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League is no longer a MOBA, It is now a Fighting game with Moba tactics mixed in

MuffledGarbage··11 votes·1,848 views

Hello and welcome to the thread, I am the garbage beyond garbage and let's discuss how league of legends has changed.

I believe that through the changes that have been implemented by Riot from the rune system, League of legends has been transformed into a fighting game. Similarities:

TL;DR: League has become a fighting game with extra steps cause damage is way too high

--Both types of games make players have an emphasis on killing the opponent better/faster than the opponent is killing you (Combos, spacing, cancels, special moves, super meter in fighting games; Ability spam in league)

--Defensive steriods are EXTREEMLY highly valued in both games due to the giant amounts of damage In BlazBlue, Iron Tager has a higher healthpool than most characters to make up for his lack of a dash/engage; In Pokken tournament, Machamp has a higher healthpool and more defensive abilities than other characters which is the ONLY thing that keeps him viable; Tanks are good in league because they can stop damage output AND use defensive steroids that effectively make their health tripled

--Choosing the wrong supporting buffs can absolutely destroy a character from good to trash tier while other characters don't care at all about supporting buffs **In Marvel vs Capcom infinite, choosing the wrong infinity stone buff can drastically hurt characters who would otherwise be awful without them, A.K.A Good luck playing Ghost Rider; In Skullgirls. choosing a team with bad support synergy can cost someone the game; In Pokken tournament, Choosing the wrong support pokemon can leave characters like Genar, Blaziken, Lucario, and Groagunk unable to win against other characters; In League, Choosing the wrong runes can and WILL cause people to lose matches. If a Riven Accidentally takes the Guardian keystone, She is almost Garunteed to lose toplane to a tank, buiser, or Quinn/Vayne **

--Using the wrong character can make it impossible to win a match In street figher IV an expert Dhalsim player is NEVER going to beat an expert Dan player because of Dan's insanely good movement options and safe defensive steroids; In League using a Wukong against a Tank toplane will almost garuntee a lost lane. Can the Wukong player win lane? Sure but the longer the game goes on, the less likely the Wukong is to win the game AND due to the amount of steroids possible for tanks to have such as aftershock the fact that the character picked for toplane was Wukong will inevitably lose the game because the enemy team picked a tank

--League has a "Neutral" that affects how characters CAN fight Now to go into what a "Neutral" IS for those who are strict MOBA players: A "Neutral" is the state of both characters having no specific large advantage(health, position, support buffs) and both players work to gain the advantages necessary to beat the other person. Every fighting game has a way that thier neutral works differently from other fighting games. In BlazBlue, the Neutral is: first person to get a stray hit and convert to a combo is 70% more likely to win the game; In Super Smash brothers, the Neutral is: the amount of stage possible to manupilate at once; In Pokken Tournament, The neutral is: who gets the first combo move out

Please leave a comment down below on your thoughts on League of Legend's new classification as a fighting game!!!

25 Comments

Anatera7 votes

Welcome to what happens when you attempt to cater to Call of Duty players with a game who's foundation was built on something completely different.

Jamaree4 votes

Seeing as you can win a game with zero kills, that already makes this false.

MuffledGarbage3 votes

There are fighting games you can win with Zero kills too [sg-lulu]

Jamaree2 votes

{quoted}

There are fighting games you can win with Zero kills too [sg-lulu]

You at least have to do one pip of damage.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Naw, naw see we got super smash brothers and Soul Calibur. In Both games(Game series for Soul Calibur) there are characters who use wind in their fighting moves to push other characters away without hurting them.

Also in both games are the ability to die by falling off of the main stage/platform.

Generally it's never gonna happen against a good player BUT it's still possible lol.

redniwediS3 votes

The day I get a combo breaker during the lane phase is the day I'll agree with you. MOBA stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, and I think even though League is changing it is still well within that description.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

I'd classify hard CC as combo breakers.

Too bad most of the combo breakers are on super defensive steroid champs who don't need a combo breaker in the first place(tanks)

chipndip12 votes

"Damage is so high the genre changed"

Why do you people ask to be taken seriously?

MuffledGarbage1 votes

That's the TL;DR.

It's a basic overview but doesn't give all the info that you would have gotten by reading the actual post.

