Not to say that mages aren't capable, just that I'm not good enough with them. But it makes me wonder how I can do worse with mages I've played for hundreds of games than bruisers I'm just picking up for the first time. Maybe I'm just a bruiser prodigy (not likely), or maybe bruisers just have too many inherent advantages at equal skill level (more likely). Why is this the case (if it is), and what is the design philosophy that maintains a balance discrepancy that feels pretty obvious?

TL;DR: What the design philosophy is behind bruisers doing current damage levels while being so difficult to kill. It seem they have the upper hand against the most classes while being the hardest to kill for the most classes. The damage to EHP ratios seem like they're out of proportion, but why?

36 Comments

Verxint6 votes

Low silver and gold players don't know how to kite or space themselves. Tanky fighters are designed to punish your positioning mistakes. Players that can't kite or space properly make positioning mistakes.

On top of that, at lower MMR people don't farm consistently and tend to fight for no reason. Underfarmed carries have a hard time taking down tanky champs, and since they spend so much time fighting instead of farming or getting objectives, they have more interactions with the tanky champ than they should.

Tl;Dr people don't position well and bruisers punish bad positioing.

Also Illoai is probably a touch OP.

Vekkna3 votes

Another thing about Illaoi in my brief experience with her is that she excels at counter-engage, even when behind. In HAM elo the opponent will come to you, bullying when they're ahead and ganking if you're ahead. Almost all of my feeding on Illaoi has been in offensive team fights, and I'm still learning how to navigate those.

Verxint3 votes

Yep that's another symptom of low elo. People think they can kill anyone 1v1, they think anyone low is a free kill.

Like, the amount of greed in low ranks is crazy. One of my friends who was in low silver last season asked me for advice with Irelia, I told him "Literally just play super passive and never fight your opponent. I guarantee the jungler will come towerdive you and give you a free double"

I had meant it partially as a joke, but apparently it did happen to him multiple times every game.

I honestly don't understand low ELO mentality.

BastionKross5 votes

Rammus Malphite Nautilus Shen Sion are all tanks, not bruisers or juggernauts. Their damage comes from high base damages that tend to fall off hard later on in a match. Tanks still need decent damage early on to survive/farm/jungle.

TahmKench is a tank too, once Riot figures out he's doing way too much damage for his role.

Pantheon XinZhao are in the same boat as Fiora Diana Irelia, Riot labels them "diving fighters" and expects them to build mostly damage while relying on their kits to keep them safe. Most players end up having to build them as bruisers if the game goes on long enough, just so they won't die in a quarter of a second once they dive. Riot said this is probably the group that'll get an update next, after immobile mages, since they're really all over the place.

Gnar gets the best of every world, at the expense his transformation is uncontrollable. Good players can make this drawback nearly nonexistent though, and it's on Riot to figure out how to balance that.

The rest have a pretty consistent theme with few outliers: high damage, hard to kill, easily kitable. Yes, they often have some kind of MS boost or slow so they don't get completely annihilated by more mobile champs, but if you've ever tried to kill a Kalista with a Volibear you know that all that power comes at a high price. Your high damage means nothing if you can't catch your target, and your high defense means nothing if you're constantly getting poked down with little room for retaliation. Bruisers, especially juggernauts, are only scary if they can get on top of you and stick to you.

There's a reason why Garen is in every bush; that bush is his gapcloser.

Ralanr1 votes

Your diving fighter definition makes me think that Pantheon needs a slight rework...

BastionKross1 votes

Just about every diving fighter needs a rework. Some more slight than others.

Ralanr4 votes

Well if you're wondering why it seems easy to kill people with them, it's because the ability to kite isn't something a player can pick up right away(aside from Kalista).

If you look at some of the worlds games last season, Darius ended up getting kited a lot in pro play.

Now the game isn't balanced around pro play right? I don't really have an opinion on whether they balance the game around that, but I do believe that Riot does make things with certain strategies in mind for players to understand and adapt.

Illaoi is basically a gateway character to the juggernaut play style. Slow, immobile, high defense and moderate (it seems high when fighting champions that build no defenses) damage. She's weak to kiting because she can't catch the enemy.

The fighter class needs more definition and it's a slow process but it's getting there.

Vekkna1 votes

I think this is probably right. In my experience, a lot of these bruisers are extremely difficult to kite unless you have a lot of CDR and have completed some big items like Luden's or Rylai's. Before late game, it's often pretty futile, and with games ending earlier it seems less probable that point will arrive.