So the best way to look smart is to actually read all the non-TL;DR section.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

That's the TL;DR.

It's a basic overview but doesn't give all the info that you would have gotten by reading the actual post.

So the best way to look smart is to actually read all the non-TL;DR section.

Your supporting arguments are also shallow at best. Like, where do people like you get off with such poorly guided comparisons?

MuffledGarbage1 votes

What makes them shallow?

Do explain so I can more properly support my argument.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

What makes them shallow?

Do explain so I can more properly support my argument.

  • You labeled supporting characters in Skullgirls as "Supportive buffs". Support characters in any fighting game aren't "buffs".

  • You labeled defensive moves/mechanics in fighting games as "defensive steroids". A counter-attack isn't a steroid. A parry isn't a steroid. Blocking isn't a steroid. Having more max hp than other characters isn't a steroid. A defensive steroid...would be a fucking defensive buff.

  • There are TONS of games where using the wrong character loses you the match. That isn't a fighting game thing.

  • Getting piled on by abilities in League has extremely little in common with timing combos in a fighting game.

  • "Neutral game" as a concept is just "the point in a game where no one has the upper hand". A game like Pokemon has a "neutral game" in every match. It's not a fighting game.

  • The amount of damage in League doesn't magically change its genre.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

The supportive buffs was a whole section. Under that section was the Skullgirls support attack button. I didn't call the Support characters buffs specifically. A support buff is a form of Extra help that can be called in to add to a stat. In the case of Skullgirls that is more damage/safety frames for unsafe moves.

Defensive moves and mechanics in fighting games lower damage taken. As a result of damage taken being a lower value than it otherwise would have, it can be considered a defensive steroid/buff. Having more max HP than another character might not be a specific steroid BUT it's still a stat-change that affects the outcome of a match DRASTICALLY.

In a large majority of fighting games, Bad matchups can be overcomed by certain moves. An example is in Soul Calibur 5: The character Ezio Auditore makes his way in-to the roster of SCV. His weaknesses are his short range and a lack of safe combo starters. As a result, he has horrible matchups against mid-longrange characters whom have giant swords, safe combo starters, etc. That can all be overcame by his fast frame data and his good defensive moves.

I'll give you that "Neutral" is when nobody has an EXTREEME upper-hand. However, Fighting game's have a different "Neutral" than what a Turn-Based game such as Pokémon has. League's Neutral game resembles that of a Fighting game due to the way that players have three main options:

--Force opponent into a "corner"(Jungler comes to gank)

--Poke at the opponent

--Do a full combo on the opponent

A Professional BlazBlu player might say: "try to force your opponent into a corner" whilst another will say "Poke them down when they are at low health" and neither player is wrong nor right because of the different characters and 30 or so decisions that go into playing a "Neutral"

For Pokémon the "Neutral" ONLY exists for the first turn of the game due to the "Setup" Pokémon that usually go first in order to buff allies, sabotage enemies, etc. OR conversely the "Setup Sweeper" Pokémon that want to get a win-condition by having enough damage to kill the entire enemy team with one move

For SMITE: The "Neutral" exists when two players(both enemies) are even in gold, XP, and are positioned in a way that neither can effectively poke. In SMITE the "Neutral" is won by successfully pulling off a Crowd control on a Key enemy target and eliminating said target while the target is under CC

These three different forms of Neutral are key to understanding how League's "Neutral" is more that of a fighting game than other MOBA's!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCPC202uwR4

This video is a good indicator and will help anyone to understand more of the concept of a "Neutral"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL-cLKa_NRs

Here's another video that will help demonstrate how defensive steroids can be good for a game

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

The supportive buffs was a whole section. Under that section was the Skullgirls support attack button. I didn't call the Support characters buffs specifically. A support buff is a form of Extra help that can be called in to add to a stat. In the case of Skullgirls that is more damage/safety frames for unsafe moves.

Attack frames aren't buffs. League also has frames. Someone's attack frames/hitboxes aren't considered "buffs" in League.

Defensive moves and mechanics in fighting games lower damage taken.

Who the hell cares? A buff in a game is based on numbers, not mechanics. Blocking a move isn't the same as buffing for an incoming move. A parry isn't the same as just buffing.