See, when you say Illaoi is slow, it's weird to me. She starts at 340, goes to 365 with basic boots, 385 with T2 boots, and 405 with a Phage proc. After playing a few hundred games on Zyra with her 325 MS, Illaoi feels like she moves at goddam warp speed. And with DMP as part of many bruiser builds, they can all be very fast.

Riot has said they balance for somewhere around Diamond ELO, so maybe you're right that balance just skews towards bruisers at lower levels. In my games as Singed, I can certainly recall a few extremely unpleasant games against very good Ashe, Vayne, and Lux players. Granted, Ashe is something of a kiting outlier, and Vayne is certainly a tank-killing outlier.

Another possibility for why bruisers are better is that they're just more forgiving of mistakes, aside from picking a bad engage. Building tanky makes bad dives and turret shots less risky. You're harder to kill on a gank. You're less likely to die going HAM in the jungle with no vision. There's just less risk posed by bad decisions with more opportunity to punish squishy champs' bad decisions. It adds up to the class being objectively stronger in a lower ELO environment.

If I imagined a game where every mage kited like that Ashe and Lux that gave me hell on Singed, it would make more sense. But that's at least mid Plat, right?

Ralanr1 votes

I consider a champion fast when their T2 boots break 400 MS.

Vekkna1 votes

Isn't that only Yi and several others?

Ralanr1 votes

Idk, I've found myself breaking 400.

Really I don't look at movement speed all that much.

BluePolarizer4 votes

Bruisers are decent to amazing in 1v1 most of the time and they are mostly terrible to mediocre teamfighters.

Sanelis2 votes

You seem to misunderstand the whole concept of building tanky.

If you build tanky you are STRONGER 1v1 than you would be if you were building full damage. The payoff is that you can't burst people down or catch them out.

Of course, if a full tank is 15/0, he deals damage because of levels and the sheer recklessness.

If an ADC has 50 armor, he will evaporate to anything that sneezes at him.

TLDR: The tankier you are, the better you are at 1v1. Bruiser will kill the assassin. Tank will kill the bruiser. Assassin will kill the adc. The only time adc kills someone is because that someone is a Mage or not focusing the adc.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

You seem to misunderstand the whole concept of building tanky.

If you build tanky you are STRONGER 1v1 than you would be if you were building full damage. The payoff is that you can't burst people down or catch them out.

Of course, if a full tank is 15/0, he deals damage because of levels and the sheer recklessness.

If an ADC has 50 armor, he will evaporate to anything that sneezes at him.

TLDR: The tankier you are, the better you are at 1v1. Bruiser will kill the assassin. Tank will kill the bruiser. Assassin will kill the adc. The only time adc kills someone is because that someone is a Mage or not focusing the adc.

This isn't really true. Tanks aren't very good duelists against bruisers, or against melee carries, on average.

BluePolarizer1 votes

depends. Tanks absolutely destroy AD casters that don't have a true damage execute or %HP damage. Rammus and Maokai, for instance, will wreck Hecarim, Wukong, Lee, Pantheon, Riven and the like. Tanks don't do well against autoattackers, even Rammus. Put a Rammus vs. a Jax for instance and he'll still get melted (of course, put a squishy vs. Jax and they'll get evaporated).

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

depends. Tanks absolutely destroy AD casters that don't have a true damage execute or %HP damage. Rammus and Maokai, for instance, will wreck Hecarim, Wukong, Lee, Pantheon, Riven and the like. Tanks don't do well against autoattackers, even Rammus. Put a Rammus vs. a Jax for instance and he'll still get melted (of course, put a squishy vs. Jax and they'll get evaporated).

I'd consider Rammus and Maokai possible outliers as far as tanks are concerned, to be honest, since they have tools that make them a lot better at dueling than most other tanks I can think of (Rammus' E and R, and Mao's R).

With Wukong I've never really had any trouble with most tanks in a 1v1 even past laning phase, since he has better sustained damage than most AD casters due to his attack speed steroid, as well as his armour shred from his Q. I've never tried to duel a Rammus or Maokai though, and since there's no sandbox mode I'll probably never try it.

And yeah, I'm aware that sustained damage fighters like Jax, Tryndamere, or Yi melt kill tanks. Those guys are what I think of when I say "melee carries".