In a large majority of fighting games, Bad matchups can be overcomed by certain moves. An example is in Soul Calibur 5: The character Ezio Auditore makes his way in-to the roster of SCV. His weaknesses are his short range and a lack of safe combo starters. As a result, he has horrible matchups against mid-longrange characters whom have giant swords, safe combo starters, etc. That can all be overcame by his fast frame data and his good defensive moves.

No, in fighting games, bad match-ups are confirmed based on the moves two characters have. How bad a match-up is by degrees is based on how many ways you have around a generally bad match-up. ANY GAME has bad match-ups, and this isn't exclusive to fighting games. Pick a fast vehicle in a racing game on a course with a ton of twists and turns, and you fly off course or sacrifice a ton of speed just staying on it. Pick a vehicle designed for turns on a stage where there aren't many, and you get outpaced by people that chose faster vehicles than you. Match-ups persist in nearly any competitive genre...and even others beyond that, like strategy and RPG games.

I'll give you that "Neutral" is when nobody has an EXTREEME upper-hand. However, Fighting game's have a different "Neutral" than what a Turn-Based game such as Pokémon has.

No one cares. The general concept of a neutral game isn't specific to any genre, and depending on the game, it's varies VASTLY. What type of comparison is "backing someone into a corner"? The very fact that junglers even exist puts a huge wedge in your "argument". You think fighting games have a third party that can just up and decide to walk into the game and just turn the game into a 2v1? And before you try to relate that to support characters: No, it's not the same thing.

For Pokémon the "Neutral" ONLY exists for the first turn of the game

Well, that's just blatantly untrue.

For SMITE: The "Neutral" exists when two players(both enemies) are even in gold, XP, and are positioned in a way that neither can effectively poke. In SMITE the "Neutral" is won by successfully pulling off a Crowd control on a Key enemy target and eliminating said target while the target is under CC

How you manage to type this and then say League is closer to fucking Blazblue over this is beyond me.

Here's another video that will help demonstrate how defensive steroids can be good for a game

BLOCKING IS NOT A FUCKING DEFENSIVE STEROID.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Having more or less frames that an Attack is out is indeed a buff.

If I am using the most unsafe character in a fighting game BUT I have a support to call in that makes one of my moves safe, it is an effective buff towards me.

There are fighting games in which taking damage can be beneficial(Super smash brothers has the "Rage" mechanic, Soul Calibur and Tekken have the "Comback kid" extra damage mechanic, PLUS there are characters whom damage themselves in order to gain a different advantage) so that's why you should care about blocking being an effective Defensive buff/steroid.

In the Soul Calibur Series of games there is a mechanic known as a "just guard" where if someone blocks an attack 2 frames before it would hit, the blocker gets to come out of the blocking animation faster. This means that blocking in this situation IS a defensive steroid(I've been told Street fighter has similar mechanics but I am not informed enough to justify using them as examples).

Since you've disregarded "Neutral" as being different for every game genre, I must ask you then, what IS a neutral?

According to you all "Neutrals" are the same for each game...

SMITE's Neutral is hardly close to League's. Most characters in Smite need to hit all their abilities and spend WAY more time when fighting compared to League. The combat is "Neutral" based but since according to you, "Neutrals" are the same for every game that doesn't matter, now does it?

The video I showed demonstrated that blocking by itself isn't a defensive steroid but the things that can't be done during certain types of blocks CAN be considered defensive steroids.

A good example of this is Soul Calibur 2's "Step Guard" mechanic.

In the Soul Calibur series, characters can move in 8 directions, attack horizontally(stopping horizontal movement), or attack vertically(causing either horizontal movement, a block, a step-guard or a just guard).

The different three forms of blocking include the normal block, The step-guard(When a character moves horizontally and can block) which has slightly less block animation frames than normal blocking, or the just guard(When a player blocks 2 frames before an attack would otherwise hit them) which makes the blocking player come out of the block animation almost instantly with their next attack.

The step-guard and the just-guard are defensive steroids because they are HUGE advantages over the normal block.

Because those two types of blocking are advantages over the normal block with no disadvantages, that makes them defensive steroids.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Having more or less frames that an Attack is out is indeed a buff.

We're done here. Don't respond to me. Bye.

Śhunpo2 votes

Yeah man. I can pick Terumi all I want, I'll never beat a good Nine player.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Honestly that's why I picked up Valkenhayn, so I could have like two bad matchups and even then they are perfectly winnable. Good luck with your Terumi V Nine matchup RIP

Jamaree1 votes

They have things in common, but saying LoL is a fighting game just because of that is like saying Mass Effect is a turn based RPG just because it has RPG elements.

{quoted}

They have things in common, but saying LoL is a fighting game just because of that is like saying Mass Effect is a turn based RPG just because it has RPG elements.

--Using the wrong character can make it impossible to win a match In street figher IV an expert Dhalsim player is NEVER going to beat an expert Dan player because of Dan's insanely good movement options and safe defensive steroids; In League using a Wukong against a Tank toplane will almost garuntee a lost lane. Can the Wukong player win lane? Sure but the longer the game goes on, the less likely the Wukong is to win the game AND due to the amount of steroids possible for tanks to have such as aftershock the fact that the character picked for toplane was Wukong will inevitably lose the game because the enemy team picked a tank

Yeah, it is called playing into the right match up and counterpicks, literally every game is like this not just fighting games, Pokemon has been running with this since the 90s, is Pokemon a fighting game?

MuffledGarbage1 votes

The first argument you made is solid, I'll give you that!!!

However, the Genre of a game is usually defined by what traits most stick out, what the developers intended, and what players decide to play the game as.

As such League has more traits stand out that are of a fighting game than it does with other MOBA games.

That's mostly where I made my claim and went off to support it as much as possible.

In Pokémon, Even in generation one it was possible for Pokémon to learn moves that are super-effective against their elemental weakness. This was a crucial part of the meta and still IS a crucial part to using certain Pokémon.

A Pokémon which is supposed to lose a fight such as: Garchomp against Fast- Ice types can use the move "Earthquake" and the item" Focus sash" to allow him to ALMOST die at 1 HP and DESTROY the faster ice types(who are usually squishy to boot)

In league, the tools that are SUPPOSED to be good against tanks, are almost always better against Squishy targets(The exception being item 3036 and item 3033 ) which leaves Tanks too strong due to their defensive stats and steroids being super high.

This in turn goes into my second point from the OP, Defensive steroids are INSANELY valuable right now due to the amount of damage in the game being heightened to a state of "One combo and you have a 70% chance of winning" in certain lanes.

In midlane, If a Zed player is fighting a Veigar player And both players have one item completed, a half combo will leave the other person(applies to both of them) at 50%-ish health.

In Fighting games a Half-combo done will leave enemy characters at 50%-ish health(depending on fighting game)

I drew the comparisons and the lines between the two Genres and how League seems to fit more into a Fighting game Category rather than a MOBA type game.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

In Pokémon, Even in generation one it was possible for Pokémon to learn moves that are super-effective against their elemental weakness. This was a crucial part of the meta and still IS a crucial part to using certain Pokémon.

A Pokémon which is supposed to lose a fight such as: Garchomp against Fast- Ice types can use the move "Earthquake" and the item" Focus sash" to allow him to ALMOST die at 1 HP and DESTROY the faster ice types(who are usually squishy to boot)

Ok, by that logic, then Pokemon is a fighting game, as there are reads, good and bad match ups, certain moves you can and can't use at certain time and on certain characters.

In league, the tools that are SUPPOSED to be good against tanks, are almost always better against Squishy targets(The exception being item 3036 and item 3033 ) which leaves Tanks too strong due to their defensive stats and steroids being super high.

This in turn goes into my second point from the OP, Defensive steroids are INSANELY valuable right now due to the amount of damage in the game being heightened to a state of "One combo and you have a 70% chance of winning" in certain lanes.

In midlane, If a Zed player is fighting a Veigar player And both players have one item completed, a half combo will leave the other person(applies to both of them) at 50%-ish health.

So then every single game that has life bars, different character types, increases and decreases in stats, and such makes them fighting games. Ok, then CoD is a fighting game.

MuffledGarbage1 votes

Pokémon is a turn-based fighting game and CoD is a fighting game with guns Kappa

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Pokémon is a turn-based fighting game and CoD is a fighting game with guns Kappa

Yup.

Baron Barian1 votes

So....Battlerite?

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