Critmaster Garen2 votes

i could really get into detail about this, but ill keep it as short as possible.

first and fore most the general high damage of fighters is somewhat of an illusion. it comes from a combination of

a) mages and marksmen usually not building any real defensive itemization at all. so its not surprising that the base damage of a fighter or tank can cut through the base defenses of an adc. if you dont build any defense at all, then there would be something wrong if they couldnt kill you in one ability rotation with just 1 or 2 damage items.

b) fighters deal attrition based damage in melee. they do in fact not nearly deal the same dps as an adc. however the fact that they build more durable and generally simply live longer means they deal about the same damage over the course of a fight. unless the marksman doesnt get caught out. if he lives through, he will have significntly more impact as a fighter

then there is the thing that fighters dont have the freedom of positioning that ranged characters like mages or marksmen have. any time a fighter wants to do anything, he has to put himself into a position where his opponent can deal damage to him aswell. the same is not true for adc or mages who can fling spells or auto attacks from a position where theyre not taking any damage in return.

this doesnt just include being in attack range of a single enemies auto attacks and abilities, but also the need to be able to sit in the aoe abilities of the enemy mage, and support. basically the only way you can actually fight as a fighter is to be sitting between multiple opponents and eat their damage.

think about how a marksman can shoot a kennen or galio while sitting outside the range of his ult (yes, a lot of marksman can actually shoot galio from outside the aoe effect without walking into it). well, a melee cant do that.

now why are juggernauts as low mobility fighters more tanky in specific? because its a matter of power budget. they dont have hard engage and mobility like certain other fighters. for example jax, irelia or vi. they usually need the assistance of their team to get in a spot where theyre effective, while other fighters and especially assassins can do this on their own. theyre more easily kitable which causes them usually to eat more damage before theyre at their target. and they have it much harder to get out of a fight again. so to offset that, they get to be more beefy.

Sanelis2 votes

Yes they are. Tank with 1 damage item and full tank will beat enemy going full dmg 100% of the time, unless the opponent is specifically designed to kill tanks. (Vayne, Yasuo)

Do an experiment. Get a friend, pick the same melee champion, then you go 1 dmg item then tank, he goes full dmg.

You ARE going to beat him in a slapfight unless he builds very anti-tanky. (Master Yi's on hits for example)

AlwaysByMySide3 votes

{quoted}

Yes they are. Tank with 1 damage item and full tank will beat enemy going full dmg 100% of the time, unless the opponent is specifically designed to kill tanks. (Vayne, Yasuo)

Do an experiment. Get a friend, pick the same melee champion, then you go 1 dmg item then tank, he goes full dmg.

You ARE going to beat him in a slapfight unless he builds very anti-tanky. (Master Yi's on hits for example)

Every single melee carry has the tools to kill tanks, and has innate survival mechanisms to allow them to take damage.

I don't need to try it out because I know the answer. Most tanks aren't particularly amazing duelists (Malphite is really good though, as is Shen).

AyRe CoNteMpT1 votes

its because not everyone wants to play cancer assassins or mages. some people just want to fight.

ThePartyLeader1 votes

Something on the order of. Assassins beat carries Carries beat tanks Tanks beat assassins.

But in order to have diversity you end up with hybrid role champions such as supports, bruisers, ect that don't fit into the main classes.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly it's always bugged me that tanks counter assassins. Not in the sense that tanks are meant to deal with their burst, but rather that the assassin will just run away afterwards or just not choose to use their abilities on you. Because tanks (primary tanks) don't really deal damage, they cannot kill an assassin but rather lock them down in the hopes that their allies will kill them.

Idk. I guess I keep thinking that in a 1v1 scenario, an assassin will beat a tank because they just need to survive long enough to use their burst multiple times (which is why I hate thunderlords as extra burst is frustrating to deal with). Unless the tank has some innate sustain (which I think is more of a juggernaut thing) then they aren't going to survive the second burst.

Maybe I'm just salty in how I can't seem to tank against Leblanc.

ThePartyLeader1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly it's always bugged me that tanks counter assassins. Not in the sense that tanks are meant to deal with their burst, but rather that the assassin will just run away afterwards or just not choose to use their abilities on you. Because tanks (primary tanks) don't really deal damage, they cannot kill an assassin but rather lock them down in the hopes that their allies will kill them.

Idk. I guess I keep thinking that in a 1v1 scenario, an assassin will beat a tank because they just need to survive long enough to use their burst multiple times (which is why I hate thunderlords as extra burst is frustrating to deal with). Unless the tank has some innate sustain (which I think is more of a juggernaut thing) then they aren't going to survive the second burst.

Maybe I'm just salty in how I can't seem to tank against Leblanc.

I think a lot of it is the cc they bring to a teamfight more so than they 1v1 assassins. Such as if rammus just taunts kat when she starts her ult. She is probably dead and had accomplished nothing in the fight.

Ralanr1 votes

It pretty much is the CC. Tanks are one of -- if not the most -- team reliant champions in the game.

Vekkna1 votes

I can't tell you how many times Malphite has built Abyssal into full tank and done 1-1.5k damage to me in under 2 seconds.

Ralanr1 votes

Well who let him get the farm for full tank and abyssal ?

Vekkna1 votes

When the hybrid role champions end up being tank-carries and tank-assassins, what's the point of playing a mage carry or assassin? ADCs at least have a niche for ranged structure damage.

But you have champs like Tahm outdamaging mages in sustained damage and champs like Lee and Xin who straight up obliterate squishies as efficiently as most assassins.

Right now it feels like the order is this: Assassins beat carries Tanks beat everything Carries and a team beat tanks

Ralanr1 votes

Tank assassins?

Vekkna1 votes

Sort of, in a hybrid sense. They're definitely not pure assassins in the sense that they're invisible like Talon, teleporting around like Zed or LeBlanc, or deleting you without cc like Diana.

But there are some tanky bruisers who have the "feel" of assassinating squishies because you just don't have the chance to fight back or escape. Xin and Lee were my examples because they can dash in, put out a lot of damage quickly, cc you while doing it, and if you survive you aren't likely to kill them. Lee especially with his Q through jungle walls and that nonsense.

Or if a Garen gets to you and does his Q, spin, ult. These guys put out enough damage to kill squishies at close to assassin speed without much hope of survival.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} Or if a Garen gets to you

you have a lot more options before that happens than you have against assassins or mages. and even then, juggs are easier to peel for your support or tank.

Vekkna1 votes

That's true, but that goes back to my original point that it's far less rewarding and far more difficult to kite Garen than for Garen to just chase you. That's where things seem skewed after playing both sides of those fights. It's not like getting to a turret means you're safe.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

When the hybrid role champions end up being tank-carries and tank-assassins, what's the point of playing a mage carry or assassin? ADCs at least have a niche for ranged structure damage.

But you have champs like Tahm outdamaging mages in sustained damage and champs like Lee and Xin who straight up obliterate squishies as efficiently as most assassins.

Right now it feels like the order is this: Assassins beat carries Tanks beat everything Carries and a team beat tanks

the point of mages is to blow up priority targets like ad carries without putting themselves at risk. think how a lot of mages can blow up a squishy from outside his vision range.

if they cant kill a target, theyre usually loaded with utility and act as second supports. still effective from range.

they can also easily defend turrets by waveclearing from a distance.

the point of assassins is to be able to jump on a target that would be difficult to reach for someone like garen or darius and kill him in a split second without warning.

garen and darius cant just jump over a wall like talon, zed or fizz can and blow up a squishy, then get out.

their engages are a lot more telegraphed than those of an assassin.

ThePartyLeader1 votes

{quoted}

When the hybrid role champions end up being tank-carries and tank-assassins, what's the point of playing a mage carry or assassin? ADCs at least have a niche for ranged structure damage.

But you have champs like Tahm outdamaging mages in sustained damage and champs like Lee and Xin who straight up obliterate squishies as efficiently as most assassins.

Right now it feels like the order is this: Assassins beat carries Tanks beat everything Carries and a team beat tanks

Lee and xin are assassins if built full damage. Assassins are good now during this more snowbally meta, in consequence that makes carries worse and tanks better. You also have to only look at recent data not pre tank mastery tree nerfs.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

Bruisers excel in a 1v1 beyond all other types of champion save melee carries (Tryndamere, Fiora, Yi, etc.).

On average, most bruisers will beat most assassins, tanks, adcs, and mages one on one.

Quepha1 votes

Their mobility is so-so given their melee range so they're very kitable. A lot of adcs can even kite them solo without help from their team.

Fat Bastard GOD1 votes

So when the big fatties of the tank meta were around (Sejuani, Nautilus, Maokai, Sion) packing boatloads of CC and being extremely tanky, Riot probably found it a bit toxic or unfun. Or perhaps they wanted a change...

This is where Juggernauts/Bruisers come in. They are like the CC tanks, but instead of lots of CC they bring tons of damage. Tons of it. Riot wants these guys to be highly rewarded for getting upclose and personal, being able to build full tank and still deal tons of damage. The juggernauts and bruisers are prone/weak to kiting, but are sticky whenever they reach their target. Most of these guys build around Black Cleaver/Trinity for tankiness and a good mix of damage. Again, 1200 true damage chainable nukes on a full tank with the biggest AD steroid in the game is ridiculous. But hey, Sejuani has an AoE ult that can stun entire teams which is enough to win just about any teamfight.

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